Trad Gang
Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: ozy clint on February 09, 2009, 11:00:00 PM
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do you think it could be done? what point material, design and weight would be optimal? what shaft timber? what poundage for selfbow? only high pecentage shots would be taken. if it doesn't offer the perfect shot. no shot would be taken.
i really want to do it! i guess most of you are thinking...... :scared:
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Well it's been done millions of times in north america....but not in the last 150 years or more
I say go for it. Make sure you bring some extra clean underwear!!
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Ask Doug Campbell, he has done it a lot. Worked so good and anthropologist included the information in a book he was writing at the time. Go to Dougs photo pages and there are pictures of some of the Bisaon he has killed with wood, sinew, and stone.
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Originally posted by calgarychef:
Well it's been done millions of times in north america....but not in the last 150 years or more
I say go for it. Make sure you bring some extra clean underwear!!
Yes it has...Doug Campbell's quickest bow kill buff was a 7 second heart shot with a selfbow and stone point.
I'll see if I can get him to come in here and post some info.
Ozy...nah, I wouldn't think that if you have the right set up it should'nt be a problem if you take the right shot.
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:biglaugh:
ahh...just want to clarify something.
i'm referring to water buffulo back home in australia.
that made you raise your eyebrows didn't it! :eek:
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yip big difference in a Big Water Buff compared to an American bison! but never the less i think it can be done.
how much weight can you pull mate? :D
theres a lot of ribs bones and skin to go through.
you hit this shoulder bone your done!
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/Australia2187.jpg)
this is the skin on the side behind the ribs it even thinker on the neck and shoulder!
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/Australia2213-1.jpg)
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at the moment i'm starting to feel comfortable with my 70# recurve but i'm still working into it. i guess i'd have to shoot somewhere in the ballpark of 80# with a selfbow to make up for it's lack of efficiency compared to a modern recurve or longbow?
it's not something i'm going to go and do tommorrow. alot of preperation has to go into point design, arrows, etc.
oh yeah.... i'd have to learn to shoot a selfbow well enough.....nothing major :eek: lol
hey tradtusker- is that a cape buff or a water buff?
i've asked this question on primitive archer and it seems that no one has done it. also, someone mentioned that it would be against hunting regulations in africa to hunt dangerous game with stone? so water buff might be it.
maybe it's one feat in the archery world that hasn't been acomplished??
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NO!, a water buffalo is built NOTHING like a bison! There is virtually no space between a water buffalos ribs. I think I am going to start a program to abolish the improper use of the word "buffalo" when descibing BISON, someone screwed up a couple hundred years ago and we have had to deal with it ever since!
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its a Water Buff Clint, one i shot up in Arnhem Land with a compound
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Wells that makes more sense now that you are specifying what kind of buffal we are dealing with. :D I still think it could be done. Mammoths and Wooly Rhinos were killed with stone and wood although I think an Atlatl is the more likely projectile thrower in those cases. That would be fun though too!
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Joseph, that was a much different time too, typically today we don't have groups of hunters ganging up on one animal!
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Yer but Mammoths and Wooly Rhinos where Killed by Packs of Neanerthals throwing / shooting mutitly ammounts of arrows and spears and stoned then usually ran off a cliff to finish off with.
I think there is a reason why no one has successfully done it befor.
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Thanks for the clarification ozy....yeah, that would be a real chalenge....no worries with the bow or arrows.....just what head would hold up bouncing off ribs....and I sure don't know about all that knapping stuff.
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there is a guy here on tradgang that i believe can make a stone point that could kill a buff.
Woody is an artist with stone! this is a head he knapped for me last year, made from imperial jasper. it is the best broadhead iv ever seen :D .
its quality may give you some hope Clint
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/TexasSweat08126-1.jpg)
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/TexasSweat08128.jpg)
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/TexasSweat08129.jpg)
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A work of art and far to pretty for me to shoot for sure! I have no doubt those heads would kill a buffalo, the problem is getting it through the ribs and still penetrating quite a lot of buffalo after that. I found out very quickly on buffalo that penetration isn't the only thing, but without enough of it, nothing else matters. I guided one guy who is a fanatic when it comes to knapped heads and selfbows and used them both in Africa and elsewhere, he said he would not attempt shooting a water buffalo with them. I wouldn't guide someone using that combo unless they agreed it was fine for me to start putting .416 diameter holes in the buffalo IMMEDIATELY if "I" saw there was insufficent penetration. The reason I emphasize "I" is that hunters almost always see the shot as being better than it was and when you start shooting anykind of projectiles at buffalo, you need to have the plan well prepared, before it happens, because things sometimes happen very fast afterward. I would suggest the best plan for shooting a buffalo with a selfbow and knapped head would be to start with one that is already dead and see how that goes!
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I hear ya on the 'mistake' Rick....I've heard 'where the buffalo roam' since I was a kid, so our bison comes into my mind 1st when I hear the word buffalo. My bad on this thread. I'll try and re-program that.
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That knapped head is AMAZING! It's art on the end of an arrow!
Rick has a good point (no pun intended), try out some shots on a buff that can't stomp you into the ground first, then go from there. Seems it could be done, but I would definately want some firepower next to me. It'll be a great story if you do it!
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Andy
Mate if you can get a arrow to me with a head like that I would glady have ago with the Widow Longbow of mine. I'm sure at 10m I should be able to get the job done. Time is getting closer.
Cheers
Mick
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I might just bring a couple for us to have a play with next time we hunt Buff, we'l hammer the pigs with something else. :wavey:
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Andy
I'm sure we will.
Cheers
Mick
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Of course it CAN be done. But that's not the point, or it shouldn't be. No problem with the selfbow, but stone points have too much unpredictable variability to be a good choice in this situation. Even the best knapper can't tell exactly what a given point will do when it hits a hard rib. Shooting a bison under controlled conditions doesn't really mean much. If things go south, just roll it over and go home. But wild buffalo are dangerous animals. Shatter a stone head on a rib and you may cost some innocent bystander his life a month down the line. It's not worth it just to prove a point (no pun intended). Asiatic buffalo are tough enough with the best steel heads. if you don't believe me, ask Ed Ashby. Cheers, Don
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As the guy who made the point that Andy pictured, I have serious reservations about the effectiveness of stone points on water buffalo. Stone is incredibly sharp, but that sharpness comes from it's brittle nature. I think it would penetrate the tough hide easily enough, but not the overlapping ribs. My feeling is that it would break in one or more different ways.
Another problem with stone points is that the hafting area has a cross-section that's appreciably thicker than on steel broadheads. That heavier cross-section might inhibit penetration.
My $0.02's worth.
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No sir, wouldn't do it! There's always bungee jumping if you need that kind of adrenaline! Now if you do attempt such a crazy thing, please film it! Oh, and do have a tall tree to climb nearby, o.k.? I don't care to see YOUR blood! :scared:
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okay can anyone show me a cross sectional photo of some ribs and where they sit in relation to each other.
