Trad Gang
Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: Margly on January 26, 2012, 11:46:00 AM
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Hi!
I know that this topic is a ever going discussion but here`s my question?
I've read a lot of the things written about minimum draw weight for div. animals.
Lets look at whats recommended about a water buffalo:
Minimum 70lb and 800+ gr Arrows
Solid 2 Blade
I've also read that if you can pull more weight that's`s highly recommendable.
This is for me perfectly clear, but what I`m wondering about is this:
What momentum is recommended?
Example: I shoot a longbow ca 80@drawlength
800 grain arrow 170 fps
The numbers would be:
800X170/225218 = 0,60 momentum
What if I shot the same bow with a lower draw length?
Ex:
800X160/225218 = 0,57 momentum
Is that enough for shooting a Buff at normal distances etc?
Is it OK inside the recommendable zone?
Or should I at least have 0,70 momentum for being OK for this hunting? :confused:
Because if I cant pull 80# I might go for 70# and maybe the the calculation is starting to be pretty low??
Thoughts about this from the experienced parts of the TG family please. :coffee:
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(http://archasse.com/forum/uploads//post-4567-1251574296.jpg)
That one was killed with a 63# @ 29" TOMAHAWK bow and a 750 gr arrow (450 gr up front, nanook BH). shot was done at 23 yards, heart-lung area. Died within 80 yards.
The hunter, a friend of mine, is a french professional hunter, working in tanzania. The buff is a free range, spot & stalked animal
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this is what dont understand , i thought 80lb was minimum for cape buff & yet heres one taken cleanly with 63lb . ive heard of a hunter ( cant remember who )but they took a cape buff with a 58lb acs bow & 850 grain arrow ? ? is there a minimum or not ? does it depend on where you go ? ( just had a look at the abowyer ad at the top of the page & think the guy with the acs is the one ?)
by the way hi ronnie
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Originally posted by hybridbow hunter:
(http://archasse.com/forum/uploads//post-4567-1251574296.jpg)
That one was killed with a 63# @ 29" TOMAHAWK bow and a 750 gr arrow (450 gr up front, nanook BH). shot was done at 23 yards, heart-lung area. Died within 80 yards.
The hunter, a friend of mine, is a french professional hunter, working in tanzania. The buff is a free range, spot & stalked animal
This is exactly what I'm thinking about!
If you have a high effency bow with lower # you might get the same momentum out of it or pretty close!
But still I wonder about recommended momentum for buff an other tough critters!
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Originally posted by graybark uk:
this is what dont understand , i thought 80lb was minimum for cape buff & yet heres one taken cleanly with 63lb . ive heard of a hunter ( cant remember who )but they took a cape buff with a 58lb acs bow & 850 grain arrow ? ? is there a minimum or not ? does it depend on where you go ? ( just had a look at the abowyer ad at the top of the page & think the guy with the acs is the one ?)
by the way hi ronnie
Hi John :wavey:
I did some calculations with my own bows, and found big differences between the momentum calculated.
And that has made me convinced that measuring momentum (with good efoc) is way better then blindly follow recommended #'s
BTW Please say hello to all friends in UK :thumbsup:
Ronny
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I think you're right, blindly following a minimum # is not the best way of going about it. As evidenced above, buff are clearly able to be killed with lower # but highly efficient gear. One thing to consider though is what your outfitter requires, ultimately he is the one backing you up so he may have a minimum that is based on nothing other personal bias. You would be wise to discuss this with him well before sending a deposit.
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I've killed exactly one water buffalo, in 2004 in Australia, so I don't have a world of experience with them.....but that IS one more than most guys that will give you advice. For what its worth, here is my opinion.....
