Trad Gang
Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: Mchunt on July 13, 2009, 04:10:00 PM
-
OK Shooting a 43#@28" BW Recurve. 43# due to rotator cuff problems some years back. What would be the absolute MINIMUM poundage needed to KILL a Cape Buff?? All things as shot placement arrow and broadhead wieght are already considered perfect. Keep in mind that training /practice with heavy poundage will most likly result in shoulder damage. What is absolute minimum to still be in the game?
-
I don't have personal experience, but from talking to those who do & what they've told me, 70# would be the absolute minimum & 80# would be better. 900+ gn arrow is a must & -unfortunately for your shoulder- so is a lot of practice. If you're not 100% comfortable shooting heavy weights like these, please forget about buffalo. I'd hate to read of your untimely demise!
-
What is the red goo between the cape buffalo's hooves? The guy who shot him with a 43# bow.
I dont think 43# could even push an arrow deep enough to get a lung, even with missing a rib. And if you were to hit one, no way jose.
I'll agree with Rob, I have no personal experience, but I have heard the same, as well as some fellas that HAVE done it, saying OVER 80# is ideal.
Set your sights on a hog, 40-ish pounds is about minimum that I'd suggest. A poor man's cape buffalo. Very exciting to hunt, and can get the adreneline going too.
-
My cape buffalo setup was a Super Shrew pulling 68 pounds at 29 1/2 inches which is at least as good as 70 pounds at 28 inches. I was also using an EFOC 915 grain arrow. I consider that to be near the minimum for a cape buffalo bull, but it should be plenty if shot placement is good. Unfortunately, I never got a shot at a buff. Lots of practice is an absolute necessity. My surgically repaired shoulder hurt constantly, but not as bad as a horn through my chest if I had shot a buff and only wounded it. I have to agree with Rob and Brandon, stay away from buffalo with a rig as anemic as you describe. It will only make him mad. Wounded buffalo are dangerous to everyone. I doubt you could find a PH who would take you hunting buffalo with that rig. Mine certainly would not.
Allan
-
70lbs at 28" draw the longer the better
850gr arrow.. 1000grs would be better
-
I'm with you on that minimum Andy.
Allan
-
Howard hill said you can take any animal in North America (American bison, moose, muck ok, etc) with a #40 bow. He was talking a Howard hill style bow. If you add in modern advances like r/d limbs, efoc arrows, single bevel, skinny string, etc you might have a good chance with #43. I suggest you buy the most efficent bow at #43 you can (belcher ssr 205fps fingers 10gpp 28in draw), follow Ashby's instructions on arrow weight, efoc, tapered shafts, etc and get the slickest strike plate, shelf, lighest silencers, etc. Maybe even use the heaviest spine weight grizzly stiks with the Ashby head. I would test the setup here first on game and possibly a cow carcass if you can. Then you decide if it is sufficient.
-
cape Buffalo and American Bison are not even in the same league.
im pretty sure you could kill a bison with a 40+ lb longbow...
but the heavier, thicker skinned, wider, overlapping ribs, dangerously tuff track record of a cape buffalo is another story completely.
Like Allan said its very unlikely you will find a guide that would even entertain the idea of shooting one with a 40 some pound trad bow.
not saying its impossible but think it would be a dangerous and expensive goal
-
Draw lenght is important factor. 60#/30" bow will outshoot 80#/26" anyday....
-
Originally posted by DG2:
Draw lenght is important factor. 60#/30" bow will outshoot 80#/26" anyday....
Actually it won't......nescessarily. A lot of that would depend on the bow. For a bow of equal length being pulled to 2 different drawlengths, yes, a longer draw is a big advantage. However a short draw with a short bow, compared to a long draw with a longer bow kinda equals out.
Bottom line is; no matter what your drawlength 43# is only going to piss off a buffalo & possibly get you recycled.
-
I saw some of the buffalo ribs that Monty Browning was carrying around....man they are THICK and wide too. I don't think you could slip an arrow between them by the sound of things. That said lots of people have "magnumitis" and want the biggest gu/strongest bow etc. I think a lot of that stuff is overblown.
There also is a point of no return with heavy arrows....something that isn't discussed much but will be in the near future once people ralize that one can have too much arrow weight.
Maybe youshould look at a compound of you really want to shoot a dagga boy. There's no shame in admitting that you aren't up to it physically. I know I'd never be able to pull 80 lbs and shoot well with trat gear.
the chef
-
Even shooting a .458 Winchester I was worried! :scared: Going after one with a sub 70# bow imho is suicidal!
