Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: brohymn2 on July 01, 2015, 09:17:00 AM
-
Other than shooting a metric ton of arrows. Just wondering if there is a process that will speed things up
-
IF!! There is a short cut, IMO, it would be learning a good consistent shot sequence -- WITHOUT aiming at anything. Then once learned, starting to shoot at something to actually hit will be easier.
Directing the arrow to a target is just ONE of several steps in a shot sequence, regardless of the "directing" technique. Ideally, that step will occur AFTER reaching anchor.
What is labeled "instinctive" is an aiming method and NOT a shooting style. It is just one of many (legitimate) ways to direct the arrow to the bull's eye.
But, shooting LOTS of arrows is very nearly a requirement, and MAYBE even more so than other "directing" techniques. I don't think there is any GOOD way to "speed things up."
Arne
-
Yes. Do NOT shoot a metric ton of arrows. Approach learning methodically. Watch Arnes and jimmys videos, develop a solid shot sequence and get a coach/mentor if at all possible.
Do not do as I did. I picked up a bow at a young age and developed many bad habits. They are difficult to break once established. This site is a great source.
-
When I said "do not shoot a ton", I meant do not just fling arrows. By all means follow Arnes advice.
-
Thanks guys figured as much
-
As Ken Beck told us in a class several years ago, "One of the disadvantages of instinctive shooting is that you have to shoot a lot of arrows to get any good at it. One of the advantages of instinctive shooting is that you get to shoot a lot of arrows."
I enjoy shooting lots of arrows, but I need a purpose in doing it other than just building up my back muscles. Becoming accurate in any form of traditional archery certainly provides that purpose, and instinctive archery rewards shooting lots of arrows more than most.
-
There are no shortcuts. Besides, that would mess up the journey.
-
Best way I have heard to do it is as follows. This is not something I thought up or take credit for. I read it somewhere.
1. Put 6 separate dots on a target.
2. Start at 5yds and focus only on the dot and shoot an arrow at every dot. Continue until all 6 arrows are touching the dot you shot them at. Do not move back until you can hit the dot with each arrow.
3. Move back to 15yds and repeat step 2
4. Move to 10yds and repeat.
5. Move to 20yds.
Do not look at the arrow just the dot. By moving back 10 then forward 5 it is supposed to help your brain figure the distances. You can go back as far as you are able to still focus on the dot.
Good form and mechanics will speed up this process. Instinctive Archery Insights by Jay Kidwell is a good read for instinctive shooting as well.
-
Howard Hill wrote about split image aiming or secondary sighting in his book and articles. Byron Ferguson had a film where he put his secondary sight spots on the target. That would only work for me at quite long ranges. No sighting method is much good without repeatable form. One of the no-nos is to look at the arrow. After a time the relative position of the arrow in your secondary vision will kick in. I think even if one follows the aiming of Ferguson or Hill, it will all become second nature in time and be more like instinctive aiming. I knew one recurve shooter that had a pin set at twelve yards that was quite long so he could cant his bow, and another at thirty yards that was closer in. He did not look at the pins, but used them as relative brackets for where his general aim would fall. On field targets he was a better shot than me at the time, so I went to a four pin sight and used them the same way. I was doing a lot of target work at the time so my form needed very little adjustment.
-
What Arne said.
Consistent form lets all the arrows travel the same way. That's the "hard" part. Once that happens, directing them to a specific spot is the "easy" part.
I describe myself as a "gap" shooter but, when my form is on and I'm shooting well, I often don't really remember paying much visual attention to anything other than the target. Instinctive?
Even in Olympic shooting/coaching, they deemphasize aiming and talk about just looking at the target through the aperture.
-
As someone who is just starting out and learning this as well and seeing improvements I can tell you a few things I've noticed that have help me get better.
1. break down your form, bow hand, placement of fingers on string, bow elbow, release/follow through. I found that when I was off I started breaking down these form elements and now can tell why my shot is off. really helps me tune my form
2. Shoot smaller sets of arrows the longer you shoot. I start with 8-10 arrows at first but as I shoot I start to remove arrows(1-2 every 30-40mins) until I'm down to 2-3 arrows. noticed it helps keep better form and groups tighter.
3. Take breaks often, I'll shoot 20 arrows roughly then take a solid 5-7min break. Giving your muscles a break helps with grouping and consistency
4.small dots.....I find that if I put a small flower or leaf on my target to shoot at I shoot much better. Just being able to have a clear visible spot really made a difference for me.
5. Have fun! if your not enjoying it and getting frustrated then your never going to be able to reach your full potential. if you shoot really well at 10 yards but are struggling at 20 then make sure that when your getting frustrated to go back to 10 yards and enjoy shooting. I find by doing this it helps me stay positive and motivated.