I poked around a bit on my buffalo carcass while we were caping it and from what I saw if you get REAL LUCKY and hit the ribcage just right you could get thru with a pretty light setup....you get REAL UNLUCKY and hit the rib just wrong and you won't get through with any bow/arrow combination - I DO believe there are angles of contact broadhead to rib on a big buffalo that would preclude penetration from a broadside shot no matter what. The reality is you will most likely be between these two extremes on your hit - not "perfect" alignment, and not "absolutely wrong" alignment. The heavier your bow/arrow combination the higher on the "imperfect alignment" curve you can go and still get through. You can't control the angle of your broadhead and exact placement on the rib...that is up to chance. It is an unpredictable world out there...as the saying goes "you pays your money and you takes your chance". If you don't feel that you can work up to pretty significant bow weight I would not suggest hunting buffalo. You owe it to yourself, the buffalo, and your professional hunter. It ain't worth getting someone hurt over.
I killed my buff with a 75@29 1/2 inch Black Widow MAII, a 1080 grain arrow (double aluminum arrow 1716 inside a 2020), a 160 gr 2 blade STOS head on a 125 grain steel adaptor. This arrow chrony'd an average of 165 FPS over a bunch of shots. I did not feel that I was overbowed for buffalo at all. I got into the cresting, broadhead likely at the offside rib, on a good broadside hit at 15 yards. I would do it again, but not with any less bow. I too had the same questions - "how much do I need" - and found that the working up to the bow weight (from my typical low 60's hunting bow to 75 lb buff bow) wasn't that hard. It just took some work.
That's just my experience.
Now, if you are already at 80 lbs, why go DOWN in bow weight on probably the biggest animal you will ever shoot at? Trust me, the buffalo can't do math, and don't realize that a 23.1345% FOC and 0.578394 slug momentum is the point at which they HAVE to succumb to your arrow. They're pretty tough critters, and you'll be REAL thankful for all the bow/arrow combo you can get when you're getting ready to put an arrow in one. My "ah ha" moment (or "oh crap" moment) on that came when I was up a tree videoing a big bull at 20 feet giving me the stinkeye while my bow was leaning against the bottom of said tree. At that point I wouldn't have shot THAT buffalo with ANY arrow!
Ryan
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Traditional Archery is a martial art, just like any weapon used, you have to be physically trained to use it.Match your bow to the game hunted, if you need to go up in bow weight, start a physical training program to increase your strength.Training to use a heavier bow is part of the hunt, you owe it to your adversary to come ready to compete.
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Originally posted by duncan idaho:
Traditional Archery is a martial art, just like any weapon used, you have to be physically trained to use it.Match your bow to the game hunted, if you need to go up in bow weight, start a physical training program to increase your strength.Training to use a heavier bow is part of the hunt, you owe it to your adversary to come ready to compete.
Well written!
But my thoughts is of course in first line shoot as much # as u can accurate.
Train properly for being in your best fit both in mind and body before you are off on a quest like a Buff hunt.
But my point is that momentum is by all means a better way to determine what you need for hunting any game and in particular the Buffs.
If I can pull a 95# bow with 1.0 in momentum accurately, then why not?
But if I pull 65# to the same momentum as mr. Rothaar had(0,79) and shoot the accurately then thats way better to go for than shooting crappy arrows of a 80#
But if I the did not know what the momentum needed or not knowing my momentum, I would rather stay away rather than putting the ph`s and myself in a disaster waiting to happen.
Margly
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Originally posted by Ryan Rothhaar:
I've killed exactly one water buffalo, in 2004 in Australia, so I don't have a world of experience with them.....but that IS one more than most guys that will give you advice. For what its worth, here is my opinion.....
I poked around a bit on my buffalo carcass while we were caping it and from what I saw if you get REAL LUCKY and hit the ribcage just right you could get thru with a pretty light setup....you get REAL UNLUCKY and hit the rib just wrong and you won't get through with any bow/arrow combination - I DO believe there are angles of contact broadhead to rib on a big buffalo that would preclude penetration from a broadside shot no matter what. The reality is you will most likely be between these two extremes on your hit - not "perfect" alignment, and not "absolutely wrong" alignment. The heavier your bow/arrow combination the higher on the "imperfect alignment" curve you can go and still get through. You can't control the angle of your broadhead and exact placement on the rib...that is up to chance. It is an unpredictable world out there...as the saying goes "you pays your money and you takes your chance". If you don't feel that you can work up to pretty significant bow weight I would not suggest hunting buffalo. You owe it to yourself, the buffalo, and your professional hunter. It ain't worth getting someone hurt over.