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You could always try it on a cow buffalo first. I'd be happy to come along on the walk with the .416 incase things don't work-out. Sorry, I don't have a photo of the ribs.
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yeah, if it doesn't work out.... shoot me! :biglaugh:
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I'd be more afraid of the 80# self bow blowing up and taking your head off! :goldtooth:
No offense Rick, but that little .416 Rem is one notch up from a self bow if one them critters is comin atya. You can borrow my .458 Lott and getr done.
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To me that point is kinda like the piece of rock candy on Josie Wales "its not for eatin, its just for lookin thru".
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I suspect that in ancient times the ribs weren't the target for bows. A gutshot animal can be tracked until it drops, especially if you're as skilled a stracker as some bush people are. It just seems to make sense to shoot for the softest part of the animal with that kind of setup.
the chef
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I'll agree that testing on a freshly downed buff is the way to go.
Don't let romanticism get you trampled or get a buffalo unnecessarily injured.
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It would be interesting to see what happens. Go for it! And as already said....FILM IT.
.......heheheh
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okay you knappers, show me what point you would use. i'm thinking more of a rounded point.
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If you want a stone point that's in line with Doc Ashby's research, you might think about something like this. It split the femur of a 100 lb hog and kept going. The damage to the point was minimal and may have occurred when it exited the hog. I think it weighs about 270.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c360/krf123/TXSweat081_17.jpg)
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Woody i remember seeing that single bevel head at the sweat and thinking how on earth can someone make a single bevel stone broadhead! Outstanding sir!
as i said before if there is anyone that could knapp a head that could bring down a Buff it is you!
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Rick,
thats a great and practical idea there.
nothing will give a more precise indication on how it will go than trying it on a real buff just downed.
Clint,
you've got me keen for a go at this selfy stone and stick buff challenge. your going to have to come back over here and get it done so i can have a go. don't want to steal yyour thunder so i'll let you go first.
clint i saw somewhere blokes learning to nap flint. they used porcelin from toilets (new one that broke in transport not old ones). they used pieces from the toilet tank walls as they are thin and flat. good cheap way to get a handle on it before heading off into the bush for some flint.
otis...
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Using a knapped head on dangerous game that is difficult to penetrate does not seem like a good idea to try. Seems like an unacceptable safety risk to both the shooter and back up gun.
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I have to disagree on the risk being unacceptable, John. Sure, there is a risk there, but it is an acceptable one, provided the back-up has a good amount of trigger time on heavy calibres against heavy animals (pick me, pick me!).
One thing I will concede, though, is that to be a good back-up, you really do need lots of experience with the heavy stuff, so that it is second nature. You can't hand a back-up rifle to a fellow who's shot a few pigs and goats with a .243 and feel too safe and secure.
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Your dead on, on that one Ben. If it is attempted one would be wise to choose a mate with lotts of experience and a .458Lott to boot.
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you might have to come hunting with me ben. you've got a .416
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you'll need a camera man, i can cook too :)
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GOOD GOD! Please film this! I hate/love to watch! :eek: :scared:
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if you do try this don't take a backup gun. at least then the red mist will not come over you.
that little voice will not say just lob one in there i have backup behind me.
if you go old school go all the way or don't go at all
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I disagree, Jason. I'm not sure how many buffalo you've played around with, but at the end of the day, to me it is just play. Back-up is important, to me, because no contest between me and an animal is worth the animal taking my life (see, this is very much an individual thing - to somebody else, it may well be worth it); and secondly, with an animal like buffalo, where the risk of wounding is greater due to a number of factors, I believe it is best not to let it get away wounded - and mostly, when frightened or wounded, they just run away.
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i did 2 seasons in arnhemland guiding. and you missed the point. with backup people can take shots that are less then perfect as they have somebody with a large cal firearm standing behind them for when they are wounded, agro or both. without backup you don't take less then perfect shots.
if you are using a 70-80 pound bow with heavy arrows and strong steel broadheads go for it but stone points there are to many variables as not all stone is created equal.
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Well, each to his own. You've got a good point; I've got a good point...The middle ground is for the bowhunter to be cool and well-disciplined enough to take only the right shot; of course, that is easier said than done. It's all just talk at the moment, and thinking, but if anyone could do it, it'd be Clint, and I'd be happy to look after him with the .416 Rigby, and not only him, but the buffalo, too. It doesn't hurt to think and dream, and perhaps one day the dream will happen - with a bit of action. Oh, and I guess you've sure played around with a good number of buffalo, too, so hat off to you for believing what you do based on your experience. Cheers, Ben
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all these Aussies need to get together and put all this theory into practice....i'll bring my .223 and my 53# bow....Ben
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just my 2 cents worth.
please spend plend a lot of time breaking heads on dead buff first. i think mr don tomas said it well if it does not work you can just roll it over and go home.
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Southern Ben - too funny! :goldtooth:
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Heres MY two cents and they are based on A LOT of experience, with bows, buffalos, bowhunters and backup rifles. I really thing it would be a very very bad idea to try shooting a live BULL water buffalo with a stone head. Its a little bit on the borderline side as it is with the best of heads. I have spent DAYS lots of them looking for buffalo, that were shot with very heavy bows, arrows and steel heads. The danger is your choice and it is considerable. Its not really fair to living buffalo to start sticking them with things that are an experiment at best. An upset buffalo coming at you full speed, will make you wish you took up golf instead. It dosn't matter whether you have a backup file behind you are not, bad shots happen and in my opinion any shot with a stone head is not going to be a good one. Lots of people seem to thing that the big rifle removes all the danger, those people have no experience or they wouldn't thing that way. We had one guy that we repeatedly told NOT to shoot a buffalo in the head, with his super duper new .416, he did it anyway and the buffalo ran away not to be found. We have come close to having people killed several times from buffalo with numerous holes in them from .375's, .416's, .458's etc. etc. etc.. My partner very nearly got whacked by a cow buffalo that charged while they were stalking a bull, eight shots from the .416, so, me with the muzzle nearly touching her, before she quit and walked away, that was after she knocked a small tree over on top of him. He also had a REALLY big bull that had been wounded by a bowhunter two weeks before, just charge them flat out and eight shots from a .450 Marlin and the .416, with only a lucky spine shot stopping the buff against the tree the hunter had been using as rest. That lucky shot was the last one in the .416. Ask Monty Browning about his story demonstrating penetration on his dead cape buff. That was with his 90#, 1500 grain arrows and the long thin two blade Hunters heads. The first arrow sank to the nock and everyone was impressed. The second one centered a rib and barely sank to the length of the broadhead.......................................
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Rick, I want to word this carefully. What experiences have you had with stone points? I don't mean it to come across as any kind of challenge, but rather as a source of good info based on real life experiences. How did they fail? Shattered point, failed hafting, poor penetration, etc? I'm always looking to improve the things I make, whether they're going to be used on whitetails or buff. Thanks in advance!