Best of luck!
-
The best advice I can think of for someone wanting to learn instinctive (other than not being over-bowed) is to not overcomplicate their approach.
Regardless of style or method, shooting lots of arrows won't help if your form is bad to start with. But, good form does NOT mean complicated form.
Aside from overbowing, overthinking the how-to of instinctive shooting has probably caused more target panic than any other aspect. Aspiring to achieve gold medal precision with instinctive shooting isn't practical or necessary for what it's designed for, which is primarily close-range hunting or recreational fun. In other words this isn't olympic target archery...no need to make it so.
Basic needs:
1.) Form that establishes good alignment;
2.) The ability to mentally center the spot to be hit;
3.) Learning to trust your sight picture as the key to directing the shot; and
4.) Liberal use of common sense during 1, 2, 3.
Above all, when it comes to learning how to shoot don't believe everything you hear/see/read on the internet. :) Consider the above items, believe in yourself, then go shoot/improve/ENJOY the experience.
-
I have only been shooting for about a year, but after I adopted Arne's teachings my shooting improved radically. Watch his movies and make your form stick, that is the key to hitting the target.
-
Over the years I've become a dedicated stringwalker for competition and fixed crawl hunter for while in the woods. An "aimer" if you will..
However, I started instinctive for a couple years, moved to gapping for a year, then back to instinctive for a couple more years.
I was a good but not great shot during my initial stent at instinctive aiming. I noticed that my accuracy greatly improved when I came back to instinctive aiming for the second time. And I have two theories as to why:
1. Gap shooting requires a solid form. No creeping, no peeking, regimented shot sequence to ensure your gaps are being held steady and that your arrow's trajectory is consistent shot to shot.
2. When initially instinctive aiming, I think my sub-conscious mind was looking at the entire sight picture (bow hand, arrow, riser, etc) as a whole in reference to the target. After consciously gapping for a year and coming back to instinctive aiming, I believe that I trained my subconscious to focus on the tip of the arrow only in relationship to the target as opposed to the entire sight picture in relationship to the target. My subconscious then had the opportunity to use the tip of my arrow which requires the least amount of math to accurately place in reference to the target.
So after a quick stent in Gapping, my instinctive abilities sky-rocketed due to learning a solid and repeatable form and shot sequence required to gap accurately as well as training my subconscious to use the tip of the arrow rather than the whole sight picture while aiming.
Ever since, when helping along a new traditional archer I always start them off gapping for the first 500 to 1000 arrows. This helps them learn their arrows trajectory and understand the flight of the arrow much quicker all the while helping their subconscious along on a steeper learning curve. Form and shot sequence benefits are attained during the first 1000 arrows as well. Then we transition into instinctive aiming from there.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Shoot straight and have fun.
-
Same here as cpnhgnlngct, began as an "instinctive" shooter and was not consistent at all. Later I switched to gapping and worked alot on form and shot sequence. After a year or so I wanted a simpler system and went back to instinctive and had much greater success.
I think this goes to show that no matter what your aiming system is, it isn't gonna be consitent without repeatable form.
BTW I am a solid fixed crawl guy for all hunting now.
-
I may get vehemently objected to here, but, what the heck.
In all forms of archery, shooting, throwing etc there is some form of aiming that takes place. In the highest form, you have a scope with cross hairs that will allow you to know exactly where a bullet will end up ( IF you do the rest f the sequence right and are at correct yardage), At the other end of the spectrum is "instinctive".
Here, you still see a sight picture and you still aim, but the aiming is not normally done by putting a crosshair on something, or a sight pin, or an arrow point, and there is no purposeful gapping.
There IS however a sight. A vision. After being successful at doing things a certain way, your brain finds a certain vision is what is needed to successfully hit a target. Distance doesn't matter because it is all figured in.
You need to determine what that sight picture looks like, then use it. You can do a lot of other things, but that one thing will make your shooting better.
Note. . you STILL need to have good repeatable form, including ( but not limited to) Hand contact with bow handle, hand contact with string / arrow, draw to some anchor, release with either no movement of movement directly back due to use of back muscles.
ChuckC
-
If you don’t have solid form nothing will help you get to the next level, before you worry about a type of aiming, tuning, gear etc etc etc develop a rock solid form.
I say this not to stir the pot or to offend anyone but it's my honest opinion and "I" truly believe it could help many enjoy traditional archery/bow hunting.