I killed my buff with a 75@29 1/2 inch Black Widow MAII, a 1080 grain arrow (double aluminum arrow 1716 inside a 2020), a 160 gr 2 blade STOS head on a 125 grain steel adaptor. This arrow chrony'd an average of 165 FPS over a bunch of shots. I did not feel that I was overbowed for buffalo at all. I got into the cresting, broadhead likely at the offside rib, on a good broadside hit at 15 yards. I would do it again, but not with any less bow. I too had the same questions - "how much do I need" - and found that the working up to the bow weight (from my typical low 60's hunting bow to 75 lb buff bow) wasn't that hard. It just took some work.
That's just my experience.
Now, if you are already at 80 lbs, why go DOWN in bow weight on probably the biggest animal you will ever shoot at? Trust me, the buffalo can't do math, and don't realize that a 23.1345% FOC and 0.578394 slug momentum is the point at which they HAVE to succumb to your arrow. They're pretty tough critters, and you'll be REAL thankful for all the bow/arrow combo you can get when you're getting ready to put an arrow in one. My "ah ha" moment (or "oh crap" moment) on that came when I was up a tree videoing a big bull at 20 feet giving me the stinkeye while my bow was leaning against the bottom of said tree. At that point I wouldn't have shot THAT buffalo with ANY arrow!
Ryan
Thanks for very good information :)
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Geez, 165 fps for 14,4 grain per pound, even close to 30", that's a BW prepared by Ferrari :goldtooth:
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Margly "pounds of bow" doesn't mean anything by the way.
Most of bows are less performing when built for very heavy weight, because of heavier, thicker limb mass. Regarding to bow design some bows even from famous brand will give you 140 fps for 14 gpp while other design will be (little) over 155 fps. That means you will get the same balistic with that bow 12-15# lighter than with the first.
In your comment you said a hunter killed a buff with an 58# ACS and 850 gr arrow: that bow/arrow set up is outperforming the set up of my friend regarding to momentum and KE are almost identical:
His was 750 gr (so 12 gpp) was little less 165 fps with his bow.
In the example you mentioned, assuming 28" draw length , 850 gr/58# ACS is 14,6 gpp and arrow will be close around 155+ fps
Any set up giving truly 165 fps+ with 800+ gr arrow with thin shaft and EFOC and well designed 2 blade is secure enough. A clever guy can kill the same buff than a BIG one :biglaugh:
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Hybrid - Nope, by the guys in Missouri, not Italy. I dunno - maybe my chrony's not right - I just used it as it came from the manufacturer. All I know is I bought a chronograph, set it up as per instructions, and shot thru it 20 times or so and took the average. Don't call me a liar (or insinuate such) that is the number I got. Right or wrong? Heck, I don't know. I'm not making it up, though.
I knew there was a reason I don't post much anymore.
Good luck Margly, on whatever you decide.
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Ryan, i don't insinuate you are a liar. As you said most probably chrony wasn't accurate because those numbers are really very high for that bow @ this arrow weight and if someone, with standard draw length takes it as reference for "minimal" he will need A LOT of bow to get the same numbers, in the 90# range. As you said shooting a bow in the 70# range is possible for most of guys with training, at least for a while, but close to 90# is another story.
No offense in my words.
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My buddy made the mistake of thinking his 56# BW MA with 540gr carbons and Zwickey 2bl would be sufficient for waterbuff. He shot through everything in NA and reasoned it would work on these beasts- not!
We've all seen the ribcage on these but your jaw drops when seeing one skinned out. Not only do they have an incredibly thick hide [as I recall about 2"] but then there is another 6"-8" of meat you have to shoot through just to get to the rib cage.
I shot my buddies above setup multiple times into dead buff at 6 yards with 12" being the max penetration.
We had no problem shooting through these buff with 80# compounds and 840gr arrows @234 fps and them dropping in under 50 yards. If I ever have the desire to shoot another one using trad gear it will be with a 900-1,000 gr arrow and at least 68-70# fast bow.