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everyone- please don't think i would go and try to shoot a buff without first doing extensive testing on freshly killed bulls to see if stone pointed arrows will handle hitting ribs and still gain enough penetration.
rick- i think what your saying is that we shouldn't use anything that can't penetrate ribs everytime. i agree. but if a 1500gr arrow from a 90# bow with a two blade head failed then what hope have us mortals who can only pull 70# got. even modern gear can fail to perform on high percentage shots.
the next step is to gain data on the performance of stone on buff ribs and see if it matches the performance of steel. till then i don't think anyone can say it can or can't be done.
this thread has been going long enough and no one has chimed in saying they have even shot at a dead buff to see what happened. no one who said it shouldn't be done has come up with the broken points/arrows to prove why. for all we know the right point, arrow, bow combo could work fine. just my novice oppinion.
can anyone post some pics of the cross section of the ribs? lets see some ribs that have been hit with conventional b/heads. at least then those who haven't seen a rib, that includes me, can behold the task being asked of a primitive arrow.
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Perhaps I've given the impression of being too brash; I concede that Rick's wisdom is the best way to go: that is, to shoot into a fresh carcass, and then try on a cow or young, immature bull pending the results of the first activity. I absolutely understand that many hundreds of big game hunters armed and backed-up with heavy rifles, have met unfortunate and unpleasant ends at the teeth, claws, hooves, horns, heads and knees of their game. I'd still be happy to assist and back-up Clint with any such experiment / adventure. I apologise if my "She'll be right!" Aussie demeanour came on a bit too strong and foolishly. Good hunting and best wishes to all!
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knife river, lack of penetration. Jay Massey was about a big a fan of primitive archery as there was. He made his own selfbows, arrows, knapped heads, gathered sinew etc.. I still have some of that sinew here. Anyway his goal was to kill a bull moose with his 80# selfbow and knapped head. He waited for years for the PERFECT opportunity on a close, standing broadside bull and when he shot, he said the arrow nearly hit him as it BOUNCED off the bull. Now a bull moose has very thick hide, but its not half as thick as a bull water buffalo or as tough.
Clint I do have some ribs here, though they have been drying for about 12 years so they probably shrunk some. They are about 6cm wide at the widest and about 17mm thick, they do taper towards the back edge, which they need to so that the buff can turn, there is no space between the ribs, so when they turn the ribs slide over the one behind it, like fishscales. I had one really good bowhunter shooting a 95# wheely bow, with 900 grain arrows and Zwickey Eskimo heads, he was an excellent shot also. I warned him to only take broadside shots, but when he got the opportunity, the buff was slightly angled away. He said he thought it WAS broadside and I don't doubt him, people tend to get a bit excited when they are close to buffalo. Anyway the shot was perfect, but even with that outfit, he only got less than half the arrow length of penetration, which just barely put the head into the heart and the bull dropped in well under a minute. If he had gotten two inches less penetration, the bull would have run off. I did an autopsy and found that the two blade head had slid right between two ribs vertically, so the only damage to the ribs was a tiny matching groove on the mating sides where the ferrule had pushed through. If that head hadn't been prefectly vertical and hit right where the two ribs came together, it would have played out totally different.
Somewhere I have photos of replaceable blade heads stuck in ribs with only the tips making it through, I think most outfitters in buffalo country have some of those ribs laying around.
Lots of hunters go to Africa and see the PH with the big rifle and never have another thought than the rifle is there to keep them safe, actually thats probably the lowest priority. The rules in Africa are mainly to protect innocent by standers and wounded dangerous game is likely to whack the next person they see. My experience is that a water buffalo that has been wounded by a bowhunter and encounters another human being a week or two later, is 50% likely to try and kill that person. Think what would happen if a family of tourists camped along the road got smashed and when they killed the buff they found he had an arrowhead festering in him. It could be the end of bowhunting for buff in OZ and in fact TWICE I have heard the words, "no more bowhunters" from station managers, because of people doing things they shouldn't have done. I can tell you its a pretty sick feeling when you work ten years to build up good will towards bowhunters and someone destroys it in a week.
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like i said even modern gear can fail. don't think that the wounded buff killing tourists scenario couldn't happen with modern gear. i wouldn't stereotype stone broadheads before we even know how they perform.
sounds like buffulo hunting even with high tech gear is to 'iffy' to to call it ethical.
there has been more buffulo wounded with steel than with stone.
no where have i made the claim that it can be done.if they don't perform in testing i'd be the 1st to say don't do it. everyone thinks it can't be done but no one knows if it can.
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Thanks for the info, Rick. I sure wish Jay was still around so we could pick his brain about it and see the head/hafting he used. Just as there's a wide range of effectiveness in steel broadheads, there's a huge range in stone points. Some of the points being made and used today are a bit less than ideal and are better suited for use as paperweights (I'm trying hard to be diplomatic).
Clint, if I wasn't clear enough in my post on page 3, I'd be glad to make some points for you to experiment with. The key word there is EXPERIMENT on freshly killed buff. If we're both not completely confident in stone points' effectiveness on water buffalo, we need to pull the plug.
Along similar lines, the hafting job needs to be done right, too. In my eyes, it's every bit as important as the point itself.
Rick, I hear and understand you perfectly. I don't want to participate in something foolhardy that might hurt innocent folks or jeopardize the future of bowhunting in OZ. However, I am very curious to see how properly made stone points perform in these experiments. After we get a feel for how stone does on freshly-killed water buffalo we can take another look at whether or not to press on. First though, I see no harm in the experiment.
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Guys, I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time, I just want to give a counterpoint to those that say, "just go ahead and try it and let us know how it worked out". In my experience, they wouldn't say that if they had any experience. A couple years ago Ted Nugent stuck some arrows into a rhino and it was a fiasco. The next DAY it was front page news in Jo'berg. Now there is no dangerous game bowhunting in S.A.. One thing may not have been directly responsible for the other, but it didn't help.
I did have one of Jay's heads, but I mounted it on the box I made for the Jay Massey tribute knife I donated to PBS a few years ago. It was a decent looking head, I don't know if it was the same as the one he used on the moose or not, but Jay was very serious about that stuff, so I am sure he had things as good as he thought he could get them.
Clint, of course, you can have problems with modern gear as well. I figure out when I shot the first buff and the arrow bounced off the ribs that penetration may not be the only thing, but if you don't have enough of it nothing else is going to matter. That first shot failed, because I listened to some bad advice, ultimately, it was MY fault, because I listened to it. At the time, there was very very little info on bowhunting buffalo and virtually none on water buffalo. The advice I got was "don't worry, they are not built like a cape buffalo, you will shoot right throught them with that outfit". It turns out the booking agent who gave me that advice, like he actually knew, didn't KNOW ANYTHING. So because I thought they were soft and I would "shoot right through them", I used a wide head to cut as much as possible and I shot right behind the shoulder like you normally would and the arrow from the 79# bow was perfect, except that it only penetrated to the ribs and fell back out and the bull was back to grazing a few minutes later. The following year, when I was a bit better educated, I brought an 85# bow and Grizzly heads and shot the arrow all the way through.