Here is my 2 cents
I played the instinctive game for 2 1/2 years, and I can honestly say I wasted every day I spent guess as to where the arrow might go... I hate it when people use the "aiming a baseball/football" analogy, come on really!!! Yes anyone can through a baseball and get it close, but how many people do you PERSONALLY know that are good? And I mean MLB good not just played in high school???? Oh yeah, that's right zero (0) nada... So let's say 1 in a couple hundred thousand people can throw a baseball well enough to consistently put it right where they want it so why on earth do people really think they and everyone else has some magical raw hidden Harry Potter bull crap talent that will allow you to hit anything you just look at... Get real.... The only instinctive arrow anyone has ever shot was there very first arrow. If you claim to shoot instinctive and you do shoot well, there are only 3 categories that a guy could fall into. 1, you are subconsciously aware of the arrows trajectory aka gap or point of aim. 2, you gap or POA and just say you shoot instinctive to sound cool to your hard core trad police buddy's. 3, you are 1 in the very few hundred thousand people that can really just look at a target and hit it. People that fall into category 3 are very rare, only 1 I can think of off the top of my head is Byron Ferguson, or does Byron gap???
If you want to get technical aiming has been around a lot longer than "instinctive" so as far as I'm concerned "instinctive" isn't "trad" but archery is about what floats your boat so by all means do as you please, archery is very much all about what you want to do, but just be aware you are about to start a uphill losing battle, and if you do become a good shot it won’t be because of your "instinctive skills" it will be because you subconsciously gap. Seriously, abandoning this “instinctive” baloney now could save you years of frustration with very minimal result. IMO a good “instinctive” archer automatically constitutes a subconscious gapper, why not save yourself the pain and frustration and learn to gap (easy and requires almost zero thought) and in 6 months be where you would be after 5+ years of instinctive????
ChuckC didn’t realize this (I think not anyway) but he actually told you to subconsciously gap off your riser/sight window…
You do realize you can gap off of anything right? it doesn’t have to be your arrow... A lot of people (instinctive shooters) gap off their riser/sight window...
To say they instinctive is better for hunting is a bunch of crap, if you struggle in a relaxed environment what makes you think you will be firing on all cylinders when the pressure is on? Go to almost any local 3D shoot, on average, there is a 50-100 point difference between the instinctive and aimers… From what I have seen most can’t break a 7.0 average unless they have been shooting 10-15 years. I also know quite a few that are very happy with 6.0 average+ and have been shooting longer then I have been alive. Talk about a negative perception of traditional archery!!!
-
I shoot instinctive. I tried to gap and cant hold a hunting weight bow still enough and my shooting went to crap. I continue to shoot instinctive. My best 3d shoot a state tourn scored 10-8-5 with 50 targets was a score of 482. I shot zero 5`s or x`s and in real life would have killed them all. I was shooting a longbow I bought that day.
I have killed near 400 big game animals shooting instinctive in 35 years of bow hunting. Most on public land.I would say it works. A few years ago I had a run of 36 kills on deer and pigs in 38 shots. Missed a doe and gut shot a pig I did not find.I`m not happy with that but it happens. My streak broke trying to gap shoot a deer . Thinking about shooting does not work for me. focusing on white hairs in the crease of the leg does.
I`ve said all that not to brag but to let you know true instinctive shooting does work and is a trained method requiring solid form. At long range for me I suck . Out to 30 yards I do purty good.At 20 I do really good.
I learned to shoot from a guy years ago that was a good instintive shot.He shot Hill style and was deadly on moving stuff. Me not so much. Its gotta be still..lol. I shoot with a solid anchor and hold a split second.
Learning to gap is faster and very accurate if you can do it. I can`t. But if you can`t shoot instinctive dont think others cant as well.
As far as bow shoots go there are many that shoot poorly regardless of style. Dont judge others by them.
If your in a panic your shot will end poorly probably anyway no matter how you shoot.I know my arrow will go where Im looking in range every time as it has for years. Its confidence gained from proper practice and seeing feathers disappear through game. But hey...we all miss sometime. Good shooting and don`t give up on instinctive it works. Kinda like shooting free throws though..some are gifted and others have to practice more...then there is shaq..lol.RC
-
'How do you go about learning instinctive shooting'.....
by getting a good gap shooter to teach you :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
-
Seriously. ...good form is paramount....it knows not your aiming style...bow can't.....or body position.
But I have to totally disagree on NOT shooting a lot of arrows......
You must shoot a lot of arrows but they also must be properly shot......you must learn the shot before you can learn to shoot ...read that again
But I repeat you must shoot a lot of arrows you cannot get really good at something by NOT doing it.......
look up and find out how many arrows Howard Hill shot a day and later when he started hunting and moved away from target shooting he admitted he shot a lot of his animals instinctively.