To go after these beasts with stick and string is not high on my list. Unless it was titled 'Ways to die horribly' ;)
They dont call it 'Africa's black death' for nothing....
-
What is the deal with the advantages of a longer draw?
In my case I shoot a Black Widow 66 @ 29. I pull 30.25 inches. That should be about 70 lbs.
I have chronographed a 772 grain arrow at 170 fps.
Does this seem good? Could be better? what?
Not that I'm going buff hunting but is this Black Death medicene or would I be recycled.
Thanks
-
Richie,
I think you have enough going for you with that bow and your draw if you pick the right arrows and broadhead, get everything perfectly tuned, and make a good shot. I would recommend a heavier arrow, although you are getting close with 772 grains. A hundred more or so would be good. At 11 grains per pound, 170 fps is good velocity, much of it due to your draw length. A longer draw is like a longer stroke in an engine. Force is applied for a longer time, thus imparting greater energy (velocity) to the arrow for a given peak draw weight. Some bows can do a little better than you BW, but it is doing fine. Your rig is pretty comparable to mine if you were to have another 140 grains of weight in your arrow. I am guessing the velocity of my arrows at around 160. I need to break out my chronograph and see.
Allan
-
have a look at the pics of a buff, and seriously think. there have been times where i have been shooting at the butts and the target is freshly packed and all new and shiny and at a distance the arrows can occasionaly bounce off using fieald points i know there are huge diffrences between hunting and target arrows but that was enough to get me thinking
-
The words of Peter Hathaway Capstick come to mind , "an angry, wounded buff will very likely stomp you into a Bloody mud-hole".
-
Amar911
Thanks for the info.
The 772 was with a 300 grain field point.
I use a 190 grizzly with 100 grain inserts that is 285 grains after being sharpened. That would make my elk hunting arrow 760. I can also set up a 900 grain arrow by adding 140 grains of paracord. The 900 grain shot 155 fps.
Last year I shot a whitetail with a 994 grain arrow. It certainly worked well breaking the offside shoulder/leg on its way out. I use this arrow for deer because only because I need it to be so quite a 15 yards.
I would rather be able to shoot farther and flatter at elk with the 760 gr. arrow.
My only possible issue or problem when getting very technical is the diameter of my 2317 arrows. However these arrows do shoot very well. I have tried other setups but I just keep going back to these 2317's.
-
Chef i agree with you that some of the really heavy weight technical stuff is pretty overblown, lot of people went crazy with extream set-ups single bevel heads when most of the hunting they do is whitetails. however there is nothing wrong with someone getting the most performance out of their gear even if they only hunt rabbits if fact i would encourage it.
when it comes to dangerous game such as Buff with a trad bow i dont think you can get overkill, except if your set-up was to heavy to shoot accurately, no point having a 95lb bow and not being able to hit what your aiming at.
i plan to do quite a bit of testing next time im up in the Northen territory, different bows, draw weights, arrows, broadheads including stone points etc..
-
Over and above all good points made it would be illegal to use a bow of such light weight for buff in majority of African countries.
-
Hello
look at this ....
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/kiboko_bucket/squelette.jpg)
probably hard to get in !
-
thats a neat pic David thanks for sharing :thumbsup:
-
That picture says it all,without saying a word!
Bill
-
Looking at that buffalo I can see its not even comparable to an American buffalo. I can see though how a single bevel would provide a huge advantage.
-
not the best pic but..
American Bison for comparison
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/page13e.jpg)
-
Yes, you are going to need to cut through a rib to get inside the chest of a cape buffalo. So, like others suggest, you need the combination that will provide the best penetration in a rig that is at least at the minimum described above and that you can still shoot accurately. That's why I chose the most bow I could draw and shoot well with a 915 grain EFOC arrow and the Ashby single bevel broadhead. I just wish I could tell you I have killed a cape buffalo with that combination, but I am still looking for a shot at one. Someday!
Allan
-
Originally posted by tradtusker:
thats a neat pic David thanks for sharing :thumbsup:
thanks you, this pic was took by a friend in the natural history museum of Paris
it's a scary picture for bowhunters !!!
by the way i'm looking for the same from an Australian water buffalo, do you think the "armor" is scary as well ??
-
Wow that's a great picture!! And it tells a story too....one that could end very poorly if things go wrong.
