Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: Tom I. on April 07, 2007, 01:08:00 PM
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According to my catalog disc, the wood riser take-downs were only offered from 1969 thru 1972. Is this correct? After 1972 they are only shown with the metal risers. But I've recently purchase a "B" riser that is stated to be from the 1980"s.
When did Bear start making the wood risers again?
Did the risers in the 80's differ in composition from year to year, like the original Super Kodiaks? Is there a way to date the risers?
Thanks
Tom I.
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to the best of my Knowledge, the Bear wooden takedowns were available in 1970 and 1971, with only a few made in 1972. Then the B handle was re-introduced in 1980 in the future wood material with the green stripe. It is generally agreed to by most collectors that the type I handles were made in 1970 and the type II was made in 1971. I know of no way to really accurately date the b handles made in Gainsville. Good luck!
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/biggriz61/takedowns.jpg)
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Hi Chuck,
Thanks for the reply. That's a beautiful collection! My B riser has the green stripe, silver colored medallion (surface mounted) stabilizer threaded insert and a threaded insert in the left side of the riser, just above the location of the stabilizer insert. I assume it's for a quiver mount. Is your B green striped riser the same? Was the green stripe only used in 1980?
If so that sure makes it easy to date. I'd like a set of limbs for it.....can you help?
Thanks
Tom I.
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Could someone list the various package bow lengths considering the A, B & C risers with the numbers 1, 2 & 3 limbs?
Thanks,
Dave
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A riser: #1 limbs = 56" AMO
#2 limbs = 58" AMO
#3 Limbs = 60" AMO
B riser: #1 Limbs = 60" AMO
#2 Limbs = 62" AMO
#3 Limbs = 64" AMO
C riser: #1 Limbs = 66" AMO
#2 Limbs = 68" AMO
#3 Limbs = 70" AMO
Above according to 1971 Catalog
Tom I.
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Thanks Tom
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Hi Tom,
The green stripe was made for several years, not sure for exactly how long, I have a b handle made in 2001 that has a brown(natural) stripe. Limbs are usually available on-line, limbs with green tips would be from the period as your handle. they are good shooting limb but not fast-flight compatible.
Here are some of the bows I am shooting up here right now....
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/biggriz61/takedowns006.jpg)
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I found this image on www.archeryhistory.com (http://www.archeryhistory.com) . It's apparently a catalog pic from the 1894 catalog.
There appears to be a green stripe in the riser in the Custom Kodiak TD.
The labeling reads; left to right:
"Laminated Wood Handle Secret Futurewood Process".
"Monogroove Alignment keyway for positive limb fit"
"Changing limb weight is a breeze"
"Fascor Powered Laminated Limbs"
Doesn't tell us a lot, but another clue.
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i156/win1885-1/bear84.jpg)
Chuck...in the first picture above...isn't the bottom riser a 1980's B with the green stripe?
Tom I.
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Hi Tom,
Yes that is the green stripe B riser, the only year the long bow limbs were available was 1984. The green stripe B riser can be be found on-line for sale on E-bay fairly regularly as well as the limbs. I sold off most of mine prior to moving to Alaska.
good luck!
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Chuck....
I was fortunate enough to win the bid on a green stripe B riser a week or so ago. Which is what promted this discussion. Interestly, immediately after the auction, the back bidder contacted me and offered more than double what I paid. It's a pretty nice riser, I think, and it's serial number is S2963. The latches appear to work correctly and there are no major dings, gouges or scratches. At some time, someone spray camo paint on it but most all has been removed. You can see traces on one latch and in the recesses
between the latch and riser. Most of it came of with fingernail scratching, without marring the riser. So, once I get some limbs, it'll be a shooter. I personally think the Fred out did himself when he came up with this design for a takedown. Not only are they beautiful, but they're practical and so easy to takedown and assemble. I've heard people object to the aesthetics of the latching system, but in my mind it's far better looking than a bolt.
Tom I.