My point we all need to consider what we do before we do it and think about at what point the risk is no longer acceptable. I have no doubt with my buff gear, I could put down any buff in seconds and so could anyone else, but unfortunately, some of the guys I guided, chose to ignore my advice which was based on experience and go with their own opinions. I know there have been stories the last couple years about guys killing buffalo with bows in the mid 60# range. Unfortunately(and I have personal knowledge)a guy posing with a buff and a 65# bow dosn't really tell the whole story.
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Rick, Don, I have been to that bad movie, I was hit by a pissed off cape buff dagha bull when guiding a walking safari. He had a broken, septic horn tip and was partially blind. He had trashed a vehicle and chased a couple of game scouts up a tree in the weeks prior to our meeting so he was good and ready for me, but I never got a shot off - he ran between me and my clients. I was carrying a .458 BRNO with 490gr monolithics. I escaped by playing dead immediately he hit me, lots more damage bones ribs etc, after a minute's wrestling, I kept dead quiet, it worked and I am alive and whole today.
Clint, Ben, LOTS of stuff is possible in theory. Most of the PHs and reserve staff visited me in hospital. Want to know what they all said? "You are so lucky, we should have collected you with a spade and bucket" The guy who drove me out to meet the ambulance had done just that a mere three months earlier. I had a black man from the reserve village come in to my ward as I lay drugged up and with tubes in every orifice and two drips and shout at me in Shangaan. In his yelling he made it clear that I was more than just 'lucky' and that I was to be very grateful and respectful for the gift of the rest of my miserable life. No sympathy at all.To this day I don't know how I survived.
So guys, let me tell you that there are no such things as 'experiments'. It is not fair on the animal and you or someone else might just get killed. And please re-read what Rick has said about the numbers of shots that it took to put an angry animal down. Forget about one shot kills, THAT IS FOR THE MOVIES, you'd be lucky to get one. A cape buff has a brain the size of a grapefruit,most is covered by hard bone and the 'boss', waterbuff is much the same I guess. That is why you read about one shot kills, the ones that fail appear in the deaths column.I do not normally like to talk about this experience but this thread makes me mad. Sorry.I will pull this post tomorrow.
chrisg
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Rick, I guess you are not referring to me since I have never posted a picture of my bow killed buff in sept. 2007? I hunted with your old mate Andrew Mackay at his place and killed an old big bull which I have told about earlier here on Tradgang.
It was a one shot kill almost to the flecth with my 65#29" DAS bow with Samick Extreme limbs. The arrows was optimiced as Ashby suggest and also with very high FOC. There was no "funny stuff" going on (rifles or such)- it just died in a matter of seconds. Feel free to ask Andrew if you want or doubt anything I have said.
I don't understand why most people keep talking drawweight alone when discussing "killing power". That doesn't tell much. A persons drawlenght and the bows performance - and not to forget optimicing the arrow means much more.
These Samick Extreme limbs was shooting heavy arrows much more efficiently than all the other bows I have tested untill now - and believe my there has been a lot on my shooting machine! Compared to a Black Widow recurve (and I love Widows!) I got app. the same speed with 8-10 pounds less drawweight. And on top of that I draw an honest 29 inches. If I only drew say 27 inches (and still 65#) I would get app. 10 fps less which again is equivalent to 8-10 pounds of drawweight. So to me talking drawweight alone doesn't add up.
By the way I can attest that a .416 Rigby isn't a 100% solution when the **** hits the fan with waterbuffalo. There was an American rifle hunter at Andrews place while I was there and he really got into trouble. He and the guide (not Andrew) emptied both their .416 Rigbys into it while it came at full tilt and they still had to run in cover behind the car for reloading. Then the guide dispatched it with a head shot from very close - actually just in front of them. If that had been me with my bow and no car near ..............
The americans wife was in the car while the angry buff tried to turn it over so she didn't want to go hunting for more buffalo - and actually the husband didn't either.
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Chrisg, the only "experiment" being considered right now is to shoot stone-tipped arrows in a freshly killed animal. If any one is foolish enough to try it without proper preparation beforehand, then they fully deserve the Darwin award.
Don't pull your post. Not only is it a riveting read, but offers top-drawer advice. It makes me wonder, though, if you're saying that hunters should ever hunt cape or water buffalo with bows?
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Woody it wont be long till i get back and hunt Buff in Ozz again and giraffe in South Africa I would be very interested on Testing Stone tips on Dead big game animals to see how they perform, i think there is a lot to be lurnt and would be interested as you said to see the results of a Properly made stone head, its limitations and it capability's.
there is no problem shooting Buff with archery gear both modern or trad but like Rick said it has to be done properly advise from the right people has to be taken, the right gear must be used, there is also a different mind-set you take on when hunting big/dangerous game.
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i agree andy
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Andy, that sounds like a plan. :thumbsup:
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Hi Woody, thank you for your kind words. I am aware the debate has moved on and is focussed on testing on a dead animal. I think this is a good idea. I wonder though if it is shown that stone is not good for heavily boned animals that people will stop there? Careful, controlled testing is needed to prove the effectiveness or otherwise of stone points on heavy boned game. Ashby has spent many years doing this with steel points and his findings in 'perfect laboratory conditions', balanced against field tests illustrate very well the vagaries and risk of 'going out and giving it a try to see if it can be done' BY SHOOTING A LIVE ANIMAL. I am offended by the gung ho attitude that this thread started with, it is not a thrilling ride at the funfair. This kind of hunting is the most serious kind and the animals, our fellow hunters and the world needs us to behave responsibly. Rick has added considerable evidence to show that this might be more than just a stupid stunt but that it could hurt other people. An idea originally mooted by Don Thomas. I would be inclined to listen to that coming from those people. As professional guides we had to contend with many grumpy animals after the short hunting season in that reserve, my accident was not caused by a wounded animal from human actions nevertheless it serves to show that any large animal that is injured is dangerous. I have guided for many years and this was a freak incident, I was lucky is all.
I am not saying that we should not hunt them, but I am saying that it has to be done well and for the right reasons. There is a world of difference hunting animals in the bush where they are not standing square and level, where there may be other unseen ones, where one or more might be injured, in Africa you might have lion or elephant in the vicinity, etc etc. This is why we do want to hunt them. However I have read many stories on this site and in magazines that end, "after tracking for an hour or three ' the blood trail dried up, got lost, etc, so we had to leave the animal and went back to camp'" NONONONO, if you could choose to shoot it you had better be prepared to find it. Especially if it is a dangerous game animal like a buff. It has been shown that bowhunting these big animals is possible, done right. I would like to see conclusive evidence that stone points can stand hitting ribs, and yes they do overlap considerably in the middle and they go far back.This is not conjecture, or open to debate, only down low near the front is there any marginal gap, but a stone point hitting a rib even obliquely is going to have to be tough, ie flexible-not many stones have that-not to snap. In TBM there was a story of a guy shooting chert birdpoints into a whitetail doe and almost all his points broke from passing through ribs or hitting the shoulder blade. A buff is not a whitetail.Those ribs are hard.We are talking of a perfect shot, Ashby has gone to great lengths to find a point that will up your odds of success with marginal hits, so far only the best steel points seem to make it.
chrisg
chrisg
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chrisg, has said it very very well and I hope he dosn't pull any of his posts. Ashby, did considerable testing on water buffalo after he got to Australia and found that they are second only to the pachyderms in difficulty of penetration.