-
Michael, to your original question. I did some testing in 2008 with a 40#@27" Bear Formula Silver recurve. The testing was done on young adult bulls. That size animal was selected because they have a rib thickness approximately the same as an absolutely enormous bull elk would have; thus, some degree of correlation in bone structure, albeit behind much thicker, tougher skin. The back injury/surgery has delayed me getting the Updates on the 2008 testing written up, but I'll pass this along.
Yes, with the right arrow setup it is possible to get a killing shot on a buffalo. I found some arrow setups that would give reliable double lung hits on the young adult buffalo bull, and with many giving a high percentage of thorax-traversing hits. That said, I didn't find an arrow setup that would give 100% thorax-traversing shots on that same size class buffalo.
A trophy class bull is a lot bigger animal than a young adult bull, with more massive bones. I'm fairly certain that it would be POSSIBLE to kill a trophy class bull with a 43# traditional bow (especially one of high efficiency, and at a longish draw length), but at what level of reliability I can't say (that would depend on the arrow force the individual bow was able to generate with a suitable arrow). At any rate, and regardless of the arrow setup, using that light a draw weight on a trophy class buffalo bull is not something that I would recommend or advise you to attempt ... unless you were in a true survival situation. Its use cannot be justified in a sport hunting situation.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
-
Well said Doc,trust those who have experience.
-
Dr. Ed,
What would you say is the broadhead/arrow that would have the maximum efficiency out of the bow that would be a reasonable mimimum for large, old, trophy class cape buffalo bulls? I know others (including me) have speculated about that but without the kind of knowledge and experience you have in this area. I am asking for specific types, weights, etc., of this setup. I do understand that everything must be properly tuned for near perfect arrow flight and that the angle and placement of the arrow must be optimized with a shot at fairly close range. Thanks for your help on this.
Allan
-
Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
Michael, to your original question. I did some testing in 2008 with a 40#@27" Bear Formula Silver recurve. The testing was done on young adult bulls. That size animal was selected because they have a rib thickness approximately the same as an absolutely enormous bull elk would have; thus, some degree of correlation in bone structure, albeit behind much thicker, tougher skin. The back injury/surgery has delayed me getting the Updates on the 2008 testing written up, but I'll pass this along.
Yes, with the right arrow setup it is possible to get a killing shot on a buffalo. I found some arrow setups that would give reliable double lung hits on the young adult buffalo bull, and with many giving a high percentage of thorax-traversing hits. That said, I didn't find an arrow setup that would give 100% thorax-traversing shots on that same size class buffalo.
A trophy class bull is a lot bigger animal than a young adult bull, with more massive bones. I'm fairly certain that it would be POSSIBLE to kill a trophy class bull with a 43# traditional bow (especially one of high efficiency, and at a longish draw length), but at what level of reliability I can't say (that would depend on the arrow force the individual bow was able to generate with a suitable arrow). At any rate, and regardless of the arrow setup, using that light a draw weight on a trophy class buffalo bull is not something that I would recommend or advise you to attempt ... unless you were in a true survival situation. Its use cannot be justified in a sport hunting situation.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Hello Doc, good to read you again :thumbsup:
-
Allan, realaze that here I'm having to extrapolate from the results shown with the 40# bow. The testing was directed at the heavy bone threshold, and whether or not the degree of arrow FOC had any effect. The test included 4 sets of arrows, each set having 12 arrows. I'm working from memory here, and can't, off the top of my head, recall precisely all the specifications of each arrow set. All 48 arrows were of identical external profile. Set 1 had Ultra EFOC (31.8%) at 620 grains; Set 2 was 623 grains at about 11% FOC; Set 3 was around 690 grians at around 25% FOC; and Set 4 was at around 725 grains at about 26% FOC. (When I can do the Updates, I'll have the exact arrow specs there.) For what it is worth, velocity with these test arrows ranged from 120 to 129 fps.
Bottom line test results: the degree of FOC showed no effect on the heavy bone threshold, with 50% (6 of the 12 shots) of both Sets 1 and 2 managing to breach the ribs. Between Set 1 and Set 2, Set 1's Ultra EFOC arrows showed an enormous penetration increase for each of the six hits THAT DID MANAGE TO BREACH THE BONE, with all of the six bone-breaching shots managing AT LEAST a solid double-lung hit, and with the majority fully traversing the thorax. Of Set 2's six bone-breaching hits, none managed more than a shallow one lung hit. Sets three and four, both of which are above the heavy bone threshold, showed a 100% rate of breaching the bone.