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Hi Tom,
Be careful with "out of E-bay" transactions with individuals you do not know. Why wouldn't the guy have bid more it he thought it was worth so much more than what you paid? Smells like yesterdays diapers to me... glad you held on to the riser. Your serial should be B2963 not S or at least I have never seen an S on a B handle before. Try a little laquer thinnner on a q-tip to remove the last of the paint, shouldn't hurt the factory finish any. Look for a crack in the riser, usually on the upper end right at the apex of the corner of the latch towards the back side, it is common for to find those in b handles from that era. I can post a pic tonight of the area I am talking about when I get home if this is confusing. Yes, I think they are the best designed take down I have seen yet! Not sure I want to shell out $1,300 for a new Heritage series B handle though.... I would like to actually see one of those first.
good luck,
chuck
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CHuck...
My typo....yes it's B-2963...
I'm not exactly sure where you are directing me to look for a crack, but I've examined every area around the latches and don't see any...thankfully.
Do you know how the latch bases are attached to the wood? They're not held in place with any machanical fastner that I can see. I suspect some sort of epoxy.
Yes, I saw the Heritage series on the Bear Archery web site....they're beautiful...but, like you, I think I'd like to examine one before shelling out that kind of money. There is one other takedown bow out there that I would consider but it has bolt on limbs. Their profile is very similar to the Super Kodiak's. They're called "Predator" and can be seen at www.huntersniche.com (http://www.huntersniche.com) . I think they're quite attractive and look like good shooters, and they're priced more reasonably...at least, I think so....
Tom I.
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Tom; what weight limbs would you be looking for your B riser. I have a few used sets of both MI, fl. Larry
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Larry.....
I think I'd like something in the 45 lb range. I can't handle more. I love #3's but may be interest in anything else you may have...ie #1's or 2's.
Thanks
Tom
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Chuck...please email me at [email protected] I just heard from that guy again....
Thanks
Tom
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Tom Have a set of #3's that are 48# on the B riser. 64" leight. Black glass red tips . Would rate them 9 1/2 out of 10. I have the guarantee card to go with them from 2-14-74. Also have a very nice set of white number 1's that would be 39# on the B riser and make up a 60" bow. I shot this set in league for a few years. Still have the styrafoam box with the info on it. You can email me at [email protected] and I can send some pictures to you if you have any interest in the. Larry
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Alaskabowhunter: The first series of ‘B’ risers from Gainesville only had one quiver insert on the lower part of the riser. The next series came out with two inserts top and bottom for quiver mounting. These Gainesville risers came out at the time that the Fred Bear Signature bow was introduced.....My thinking is that these Gainesville risers are going to be the next collectables since there are so few of the original Grayling "A" & "B" around....
just my 2 cents
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Mooseran,
I've heard that there were "thin" and "thick" gainesville risers and the thin weremore desriabvle. Any knowledge on that?
BTW- The Predator bows are VERY nice shooters.
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The riser are made like plywood. The 80's had thicker pieces of wood the newer ones are thinner layers. You can see the difference by the pattern in the riser.
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I guess I should have clarified that question. The difference I had heard about was in the 80's. Something like 80-82 was one config and after that they were the other.
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Moooseran,
are you able to tell the age of a riser by serial-#? I always thought mine to be from the 1990th but was never sure of what excact year. The serial is written in gold to the left side and says TDH-265. Any idea?
(http://www.broadheads.de/Bilder/Foren/TradGang/Cabron0701_03.jpg)
(http://www.broadheads.de/Bilder/Foren/TradGang/Cabron0701_07.jpg)
The pics are showing my bow "Cabrón" with #3-limbs attached (Grayling, Fascor, red tips, 68#) and a pair of self-camoed #2B-limbs (Gainesville, green tips, 70#).
Thanks, Falk
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That's what I call the newer style with thinner layers of wood.The pattern is tighter. It dosen't have the cheap compass so would I guess that it's 1998 or so.
I have two the same way, no compass and I think I bought them a year or 2 before "Anderson Archery"
in Michigan closed up around 96 or 97 can't remember exactly.
Very strong riser. One thing on these risers, the black facing and backing is fiberglass where on the early Grayling and Gainesville it's some thing else not sure what but don't try to polish the stuff on a wheel you'll burn right through it. A friend tried it and ruined his riser...................
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Dan, I can't tell any difference in the early 80's from the 3 I have. They all look and feel the same. Exception would be the quvier insert and the color of the wood.........Another thing all the newer ones lack a stabilizer insert which is on the 80's risers.
Company spends money on a cheap compass and discards the stabilizer insert....????