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"do you think it could be done?" is the 1st sentence of this thread. sorry if you think that is gung ho. i've never said that it would be attempted without 1st seeing whether it was possible.
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Excellent post, chrisg. I agree with everything you wrote. After exchanging several pm's with ozy clint, I am confident we're all on the same page.
I didn't see the TBM article you mentioned (I only subscribed for one year). I'd like to know a few things, like what kind of stone he used, if it was heat treated, the quality of the knapping, and how it was hafted. Each one of those factors can determine success or failure. All stone points are not created equal: I've seen pics of many deer hunting set-ups that I thought to be marginal for even foam targets...
I'm not trying to defend (or condemn) stone points: as I said in my first post on this thread, I have serious reservations about their effectiveness on water buffalo. I'm very curious, though, to see what happens in a test on a freshly-killed buff.
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Fair response, Clint. Rereading it all again on balance most posts are based in reason and gladly the initial plan of testing on downed game is back at the top of the page. If Ashby after so many years has narrowed down material design and dynamics to a very limited set of parameters with STEEL, stone points have a long way to go yet.
Clint, your line 'maybe this is the last 'feat' with primitive equipment' was the one to alarm me. Perhaps it was not meant in the way I took it. That and a few others asking that it be filmed at least, what is this? On Tradgang? Enough preaching.
Maybe the tests on downed big game will draw a line that defines a real limit. This is not about 'failure' rather it is like saying "don't jump from the third floor balcony", we know you will get hurt!
Woody, that article might be in Primitive Archer. I will dig it out. He did use several different types of stone and they looked very well made, yet I was struck that he said most broke, he had lots of pictures, and he used a low poundage bow, about 40# I think. You have brought our attention to the hafting and shaft thickness a few times and I know Ashby has lots to say on that score too.
This is the first time I have discussed my accident publicly after eleven years, apart from addressing the guides and scouts at the Pilanesberg. The accident was in Klaserie. No reason not to talk about it, just a private thing. The circumstances are important here, not me. This thread just set alarm bells ringing. I do not want to hijack the thread and thanks to guys who pm'd me. It is an interesting debate and folks can learn from all inputs.
chrisg
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Chris as from Clint's stand point i never got the impression he was going to grab a stone point and gung ho one into a Living Buff.
oftern on Forums like this things dont always come across as intended by the poster.
without getting off track from the original post.
do you think it could be done?
sure i think it is possible,once off maybe, however with any consistency im very doubtful as you are. I do not believe the stone point could withstand a full on rib hit without breaking. And there are hundreds of variables.
Woody how about the consistency between stones of the same material, im presuming one may be harder than another? can there be undetected faults? what in your opinion would be the best stone material?
as Chris pointed out look and the extent of Ashby's finding and see how many good steel broadheads failed.
"Maybe the tests on downed big game will draw a line that defines a real limit. This is not about 'failure' rather it is like saying "don't jump from the third floor balcony", we know you will get hurt!" i think that is a good line
now what we have to do is get some of woodys points into a dead buff
or we'r going to wear ourselves out beating this horse
woody ill give Ed Ashby a shout and try get his take on this and info on the best way to go about testing.
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clint, I don't think anyone is taking you to task, it was some of the other "go for it" posts that started getting a bit over enthusiastic(see page three). All my answers are either in response to your original question,"do you think it can be done" and in my experience, no it can't, not on any kind of a reliable basis. I am sure that if you do it enough times on live buffalo, something will die, possibly the buffalo. My earlier analogy about what would happen if some tourist got whacked by an buffalo with a stone headed arrow is farfetched, but farfetched things do happen, what if the buffalo with an arrow in it just stood along the road and had some tourists video it? That nearly identical thing DID happen. One of the times I mentioned where a station manager said, "no more bowhunters". A bowhunter with a compound and lightweight arrows got no penetration and did no real damage to the buffalo, BUT that bull with MILLIONS of acres to roam, chose to run across the road in front of the station managers toyota with the arrow still hanging out on the visible side, what are the odds of that? It only took one person(Steve Irwin) to get sport croc banned in Australia, gainst all common sense. The less they get involved with buffalo hunting the better!
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agree 100% with that Rick
and your analogy on tourists getting stomped by a wounded buff is not all that far fetched, wont be the first time a wounded buff gave someone a touch up, and like you said if it happens to the wrong people, person it could easily spell the end of bowhunting the big stuff out there.
hows the situation with the crocs there now?
the station i worked on out there where having some problems with the crocs, said they where seeing crocs where they had never seen them before, small ones getting pushed further and further out.
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tradtusker, they say there are as many crocs in OZ now as there was when the white man first showed up. The government has 600 permits to give out per year to the aborigines and for problem crocs. Very, very few of those get used. The plan was to give 20 or 30 of those to outfitters in the NT to sell to sport hunters who of course are only going to shoot the biggest ones, which are also usually the "problem" crocs, so everyone would win, no more crocs would be killed than there is now, it would save the government money since their trapper wouldn't have to be catching as many problem crocs and the NT would be collecting lots of foreign $$$$$ from the sport hunters, BUT Steve Irwin decided he didn't want sport hunters shooting "HIS CROCS"(exact quote)and used his personal friendship with the minister in charge of such things to stop the croc hunting. So instead of hunters coming there and spending lots of dollars the station hands will just shoot the bigs crocs and leave them to rot or the government trapper will have to be sent out to catch them and most of the really big crocs that get caught, die from the stress. I talked to the government trapper a couple years ago near Katherine, he stopped me and asked if I had a rifle, and would I please put a half grown buffalo out of its misery, it had been hit by a truck and was laying on the side of the road with a broken spine. He was there responding to complaints about a big croc in the creek where the local kids swim. He told me already that year(May)he had caught NINE maneating sized crocs out from under the Katherine bridge in the local swimming hole!
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Hello Woody,
The article is in Primitive Archer june/july 2008
Written by Billy Berger. It is interesting and has good photos. His thesis is that the small 'bird points' were possibly not for birds at all and gave good penetration on small and medium game, being narrow and probably shot from light weight bows. The Native American bows that exist all seem to be at or below 45# on average. This mechanical advantage fits part of Ashby's criteria for a good head on big game. Berger did get good penetration in most cases on a white tail doe carcass. That is 10". The points managed to break ribs going in or exiting,only one actually made it out the other side. All good enough on a white tail so far but what is concerning is this paragraph in his conclusions:
"I had hoped to recover the bird points after the test so that I could analyze their breakage; unfortunately most of them were obliterated after hitting bone." Also "the other bird points had broken out of their hafts when their bases snapped and were never found" I assume on impact with bone?
