Trad Gang
Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: WLThomas IV on December 17, 2003, 02:31:00 PM
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Anybody know of anyone who has killed an elephant with a bow? Didn't Monty Browning do it?
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Yeah it been done, but Monty hasn't done it, at least not yet. He was going to, but at the moment it has fallen through. It has been done by several people, one of them did it while I was in S. Africa, but I wasn't present at the time. They did a lot of testing and came to the conclusion that if you hit a rib, you were done, because they could not get an arrow through a rib and the chances of hitting a rib are about 50/50. Rick
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Thanks for the quick reply Rick. I substitute teach, long-term, along with three other jobs. All this darn work is getting in the way of my hunting too. But anyway, I had several kids today looking at my bowhunting mags, since we really don't have enough time to start anything else before Christmas break. Several were really impressed with the animals that could be taken with a bow and arrow and I told them that to my knowledge, most all large (land) animals in the world, including elephants and rhinos have been taken with a bow. One kid didn't believe elephants could be taken that way and we had a discussion about it. He's still not convinced. I told him Howard Hill had done it and I thought Monty Browning had but obviously I was wrong about that one. Also, I saw an article about some fellow shooting a 90# Compound I believe that had shot one and supposedly got complete pass-through. I kinda doubt that part. But I also read fairly recently that Chuck Adams had done been asked to try it and wounded one or two and maybe had to finish one with a rifle??? He did eventually kill one but his conclusion was that they shouldn't be attempted with bow and arrow for the reasons you stated. I need to find that article and show it to that kid. Funny though, I would have thought a rhino would be more difficult than an elephant; not that they are pushovers themselves, huh? Oh well, gotta go for now. Thanks again.
Walter Lea Thomas IV
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Oh, I forgot to mention, I believe Chuck Adams used an arrow of some 650 or 700 grains, if I remember correctly. Little light for an elephant, wouldn't you say?
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If Chuck used an arrow that light, he must be losing his mind. I have heard of the guy that got a passthrough on the elephant, but don't know the particulars. The reasons I heard that rhino are easier is that, you can see the ribs on them, so its possible to aim for the soft tissue in between, you can't see the ribs on an elephant. Monty did shoot a rhino, due to circumstances it had to be finished off with a rifle. Also a rhino is not nearly as hard to sneak up close to than is an elephant. Rick
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Rick, I'm going to check and see if I can find that article. It's in one of my recent Bowhunting Magazines I believe. May be Peterson's Bowhunting.
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According to his book, the arrow was 830. Still a little light for elephant, IMO.
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BTW, when I was in collecge, I had a professor that had spent some time in Africa, in the Congo in this case, he told me that there were natives in the Congo that took elephants with not bows, but axes!! :eek: He told me that there were the only tribes that took elephants, by sneaking up on them and then hamstringing them, then killing by spears the imobilized elephant. He did say waht the mortality rate was, but I don't think that it is a "traditional" sport that I would want to take up! :scared:
He sis report that in this 20 years in Africa, they were the only group that killed healthy elephants that he knew of.
chuck
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I just know I'm gunna get flamed for this, but can anyone tell me what the attraction is for killing an elephant?
You don't eat it, you don't skin it, and ivory is a banned export (I think?) so what's the 'big' deal?
I mean, Okay, so it's a BIG animal, with BIG teeth, but is that all there is? Sounds awfully like horn porn to me.
I woudn't be so worried but there's a 'big' cost to us, PR-wise, as hunters, given the whale-like sanctity afforded elephants by the general populace.
I could be totally off track here, and I'm willing to be educated, so burn away!
Erron
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I've only reading to go by. There are some authors who felt they were a very interesting animal to hunt, Elmer Keith mentions this, and many of the classical writers. Interesting not because they were part of the big five, or might stomp you, but a challenging animal to sort out just as whitetails are, though doubtless different in terms of the details. I think there is a tendancy to assume that any animal that large is easy to find, but this diesn't appear to be the only view. However this is one animal where you are likely to be overguided in modern Africa, so how much you actualy get to hunt it any more, I don't know.
On whether they should be shot, they are one species that because of the ivory is under tremendous pressure, and without some counterballancing monetary value from hunting they are likely to be cruely exploited. Also despite their being under pressure, this does not mean they are rare everywhere, so there is still management to be undertaken.
There are at least two ways of looking at their intrinsic value. One would say they aren't human so forget any special status. Another says they are a higher order of inteligence and so forth, and they shouldn't be touched. Take your pick.