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Dan, I can't tell any difference in the early 80's from the 3 I have. They all look and feel the same. Exception would be the quvier insert and the color of the wood.........Another thing all the newer ones lack a stabilizer insert which is on the 80's risers.
Company spends money on a cheap compass and discards the stabilizer insert....????
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Sorry for the double post....Trigger happy tonight
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Mooseran, thanks for your educated guess. I have thought 1998 myself. I got this riser in 2000 with very minor use to it. It has to be older then that - at least.
The overall quality of my riser is very good. Absolute nothing to complain about. I wonder how they managed to lost their art in bowmaking with the even newer models (e.g. compass riser), with paint comig off and scratches below the finish etc.
Though the compass really works. Which was a big surprise to me when I checked one out. And I am used to work with compasses so am pretty sharp on errors in that case.
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Falk:
I have two "B" risers from 1996 or 1997 the serial numbers are TDH 156 and TDH 205. I really think that TDH stands for "Take Down Handle". Maybe some here may have a newer “B” riser and would share his serial number with us.
To show you how screwy this can be, I have three "A" risers that are mark like this
TDA-01
3RA-040 (I think this means 3 Rivers Archery because that's where it came from) and I believe that is the year when Bear came out with the "A" riser .
TDA-02
0-17
TDA-06
0-2
My thinking is that in these risers the TDA stands for Take Down A and the number 01 stands for the year. So the three "A" are from 01,02.06
The first one I did get in 2001 the other two were recent buys. Very confusing but I would venture that your riser is and early version like my two “B”s because of the TDH-156 marking.
Limbs are a different animal. Before the introduction of the “A” and the number 3 limbs the limbs were only marked for the “B” riser then along came number #3 limbs and then the “A” risers and now you’ll find limbs with markings for both risers or only one and you have to guess the rest.
I have trouble typing because I use 2 fingers and I forget my thoughts before I can type them , so if I sound confusing it’s not old age……………It’s nice to discuss stuff like this but none of these newer risers will become collectables in our life time. ……………….Hello Droptine
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Falk:
I have five "A" risers that I've had for years. They are complete with limbs and the black cases...
......Three of them are the so called "Type One" and two are the so called "Type Two".
In order to complete a group of the Grayling risers I need a "B" riser RH without any cut outs for sight window or adjustable side plate. Some day I'll find one in mint condition.
I also have some "One of a Kind Risers" a few are on my web site. www.mooseran.com (http://www.mooseran.com)
I still have two more to photograph and put them on the site.
Take care ...my email address is
[email protected]
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Moose, you've got mail!
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TomI, I've shot a Predator for years. They not only look like the Kodiaks, but, if you've ever seen a photo of Fred Bears personal bow, the arrow shelf looks to be identical. They shoot great too.
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Top picture is suppose to be one of Fred's bows, note the very small arrow shelf.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/presley551/Bear%20TDs/Fbearbow.jpg)
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Stagetek, Predators are beautiful bows and someday I'll have one of them too...so many bows...so little time and money.
Bowalaska, I've seen that photo of Fred's bow that Charlie Lamb took. In fact, I saved a copy and have printed it out for friends. your collection is fantastic. Beautiful bows..
Now that I have limbs for mine, Thanks to Larry,
I'm a little surprised at the physical weight.
They're a little on the stout side. Certainly not the lightness of my Super Kodiak or other Bears.
Tom I.
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I have a Mag "C" riser and #3 limbs making a 70" amo bow. I haven't shot it yet, trying to get it set up with the right string.
What kind of brace height will this 70 inch bow require?
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Don't know if recommended brace height would change with bow lenght at all?! I like my B-riser at 8 3/16", with #-3 or #-2 limbs.
Some observation from the picture above:
Mr. Bear obviously liked his bow braced quite high!?! I used the picture above and measured the distance between two fixpoints on the latch system in relation to brace height. I measured the same fixpoints on my riser and could so calculate this bows brace height to be 8.97", say 9 inches! Quite interesting ...
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Just wondering, are the Bear takedowns known for making any creaking or other sort of noises at the limb pocket when first drawn back after being put together? Or more specifically on frosty mornings after a few hours strung up?
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As far as patents go, I have something that I have been curious about. I have ariser made by Jim Brackenbury. It uses the Bear clamps to accept the Bear limbs. Jim only made two, and the other one is in a private collection in Montana or Idaho.