I won't get into more specifics on the results yet, and I still have to do comparisons between the outcomes shown by these arrows and those shown by comparable shots with normal and EFOC arrows at higher force levels, but I'll say that ...
IF I were designing a maximum performance arrow for that same 40# bow, at this very moment, I would be looking at: (1) changing the 190 Grizzly used in the 40# bow testing for the Modified Grizzly (for the much higher MA the Modified Grizzly offers); (2) trying to reach an FOC of 35% OR MORE (you read that correctly, thirty-five percent, or more); at (3) a mass weight of at least 700 grains or so.
It doesn't appear that I'll be able to do any testing in 2009, but I'm hoping to be able to do some in 2010, with some Ultra EFOC arrows up in that 35% range.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
-
Dr. Ed,
I'm sorry, but I obviously didn't ask my question very well. I was wanting you to describe what you thought was the practical minimum specs for a bow for a large trophy cape buffalo and then the arrow that would be needed to make that bow work. For example, you might tell me that the bow should be a minimum of 65 pounds at a 28 inch draw with an efficient reflex/deflex longbow or recurve shooting a 900 grain arrow with a 25% EFOC or greater and utilizing an Ashby single bevel or similar broadhead. Of course, you might give more or less detail on any of the factors that would go into the bow/arrow/broadhead combination that you believe would be the practical minimum. By "practical minimum" I mean the combination that you think would produce a quick killing wound virtually every time with a well placed shot. In other words, what would be the combination utilizing the lowest poundage bow that you would take out hunting a big cape buffalo? I doubt any of us think you would use a 40 pound bow, but most of us cannot draw and shoot an 80 pound bow either.
Thanks,
Allan
-
Allan, sorry I misunderstood what you were asking.
The arrow part is pretty easy. The bow part is a lot harder.
A lot of the bow's 'minimum' would depend on the bow's efficiency. With heavy arrows, the ACS-CX at 64#@27" delivers exactly (and I mean that literally) the same fps across the chronograph as the straight-end 82#@27" longbow I've done most of the Asian buffalo testing and shooting with. With the 'right arrow setup' both bows have also reliably delivered exit wounds on trophy class bulls.
With the right arrow setup I can also get absolute certain double-lung hits on trophy class bulls, with a high percentage of thorax traversing hits, from my 70#@27" longbow; and I can exceed that bow's performance (with the same mass arrows) from a 54#@27" ACS-CX. So, the bow's draw weight won't really tell you much. Look at the verious arrow setups shown in the updates. Note their performance and the momentum they were tested at. Regardless of its measured draw weight, with YOU shooting YOUR BOW bow, if it delivers that level of momentum to a like arrow, then the outcomes will be the same.
The arrow setup that I currently use for the 82# and 64# bows (and this may change, depending on the outcomes with the Ultra EFOC testing) is the 790 grain Internally Footed EFOC ones described in the 2007 Updates, and has been used with both the Modified Grizzly and the Ashby BH. It has, to date, delivered 100% exit wounds on all buffalo, including a couple of the largest bodied bulls I've ever arrowed.
With a normal FOC arrow, using either the Grizzly, Modified Grizzly or a comparable BH, I need 840 to 900 grains on either of those bows to feel confident of a thorax-traversing hit on a trophy class bull, from all reasonable shooting angles. The weight difference results from other factors, such as whether the shaft is parallel or tapered, and such things as the ferrule to shaft-diameter ratio. Note that the lighter-weight EFOC arrows described above consistently averages more penetration than these higher mass, normal to high FOC arrow.
If you're looking for a near 'off the shelf' arrow setup, the best easy setup I've found is the Grizzly Stik Safari with an extra 100 grains in brass add-on weights back of the brass insert, and using either the 190 Grizzly or Modified Grizzly on a 125 grian steel adaptor, or with the Ashby BH. This is a higher mass arrow, well over 900 grains (at the length I use them). From either the 64# ACS-CX or the 82# straight-end longbow they also give reliable thorax-traversing penetration with a very high frequency of exit wounds.
The Safari shaft takes me only a tiny bit of tinkering with shaft-length to get them bare shafting perfectly (less effort than working up a 'start from scratch' setup). However, that might be different for your individual bow. None of my bows are very near center shot. Even on the ACS-CX I add a very thick arrow plate to make the bow less center shot. This reduced the dynamic arrow spine required to tune perfectly, allowing me to add more tip weight, for a higher amount of FOC.