-
Two bird, yes. . but the buzz word is
subconsciously". There is no other way. Your brain cannot just know what to do, it must have experienced that before, likely many times, getting into what Terry said.
I do not gap. Not consciously anyway. But I most probably do unconsciously. Maybe not as a gap per se, but certainly as a whole picture. . when it looks like this, I do that,and the arrow goes there..
ChuckC
-
Originally posted by Terry Green:
'How do you go about learning instinctive shooting'.....
by getting a good gap shooter to teach you :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
X2.
-
Originally posted by Terry Green:
'How do you go about learning instinctive shooting'.....
by getting a good gap shooter to teach you :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Ya just gotta love that one.....regardless of your perspective.
For me, I repeat, FOR ME, I lean towards RC's perspective.
I am not much on 3D shooting and what not. In reality, I dont think about it much, I just make the critter dead. Don't pay much attention to anything else.....Just make it dead.
One note: In my simple mind, targets are not critters, but critters are targets (there is a difference). I cannot force my mind to place the same value to each, and therefore do not put the same amount of effort on a target as is extended on an animal......probably to my detriment. However, though not quite as accomplished as RC, I can live with my results.
-
No flames gents,but no one has mentioned (I think.) targets that demand more attention and less on arrow,forcing you to shoot more instinctive.Balloons strung on a clothesline setup
in a mild breeze.Tire swinging or rolling downhill,etc.
Only after you've gotten a solid base and constant rhythym down.I am NOT talking about making you a snapshooter!!!
-
What is gap shooting? What is instinctive shooting? I have read hundreds of opinions and I still do not have a clear definiction. I practice at ranges from 20 yards down because that is all the room I have in my yard. As far as I know I shoot instinctive. I have a system of form down and I repete it each and every shot. When I am at anchor and I an standing right and have raised my bow right all feels good. I then look at exactly where I want to hit and at twenty yards or less it will always be close. It is it off say to the left of target it did not feel right before I shot I am know why I missed right. Something was wrong in the process. If I go to a range where I can extend my target I somehow feel that I have to raise my bow arm. I have no reference point of how high it is by feel. That being said, on one particular range I shoot at I found that at thirty yards if I aim at the top of the target it will hit the bulls eye. Is that gap shooting? I have seen archers that are sight pin shooters who by trial set their muliple pins so if their target is 20, 30, 35, or 40 yards or more they aim using the appropiate pin. To me that is an aiming system and no longer instinctive. And if I am shooting at the range I spoke of earlier and at 30 yards I aim at the top of the target I am useing an aiming system and no longer shooting instinctive. I believe there is such a thing as purely instinctive in archery and I believe that I practice it. Maybe I am wrong but if so, how?
-
Producer...one is conscious aiming and the other is subconscious aiming. Simple really.
-
I can secondary aim like Hill explained when describing an 'imaginary' aiming point, I can do it very quickly as well, within what appears to be a one second instinctive shot tempo. However, if it is a familiar shot and distance, there is no thought to it. 'Grooved in' as Bob Wesley would call it. Hill's secondary aiming process is a mechanical explanation of what natural hand/eye coordination will do for one anyway, with just a bit of acknowledgement of the position of the arrow. When one gets familiar with it, instinctive coordination takes over. I have found, when teaching someone how to shoot in my backyard that has never shot a bow before, that once they get basic form down with either a recurve or a longbow, (some pick it up quick and others it takes days) that I can put a bright red ball approximately where their secondary aim would be and they have more arrows hitting the 4 foot square target more often than my garage. Then, after a few dozen shots, when I take the ball away, the groups tighten up on the target and my garage is safe from their wayward arrows. I imagine that shooting lots of arrows would get them to that same point as well, but doing the bright red ball thing does save some putty and paint time for me.
-
Learning to shoot instinctively is easy, or atleast explaining the process itself is. Good, repeatable form+lots of practice (> metric ton of arrows). Point, draw to anchor (reference) and release, it can be done, but it takes time, but if you like shooting your bow it will be ok.
-
I'm watching two members of our club who in the last year bought recurves or longbows and have been shooting instinctive after switching from their compounds. Their one biggest problem is they are shooting way too fast. They aren't anchoring or aiming, just pulling back and firing away spraying their arrows all over. As we know from the good experienced instinctive shots on here you can still shoot immediately after anchoring but for learning purposes you should anchor, aim, release in a nice even tempo.
-
I don't believe someone should practice shooting one day- drawing, anchoring, holding, aiming, if they would like to snap shoot instinctively. Shooting in a more static manor for learning purposes would lead to learning to shoot statically better.
-
I didn't say shoot in a static manner. I said to shoot with a slower tempo.