The only shots I would consider are very hard qtr away if I can sneak it in behind the rib cage or broadside. I've killed a few elk with that frontal brisket shot but wouldn't even consider it on these buff. Slight qtr shot on that rib cage is asking for a deflection IMO.
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Margly,I'm not a buffalo hunter but if I had to hunt them with a little less than the recommended bow weight,I would sure bump up the arrow weight to at least 14 GPP.That is 910 grs out of a 65 lb bow.Most bows I've tested shot 14 GPP at about 155 fps.That would give the 65# bow/910 gr arrow,a momentum figure of .626.That is very close to the 80#/800 gr setup.Bow weight is just part of the equation.
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Dr. Ashby used a 65 lb bow (Acs) that produced the same results (same arrow speed with the same arrow) as a heavier straight limbed bow that was 82 lbs. A highly effecient design like most recurves and d/r longbows that pull 65 #'s will kill a buffalo as long as the arrow weight is over 650 grains with a sharp 3:1 ratio single bevel 2 blade. The Ashby reports have proved this time and time again. That said I would want an even heavier arrow somewhere around 800 grains or so with as much FOC as possible.
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Ronnie
Mate in my experience as Buff Guide & as I have seen many trad Kills and killed a few myself with Trad Gear there is only two factors that will help you out.
1. You must be accurate and the better the shot the better the result.
2. Do not overbow yourself as this will effect 1.
I have taken Water Buff with Longbow 67lb and 820grn arrow and strong 2 blade. Also taken with Recurve 61lb and 780grn arrow and 2 blade.
As a guide I recommend that if you can shoot a 70lb Plus Trad Bow with a minimum of 750grns that should do the trick. You just need to be accurate.
No matter what you shoot if you don't hit the spot you can forget it as they take a lot of putting down. I have split ribs and I have just stuck in a rib with no penetration. If the blade hit horizontal then you will have problems.
They rarely give you a second shot so the first always counts.
Good luck with your choice. I am sure the Widownakers up front will do the trick as they have done so before.
Cheers
Mick
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Good info Mick. Thank you.
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Thanks for lot of good info :thumbsup:
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Cape buffs are just plain badass!
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:campfire:
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Mick is correct, of course, as he has seen many buffalo taken by others as well as having shot them himself. I shot mine with a 68#@29.5" Super Shrew Samurai and will be using a 70#@29.5" Super Shrew Safari on my next buff hunt with Mick and Andy in July. I used AD Hammerhead arrows with 2 blade heads for a total weight of about 900 grains. After my buff was dead, I shot it several times to test penetration from various angles. I can tell you that on my huge buffalo (100" horns) penetration was very problematic except on broadside shots directly into the meaty portion of the shoulder behind the leg bone. On a smaller animal I might have been able to split the ribs, and perhaps could have done so on my buff with a 90# bow and 1200 grain arrows, but at my age, with the injuries and subsequent surgery that my shoulder has undergone, 70# is the maximum draw weight I can shoot. That is certainly enough; however, if I could draw more poundage, I definitely would use it.
As others here have said, it is the marginal shots where the extra weight of both the bow and the arrow can make a big difference. Andy Ivy has used both 2 and 3 blade heads with comparable results on broadside shoulder hits. I tend to favor 2 blade heads, but any head has to be super sharp and super strong. I would recommend the 300 grain VPA heads (2 or 3 blade), although I have heard great reports on the Tuffheads too, and heads like the Silver Flame, STOS, ABS Ashby, and Grizzly have had success in the past. I have seen chipping on some of the single bevel heads, like the ones I used, and believe the forces that help twist the head and split bone may also be helping to chip the blades. There may also be some metallurgy issues with various blades. Some heads also tend to break at the front of the ferrule, which is very bad for penetration.
The ribs on my buffalo were about the size of a man's femur, so they are very difficult to penetrate or break, regardless of what some folks may think after reading Ed Ashby's excellent reports (read them carefully). Remember that deer, elk, moose, and most other game animals are in no way comparable to the really big and tough critters like buffalo, rhino, croc, hippo and elephant. For those animals you need equipment of a much heavier, sturdier level unless everything is absolutely perfect -- which it almost never is.