Regardless of how you set your buffalo arrow up, remember those three 'must have' feature: (1) ABSOLUTE structural integrity of the arrow, tip to nock; (2) ABSOLUTE perfect arrow flight and (3) a TRULY SHARP broadhead that STAYS SHARP throughout its entire penetration (still truly sharp AFTER the shot).
Hope that answers your question better.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
-
Dr. Ed,
That does answer my question, and does so very well indeed! What you describe sounds very similar to the combination I took to Zimbabwe a month ago when I failed in my attempt to get within shooting range of a cape buffalo. I will definitely try again. I had a Super Shrew Samurai takedown longbow, 60" 68#@29 1/2", and was shooting Arrow Dynamics Hammerheads with 170 grains of brass inserts and screw in weights with the ABS Ashby broadheads for a total weight of 915 grains. The arrows flew great and hit targets with great force. I believed this setup would be adequate for the task if I had a chance to send an arrow in the direction of a cape buffalo, but that unfortunately was not in the cards. Presumably you would agree that such a setup would have done the job.
Thanks for you marvelous insights.
Allan
-
Hello Dr. Ed
I was wondering ....
HOW YOU MANEGE TO GET MORE THAN 31% EFOC ?????
Even with a 300 grains nail + 100 grains insert + 300 grains broadhead i don t reach so much .
If i am not mistaking ...
-
Hello Pascal,
The biggest 'secret' to obtaining Ultra EFOC is to use the lighest weight shaft you can. That reduces the weight back of the center of gravity. The second 'secret' is to not have your bow too close to center shot. That allows you to use a weaker static spine arrow (lighter shaft weight again) and still have enough dynamic arrow spine to tune perfect flight with high point weights.
I built up a new longbow (about 80# at by 27" draw, but haven't scaled it yet) just to use in the next round of Ultra EFOC arrow testing. It started out with no arrow shelf, just a peg rest. I started toying with the arrow setup, using GT Ultralite 3555 shafts. With 575 grains up front, the full length 3555 shaft was still too stiff. (And, before anyone asks, I did check to verify that I wasn't getting a false strong shaft, from a grossly weak shaft slapping the bow.) That's over 35% FOC on the full length shaft, and will be more once I can shorten the shaft down (again, reducing weight to the arrow's rear).
Moving your arrow away from center shot offers a lot of tuning possibilities! Before I started this newest round of medical stuff, I had just started gradually cutting in a small arrow shelf and started the tuning process with that arrow point-weight/shaft setup, but that's now on hold until I get through with these medical test, and whatever follows.
Are you using the AMO Standard Method in measuring your FOC? That's the measurement method I use on FOC. The method you use won't change the arrow, but will change the answer you get. To compare one arrow to another you need to be sure both are measured by the same system.
Hope that helps,
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
-
Ok Ed
I went to see on the forum and using the AMO method :
According what you said with my combo
i got 29.7 % EFOC
Thank you again for all the job you have done until now
I had not the chance to arrowed a buff yet in Central africa
I didn t dare at 22 yards , to far for me and my
combo .
Maybe next year ....
Hope you are doing better
Pascal
-
I'll never get the opportunity to go on a hunt like that. And don't know if I'd have the boots to carry that heavy load. But kinetic energy is energy and doesn't care what the draw length, poundage, arrow weight etc. is.
Mchunt. Your crazy at best. (please sense the humor) But I won't let my daughter hunt deer until she is able to resposibly shoot the kind of weight your talking about. ....Ray......
-
Great thread; but I would like to ad that the American bison is a serious hunt as well. I have a friend who guides on wild bison and they have a lot of trouble getting those down sometimes, and that is with guns. I think they insist on backing up bowhunters. They are lightning fast and dangerous.
-
Great read for a deer hunter like me.
The pic of the Cape Buffalo skeleton was very interesting to say the least. I had no idea on the bone structure.
Dr. Ed, Thanks for all the detailed info provided. A true help to us all!!!
-
When I shot mine it sounded like I hit my red wood privacy fence. I got about 20" of penetration with a 83# bow and a 980 grain arrow. I would never attempt to shoot one with less than 75#. (http://www.buffsblackwidow.com/images/cape6.JPG)
-
Less than 75? Well, I feel pretty confident that I can take one down with my 70 pounder. If not, then I die :goldtooth:
-
With less than 75 you would just add more work for the PH. After they looked for your buffalo then they would look for you...the small greasy spot.