-
There can be no true "generalities" or "universal laws" about people's abilities, since everyone's eyes, brains, reflexes, emotional drawbacks to physical actions, spinal posture, arm length, neck length, self-confidence, visual acuity in both or either eye, and such. Lifelong astigmatism and shortsightedness differing in both eyes plus arthritic anomolies cause my eye Rx to work one day, and can't see out them the next. Started bowhunting with compound/fingers, then compound/release, but Carpal tunnel/tendinitis caused me to lose use of my Right arm at one point, the bowyer/archery range advisor tested me and told me, 'your eyes/brain are left-eye dominant. Gotta switch." Husband and I both got traditional that day, since I had to set aside 10 yrs of equipment anyway. My recurve LH is still no miracle since my other eye is also my worse Rx, 3 X worse than the Right eye's Rx. But, I stopped shooting 2 feet to one side! On the range/club lanes, my shooting suckd, but I enjoyed mostly creating 3D foam Big Game targets for our little club and RI's new United state bowhunter group that we helped found. RI has bow-only island hunts by permit/FCFServed, plus earned Competency/unmarked yardage test shoot. I passed despite being the only female among 175 male observers & state officials, other than one female Enforcement officer (thanks, Ms. Joy!). 3 of 5 was passing and I blew the first 2 shots. A club guy took me aside, encouraged me to see "the deer as my target", plus the energy from getting mad, I aced the last 3 shots. I looked past what my eyes were seeing, to view what I wanted my brain to do, and I then saw what I wanted to happen. That ain't a gap, I think, that is instinctive. For some; they define instinctive as some snap-shot, or point/release thing, but truly instinctive acts DO involve parts of our brain/organs that we are not consciously aware of or in complete control of. We can "ask" ourselves to engage this instinctive potential, and practice "engaging" this potential, until it IS what we do when we shoot, unless we mess it up with adding things onto it, that may interfere with whatever functions it uses our body to perform. The brain has to assess our stance, our form, our hold, bow angle/tilt, our view of the target and it asks itself is the shot ready, will it hit the target rightly...many have agreed with the experience of "feeling" when the brain answers those questions on that instantaneous checklist flashing thru the brain/body and feel the answer as we release the arrow and it hits the target just as we "saw" it would. Either we are seers, seeing the future of that arrow hitting as we want it to, as we "see" it doing before it happens, or we have instinctive shooting from deep in our brain's abilities, like breathing in our sleep, or babies newborn swimming underwater without drawing water into their inexperienced lungs, or like the overwhelming gut-stabbing attractions we have to people who just turn out to be the perfect mate for us. Just because you use a match-making service on top of that attraction to an internet photo, doesn't mean the attraction is voided; and you might use a CPap device to aid breathing, but you are still trusting your instinctive lung activity to deliver breath thru the device. I can walk in the dark and put my hand out onto an object I knew I left somewhere, as if I was looking right at it, thanks to instinctive mental mapping by the brain of our environment. That is what I think is a large part of our instinctive shooting, aided by mental mapping of the environmt.which will include target and whatever we have to do with what we have to reach out and put our arrow onto the vitals. We just let the arrow " do the walking". Somewhere, I think I saw an expert at it suggest some mental exercises to strengthen this ability for the archer to use. Maybe worth a google...good luck with it. Everything gets tougher with age, and I know that eyesight and reflexes, senses, strength and flexibility lose acuity & power, so we have to afford ourselves of naturopathy's herbal remedies for muscles, brain, blood viscosity, nerves, memory, control & vitality, inflammation. Geriatric decline begins by 35 in most of those areas, even earlier in others. The average American is clinically deficient in vital vitamins such as D3, B, E, magnesium & calcium, thyroid factors, has sluggish liver/pancreas and bowel-digestive functions, where our immunities come from by the biotic colonies balance. Eating venison is good, but we need more, and few doctors will test any of these for reasonable, updated levels. Many have all symptoms of Thyroid disease or deficits, but doctors don't understand when tests show borderline or just a little low, that tests don't show how much Thyroid hormone is being used by the body, it only shows what is available...like telling the starving guy that there's plenty of food in California....but he's starving in CT! Bowhunters have an appreciation for venison's great nutritional purity, but we often lack understanding of our own body's same muscle quality & purity; eating junk or traditional "homecooked" foods that boil, fry or soak out all the vitamin & nutrition. The degradation to eyes starts after age 25, heats up at 35, while our bones set by age 21 and that can settle onto nerves and tendons that attach muscles to bones. Your shooting will improve after you do a dietary