What this says to me is that the 'penetration' of some or all of the arrows that hit a rib going in was just the foreshaft and not a cutting arrow point at all. He recovered two points, one was undamaged and had not hit any bone at all. The other suffered an impact fracture. What seems to be shown is that small, sharp, stone points will go through a deer of about 150-170#. If they hit a rib bone they break while also shattering that rib bone. If that is the case it is only the arrow foreshaft that penetrates any further, not a lot of clean cutting edge in that to cause the blood loss and damage to vital organs. In pre-historical times a hunter may have hunted with several companions and as a group they could put four of five arrows like that into the animal. He describes a human skeleton found with 14 points in the rib cage. In modern hunting scenarios it is doubtful any station manager would be happy with that many hits from a bow as an objective, assuming it were possible to deliver them on a water buffalo. We will always be compared with guns like it or not. A buff would not stand about while you tried anyway!
It is a very interesting article and he set the experiment up carefully, keeping the carcase intact with internal organs, fresh and upright.. I think a similar set up with a waterbuff might be educational. I'd like to see the frame to hold it upright though!He used obsidian, north Georgia chert and Burlington chert. He had two sets of arrows with and without foreshafts on cane arrows. With foreshafts ave weight 461gr without ave313gr. Arrow speeds 139fps and 128fps out of a 40# stickbow.
chrisg
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I'd like to meet those hunters that can put a bull buff up on that frame! Its a pretty big deal much of the time to roll them over for photos. What crisg says makes a lot of sense and is inline with what I have read before. It never made sense to me that those really small points were called "bird" points, why would you use a really small point on a really small target, when I shoot at birds or other small game I use a really big judo point. Archeologists frequently come up with stuff that dosn't make any sense to someone with experience, but we assume, because they spent time in school for it that they must know what they are talking about. I also read somewhere years ago about the poundage of bows used in North America by the indians and inuits etc. and it very much depended on what game was in their area. In the areas where they only had small game and whitetails, they had no need for heavier bows, in areas with elk, moose, bison etc. they had much heavier bows, but somehow today, we often hear that ALL the indians used bows in the very lightweight range.
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Hey guys...First of all, I have no idea about having an idea concerning anything regarding hunting african game. You guys seem to spend a decent amount of time hunting in Africa. My question is how on God's wonderful creation do you guys afford it. Without being too nosy...are you very wealthy? or is there another way to get it done?
Thanks...I just had to ask.
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work hard, set out your priorities
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chrisg, thanks for the info on the article. Birdpoints are small and delicate -- nothing I would ever use. For that matter, points of that size aren't legal in any state I'm aware of...
There are several ethnographic accounts of plains indian bison hunts where arrows were aimed at the liver/diaphragm area. Heart and lungs were not the primary target. They put an arrow in the liver and moved on to another animal (these were horseback hunts). If those reports are accurate, it seems the hunters were completely aware of the limitations of the little side-notched points which were used to kill bison for thousands of years on the plains.
As for a human skeleton found with 14 points in the rib cage, that sort of thing has been seen several times. Seems to be ritualized torture. Way back when, I worked on a dig in Alabama. It was a Mississippian site (just prior to European contact). Found two adult males with no grave goods (a little unusual). Both had been beheaded, although skulls were included in the burial. Hands had been chopped off (not included) and the femurs broken. Trunk of the bodies were full of small triangular arrow points -- probably 50 or more in each. Quite a few were in the pelvic area. Nasty stuff. Seeing as how those folks used some of the symbolism and architectural ideas of the Aztecs, they probably shared some of the same gruesome cultural practices.
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Thanks Woody for clearing that up, I was aware of the horseback hunts, a skilled rider can get super close and shoot for soft areas. What I wanted to show was that in a modern hunting context this would be frowned upon leaving a bowhunter the choice of heart/lung as a target for a one shot kill, hence penetration through ribs is a must. The little bird points are delicate but brittle too which you mentioned. SO what options are there? A quartering away shot is not advised with steel points so it is supreme accuracy and threading the arrow between a rib? I must add I have no experience with using stone aside from building with it. I have tried knapping a bit, I was a potter for years and porcelain breaks like good agate or obsidian. I have your dvd and read a lot. I have a friend who knaps a bit, I am in awe of the skill required.
Those ritual torture graves sound grim...Life was ugly and brutal more so than we like to think.
chrisg
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kr,uuhhh!
chrisg, on a water buffalo, it would be impossible to put an arrow into the vitals, any of them, without hitting a rib. Broadside is actually the best angle, the ribs go all the way back to just in front of the pelvis and the ones aft of the shoulder muscle are three times as thick as the ones under the shoulder muscle.
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Geez, Rick, are you sure that even a 458 is enough??? It sounds like the only way to kill them is to call in an airstrike... That's a lot of armor wrapped around a nasty personality.
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I think I need to see a carcass.
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rick- what is your oppinion of the BEST spot to place an arrow. i can understand broadside is the best because you'll be hitting the ribs at 90 degrees reducing the chance of it glancing like it would quatering away. from your last post i can gather that the best place is say level with the point of the shoulder in elevation and between the point of the shoulder and the crease. right? would that be where the ribs are thinnest?
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Interesting discussion. I haven't heard anyone really refute my original position. With all due respect to the talented knappers out there: I have absolutely no doubt that it CAN be done. That still doesn't mean it should be. BTW, until you have carried the backup rifle for a bowhunter stalking truly dangerous game(hogs, black bears and the like don't count), you really don't have a feel for what it's all about. The ultimate responsibility belongs with the backup gun, not the bowhunter! I will frankly decline that responsibility unless I have total confidence in both the hunter and his equipment. As for shot placement on buffalo: broadside to no more than 10 degrees quartering away, 40% up from the bottom of the chest, and right in the shoulder crease. Every buff I've seen hit there was a one shot kill. With one lucky exception, every one I've seen hit anywhere else was a big, scary disaster. Cheers, Don
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Hi Rick, I agree 100%. Cape buff are built the same.
I am with you and Don. It would take a perfect fluke shot,and is too low a percentage chance.Thanks.
chrisg
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Ozy, what I tell my hunters and I tell them this way to make it as simple as possible, because when they get 18 yards from live buffalo, they are going to remember very very little. On a standing broadside buffalo, take a line straight up the center of the front leg and 1/3rd of the way up the body from the bottom of the chest. This will put the arrow in the center of a triangle, between the upper leg bone, the scapula(shoulder bone) and the thicker rib bones. It also puts the arrow at the top of the heart and into the lungs, really the ideal spot. The rib bones that lie beneath the shoulder muscle are less than half the thickness of those from the shoulder aft and they aren't so tight together. It is possible to shoot and arrow through the thickest part of the thickest ribs, I have done it, but it was with an 85# recurve and 970 grain arrows and a 160 Grizzly. And to give you and idea how big water buffalo are, that arrow is 33" long and on the broadside bull the arrow went in its full length until only the nock was visble and it didn't come out the other side!