-
Well, it's 70@28", so I could easily pull a few more pounds out of it. With the correct setup, I have no doubt that it's possible.
-
People are comparing draw weight with performance which isn't going to get you anywhere. If you take a 70#hill bow and a 70#black swan which one do you think will penetrate farther(given the same arrow)? The other problem comes with arrows. Not all 1000grain arrows are created equal. The difference between high and low foc in Doc Ashby's studies was an extra 50% penetration. Tapered vs non tapered, carbon vs wood, etc all matter. Next thing string material and strand count. That alone (if I remember correctly) was equal to 8# of draw weight speed increase. The point is that an efficient set up of low draw weight can outperform a non-efficient set up of high draw weight.
-
You're completely right. As I wrote: "... with the correct setup..." :)
-
I don't frequent this section of the TG, but the experiances of those that have been successfull with this beast didn't play games. The lite, lite bow syndrom of recent years have convinced people that this feat is capable by " accuracy, arrow flite, broadhead choice and accuracy."
You can poke holes in elk all day long with my daughters 44 pound longbow. But the Buff don't like the skeeter bites from bows of those 'piss ant' bow poundages. I really can't believe this is a subject of question???
Raybow..........
-
Raybow...Wow tell us how you really feel :biglaugh:
-
Originally posted by RaybowTx:
I don't frequent this section of the TG, but the experiances of those that have been successfull with this beast didn't play games. The lite, lite bow syndrom of recent years have convinced people that this feat is capable by " accuracy, arrow flite, broadhead choice and accuracy."
You can poke holes in elk all day long with my daughters 44 pound longbow. But the Buff don't like the skeeter bites from bows of those 'piss ant' bow poundages. I really can't believe this is a subject of question???
Raybow..........
Well told
-
I agree RaybowTx, good point.
-
Draw weight poundage does not equate performance...it is only one of many factors that will determine how well an arrow will penetrate. As the good doctor has proven time and time again, proper arrow design is critical for ultimate penetration with a given setup. Even then, there will be a minimum weight for each given bow that will be sufficient to get the job done. I will take a 65# high performance bow with proper arrow setup over an 80# bow that shoots like a dog and does not have an optimized arrow system any day of the week.
-
I would rather have an 80# high performance bow with proper arrow setup than a 65# of same performance level.
I would think anyone who shoots a heavier bow thinks that proper tuning is just as important as the person shooting a heavy bow.
As I read throughout tradgang I notice over and over how guys imply that heavy bows and arrows are used by people who care nothing for accuracy, sharp broadheads or properly tuned arrows.
Hellooo
-
i Agree Richie
just because someone shoots an 80lb bow does not mean they ignore proper arrow set-up, tuning and optimized performance.
dont know where that misconception came from :confused:
-
McHunt,
Don't know if this will help, but I had a major rotator cuff redo on my right shoulder (right-handed shooter) back in 2000. Wasn't sure what would happen to my ability to shoot traditional as a result, but had to do something. Anwyay, after proper physical therapy, I was able to slowly work my way up starting at 45# to now about 60# and feel like I could work up further if I really wanted to. No problems and I actually start to get sore in the shoulder if I go without shooting for a couple weeks!?
Just wanted to let you know that you may not be as limited as you think after rotator cuff repair.
You might want to ask your doc or physical therapist if you have any limitations on your potential to work up after that rebuilt cuff, the nature of the damage and repair differs for everyone, but my experience after an extensive repair demonstrates that with proper, gradual work up, you might be able to get to 70# or more.
Just wanted to let you know that you might be able to get closer than you think to that ideal weight, whatever that is.
Best wishes!
-
Off the ACS gallery(http://www.acsbows.com/foreigngametrophies.html):
"Dangerous game
Mike Mealey made a perfect 35 yard heart shot to take this cape buffalo in South Africa.
Mike was shooting a 58# @28" ACS bow with 808 grain arrows behind Abowyer Brown Bear broad heads. "
Sounds like a long shot with a light bow, but he was successful. Would shooting them from a treestand make it easier to get an arrow into the vitals? In the picture of the skeleton, it looked like there are larger spaces between the rips up high and it got me thing. Also it would be tougher to get killed in a tree.
-
Originally posted by oxnam:
Also it would be tougher to get killed in a tree.
Nope, first off the buffalo will charge the tree, you'll fall out probably breaking your legs, the tree will land on you & then the buffalo will stomp you into the landscape. Seriously, the only trully safe place to be to shoot at a buffalo is in a tank & then the bastard probly has a can opener.