overhaul on your eating habits, your vitamin supplementation and get your General Physician to do a complete fasting blood panel on you. Follow instructions on supplements for when/how to take them, look for contraindictions, such as not taking Calcium/magnesium or digestive enzymes at the same time as dosing a Rx med. Did you know heart attack deaths will show on autopsy a deficit or total lack of CoQ10? That is Ubiquinol in our body; used for muscles among other things, and our foods lack enough of it. Supplement with a high quality Ubiquinol, body ready form, not a Coq10 Ubiquinone that needs to be converted by the body. I am not expert, just study to stay alive, to reverse chronic, acute conditions that kept me from bowhunting for years, weak, crippled, racked with pain out of my mind and could not stand and walk, never mind pull back a bow! Vision was so doubled, foggy, I could not read or focus. Was totally lacking Vits D, B, Thyroid low, probiotics messed up from years of antibiotics and surgeries, unaided recuperations due to bad insurance, no money, bad doctors who know nothing about nutrition & health, only drugs, surgeries, copays. It took 4 yrs before I could go buy my hunting license, or stand unaided to walk and carry my bow. I don't yet string/unstring it myself, but soon, I hope. Doctors left me for agonizingly crippled death with big bills...naturopathy, vitamins & natural compounds like Alpha Lipoic Acid, enzymes, probiotics, amino acids, choline & inositol, herbal supplements like Astragalus, Malic acid, Red Raspberry leaf, Eucommia bark for liver/kidney, Turkeytail, Reishi, Lions Mane, ****ake,& ABM mushrooms, Ashwaganda rejuvenator. Bromelain, from pineapple; a natural diuretic that helps digest food while strengthening dig. tract tissues while letting patients STOP taking deadly HCTZ, a common heart or Hi blood pressure patient drug that may have killed more people than normal heart attacks by themselves! Alpha Lipo can also be diuretic while easing muscle spasms (as magnesium/calcium does too)which is why I take it for decades old thigh dysfunction that hardens up at the tendon on the knee, feels like a spike is being pounded into my leg. Anyone taking L-Carnitine for muscle building regimen, may know that it helps burn off body fat, and fat mixed into/around muscle tissue. The L-Arginine amino acid is also vital for heart function/strength, and it opens up blood vessels, which is how many drugs work that lower BP, softening or opening up vessels. That may give men erections, so they may not want to take it during AM, but at night, when it will ease leg spasms/restless leg by letting pressure out of veins, which is why I take it. You can take a derivative of milk, Ameal peptide, that softens blood vessels, lowering BP, and has no penile erection side effects. Doctors won't tell you about these lifesavers because no drug company makes billion$ off them. Getting healthy will add years, perhaps decades to your bowhunting time on earth. Don't want anyone to suffer as I did with several entire YEARS not hunting, my bow hanging on a wall getting dusty. So sickening! If you are having trouble hitting the target or vitals, or the broadside of a barn....have a bowyer test for your dominant eye, examine your shooting form. You have to pay some for these examinations/advisements, but it is worth it when they are experienced and skilled. It may mean re-equipping, retraining as I had to, but within that year, my other years of archery/bowhunting added to some months of shopping LH traditional stuff, shooting lanes,3D, stumps and paper before I went out to bowhunt lefthanded. The results were immediate in both brain-relief (no more wierd distress when aiming which was my eyes telling brain they were not seeing the same thing) and in venison. From Day1, we both were in love with our traditional bows; his stick, my recurve from Leon stewart in PA. We did not force our lifestyle on our only child; and she wouldn't let us anyway. But now on her own, she has turned to the bow, joining in with some Air Force peers. We are buying her first recurve, a takedown with hardside case, as her job will ship her anywhere anytime and it has to be portable. I joined Trad Gang hoping to locate a cool side quiver for her to practice at an indoor range with, or if they go stumpshooting. I would prefer handmade, and would have done this myself but as I said, I lost years to disabling pain, crippling and mental fog, bedridden, and stil have trouble getting things done. Someone out there must have a lefthand shooter's leather/handmade quiver that will hold more than 6 arrows for her, that I can buy/trade for this weekend, when her bow kit gets to her in MD. I appreciate anyone taking time to read my contribution to the experiences with instinctive shooting's vast subject matter, and who may have that quiver.
-
I don't have a lot to add here because I used the metric ton of arrows method. It worked ok. Then I went to a Rod Jenkins clinic and learned about shot routine and proper back tension. Within a year of that, I was shooting better than I ever thought I could prior!
Bisch
-
from my limited experience, lots of arrows and mistakes and knowing how to fix those mistakes have helped, but i have a long ways to go. Im sure a coach would help, but you still have do everything right to get the results you want. that does take a lot of practice.