The question of whether they are a proper archery target is a hard one, some say yes, and others say no. As long as the killing is legitimate, the elephant itself gains some advantage by being only pursued by an archer, since at least the first initiating shot depends on a proper bowkill setup. So I don't imagine the elephants would complain about it. There are at least split opinions as to whether it is a stunt shooting them, or something likely to succeed. I don't know which camp is correct.
I just finished reading Chuck's biography. i think that 650 is closser to what he shoots regular game with. I think he used one XX inside another, and it would be hard to come up with 650 on that basis. Sadly, I have returned the book.
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850 grains is to light for buffalo in my experience, let alone elephant, but a lot of guys can't get by the fast is better.
Erron, you are way off base, ALL of an elephant gets eaten and you can import legal hides and ivory. Despite elephants status there are to many in some areas, it actually isn't that there are to many elephants, but there are to many people for the elepants to roam the huge areas that they traditionally covered. As a result they destroy all the vegetation in an area and it dosn't have time to recover. In other areas without hunting, elephants have no value, in fact they are a liability to the locals as they raid their crops and threaten their lives, so the poachers become the local heros. Where you have legal hunting the locals protect the elephants as "cash cows". I have heard of one area that has satellite dishes and computers in their grass hut schools paid for with money from legal elephant hunting. Nobody can explain the attraction of hunting animals that can kill you, either you have to do it or you want no part of it. Some of the guys that are only ego driven change their minds when you get close enough to hear them breath and can count their eyelashes. Don't forget that there are one hell of a lot of dead guys that were hunting dangerous game with big rifles, you aren't going to stop the charge of ANYTHING with a bow. Rick
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i did a rifle hunt this year in Africa. I was going for a cape buffalo. I was offered a chance at an elephant cow. I was unsure because of all you hear.
Well after I got my buff we started elephant hunting. I found it to be a great hunt! Days of tracking ,its like trying to find a certain whitetail while worrying about being stepped on by one of his friends. When after several days we finally came up on the group we were looking for( I was hunting for a problem animal and in this group of 30 + I was to take either an old cow or male that had killed some folks or one that had a bad leg) we were less than 50 yards from the group before you could see them. I think its because our eyes arent used to looking for something so big. Once I saw one I was amazed as they kept appearing. Now we had to watch the herd and wait until one of the target animals was open for a shot. Now keep in mind if the wind went wrong the entire herd could have run away are run AT you! It was a very tense wait! The trackers were very nervous. Once the group fed in our direction and all of us took off full speed to a spot where we wouldnt be winded. Then we sat there hoping they didnt feed to where we were and smell our sent. A hunt that I wasnt sure i wanted to do turned out to be the hunt I will always think about.
Rick is correct every bit of meat was taken in about 10 hours nothing was there but a grease spot. I was a local hero for a few days everyone would come out to the road a wave as we passed.
I couldnt bring any ivory or skin back from mine as it was a PAC elephant (problem animal control)But I hunt more for the memory and I got great ones.
In some areas the elephants have destroyed the vegatation too many for the land. The people have little and when their crops are in they must post guards to try and keep elephant out with sticks!
A hunt that I was uneasy about taking because of preconcieved ideas turned out to be a hunt that I wish i could do every year!
I will say that in my oppinion elephant seem to die easy if hit right. My PH said he would rather guide a bowhunter for elephant that buffalo. Remember even when using a rifle they want you within 25 yards.
Dean
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Sorry to take so long getting back to this.
Rick and Tonto, thanks for bringing me up to speed on the situation. The problem for hunter then, as ever, seems to be getting that information across to the masses. Not having ever hunted Africa, I had only the mass media to go on, and they increasingly don't give the hunter's point of view.
thanks again,
Erron
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Erron, we will never change the minds of anti-hunters, they don't want to confuse their opinions with the facts anyway. It is the non-hunters that we need to give the facts to. I've had people give me real attitude about hunting until I started giving them the facts and then they say, "how come no one has ever told us this"?
Tough to do with the state of the media. Ric
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Walter,
In answer to you're original question, I have 4 bowkills on video;
Howard Hill in "Tembo"
Fred Bear in "Mozambique Game Trails"
Bill Negley in "Moments of Truth"
and Gary Bogner, who uses a wheely bow in "Passport to Africa"
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a couple of bits of info . Kruger Park is the largest wildlife park in RSA (south africa) . with at one end the large tourist hotels for the eco tourists at the other side of the park is a large slaughtering planrt where they process (can ,pack) if i remember right 3000 elephant and other animmals i presume a year .