With this riser I use a pair of Shaffer limbs that were made to be used with the Bear risers. I purchased the limbs separately. They make a beautiful combination, and a great shooting bow.
bkupris
I have two Gainseville risers, one original '70 Greyling riser, and then the Brackenbury Riser. I can mix and match these with several sets of limbs I have from Greyling, Gainseville, and the Shaffer limbs ranging in weights from 43# to 70#, all Number two limbs making a 60" bow. I have never heard any groaning, creaking, or other noises when drawing the bow. the latch system is quite solid and quiet. I can't speak for others that may have experience noises, but I have not.
My curiosity is, how could Shaffer and Brackenbury produce these items without violating the Bear patents. Unless of course they paid a royalty for the right to make them. I understand thatShaffer made many sets of limbs like this, but Brackenbury only made two risers.
Anyone got any ideas.
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I have a set of red tip #2s, 50lb on B, that creak no matter which of the wood or metal risers I put them on. Very close inspection shows no stress, chips or cracks and I would not hunt with them. Just noisy in the first couple inches of draw.
Bear patent- kind of neat reading and shows the internals of the riser latches
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&S1=3502063.PN.&OS=PN/3502063&RS=PN/3502063
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That's interesting bowalaska. I have a Herters wooden handle takedown, different limb pockets than the Bear's obviously, but the top limb creaks a little bit. Very annoying and like you I would be hard pressed to use it hunting...
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I have a number of magnesium handles that have never given me a problem. However, I bought a Custom Kodiak T/D from 3Rivers back in the late 90's (not sure of date, however) when they closed out their stock of them and it did have a creak for a while. I can't remember exactly what I did to fix it. I think I slightly adjusted the big set screw that aligns the limbs as it was too high and was rubbing on the top of the matching alignment hole in the limb. There was a thread a bit back either on here or on another site that rhymns with "heatherwall" (are we allowed to say other sites on here?) that talked about this and things to try. If I remember, putting moleskin on the bottom of the limb pocket seemed to cure many of the creaks. I have a buddy who bought one of the new "A" handles from 3rivers and he is still battling with a creak.
Regarding patents, I am not an expert by a long shot, but don't they have a limited time frame (7 or 17 years) and then they expire and it is open season for copycats?
Here is another question for Bear T/D's. Gainsville limbs (at least the few I've tried) don't seem to fit (base is too wide) well on my mag risers. Anybody have that problem?
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I work with patents a little, the time use to be 17 years from date of issue. They have changed that to 20 years from date of application. Those patents in affect when the change was made it is 20 years from application or 17 years from issue, which ever is longer
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How do you tell the difference between the 1970 Type 1 and the 1971 Type II?
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ttt because I just had a short conversation with someone who currently sells a green stripe B-riser plus 65# green tip 2B-limbs at pee-bay.
The description says the bow was bought in 1978.
I had to ask the seller if he is sure of the date. He said yes - all bought together in 1978!
I have green tips 2B's with a lower serial# then those offered and they bear Gainesville silkscreens. I always thought they should be from the 1980'
I can understand if the seller mixed something and/or does not remember the correct date, but on the other side, he may be right?! He was there when he bought it?! Why would he fake the year? So, can it be?!?
Now, I guess my questions are something like this:
Was the green striper riser sold directly after moving the plant to Gainesville?
Were green tips already made before the move? Maybe refinished with Gainesville silkscreens later?
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I really don't believe Bear ever stopped building T/D's.I've seen several Bear T/D's that have the raised plastic button,,,,,no gray plywood riser same as the early model black and tan just has a raised plastic button.The serial numbers on those risers will range in around 2500 (1972ish) and up to I believe B-2789 ??? 1976ish maybe 1978ish which was black and tan no gray plywood riser and had to have been built later on cause in came with a set of factory in the box Norwiegen Blue Tip Limbs!!! 1976ish same as the blue limb tip super K's...... bd
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Better said late then never: Thanks Doc!
Someone out there who can proof when 2B-limbs were made - by serial-#'s - or who is willing to share his info on actually dated limbs?!
Grayling or not - I don't care! It would be nice to have a chart with limb and/or riser serials including dates of purchase (new) or production - if the later could be veryfied at all.