-
I keep learning how nasty and tough they are and I want to hunt them more and more. I must not be right.
Do they ever get hunted out of treestands?
-
Originally posted by oxnam:
Would shooting them from a treestand make it easier to get an arrow into the vitals? In the picture of the skeleton, it looked like there are larger spaces between the rips up high and it got me thing. Also it would be tougher to get killed in a tree.
Good idea, although I would think that even though there would be larger spaces to get an arrow through, penetration would be an even bigger issue because of the angle. You would be trying to send an arrow through a larger chuck of body mass, and most likely would not get an exit hole, so your only hole to leak blood would be high on the body.
Rob - you crack me up!!!
-
Very good point over&under.
-
Originally posted by robtattoo:
Originally posted by oxnam:
Also it would be tougher to get killed in a tree.
Nope, first off the buffalo will charge the tree, you'll fall out probably breaking your legs, the tree will land on you & then the buffalo will stomp you into the landscape. Seriously, the only trully safe place to be to shoot at a buffalo is in a tank & then the bastard probly has a can opener. [/b]
thats the best post i read in 2010
Rob "wordsmith" Tattoo :D
-
"
ou & then the buffalo will stomp you into the landscape. Seriously, the only trully safe place to be to shoot at a buffalo is in a tank & then the bastard probly has a can opener."
nice one ... lol
:clapper: :biglaugh:
Ben
-
Minimum "reasonable" set up stated in arrow weight and speed please. Will try to exceed that of course. At my age and almost brand new to recurves it may be a tall order.
Have 19" Sky TDX riser coming and want to know which Belcher limbs to work up to/order. thanks
-
Huge thread & great input. Hat's off to any who go after these majestic animals. Dr Ashby your info is invaluable. Hope you're feeling better.
I'm a responsible heavy longbow addict hoping to go myself one day. I feel panic in those with atrophied shoulders & joints where time will not wait. Err to caution for any animal that can ruin your weekend. Danger is a powerful draw.
-
Of course you should check the regulations before doing more than dreaming. The regulations in Africa can be dramatically different across country borders and can change on a whim (or after someone has bad results). Many of the regulations will refer to minimum draw weights and some even require certain Kinetic Energy, beast by beast. I only shoot 45-48 pounds traditional (60 with compounds). If I had the money to hunt Cape Buffalo (long been my dream animal with a bow) and if it was legal (unlikely) I would consider myself way underbowed to try it. I wouldn't risk my 56-year old shoulders (or my form) to work up to buffalo poundage. Bummer.
Also, like others have said, I imagine one of the least favorite things for a PH to do is to track a miffed buff. I'd say my favorite recurve set-up (not far off yours) for whitetail deer would be a major buff-miffer.
-
Bowwild, as an ex compounder I switched to recurves first as a backup travel set up 9 months ago. However at 63 yrs and barely 140lbs I find that the recurve is much much easier on me than my compounds ever were. Now shooting 72#+- recurve but find 60# compound uncomfortable and my 67# impossible. Recurve has progressive draw and no shoulder wrenching let downs intentional or not.
Ps. Always shoot warf and recurve together one set at comfortable poundage one set at goal poundage. Shoot heavy poundage until accuracy goes away then pick up lighter poundage and form and accuracy are back immediately. The higher my poundage goes the more accurate I am at lower poundages.
Shoot with a peep release and compound sights and I give up very little to the average club compounder even with 55# limbs.
Hope to make 85# by 2011 for an OZ buff hunt as a primer for my dream Cape Buff hunt that I had basically given up on with a compound! My shoulders do not appreciate a rectangular draw force curve.
-
Actually, good modern hybrid bows or recurve will exceed 150 fps at 14.5 gpp for 28" of draw length (Very best of them will be over 155 fps) and over 160 fps for 12 gpp (over 165 fps for the top the line).
When you look at the modern reports of buff killed with a trad bow, most of them were done with set up giving 160 to 170 fps for an arrow weight in the 750 to 900 gr. Some were done with lighter set up, some with heavier.
A modern top of the line hybrid bow 60# @ 28" shooting a 800 grain EFOC>25% arrow would be my "absolute minimum" (will give 160+ fps @ 28"), but with good release, perfect arrow flight and good shot placement. Must keep in mind that to raise this speed with the same arrow with an Howard Hill style bow and its 18 or 20 strand dacron string you will need around 85#@28 even or little more...