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thanks rick, i'd rather go through more meat and thinner ribs
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clint,ya, arrows go through soft tissue great, bones not so well. There is actually quite a big difference in the skin and muscle between a mature herd bull and bulls that are not with a herd. I assume that the herd bulls are pumped up with testosterone all the time and their skin and neck and shoulder muscles are much thicker and heavier.
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a loner would do me just fine.
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Id go for 80# minimum, Osage Orange shafts, a coral point, possibly Madagasper Jasper. Definetely not an easily knappable rock like obsidian, glass, dacite, etc. The easier it knaps, the easier it will break. IMO
Good luck with it!
Avoid becoming buffalo "shoe" goo!
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I know Gene Wensel has a pre-historic bison vertibrae with a stone point embedded in the bone as far as any steel 2 blade, that is the only example of stone heads penetrating bone that I have personally seen (May have been an atl-atl dart head). I do know chert is some damn hard stuff, and stone penetrates easier than steel in flesh (I believe Saxton Pope and Fred Bear performed this type of testing.) My good friend and master knapper Dr Dwight Bundy has taken whitetails with stone and found penetration to be at least as good if not better than steel 2 blade heads. I also know that stone point will break and continue to cut/penetrate whereas a steel point that bends stops on the spot (Had a 150 class whitetail buck rib roll the tip on a WW this past fall and limit the 600 grain shaft to 2" penetration). I would bet if I had a stone tip that buck would be in the freezer, not still chasing does.
I do agree that testing should begin under controlled conditions with a fresh killed carcass. I also agree, that if/when I hunt large bovine I will go with a modified grizzly and heavy shaft. However, I also know Bob Munger killed 2 cape buff on 1 trip with a 50# kodiak and a bear razorhead (Luck WAS involved). As such, it is certainly posible to kill these wild bovine with less than freight train stopping momentum. FWIW, many researchers believe the Columbia mammoth (Much larger than African Elephants) was wiped out by humans, armed only with stone tipped sticks (Must have been Ed Ashbys ancestors).
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young bison skull. a spear point i imagine.
no relavance other than it penetrated some bone in this situation. the tang would have been broken by the spear waving around in the wind, i would think.
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/calfskullcloseup-600x4501.jpg)
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Cool photo Clinton.
Where'd this come from?
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just the weight of the spear would probably be enough to break it. or if the beast went down and rolled. any leaverage on the spear would snap it like that i would think.
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This is a great thread... :knothead: One thing to remember - there are no second chances when that wounded beast comes charging down on you! :eek: Stone was used befor steel, and with the proper testing we can re-learn the knowledge of our ancestors that has been lost in time... :campfire:
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yeah i can't wait to get into buffulo country and do some learning.
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i'm in buff country now!!
i'll be making up some primitive arrows shortly ready for some testing. i have 3 stone points that "knife river" kindly gave me. :notworthy: they are going to be hafted to some surewoods...thanks bob. they will be fletched with turkey feathers given to me by "northerncaliforniahunter" thanks juan. self nocks and points will be hafted with pine pitch and wallaby tail sinew.
i'll get some pics on here when i get them done.
hopefully i'll get are chance to get some testing done soon and share the results.....good or bad.
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:readit:
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Can't wait to see those arrows Clint!
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What about a neck shot?
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Jesse, a neck shot is a pretty marginal shot, as there's a lot that you can hit without putting the animal down quick enough or at all. That goes for any animal bigger than a rabbit (I guess).
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i hope you have your 416 rigby clean and sighted ben.
if you need it wait until he puts his head down to charge you and hit him between the shoulder blades in the spine that way you will not damage the cape and you put him down with one shot.
good luck.
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We haven't heard anything from clint in over a month, do you suppose that could be the answer to this? If so, hope he's ok. I was rooting for it to work.
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still playing with arrows, working out which one spines the best for the 3 points given to me by 'knife river'(300gr)
i think i've got it, but on the shaft i think it would work on the total arrow mass will be around 760-780gr. but i was thinking today about how to up the mass. i have stiffer shafts available. and thought about using that drilling jig thing to bore a hole behind the point to allow the insertion of some solder wire to add mass and hopefully make the stiffer shaft to spine good. i could possibly get it over 800gr this way.
would you guys think less of me having to resort to modern materials in the arrows? :saywhat:
i'm also still working on my pine pitch. at the moment it is too brittle. i've been told that bee's wax is the solution to this problem. hmmm...now i have to find some bee's wax.
also the title of the post is a bit misleading now. for all this i'm using my bob lee recurve not a self bow, (i don't have one)
just primitive arrows now.
the crux of this experiment is to find out whether the arrow can do it. if it does you just have to get a selfbow to match my recurves performance and you'd be right.
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Clint, Id like to speak with you some time about your findings/thoughts so far on the stone points, ill be in Aus next June with plenty of time on buffalo, and would like to do some testing with stone points.
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yeah i'll let you know my thoughts when i shoot something with one. be it dead or alive, buff or boar.
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okay i've got some testing arrows made.
they are points that woody blackwell kindly gave me. the feathers are turkey feathers that juan de la cruz aka 'northerncaliforniahunter'.....thanks guys :notworthy:
they are surewood douglas fir shafts 23/64". selfnocks. the points are hafted with pine pitch and sinew. the middle point was the same until i dropped it and broke the point and part of a lobe off :banghead: a little re knapping fixed it though.
the points are 4" long x 1 1/4" wide. total mass is approx 760-800gr.
the next freshly killed buffulo had better look out! :) (http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_1006.jpg)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_1008.jpg)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_1010.jpg)
these are the 1st primitive arrows i've ever made.
they fly great too!
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(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_1012.jpg)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_1001.jpg)
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My GAWD! Those are STUNNING!!!
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Congrats Clint,very nice arrows.Also congratulations to your outfitters
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cacciatore- what do you mean by outfitters?
thanks juan.
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The ones that provvide you your tools,your equipment
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Those look like they should work. I think the center one is the one I would use. Bill
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very nice Clint! they look great!
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SWEET
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Jeez, they look deadly. Damn!
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pretty arrows nice and simple. The bow?
chrisg
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looks like i won't get any testing done for a while. the wet season has just kicked in here. :banghead:
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Does that mean the game will be too spread out or will it just be too wet and muddy to get out there?
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both, wolfkiss. during the dry there is water in only a few places hence making their whereabouts some what predictible. during the wet they roam where they please. unlike during the dry if they need a drink or a wallow they just lay down where they are.
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okay, i shot a cow buffulo on the weekend and i was carrying the testing arrows with me so i was able to get some testing done....
this is her set up for the testing.