Allan
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One thing that is seldom mentioned is the actual size of the buffalo. Not all are made equal.
The difference between a BIG Bull like the one Allan shot and a young bull or cow is huge. Not even in the same league.
A young animal or cow is half the Animal a BIG bull is!
Its also worth mentioning there have been some serious issues with some of the high dollar single bevel heads available now breaking and snapping, you have to remember how critical the head is....no matter how good your set-up is...if the broadhead fails..everything fails!
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Hi i have a question for the guides from Australia what the cost for a hunt in your neck of the woods i've always wanted to hunt your country and its on my list just need to plan for it.anyone wanting to email direct can or if you want to trade part of the cost for a wisconsin hunt also let me know. thanks Lawrence
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Andy is absolutely correct about the broadheads. There are only a few of them that I would recommend for big buffalo, and some broadheads that are highly touted -- and are expensive -- just won't hold together when trying to penetrate to the vitals. Next month when I go back to Oz, I'm taking three brands I trust, only one of which I took last year. I plan to mainly use new models of broadheads that were not even available last year but seem to be the best ever made. That will hopefully be determined to some degree, and the results will be given. Andy and Mick have been doing more than their share of evaluation with several hunters going after buff this year. I have heard some preliminary reports about the new broadheads I am taking, and they are good. I will tell you that one of my setups will be a 1000 grain arrow that started out as a weight-forward, tapered shaft and then adds 575 grains to the front of the shaft. So, it will be an extreme FOC arrow with a super heavy-duty, newly designed broadhead. More later.
Allan
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I'd be interested to hear what broadheads-(especially the high dollar ones) are failing and which ones are holding together. It's no use putting a head on the end of an arrow if it's just goin to fail.
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I think knowledge of anatomy is every bit as important, or even more important than the equipment factor. I recently hunted with two Finlanders who have both killed hippos with a bow. They apparently need to be shot from an upward angle entering where the skin is the thinnest.
DDave
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I read this thread with great interest, because a dream of mine is cape buffalo with a longbow.
Laurent that buffalo is one I have dreamed about most of my life. What a boss on that bull. Tell your friend congratulations on a beautiful bull.
Marty I enjoyed that video many times. I think you hit on the head when you say it all comes down to that one moment in time and that one arrow. I especially enjoyed the part where you say, "I didn't choke and I can do it, I have seen me do it"! Ha!
Gil
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The 80# rule in some places for certain game is a poor choice.
80# draw weight will not produce the same in all bows, and much more importantly, 80# draw weight with a 26" draw length produces far less momentum than the same draw and arrow weight pulling it back to 29-30".
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Bruce, I agree with your choice for the minimum in trad bow and arrows, but the best shot I found for penetration when experimenting on my dead buff was right through the meat of the shoulder on a direct broadside angle. Andy Ivy and Mick Baker have had the same results after observing many more shots at buffalo than most people would ever see in a lifetime. You are absolutely correct on the toughness of a big buff and the difficulty in getting good penetration.
Ryan, my Super Shrew Safari longbow launches a 1000 grain arrow at about 150 fps, but it is 70# at my 29.5" draw. With an extra 5 pounds of draw weight and a somewhat more aggressive design, I can imagine that your BW could shoot a slightly heavier arrow 15 fps faster, but I will say you got a really fast bow there. It happens. Some of my bows from the same bowyer with specs that are identical to one another shoot at significantly different speeds, but most of my bows are pretty consistent with normally expected speeds. Pat Kelly's Morrison ILF needed 82# of draw weight to just about equal the performance of your 75# BW, and Morrisons are some of the fastest bows made when constructed with foam and carbon limbs like Pat's. The important thing for your situation is that you properly prepared yourself for your hunt, used enough bow and arrow to kill your buff, made an excellent shot, and had a great hunt. That's as good as it gets! Congratulations on a successful "experience of a lifetime."
Allan