africa has a shortage of protien so nothing is wasted .when we kill an animal we fiels dress it and drag it out to a vechicle .in africa no field dressing for smaller game (antelope to zebra ) carried to a truck or winched aboard and dressed in a room back at camp . what isn't taken by owner of property or PH and sold or fed to client is taken by trackers and workers . almost everything is utilized except maybe waterbuck !!
now i am large so i figure i am a 4 bucket man , most people who mess up on hunting elephant fit in 3 buckets , holds the dirt and twigs that are mixed in also .when elephants get through with you not a lot left to collect .cheaper trip home maybe ----- herb-- always looking for a cheap way to hunt LOL
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I HEAR THEY HAVE GREAT FISH RECIPIES IN S. AFRICA
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Don't forget BOB SWINEHEART
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There was a young man that shot a cape buffalo with a Black Widow recurve and the story was in Traditional Bowhunter some years ago.
He later went back and got an elephant with a compound. Had a pass through. Didn't hit a single bone/rib and passed through the lung/heart area. That story was in Safari Club magazine.
He always hunts with his dad.
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Henry,
That young man is Steve Kobrine, I have met him at the SCI convention several times. He did shoot a recurve in his early days. He now shoots a 95lb Darton I believe. Many, SCI bow hunters have killed elephant with compounds, Herb mentioned Gary Bogner, you mentioned Steve, Archie Nesbitt got his in 2002 and Dr. Adrian Devilliers has also shot one with bow I believe. There are others, not sure of names.
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Hunt it,
I found the article and you're right, it was Steve Kobrine. He shot 3 cape buffalo and a hippo on the same trip. His dad took buffalo and an elephant, but he hunts with a rifle.
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Howdy,
FYI Craig Ekin (Howard Hill Archery) is manufacturing a limited number of Hill Elephant Broadheads. Hill took 3 elephants and a Rhino with this head. 260gr. measures 1.25" X 4". It's not listed on the web site but just call him and he will fix you up.
406-363-1359 ;)
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Rick and Dean, good to see you guys. I have amazingly only heard about tradgang on the last hunt...week ago.
I took tonto on that elephant and it was apart from great fun, also scary some times...lukily tonto can shoot straight.
Some facts for those interested.
Somehwere around 40 000 elephant need to be shot/removed from Botswana as they pose a serious threat to the ecology. They push over large trees and thereby destroying forests and the subsequent top soil. Desert is the end result as you can never replace the top soil again. Taking into consideration all the other plant, animal and insect species down with it, it makes it rather scary.
Where we hunt in Zimbabwe, and believe me it is NOT a prime area, there are 2500 elephant just in that one consession. We remove about 5 elephant anually there...so it is quite light on the elephant population.
The elephant we see in Parks and Zoos are 100% different from wild elephant.
I have been invited by a client to Matetsi in 2006 to bow hunt elephant as he wants to be a witness. I probably would use my Matthews safari at 100# with a 950 gr arrow (31"). I am sure I will get enough penetartion. (This will only happen if we have all the permits)
I would rather guide a bow hunter on elephant than on a buffalo hunt....depending on the hunter and the sircumstances that is.
One thing for sure, if you hunt the wild elephant in Zimbabwe or Mozambique, it is not goin to be a walk in the park and preparations would not be a lightly taken affair.
You can find yourself inside a herd of 100 elephant where the grass is so tall that you cannot see them...dangerous is not the word.
Monty Browning has my respect and so Gary Bogner. Monty went, I think, five times before the right opportunity arose for him. And I stand corrected, he did not have a rifle guarding him...correct me if I am wrong.
Aboutr all those old timers shooting elephant with 70-80# recurves/longbows....i thought I saw some queries on that.
Depsite the fact that regulations state that a bow hunter must be guided by a rifle carrying Professional Hunter on dangerous game, I would still like to hear what the hunters have to say about it. If we need a rifle to back us up, doesn't it defeat the purpose of being a bow hunter.
Level playing field between bow hunter and quarry, isn't it what we stand for?
This is not intended as an argument, but rather what I would use to fight the rifle hunters when they "attack" us for carrying bows when hunting the dangerous animals.
If I am asked whether I would guide a bow hunter on a Buffalo or Elephant hunt, carrying only my bow as the back-up weapon, I would definitely say no. Remember as a PH I would be responsible for the client's safety.
I personally would not want to have a rifle with me on a buffalo/elephant bow hunt. As a hunter/bow hunter I would rather take the consequences.....or not hunt them at all.
I see a lot of people brag about shooting buffalo and lion with a bow in South Africa. I can tell you the true facts about some of those hunts. That is there choice and perfectly legal, but I hate to see tape measures coming out and braggings about SCI #1 or top 10. Let them come with me and tonto to Zimbabwe to hunt wild buffalo and elephant and you will get a different story. We measure (weigh) the hunter there and not the hunted.
Shooting a buffalo at 10 yards from a bow hunting blind is not an achievement in my book.
The guy who shot that elephant and got a clean pass through...that is the truth, I will back him up. There are also many other hunts that are 100% factual.
I can be e-mailed at [email protected] for more information on elephant.
Kruger
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Thanks Kruger!!
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In the latest "Bowhunter" issue, there is a Rocket Broadhead add with some hunters that took elephants and a hippo with their bows...but they all used compounds.
Howard Hill's "Wild Adventure" has a great story about his elephant, as does "Fred Bear's Field Notes"
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Just To clarify the confusion on the gear used by Chuck Adams, he used a 100 pound Hoyt Super Slam compound bow. His arrows were 830 grains and composed of a 16 inch XX78 2117 shaft epoxied inside a full length XX78 2317, backed behind a Zwickey 2-blade Black Diamond broadhead. His bow lurched them forward at 220 fps. and produced around 90 ft.-lbs. of KE. Yet, his mammoth missle was stopped dead by one of his bulls ribs, and the animal was stopped by a perfect behind the ear, 15 yard shot from his guide's .458 bolt.
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The Elephant and Hippo were taken with the 145g teflon coated 2 blade "Eclipse broadhead. I have been useing this two blade broadhead for several years now and love it!. Here is the story and pictures. Mike
http://eclipsebroadheads.com/index.htm
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Hi every body, in this months issue of Africa's Bowhunter and Archer- page22 is an article by Rassie Erasmus of "Archery Africa" where he tell of an elephant he shot in a hunting area next to the Matoesadona National Park. He shot and killed her with one shot through the heart, with a modified Mathews Black Max 2 and a 850gr arrow.
regards "The Dutchman"
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I'm, sorry this happend in Zimbabwe this year.
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Don't forget BOB SWINEHEART
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Hi Kruger! Sorry It took me so long to look at this thread, but you posted while I was in Australia and I have been pretty busy since I got back. I don't have any experience hunting elephant, but I have a fair bit on water buffalo and I know I wouldn't want to back up a bowhunter with my bow and I haven't had anyone suggest that they would want it either. I would hunt them by myself without a rifle back up, but then I only have myself to worry about. My mate in OZ nearly got himself done in by an unprovoked cow buff while guiding a bowhunter and there is a very good chance that someone would have died had the rifle not been there and it was a close call even then. I had a close call with a bull in a bad mood from who knows what, but the terrain was in my favor. Anyone that thinks a backup rifle makes a dg hunt "safe" hasn't got a clue.
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G'day guys, [g'day Erron how are you doing, if you don't ask mate you'll never know hey?]there's a few lifetimes of experience in these posts and I'd like to tap a bit if I could. First I'd like to ask a question that I hope someone may clear up for me. Now I'd like it made clear that I'm a Howard Hill fan and have read most of his books and shot his long bows. Over the years i've heard it said that his Elephant [not sure if it was his first or not] was shot in the knee first before he drew on it? True or False?? I was also just going to comment on hunting danerous game with or without back-up. I can only pass comment on our Water Buffalo I have bowhunted them both with and more recently without back-up. I totally agree with Rick, the terrain has a lot to do with the call. My hunting mates and I gave it a whole bunch of thought before we left the .458 back in camp for the entire hunt. We had all been hunting together for a bunch of years and knew what we were up against. Two Buffalo, two arrows no drama but I'm the same as you Rick, I would NOT do that hunt with a client or someone I didn't know REAl well without a back-up and when you have to close that bolt you know it ain't good.
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Bob Swinehart did elephants too, see the books "Sagittarius" or "In Africa" by him. He used qute the same gear Howard Hill did.
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According to his website, Tink Nathan, the creator of Tink's #69 Buck Lure, has taken three elephants with a bow (it doesn't say whether or not he uses tradtional equipment. He sounds extremely accomplished as a hunter, and yet I never see him discussed at trad Gang, so I assume he must use a compound, but the question was, "has anyone killed an elephant with a bow?"
Here's an excerpt from the site:
"Tink's hunting accomplishments equal his volunteer service and dedication to archery and bowhunting. He completed 14 African Bowhunts before settling in South Africa in April 1991. Nathan held #1 World Records in SCI and Rowland-Ward record books for bow kills too numerous to mention. He is widely regarded as the World's Most Experienced Living Bowhunter. He is the first Bowhunter to take all 15 species of the South Pacific in 1986, The First South Pacific 15 Bowhunting Grand Slam.. Tink has taken 3 Elephants and 17 Buffalo with Bow & Arrow only. First bowhunter to ever bag the Banteng with bow and arrow. First bowhunter to take a Sambar Deer with bow. First and only bowhunter to take the Buffalo Grand Slam with Bow (taking American Bison, ten Asian Water Buffalo, African Water Buffalo and three Cape Buffalo and the rare Banteng).Tink has taken more species of deer with the bow and arrow than anyone, living or dead. Tink has taken more Buffalo with a bow than anyone in the world, 18 total."
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Hawken, you never hear Tink mentioned here, because they have rules here about treating everyone here with respect and nobody that knows Tink can do that. I've heard about some of the buffalo he shot, you don't want to know.
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Interesting...thanks for the heads-up Rick. I never even heard of him before I found his website, while looking into African bowhunting safaris.
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LOL Rick.
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Rick..I may have a story or two to tell you on the plane RE: the above reference ;)
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Tinks here at the SHOT show signing autographs, anybody want one?
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dont forget bob swinehart and another young man by the name of kovine (i think) he used a 100lb black widow recurve ... swinehart used a longbow of 110lbs if i remember correctly ...
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Hawken,
If you go to the regular Bowsite forums, you can get all the Tink you want. He has a very interesting writing style :D . From what I can tell, he is the "original" Chuck Adams.
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Something I wanted to say should not go left undsaid. There may be a unique opportunity toward the common good if one is doing a service to feed the hungry. That deserves honorable mention. It is a dignified reason for a hunt. But mostly, I see lots of trophy hunting as nothing more than big buisness.
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Here's one of the Howard Hill Elephant Heads that came from Howard Hill Archery. The second photo is one of Howard's actual Elephant Arrows!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/Longbow1415/HH.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/Longbow1415/Howards_elephant_arrow.jpg)
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Nice! Sign me up for one (the arrow). Where did you get the pictures? Thanks man.
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Spent 4 days with Craig at Howard Hill Archery in Hamilton, Montana last September. I purchased the Elephant Head broadhead, and Craig was kind enough to show me a load of Howard's personal items! I even got to hold one of Howard's bows!
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Verlyn P. Owens killed a bull elephant with a 100# recurve and 1000 grain arrows in 1967.
Frank J. Liska shot an elephant in the late 1950's, but left Africa before finding it. It's likely the elephant died, was recovered for its ivory, but not returned to Liska.
I suspect there may be another or so taken with traditional bows.
One reason for Negley's claim, that Hill and Swinehart had their "filmed" elephants shot in the knee prior to bow shooting them, was to be able to film them, as elephants are notorious for leaving the scene of the crime after being hit. This is a notion I've found repeated several times in material devoted to bow hunting elephants.
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I had a chance to read Negley's book this winter. It was a borrowed copy, signed and numbered by Mr. Negley.
Simply fascintating to read and I stand in awe of anyone who enters the African bush with intentions of poking huge, thick critters with a stick.
The guy has gotta be wearing a XXXXL jock strap!
My best,
Scotty
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Howard Hill did it with one arrow. check out the video tembo great work on that old footage
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Someone, tell me if I am wrong, but I have heard Howard Hill shot an elephant that was actually chained with a ring around its foot. Iwas told youcan see it in the video if ya look real close. Shawn
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I didn't know that or see it
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G'day guys, I asked the question about Howard Hill's elephant a while back and thanks for the replies. I have a signed copy of " Howard Hill The Man and the Legend" by Craig Ekin,it's more then 20 years old. I've read the start of that book where Mr Hill stalks and kills a rogue Elephant with a single arrow to my son [ hopefully he will get to read it to his son one day too] and a bunch of other kids countless times.It's an inspiring story that never fails to have the kids full attention.When they look me in the eye and ask did Mr Hill really kill that Elephant with one arrow and no big gun,I'd just like to know that I was telling them the facts. I haven't had the pleasure of reading " Sagitarius" but I'll endevour to get a hold of a copy soon. I have a copy of Mr Negley's video where to shoots the Elephant with a single arrow, excellent stuff. Down here in Australia info like this is hard to get a hold of, you guys at "Trad Gang" fill a huge void. Thanks and good hunting.
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hey, guys. i read an article once about guys who wanted small shaft diam. to cut down on friction but still wanted a heavy arrow. they ended up cutting a piece of steel cable the exact length of the CARBON arrows they were using and slid it inside of the shaft before they added the nocks and inserts. they claimed 1000 grns and a complete passthrough. ( dont know how much of this was fabricated)