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/DSCF2907.jpg)
shots were taken at 15 meters. the 1st shot penetrated to about an inch behind the back of the point, that equates to about 5-6". it hit a rib and that's as far as it went. as you can see it broke the point off and the hafting was damaged. that brought this arrows testing days to an abrupt halt.
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/DSCF2908.jpg)
the 2nd arrow also hit a rib with similar a result.
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/DSCF2909.jpg)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/DSCF2910.jpg)
needless to say the testing session was a short one.
so there it is, perhaps the doubters are right. it looks as though taking a water buffulo with a stone point might prove beyond the capabilities of a primitive arrow.
a penny for your thoughts.....
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Interesting results
thanks for taking the time to put this up
How about next time taking a strong quartering away shot angle where you could get an entry behind the ribs angling the arrow up to the vitals ?
This was the shot i took on My Buff.. strong quartering away angle my arrow entered behind the ribs and stopped in the off side shoulder.
You would have to get complete arrow penetration though.
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here's a pic of my buff to show the strong quartering away angle i hit him,
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/Australia2205-1.jpg)
id be interested to see how far a stone point would penetrate at that angle..
here's the Buff with arrow setup
the kill arrow is still inside
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/Australia2209.jpg)
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Good testing, Clint!
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one of the limiting factors penetration wise with stone points is the shaft diameter. these shafts were 23/64". you need the width for the haft as stone points have thickness.
perhaps it's possible with a semi primitive arrow, ie- one with steel trade points.
at least my curiosity is satisfied now.
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pretty conclusive hey clint. bit of a shame really. i always had that feeling they might not handle it but i was really hoping they would!
what's your reasoning for the failure?
stone too brittle?
what were the weights of those arrows?
how did the fiberous skin go in the small serations of the stone point?
of course you couldn't use these points hoping to get between the ribs, but i wonder how it would go if you could sneak it in there?
did you do any testing of just skin?
is that enough questions for you? :)
are the heads repairable? would like to see some testing on couple swine too :)
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Clint, good on you for going the test route, glad you posted too. There is a world of difference between a big theory and hard evidence. I think your point about shaft diameter is a good one, the newer set ups all seem to indicate that very thin stiff shafts are better penetrators. As you say it is hard to mount a stone point that way. didn't Woody make a hybrid shaft with carbon and a wood footing? Thanks for keeping on with this and sharing your results .
chrisg
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Wow! nice head there Andy
Buff hide is really thick and heavy and with the ribs within the frame not a place u want to hit eg in a truck! When hitting any big animal on the road one should always aim the bull bar toward the last half of the animal if at all possible, at least there they will crumple, so as not to render the vehicle completely bugger up!
That heart shot of Clints was a pearler!
Bum penetration also works well with Buff! Ha ha they don't like that much. as does a shot in behind the ribs
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Originally posted by Rick McGowan:
I think I am going to start a program to abolish the improper use of the word "buffalo" when descibing BISON, someone screwed up a couple hundred years ago and we have had to deal with it ever since!
TATONKA! :smileystooges: :smileystooges:
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Awwww man! I was hoping to see some red on those feathers! Thanks for posting Clint! (and good on ya for trying on a dead buff first! That would of been one pissed-off critter!)
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I think the point was too big and not pointed enough. The "Bird" points of antiquity were really heavy game points. Saxton pope and art young, as well as others (and friends who use stone points)found stone points penetrated better than steel points. Not to pick, but that point looked too thick and too big.
Cheers
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In some ways I agree, the "bird points" would allow for a smaller diameter shafts if nothing else...
Lucas
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Originally posted by michaelschwister:
I think the point was too big and not pointed enough. The "Bird" points of antiquity were really heavy game points. Saxton pope and art young, as well as others (and friends who use stone points)found stone points penetrated better than steel points. Not to pick, but that point looked too thick and too big.
Cheers
Did you see the "before" pics of the points on page 8? I'm not sure how they could get "more pointed" without being as fragile as a hypodermic needle. The l/w ratio was real close to 3:1, which is generally regarded as optimal for steel points. You can't see it in the photos, but the cross-section was subtly diamond-shaped, which increases strength and reduces wind planing.
As for shooting a water buff with something as small as a bird point (something in the range of 1" length and 5/5" width), yeah, you might get it to slide between the ribs, but there won't be a lot of cutting surface to work on the lungs. What would you plan on finishing him off with -- a .22 short? ;)
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believe me, those points were not thick! they are 1/4" thick, which is about as thin as they come for the width that they are.
the trouble with small bird points is how do you use them and still end up with an 800gr arrow while keeping it 'primitive'? it would be hard to find an ultra heavy shaft that would spine ok with a light point out of a heavy bow.
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Way to go,
You may have decided not to pursue this adventure,but your experiments were entertaining and I'm sorry if they're over.
I was rooting for you.
Robert
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I see your point
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I have killed hundreds of bovine, many over a ton with a .22 short blank driving a captive bolt. Well technically I killed them with a knife through the carotid, the .22 short was used to stun them so they could be rolled and hung and stuck............
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Originally posted by michaelschwister:
I have killed hundreds of bovine, many over a ton with a .22 short blank driving a captive bolt. Well technically I killed them with a knife through the carotid, the .22 short was used to stun them so they could be rolled and hung and stuck............
That's very interesting, but you may have missed my intended sarcasm. If a guy shoots a wild asiatic water buff with something as inadequate as a 50-60 grain stone point, will he try to get himself out of a tricky spot with something else equally inadequate?
I can already hear guys saying the native americans killed tens of thousands of bison with tiny stone points. They certainly did, but that's an apples and oranges argument (i.e., they also used blind jumps, box arroyos, parabolic sand dunes, heavy stockades, horses, etc.).
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Even though the natived did kill many bison with stone points I'd bet there were more lost than recovered.
the chef
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I think the job could be done with a stone point, but it would need a gut shot, patience and tracking. This is not really humane considering the alternatives, but it most certainly could be done. Given Clint's excellent results with Buffalo, I reckon he's the man for the job if a quick kill shot could be done. Then again, maybe it would be easier to sneak up on it when it is sleeping and hit the buffalo on the head with a big rock? ;)
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Good work Clint,
cheers
pat
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Guess this must be the most primitive technique I've seen on TG so far...
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either way and regardless of outcome it was good viewing watching you along the way mate ...
tis all good and waiting for the next experiments .
and you know that your wondering how thiose stone heads are gonna go through a Sambar aren't you....
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yes, yes that would be good!
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dryfired have you seen how buff fight it would need to be a rock the size of a vw beetle.
i'm glad you did your testing on a dead one clint as i think your backup gun would have had both your hands full and the dunlop volley's would have been kicking up dust looking for the tree and sorry it did not work as i think everyone hoped but it looks like your steel broadheads are working just fine
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Hickory shafts, shorter/thicker heads???
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i'm heading to cape york on the weekend for 2 weeks and i'm hoping to put one into a scrub bull. they are much thinner skinned and lighter boned. watch this space.......