-
Last time I was out shooting with the last bow I made - shooting about 30 yards at a 1ft square target - my first dozen arrows were all around the target but I could grab all of them without taking a step.
Second dozen - same
Third dozen - same
Forth 5 in the target - 2 touching
Fifth 7 in target.
Sixth 7 in target.
I was reasonably happy with that at 30 yards.
Starting to feel the fingers and shoulders at that point.
I try to be aware of my stance and just look at the target.
Not claiming to be any kind of expert, I just find that doing it a lot makes me better at it.
Can't think of a shortcut, but then think of the fun you might miss by taking the shortcut.
-
My gosh Fastmari!! Have you ever thought of using paragraphs for reading? You MAY have some points here but your efforts are unreadable.
Arne
-
-
"Form that establishes good alignment" From all the material I have read online that one line pretty well says it all in a nutshell. :thumbsup:
-
At fastmari, I agree with you on lots of points good eating habits and proper nutrition go a long way but from my experience Hereditary family background is probably the most important factors. My Dad is still kicking at over 90 barley but then again he lived a very, very tough life. I'am almost 60 gone thru Cancer for the last 5 years, have chronic back pain, arthritis and digestive issues up the ying yang. Exercise and eat well. Processed foods and eating out of a can dont cut it. Very unhealthy. :(
-
here is something to remember.....practice does not make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect. Like so many people said on here earlier.....run your shot...sequence by sequence...at a manageable distance...say 7 or 8 yards..! from draw, anchor point and subsuquent release...! making sure you have a dead hand or dynamic release without "side plucking". And then of course hitting where you are looking shot after shot. Time and repetition will take care of the rest. The better you can concentrate, the better you will do on any given day. It holds true with me til" this day. Remember, you cannot shoot well at 12,15 or 20 yards until you master the 5-7 yard distance. Baby steps will help you improve rapidly. There is no "one system" that will work for all as their perfect system. You must practice and refine it to work for you. Master your form first...and sorry....the more you practice, the better you will be. No magic pill here......have FUN...!!!!
-
Its been great reading all the various conscious and unconscious methods of shooting the stick and string on here..???Most of the guys helping seem to be very competent shots and yet there are still varying degrees of obtaining success. there are some that I personally agree with and a few that are different FOR ME..!!! But Im thouroughly enjoying it..!!! If more clubs kept score, I wonder if you would start to see a superior method as dictated by shooter success...??? I cant believe how many have told me they HATE to keep score at a 3-D event..???? It certainly would provide a personal measuring stick to check your orogress..??? I LOVE competition....I believe it better battle tests you for archery season.....helps deal with pressure..!!! Just my opinion.....cheers
-
There's nothing wrong with keeping score, it can give you a feel for where you are with your general shooting. Useful. It can make a day of 3D with friends a great time, especially if good-natured ribbing is included. But if score is THE most important part of your shooting experience then instinctive probably isn't the best choice for you. A hard (pins) or semi-soft (gapping) artificial sighting system is a better fit, since THE most important objective there is to achieve perfect hits (perfect scores) with every single shot. Some won't admit it or will try to deflect the obvious, but shooting for score, by design, is built around the eternal quest to obtain dead center perfect hits. Anything less by default constitutes a measure of failure, to be corrected with constant concern/tweaking of form components, gear or mental approach. This becomes the fuel that feeds the circular quest, and if you like that sort of thing then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Personal choice is'all. It's a fact that artificial sighting is far more more productive on targets. It's essentially a carefully controlled paint-by-numbers machine for meeting the objective, and as with any applied mechanics it is quite effective towards that end... if that's what's important to you.
On the other hand, instinctive shooting is BY DESIGN less perfect and harder. It's supposed to be that way. You'll either like/accept the extra challenge or consider it as romantic rubbish. It won't compete as well or make you famous on the 3D circuit. It's a great 'target' for chat site ridicule and it won't get you into the Olympics. But if your personal 'painting preferences' align more with the imperfections of an open canvas than the repetitive certainties of numbered paintboxes well then welcome to the cabin of instinctive romantics, lol. Coffee's on, help yourself.
-
I shoot with one guy who doesn't want to shoot unless we keep score. The guys I regularly shoot with never want to keep score.
Shooting with the guy who wants to keep score requires a shot by shot discipline if I want to win, which I do.
Shooting with the guys I regularly shoot with, we pick all kinds of oddball shots, in addition to shooting at bullseye targets. If something occurs to me having to do with the way I shoot where I want to try something different, I go ahead and try it in the middle of the round. I feel very relaxed when I shoot with them. I could shoot the rest of my life that way, and hopefully will do just that.