My hunting "go to" bow is a Fedora Xtreme hybrid LB 63# @ my 31" draw length, giving me a consistent 170-172 fps with 840 gr easton full metal jacket DG 5/16 " arrows for hog hunting. I wouldn't change anything in my set up for buff hunt and i am sure i would do the job.
-
Can't draw 80# comfortably, guess I''ll have to go with the 416 Rigby
-
Ribs are typically heavier and thicker near the top. Lots of animals have been killed by small bows and .22 cartriges, but to do the job right. Remember this thing can kill you, or whover else is around. If you have a guide and they are at all obligated to dispatch that animal, it puts their life at risk.
I always wanted to be a Doctor. Whats the absolute minimum I need to do to be a Doctor ? Wanna be my patient ?
ChuckC
-
I always wanted to be a Doctor. Whats the absolute minimum I need to do to be a Doctor ? Wanna be my patient ?
:clapper:
Absolutely the best comment on these debates!
chrisg
-
The doctor comment says it all!!!
-
post deleted after rereading thread. :bigsmyl:
-
Mchunt, having hunted Buff before with rifles I think you should look past all the negative comments.
Look at the possitives .... and the best I can come up with is that, with your setup...rotator cuff problems will probly be the best part of you day...
-
I just don't know why anyone would want to put themselves in harms way by hunting with "The Absolute Minimum." Before you invest anymore time in this dream, invest in a gym membership and get your strength up. If +70lbs is just not feasible - then stop even thinking about getting yourself and guide killed.
I don't mean to sound harsh, but the reality is you are going to get someone hurt and our sport taken away if you keep up this ridiculous goal.
-
The absolute minimum for me will be the maximum I can shoot accurately...should be somewhere around 70#...but if I get stronger than that, then I'll get a new bow that's heavier! Compared to the cost of the hunt, the bow cost is minimal.
:bigsmyl:
-
a few folks have compared the american bison and cape buff. and said there alot different but in all reality the plains tribes that lived off bison didnt take a broad side shot straight into rib bones. instead the road a horse along side and shot with a steep angleing forward shot behind the ribs straight into the diaphram. worked great the animal may last longers than normal but in due time would expire. you could do the same thing with a cape not a horse of course but to take a steep angleing forward shot would do the job fine. but then you run into the problem of it being the black death.
-
A whole in the diaphram would take the run right out of anything. The diaphram creates the vacuum in the pumonary cavity, allowing air to flow into the lungs. Running a bison with a horse would not take long to subdue if the lungs cannot ventilate due to a puncture.
I have a 92# carbon backed longbow that will put a 650g wood arrow consistently through my 1/2" thick pine wood fence (ocassional long range target miss) if any lefty needs some buffalo medicine, send message.
-
This has been one of the most interesting threads i have read. I can no longer consider a buffalo hunt but the time was there. I have shot 3 bison with 2 different bows in the 60+ poundage range. After previously seeing the carcasses hung in the locker plant, i took only 1/4ing away shots. If my arrow didn't hit the off-side shoulder it poked out the skin between the neck and shoulder blade. 2 of them took a few steps and laid down. One of them went close to a 1/4 mile, but he was in a group and the others prodded him along and kept him on his feet. I do not believe that i would attempt a broadside shot at a cape buffalo with anything other than a rifle. None of the bison showed any interest in attacking me. None knew i was there and all of them being hit from behind went forward to get away from the prick that stuck them. The "prick" being the arrow point you understand. What i find most interesting is the concept of extreme front of center point of balance. it only makes sense that the stiffer the front of the arrow is the less vibration with the entering portion hence more penetration. I had a friend in England build me a 70# English long bow built to English long bow specs. She sent me a true bodkin point made to take out Knights in armour and built to true English specs. The arrow was what she called a "bobtailed" shaft. The shaft was as wide as the ferrel at the front and tapered to the knock at the rear. She also sent me an arrow made for taking out French archers. It had a small barbed point and a barrel tapered shaft. The old timers has this all figured out a few hundred years ago. I am jealous of any man that gets to hunt cape bufalo, perhaps in my next life or if heaven is all they say it is and they actually let Marines in.
-
I think very simpley as a trad hunter we should make responsible choices, and I think hunting a big animal like a buffalo (any kind of buffalo) with a light weight bow is irresponsible. I think we should do all we can to ensure the highest percentage of clean kills and prevent animals from running around with arrows hanging out of them. 43 is too light for Buff, too light for Moose, elk etc.