On the other hand, the discipline of shooting to win does improve my shooting more than clowning around with my regular partners. When I shoot in a tournament, I'm already sort of used to the pressure and don't feel it as much.
If I could only choose one, I'm not sure which one I would pick. I like doing both.
-
Wish I could tell you how it fell into place, started shooting around 1957, I was lucky to be an instinctive archer right off. Shot until 1974, then stopped, no reason, just didn't do it anymore. Wasn't until I came back to it steady in 2009 that i started to realize what it was to shoot instinctive and, actually learn what it was that I had been doing right all these years. I would have to say the most valuable thing I learned from the guys on this forum would be blank/blind bale shooting as it is most helpful to both the beginner and most accomplished shooters but especially the beginner.
-
You learn instinctive by learning gap first, then it becomes easier to say you're shooting instinctive and cuts the learning curve in half.
-
I basically taught myself both forms of shooting, doing other sports like golf, baseball, slings etc. has trained my brain for shooting instinctive. For some people it comes naturally. Is this hand eye coordination..?
-
Form Form Form work on it constantly, good alignment everytime. Shoot everyday you don't need to shoot a lot but shoot most everyday. You, your bow, your arrow, release need to become one. As stated above it is a journey.
Tundra
-
Originally posted by Caleb Monroe:
Best way I have heard to do it is as follows. This is not something I thought up or take credit for. I read it somewhere.
1. Put 6 separate dots on a target.
2. Start at 5yds and focus only on the dot and shoot an arrow at every dot. Continue until all 6 arrows are touching the dot you shot them at. Do not move back until you can hit the dot with each arrow.
3. Move back to 15yds and repeat step 2
4. Move to 10yds and repeat.
5. Move to 20yds.
Do not look at the arrow just the dot. By moving back 10 then forward 5 it is supposed to help your brain figure the distances. You can go back as far as you are able to still focus on the dot.
Good form and mechanics will speed up this process. Instinctive Archery Insights by Jay Kidwell is a good read for instinctive shooting as well.
I have been shooting for almost a year, and I'm pretty decent at it, but I think I will try this because I'm not as good as I want to be.
Thanks :)
-
My biggest downfall is the follow thru like letting the release hand drop before the arrow hits the target and drooping the bow. But I hear ya about Form; Form Form and practice.
Somebody is trying to tell me that shooting Instinctive is still Aiming. Somebody chime in on this because to me aiming is looking down a rifle barrel with sights or a scope.
-
Originally posted by Wolftrail:
My biggest downfall is the follow thru like letting the release hand drop before the arrow hits the target and drooping the bow. But I hear ya about Form; Form Form and practice.
Somebody is trying to tell me that shooting Instinctive is still Aiming. Somebody chime in on this because to me aiming is looking down a rifle barrel with sights or a scope.
Letting your release hand drop is not really a problem, since the arrow is gone before you can drop it. Keep the bow hand wherever it ends up after you release the shot until the arrow hits the target. The important thing to know is that the position of your release hand and bow hand gives you information about your form, so notice where they end up. Trying to end up with your release hand touching your neck or trying to eliminate movement in your bow hand does you no good whatsoever. If your release hand moves back toward your neck and your bow hand doesn't move much, that's because everything leading up to that point put them there. If your release hand flies away and your bow hand jerks to the side, that's because of the same reason.
Actually, I was watching the finals of some hot shot traditional competition on the Internet, and noticed that none of the participants actually kept their bows up until the arrows struck the target. It sort of amazed me that they could get by with dropping their bows as soon as they did. But the only real requirement is that you keep your bow up until the arrow is gone, and I guess they have that figured out.
As to whether instinctive shooters aim, most people would agree that instinctive shooting is an aiming style. Do instinctive shooters line things up like a rifle shooter would line up his sights? No. Do they point their arrows wherever they need to point them to hit the target, even if they don't see the point of the arrow? Yes. Most of these arguments could be resolved easily enough if people just defined their terms.
-
Dropping this dropping that its mostly sloppy shooting style so to speak.
Aiming.
thefreedictionary definition,
a. To direct (a weapon or camera) toward a point.
b. To direct or propel (an object, such as a ball) toward a point: aimed the pass at a wide receiver; aimed the shot at the lower right corner of the goal.
ya ok aimed the shot; The act of actually throwing or hitting a ball to its predetermined spot. Is it aiming. :confused:
If a tree falls in the bush miles away does it make a sound.?
-
Yes it does. You just won't be there to hear it. :laughing:
-
I took the shortcut, I learned gap first then it evolved into subconscious aiming.
-
quote:
Originally posted by highlow:
Yes it does. You just won't be there to hear it. :bigsmyl: