Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: jackdaw on December 16, 2014, 12:40:00 AM
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while perusing the powwow forum on tradgang the other day I came across a video of a very capable Archer who shot a bow much in the same style that I do. A style in which many of my friends claim that I snap shoot and take no time to aim..?? I always assure them that I come to complete anchor and that the aiming "process" begins before I even start drawing the bowstring! as I start drawing the bow I am focusing on the object I am intending on shooting and my focus is and its absolute peak right at the moment I achieve my anchor..!!!! it is at that exact moment that I release the arrow on its intended path..!!! If I attempt to maintain an anchor for any period off time my entire shot sequence falls completely to pieces! Most of my Archer buddies draw into a very deep anchor with multiple points of contact and then immerse themselves into aiming.?? I absolutely cannot do this..!!!!! For me the draw/release sequence must be one fluid/dynamic movement...much like Asbell talj s of throwing a baseball. You do not grip the ball, cock your arm and then pause.....stare even harder, then release...the throw would have lost all its "rythem" so to speak..?? This to me IS instinctive shooting..!!!! I notice Fred Asbell and Fred Bear shot pretty much this way as well..!!! There is no gapping, point on, or any "aiming" persay..??? I just stare at my intended target ..draw slowly while burning a hole in my target abd release at the moment of anchor. I have talked to many other archers and they usually shun this method as "snap shooting"....and tell me to aim longer..??? At what?? I already WAS aiming the whole time I was drawing..?? Anybody else shoot this "snap" method..?? Incidently, on days when my concentration is spot on, I shoot quite well this way.....quite well..!!!! I guess if it ain't' broke, don't fix it....grip it and rip it.....any thoughts..??? Best regards.....John
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You are following the path of Ron La Clair, Fred Bear, Howard Hill, Ben Pearson, Art Young, John Schulz and a host of other archery 'grip it and rip it' shooters, as you put it. You will might be shooting a Hill longbow one day, if you don't control yourself. You Tube Hitting 'em Like Howard Hill by John Schulz and just check to see how close your natural form is to what you see, and then pat yourself on the back for a job well done.
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I shoot the same way. When I first got into trad archery, I learned from watching YouTube vids of laclair, asbell, hill, bear, and the like. Tried the ferguson way for a bit but it never really worked for me. tried the way most guys at the range shoot and I can't hit anything. So, I use what works for me.
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I don't know about the other's but Hill and Schultz talked about referencing the arrow to "aim". Didn't Hill write about his aiming method at some length? It sounds like what most of us would call "gap" or "pick a point" today.
I don't know about the rest of you but I don't really throw a ball very well. It occurs to me that since I do want to shoot a bow well that I might need to put a little more of a method to it.
I don't care how anybody else shoots but how many of you have sawn the sights or scope off of your squirrel rifle?
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I shoot the same way, I start aiming prior to the shot and aim until I hit anchor, I then release. If I hold to long I loose my concentration and me miss my intended spot.
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In my opinion, there is NO real way or "proper way" to shoot. I've shot pretty much the same way for the last 25 years. I have a pile of critters, Robbin Hood arrows and very few misses or bad hits that says that I'm shooting right for me. This is the reason that I cant shoot around other people. "you don't do this, or you don't do that...you're doing this......."blah blah blah......
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You answered your own question "if it aint broke don't fix it" I would suggest keeping on with what is working for you unless your really not satisfied and suspect you could do better.
I can not shoot as accurately snap shooting as I can when I hold and expand until explosion. I also aim before,in fact I never quit aiming until my arrow has reached its target.
I believe the answer lies in practice practice practice until the shot shoots itself without any conscious thought. let your subconscious shoot the shot.
I am working on my shot all the time. I also believe it can take a lifetime to perfect and most of us will never have that kind of dedication it takes to achieve that level. I keep trying though.
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Jackgraw, don't listen to your friends. I shoot the exact same way as you, and it works well for me. Basically the GFA method of shooting. I have been shooting this way since I started trad in 85. I think it has many benefits, a fluid pull thru draw and release being one. Never stop pulling.
In fact, I no longer have a conscious thought about any part of my shooting,including range estimation, and I shoot out to 50 yds almost daily.
I have an old Wensel video where Gene starts talking about "gapping" and Barry covers his ears and starts chanting "nah, nah, nah, nah, cause he doesn't want to even hear any part of it. I'm the same way. I'll bet that anyone that shoots like us has never had a bout with TP, (target panic).
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If your arrow goes where it is supposed to, then keep doing what you are doing. I have tried the snap shooting model, and all it does for me is lead to short drawing and the dreaded target panic. I hold at full draw for a couple of seconds, and that is what works for me. My hat is off to those who can snap shoot well.
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Jackdaw sounds like a winner to me. Feather touching nose, middle finger to eye tooth , pull through to finish. Nice shot! Don't stop the process. Have tried the others ways but our way works best for me.
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I really got to thank all the guys of Tradgang that have helped me become a better shooter. Posts like this and reading different posts about shooting styles have helped me tremendously. Thanks to all as I'm only into this trad style for 5 years and enjoying it with every shot.
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All I can say is I shoot the same way and it works for me.
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I don't swing draw but do something very similar. I'm not the most accurate shooter, but I keep my hunting distances close. I don't look at the arrow but see it under my eye with reference to the target. If I draw and hold, all is lost to where the arrow is going. I would describe my shooting to be like Mr. Bear's.
I shoot the way you do.
Watch Fred shooting in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEaaESlTJog
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I just finished reading the chapter from Hill in "Hunting the Hard Way" think it was in How I Shoot a Bow. Hill explains his "split-vision" or secondary aiming. Your aim is calculated, always focused on the target and where you want to hit, allowing the point of the arrow to come into your field of view and aiming the point at the imaginary spot you need to shoot to hit where you intend... This could be high or low for distance, or a lead calculated for a moving target. The one thing Hill highlighted was that you cannot allow your focus to drift back and forth from the tip of the arrow to the point you want to hit.
From trying to shoot in the instinctive manner, and trying to imagine doing what is described by Hill.... It doesn't make as much sense as it should on first read, but makes complete sense after shooting for some time, reading it, and going back to reevaluate how you are shooting. It is exactly what I have been doing, and identified a technic fault I had in the process, that is certainly could not figure out.
Hard to think that I spent years scrolling through Internet forums and web pages looking for the answers that have been around for 60yrs in this amazing instructional book
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I'm somewhat the opposite; I don't gap shoot or use any kind of "mechanical" method to aim, just focus on a spot, but I do hold anchor for 2-3 sec. - I find I need that time to insure I'm really concentrating on the spot. If I release as soon as I hit anchor point I do much worse.
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I also am a snap shooter. Been doing it my whole life. Where it is beneficial is when a critter is being drawn on and it moves. The snap shooter just goes with it instinctively, if you must aim you may get all flusterbated and have to begin the aiming sequence again. Not with a snap shooter. Snap on my friend!
Mine came from many many years of shooting fish. My buds are always amazed how I can pin down a speeding off carp on his way to deeper waters.
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Yep snap shooter here too and love it! Just like Schulz and I shoot better then I ever have in my life.
You are doing it right don't change a thing. :thumbsup:
Tracy
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Originally posted by Sean B:
This is the reason that I cant shoot around other people. "you don't do this, or you don't do that...you're doing this......."blah blah blah......
same here Sean...
i shoot the same and have for alot of years, i have killed a lot of animals doing so, if i try to hold for a extend period ( over a second or 2) my mind loses focus.. kinda like "ok, now what?" i have never excelled on the 3-d course and usually average in the middle to upper 3rd of my class, which i shoot strictly as practice for hunting, i have attempted to change to a diffrent style , im not sure why, i guess because everyone else was doing it, but have found that the focus and aiming while drawing then release when anchor is hit works way better for me than anything else... i do remember a quote by fred asbel that said " the anchor is not a resting place" or something like that....
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I shoot the same way. If I do find myself short drawing I'll hold for a second or two for a few shots then I'm back I the groove.
When I first started thinking about trad archery I bought G.Fred's book, "Instinctive Shooting" and have been shooting like that since the late 1980s.
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wow, great stuff guys! I have to put in here that up until recently I shot pretty much 5 days a week probably 60 arrows day not including 3d shoots...probably 16, 000-20, 000 arrosws a year if my math serves me correctly.??? but as one of you said, when I get to anchor if I continue to hold the question pops into my head "now what am I supposed to do".....and "why am I still holding this?"....and then things go completely haywire! I have to admit that when I am just about to full draw I am cognizant of the windage of my arrow as far as left and right are concerned. I've been shooting this way for seven or eight years...it is what works for me.
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When I started shooting archery I shot the same way you are describing. One fluid draw with no stop to anchor. I did exactly as you said and did all my aiming before I ever drew the bow back. I practiced every day and became very effective at this. On my good days I could really stack some arrows.
Now the downfall, I found if my concentration was lacking at the very least my accuracy and consistency would go down the tubes. I lost all of my confidence and my accuracy plummeted to the point of where I would not even attempt to take a shot at an animal with my bow. This was after a full year of shooting by the way and after successful harvests as well.
So I went to split vision/gap shooting and found that even on my worst days I could be consistent enough to put the arrow where it needed to be. After awhile gapping has become subconscious and it is now turned full circle to where I don't even think about aiming much anymore. To each his own I'd say. Good luck and good shooting! SS
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Howard Hill was NOT an instinctive shooter ! He did reference the arrow while at the same time burning a hole into his target. This was his "split vision" method
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Originally posted by Tradcat:
Howard Hill was NOT an instinctive shooter ! He did reference the arrow while at the same time burning a hole into his target. This was his "split vision" method
Yes....but he did claim to shoot many animals 'instinctively' once he stepped away from targets and got heavily into hunting. There are 2 Howards, the words of the target archer, and the words of the hunter...and there is value in both.
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" Incidentally, on days when my concentration is spot on, I shoot quite well this way.....quite well..!!!! "
So how do you shoot when your concentration is not spot on?
That was what I asked myself. And the answer was not very well or well enough to chance a bad shot on an animal. As much as I like shooting that style cause it was fun it was not reliable for me so I switched to the: anchor, hold, aim, release method.
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I would have to say, it all depends on, as you stated, how many days your concentration is on when your shooting or hunting. I am lucky enough to be able to shoot either way. I find the taking some time to be more consistent than fast shooting, but this is me. I know I can go out on any day and hold my own or go hunting with complete confidence.
So it depends on you, and how confident you are on any given day.
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Kind of feel your pain. I'm told, being new, that I need to hold longer. I've tried with very little success. However, many of you explained a method(s) I'm using. I feel that I'm aiming from the time I start pulling; come to anchor, see the spot and release. I've tried holding longer, but my mind is asking why? It's right there, I'm on it, so extend and release. Smile. Aiming, for me is between a gap/instinctive style--bring arrow up on spot, mentally picture the gap and it just happens. And, if we're hitting what we want; no change is necessary. Let's call it "Crack" shooting. Smile. "Without breaking into parts".
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I don't believe there are many (any?) professional archers in this forum, so the only ones we have to please are ourselves. I would consider it incredibly rude to offer another shooter advice, particularly in a tournament, that was unasked for. Well....maybe if my buddy was shooting better than me in a tournament, I might offer him a little unsolicited advice to get him to thinking about something other than his shot, but all's fair in that situation, right?
So I would never try to change anyone's mind about how he should shoot, particularly if he is happy shooting the way he already is. However, if a person feels like he isn't getting any better, and wants to get better, then he should realize that it is highly unlikely that he will immediately improve when he changes something. After I attended Rick Welch's class, I decided I wanted to shoot with a 2 second hold. Everything that everyone says is true: at first, you wonder what the point is and it seems like you're just wasting your time holding while you're doing nothing. And for a while, your shooting gets worse because you lose concentration and begin to creep during the hold. But after I learned to overcome those two problems, my shooting got better. It took a good year before I could maintain my concentration during the hold and avoid creeping with any consistency. For me it was worth it. YMMV, of course.
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McDave, that is a great point you just made right there. I do realize that by holding longer you must learn to channel your concentration to a longer period off time.I guess I should qualify what is a good concentration day and a poor concentration day. even though I practice at 30 and 40 yards occasionally the bulk of my practice is it 18 to 20yards. At 20 yards on a good day I have my Arrows stacked into a relatively tight to 2-3 inch group. on a poor concentration day it is generally speaking 6 to 8 inches. I do not believe I would shoot a deer over 20 yards and both of these are quite lethal . on a side note, I generally once or twice a month draw the bow with my eyes shut about 20 times very slowly coming to anchor and slowly letting down. recalibrating in my brain what full draw at anchor is. I will then spend the rest of the shooting session shooting 7 to 10 yards. I continue to do this until my groups are extremely tight. I remember as a kid watching my father, a confirmed gap shooter, suffer from target panic where he physically could not bring the point of the arrow up to set the gap, his brain simply would not allow his hand to do it.!! I think with snap shooting it is more subconscious, and far less mechanical . to my way of thinking far less chance of target panic. in seven or eight years, target panic has never affected me yet...???? *at least not to my knowledge..
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one other thing, I have far more good concentration days than bad concentration days or probably I would have switched to something else sometime back.....
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I don't understand the lace of concentration on a hunting shot at all. I can't comprehend that.
Not saying it doesn't happen to some folks, but I'm just saying I don't see that ever happening with me....since its never happened. That's why I'm hunting....for the shot, so I am definitely concentrating.
Yes, I have lost concentration in my back yard due to other issued of life entering my mind, and I just quit shooting. Its best if I'm out roaming in the woods where I can concentrate
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It doesn't matter how you aim...if you have distractions you are going to have distractions. Especially on the target butts in your back yard.
I just don't see that happening on game while hunting as I am so immersed in the hunt and aiming to not be concentrating and focused.
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I pretty much agree with you Terry. not really sure I ever had a concentration lapse while hunting. these concentration lulls basically occur while at the indoor or outdoor ranges. guess that's why I never changed my shot routine....it all works at the moment of truth. target shooting, that's a whole other animal..
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I've seen some guys that snapshoot that are quite deadly on both game animals and targets. In fact, if I could shoot this way I definitely would as I think it would be better in most of my hunting situations. I've watched the videos of our very own Terry Green shooting and it can only be described as beautiful!
I think that as long as you are getting to anchor each time then you should be good to go.
I too took shooting lessons from Rick Welch. When I went to him I was unable to even get to anchor on each shot. He literally cured me of that in 2 days and this was back in 2006 I believe. Since then I have not taken a single shot where I did not get to anchor. However I have since slightly changed the way I shoot. I don't hold for 3 seconds anymore as I found it was often too long in a hunting situation. In fact if you watch Rick Welch while he is hunting he doesn't always hold as long as he does when he is shooting at a target. The more I do this stuff the more I realize that Howard Hill was wise when he said there is a big difference between target shooting and bowhunting. They really are two completely different sports....although related.
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I envy folks like Terry Green that can "snap shoot" and shoot so well. As Jon said above, as long as you are getting to a repeatable anchor you should shoot well.
I too went to Rick Welch and improved my shooting exponentially... and watched Arne's videos as well at Jimmy Blackmon's.
As others have stated... whatever works for you.
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I think incorporating a 'double anchor' ON THE BAIL is the best thing for any aiming style. The second anchor should be one that guarantees proper alignment and back tension every time.
You should program for the arrow NOT to go till the 2nd proper anchor is reached.
I have posted about this before and covered it in The Bowhunters of TradGang DVD.
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Regardless of what you do, if you do it the same way everytime, you are on the path to developing a great shot.
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I shoot the same sort of way jackdaw shoots and probably even a bit quicker. When we get together at a 3D shoot, it doesn't take us long at a target ( unless we're looking for our arrows ;) )
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Thats only when Keith Zimmerman is along john...:-D
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Yeah, that SOB can talk me into a bad shot every time :laughing:
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When I first started shooting, for a long time afterwards I got really hung up trying to shoot like my "hero's" shoot. Hours and hours and thousands of arrows were spent trying to emulate the style of a few. Terry gave me some of the best advice I've gotten since I started shooting a bow in a thread a couple months back...
"Shoot like Jake"
All of a sudden my groups tightened up, my fly off releases almost stopped, and I became a much better shot with a bow and arrow.
Make no mistake, I can't take credit for hardly any of my shot sequence, I'm not the first guy to do any of this stuff. Hit your spot, and let the other guy hit his, using any (ethical) way you can.
Jake
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from Straight Shooting:
When Howard was first instructing my brother and me, he said, "Boys, make up your minds what you want to do, hunt or shoot target, because the two just don't go together.
Target style of form is what I call a static style. It is basically inflexible. It will produce results in hunting only if the game is stationary or just barely moving. There may be some exceptions, but by and large this will hold true.
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I agree with, shoot exactly the way you should shoot. my snap ish style of shooting is exactly what is in me. Trying to alter that is diffivult...
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Funny how some want.... Hit the range today with the recurve after a month on finger/compound bow , and told myself 50y and under. Smile. I wasn't there ten minutes before someone said, "You need to hold longer." Yep, and kept on walking. Twenty-eight targets, six arrows each, and felt like I hadn't missed a beat. Tried holding, two/three seconds on a few, and re-shot two targets because of hitting left, but it just felt better and more comfortable doing my thing. I'll bring out the longbow tomorrow,Smile.
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I also shoot the same way and have ever since I started. Shooting any other way for me feels unnatural. I raise my bow and draw (similar to the Fred Bear video that was posted) as I focus on my target. As soon as I hit full anchor with the first joint of my thumb anchored in the mandibular joint, I release.
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Bowhunting shots are by and large, practical shots. An archer must respond to the shot scenario in the moment. John Schulz calls this "conditioned instinct". There is no doubt that a reference aiming system, draw and hold style of shooting will excel on a target range at stationary non-living targets.
When we are hunting you never know what you are going to get. Just as the wingshooter must be ready to respond to a shot in the field, many successful bowhunters approach their shooting style in the same way.
Have you watched some of the draw and hold (wheel-bow and stickbow) shooters loose an opportunity at a close range simply because their shooting style limits their ability to make a quick shot?
Paul Schafer talked about this in his interview article, that the ability to make a snap shot is very important to him. Anyone who has hunted with a bow for any amount of time and had an opportunity to take a game animal will recognize the advantage to being able to shoot quickly and without prolong thought.
A "snap" shooting style can be VERY effective in the hunting woods.
I grew up with a background of target archery and was taught a very static style of shooting. Over the years this developed into target panic and focal hand dystonia. I now have great difficulty with a snap style of shooting right handed. Too many years of holding at full draw to "reprogram".
I am shooting left handed now, and I have to say, I am shooting a snap "instinctive" style. I really like this style! Fluid and continuous, just like throwing a basketball thru the hoop. My only interest for many years now has been taking game with a bow.
One of the things I think that is very important for a snap shooter is to avoid shooting TOO MUCH! That will lead to problems. For the bowhunter, shoot one arrow, go pull. And avoid shooting at a bullseye. Leaves, stumps, 3-D animal with no aiming "dots". I truly believe you will be better off developing this "hunting" style of practice and shooting form, if your main interest are grilled backstrap steaks... :thumbsup:
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Well, I guess I've probably done more squirrel hunting than anything else. I've killed about a million squirrels with a rifle (maybe a little exaggeration).
Those furry little things are fast, fidgety and unpredictable. I don't shoot instinctively on whatever shot is offered. I deliberately set up the shot I need. If I can't get it, I don't shoot. I aim with the scope and use a rest of some type for about 98% of my shots.
I shoot some squirrels with a bow too but I have to aim carefully to hit the little buggers.
Shot gunning running rabbits in the brush or birds on the wing (I've done lots of that stuff too) is a little different...and the pattern thrown by a modified or improved-cylinder choke is a lot different than an arrow.
I think shooting deer with a bow is more like the squirrel rifle thing.
John Schultz also talked about a 60 yard shot on a running buck that he spooked by missing a 60 yard shot at a standing buck.
The missed shot could have just as easily been a poor hit. I get the impression that they didn't worry as much about that back then as we do today.
Which weapon generally has the greater success ratio?...a deliberately aimed compound with all the bells and whistles or a snap-shot stick bow?
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Originally posted by mgf:
Well, I guess I've probably done more squirrel hunting than anything else. I've killed about a million squirrels with a rifle (maybe a little exaggeration).
Those furry little things are fast, fidgety and unpredictable. I don't shoot instinctively on whatever shot is offered. I deliberately set up the shot I need. If I can't get it, I don't shoot. I aim with the scope and use a rest of some type for about 98% of my shots.
I shoot some squirrels with a bow too but I have to aim carefully to hit the little buggers.
Shot gunning running rabbits in the brush or birds on the wing (I've done lots of that stuff too) is a little different...and the pattern thrown by a modified or improved-cylinder choke is a lot different than an arrow.
I think shooting deer with a bow is more like the squirrel rifle thing.
John Schultz also talked about a 60 yard shot on a running buck that he spooked by missing a 60 yard shot at a standing buck.
The missed shot could have just as easily been a poor hit. I get the impression that they didn't worry as much about that back then as we do today.
Which weapon generally has the greater success ratio?...a deliberately aimed compound with all the bells and whistles or a snap-shot stick bow?
If you look at wounding-loss rate as a measure of success on taking game they are equal between wheel bows and trad bows. Look at Roy Marlows book that includes two studies that found this conclusion. It is in the approach and style you want to shoot a bow and arrow. And of course how you want to hunt. I think your analogy of shooting the squirrels with a scoped rifle is the way many modern bowhunters approach the sport. I grew up bowfishing, and a snap shot many times was par for the course. That same style can be used in bowhunting and has been used with traditional bows for along time. The compound bow teaches people to shoot static, well it forces them to. Why Fred Bear could never shoot one, and would not. His style of fluid shooting did not work. It is all in your approach. The shotgun analogy is the swing shot in the fluid style being similar, not of course the projectile.
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Of course, and I don't mean to suggest that there isn't any value in being able to shoot fast. I used to shoot a lot of areal targets with rifles and handguns. I had to shoot fast but I still performed all the same steps as in any other shot.
I know I shoot a bow best when there's some sort of "rhythm"...each shot takes about the same amount of time. I'm doing everything the same every time.
Obviously, you're eventually going to get tired if you hold the bow too long.
I think that there is some "best" speed (probably not the same for everybody). Too fast and you skip steps n the process. Too slow and the process changes or even has added steps.
It seems to me that there should be some window in there where you should be able to shoot or hold and still maintain a reasonable amount of control over the shot.
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Kinda like this guy, controlled snap shooting...
Watch this shot, in practice (part 1)
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=54;t=000003
Now on a live animal (part 5)
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=54;t=000001
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Originally posted by Ron LaClair:
I've been shooting a bow since I was a squirt... but I didn't really start to learn about form and style until I started shooting competition 49 years ago. While we never "stop" learning there are some things that become apparent after 50 years of study. One thing I do know for sure is there is no absolute style when it comes to shooting a bow.
When someone says you have to shoot this way or that way because all the top shots shoot that way, I say baloney. Some of the best shooters I've been privileged to know shot with what some would call an "unorthodox" style. Jim Pickering used a "Dead" release and high anchor when he competed in some of the top tournaments of the day in the 1960's. Everyone else in the Country shot with what was call "Power Archery" Jim whipped them all. He was a National Champion and a PAA Champion using a style that everyone said was "wrong". Jim Caspers another Archery Champion shot with a high elbow on his drawing arm. He actually pumped his arm up and down after he was at full draw, he said it helped him build up back tension.
As for the term "Snap shooter", I've been hearing it for 50 years and it was probably used before that. It has "always" been used to refer to someone that shot in one fluid motion, and whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.
I was privileged to talk to Fred Bear many times over the years and I remember him calling himself a "snap shooter". He said, "I'm a snap shooter,..I concentrate from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet". He said he couldn't shoot a compound because the let off interfered with the rhythm of his shooting style and broke his concentration.
"Good snap shooters"?...I've seen a lot of them. In the early years of the GLLI (Great Lakes Longbow Invitational) when scores were kept , we had the best shooters in the Country shooting for the honor of top dog. The shooters that won that shoot more often than not were what I call "Snap shooters" Very controlled, very meticulous, very accurate shooters whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.
Someone that "does not" come to full draw or touch their anchor before they release have what's called "target panic or what use to be called "IT". They are NOT...repeat NOT, snap shooters.
I think the problem is like what Terry said people today are "mis using" the term "snap shooter". Snap shooting is definitely not an inferior style of shooting a bow, however it must be realized that not everyone can master the snap shooting style. Those that can't may end up with target panic and be called snap shooters but in reality they are not.
I think Ron sums that issue up very nicely.
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I'm a snap shooter...Howard Hill was a snap shooter...I've never had 'target panic'. Target panic can effect those that hold too. I've seen guys hold at full draw that were terrified to let go, and gasp at the release with fly away string hands and left swinging bow arms. Snap shooting is not target panic....if so, I could't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.
Those you described that you shot with that can't shoot consistently have a mental issue with target panic.
I just don't think its fair to true snap shooters to put a negative label on them that is warranted for a mental affliction and not an aiming method....as Ron alluded to.
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My target panic started in 1976 when I bought a light weight compound that I could hold forever
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It seems that over the years, I have heard the term snap shooting used in two different ways. In some instances, it was used to reference a shooter who completed his draw and aiming sequence in one smooth action that culminated in release at the instant the anchor point is reached. "Snap" meant quick but carried no indication of target panic or lack of control. I have also heard it used to refer to a snatch and release draw indicative of bad form. So one snap shooter may be smooth and controlled whereas another may have serious form issues.
In today's parlance, which of these usages of snap shooting is considered correct?
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I had a talk with Ron LaClair about this...and he said the term started getting misused in cases of target panic years ago by folks that didn't understand instinctive 'snap shooting', and I agree as when I started on internet sites years ago there was a beginging of miss use of the term by folks that held to call target panic snap shooting. Its just not fair to miss label something that was termed years ago as an aiming/shooting method by folks that shot that way.
Watch all 'trick shooters'....all the ones I've seen 'snap shoot', again, including Howard Hill...as well as many other of the 'old timers. Also, a LOT of great shot hunters I've hunted with are snap shooters.....heck of shots stump shooting as well.
Here's Ron snap shooting.....does he look like he has target panic?....
Roh shooting cups off of Frisbees (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f8w8FkeGGs)
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I hope I don't come off sounding like a jerk, that is certainly not my intention. This topic is discussed to pretty much the same conclusion every couple weeks on this forum. The horse is dead guys.
I may be corrected here, but my interpretation of this hotly debated issue goes like this....
Good shooters have all the same elements of the shot. There isn't any way around it. A solid bow arm, draw, ANCHOR, proper alignment, release. These elements of the shot are NOT negotiable. I think everyone agrees with that. Some guys have to hold for a bit to achieve this, other don't. Simple as that. The fact is that some guys snapshoot with a lot of success (Terry, Paul, Howard) and others hold (Rod Jenkins, etc).
If you achieve all the elements of a soundly executed shot, and you hit was you are aiming at....do it. Don't worry about how the other guys hit their spot. I am guilty of this. For a good long while I tried to emulate Terry Green to the finest detail of the shot. When I was having trouble he encouraged me to try some other things. My shooting improved tremendously. I may well be oversimplifying this. I haven't been doing this for 30 years, like many.
Solid bow arm, draw, ANCHOR, alignment, release....
To me it matters very little how fast as all that happens, provided that it DOES HAPPEN, and you hit what you want to hit.
Jake
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I re-read that last post and it sounds a little more offensive than I mean it. My point is that a bunch of fine bow shots should marvel about how many different ways there are to shoot a bow well. That is all. Hope it isn't taken wrong.
Jake
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as a self proclaimed snapshooter it is usually those who take their time at anchor who critique my snap shooting..?? do not believe I've ever said to somebody, ..."you hold too long". To those people who do not snap shirt persay.. they will never understand it..??? holding for one, two or three seconds once you've achieved anchor totally breaks down the shot. Jake, all aspects of archery are discussed and rediscussed on this forum. each time from a little bit different perspective. there are many posts that I simply bypass....these forums are all about learning and sharing....hopefully everyone will continue to do so....did not mean to stir up a hornets nest but the information on here was great
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It's hard to pigeon hole everyone as to styles of shooting as we are all different.
I am more of a controlled aimer and I can tell when I start shooting too fast because my accuracy and consistency falls off. I have to tell myself to slow down. I can change horses and shoot flying targets and running rabbits snap shooting as necessary.
I play golf the same way, a controlled tempo on each and every swing.
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I too agree with Ron. Howard was known as a snap shooter, and I'd say he was consistent. I think there's been some sort of 'miss-labeling' also along the way. Not sure why, but folks sure are re-writing history more than ever now. Might as well go after archers too. :(
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What Ron said. Snap shooting is NOT target panic. It was a miss use of the term that some used to describe a totally different issue. Yes, snap shooting is *shooting quick*, that's where it got its name, NOT from folks with an issue of getting to full draw.
There are also like may have been stated above, people that hold that have target panic. That being the case, how can you even begin to label snap shooting as target panic.
Just call a spade a spade and life would be much easier. Trying to make definitions to suit a bias opinion does no one any good. I also agree that labeling people that have target panic as snap shooters is a negative towards snap shooters.
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I really like that style of shooting, although I'm no good at it, I'm glad to see it's an effective method, maybe I'll get the hang of it one day :)
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I'm proud to call myself a snap shooter. I reach "anchor" although there isn't any anchoring happening. It is a fluid touch and release in one motion. I'm not a great target shot (NFAA 300, 300 Vegas) but I stump shoot great and all of the shots I've made on game have been accurate, resulting in quick humane kills. I shoot 3d courses better than paper rounds. I suppose Mr. Hill could not have been more right when he posed the decision between (primarily) being a target archer or a hunter.
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I'm glad I started this post, lots of comparison and contrast...!! like I said in the beginning, many people comment I shoot quickly.....however, anchor is achieved and I generally shoot well..!! nice to hear the feedback, thank you men..!!
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I'm not exactly sure what all the fuss is about. But just reading the definitions of both styles of shooting, both styles seem to reach anchor, aim, and release. The only difference is one takes slight pauses between steps and holds anchor a tad longer. The other does all three in one single motion with almost no pauses. I think both styles are excellent and I'd be proud to have skill in either one, if not both ;) lol. Just boils down to preference and comfort really.
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Maybe I came in late haha
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Keep doing what your doing. Your fine.
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I just started shooting a few weeks ago and I find that if I try to aim after anchoring for more than two seconds I end up way off my intended placement, especially at further distance. I find myself drawing up and pointing with my knuckle and anchoring, I look at my target while taking a breath in, then out and releasing. If I focus too much the shot is trashed.
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I paid special attention to this at the Widdingham shoot and found there are people who maybe shoot even a little quicker on the snapshot than I am.... interesting...
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I shoot the same way but for me to make it work right, it is critical that the drawing of the string is mostly back movement. This ensures that I won't creep when I get to anchor and release. It also ensures that my shoulders are lined up with each other. Many of the shooters like Hill and Shultz make this look relatively simple but it requires work to get even a Snap shot right.
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Who cares what "they" say. If you are shooting well and are satisfied with the results, just keep on keeping on.
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Yeah, I really don't care 'what they say', but it does irk me that 'they' mislabel it. Like said earlier, TP isn't snap shooting. TP is early releasal due to a mental issue, or even unable to let go without panic if you hold. TP is not just early releasal.
I agree, good thread. Too bad some one left the forum over this. His loss.
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I really admire guys who can shoot this way. I can if I stay close 15 yards or less but, really even then it isn't that fast and fluid and my accuracy suffers. I think I just lack the natural hand eye coordination for it. I tried for some time but, it just doesn't suit me. I am the steady draw and hold at anchor guy. It's all that consistently works for me. More power to you though man!
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I admire the archers who have enough control of their shot to shoot fast or slow as they see fit for the circumstances.
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John Schulz said that Hill anchored for 7/8 of a second. Looking at the videos, I would say that was about as long as he ever held. It was more like, sometimes much less to none. Even when he was at anchor, it was not a static lock up. With emulating Hill, the pit falls seem to be draw length control and tempo control. I had a period where my drawing speed accelerated and when I tried to slow it down, I jerked the last few inches. Even at higher tempos, it is important to stay smooth and even.
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It's interesting when you watch an old Fred Bear video called Bwana Bowman with Bill negley. My favorite part is when his native tracker takes his 100# bow and shoots it, he has a crazy unique style of shooting but is accurate. After seeing that I realized that if it works for you then who cares what others think. You can watch it here Bill Negley Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tELwpv2gFAU) , the part I'm talking about starts at 6:35
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That tracker's technique is a great example of how good back tension helps shot placement...and it's not too shabby for handling heavy bow weights either (lol).
This thread was about snap shooting but it raises attention to an important problem facing hunting archers today...a recurring bias against practicing a fast and uncomplicated) style of shooting (like snap shooting) in favor of a more technical and competitive style focused primarily on achieving maximum target accuracy. The latter is by far the most popular instuctional approach touted on most barebow recurve chat sites now, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that style for it's purpose. The problem comes when individuals (including some who visit this site) speak disparagingly of snap shooters or basically of any 'simpler' style that doesn't fit the standard target shooting mold. I can respect interest in shooting targets with repeated precision, but, not at the expense of insulting those who don't share a unflexing enthusiasm for a more calculated/rigid shooting style. That is where lies the greatest risk when it comes to welcoming and helping new shooters into archery...the formation of a Hatfields and McCoys feud/disrespect between shooting techniques and their followers. Learning form isn't just about how we individually choose to shoot, it's also about how or whether we respect (personally and publically) someone else's choices.
Sometimes I wish the tolerance message was a mandated permanent sticky on every new thread opened on every archery website out there. It could solve alot of 'misplaced enthusiasm' and arguments before they become contentious or insulting. We need to be reminded. Like my dear Mom used to say, there are times when a slap up' side the head can be a good thing.
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I'd never disrespect jackdaw's shooting because I've seen him shoot and he hits what he is aiming at. Besides I want one of his bows....this one...Ed HOLCOMB 59' KODIAK 47#! It shoots like a dream.
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may have to will it to you reddogge....!!!! you ARE the man...!!
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TSP really nailed it square on the head..!!!! There are quite a few archers who come on here straight from the compound realm, where "aiming" and "holding"" are the "dominant " form..!!
I'm very impressed with the quality feedback from all of you...meaning perhaps it is a topic many of you think about..???? I will continue my Snap Shooting style....it works for me..!!!
however, it cost me having my dear shooting buddy Monkeyball from posting on here. Wasnt mad at me...but sometimes things get a little rowdy where opinions are concerned. Hope to see him back on here.....he is a true asset to any site he pontificates upon....LOL...
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I'm one of "those" competition 3D stickbow shooters, and I don't care how you shoot. While I can understand some hunting shots may require different timing, but basing every shot on snap shooting timing whether you are shooting targets or game, they are the same thing, just a target. In my mind there is no difference, you still have to hit the mark whether it's a live animal, a 3D target, or paper. A target is a target.
The comments I've heard are quite ridiculous at some 3D events. things like, "If the target had fur on it I'd have hit it" No...sorry you wouldn't have hit that either. I'm not condemning anyone or trying to be offensive, it's just observations. I can practice fast shooting as well, I can do well at that if the hunting situation calls for it. But always remember, when you put all your chips on one style, your are in fact teaching your subconscious that this is always the right way to shoot, when in reality one style does not fit all. Let me clarify, I have a sequence that I follow every time I pick up a bow. I do it the same every time to build consistency.
Which snap shooters often do the same thing, but the difference is, by teaching my brain and muscle memory that it's ok to take 5-6 seconds at full draw to make a shot. Many of the folks I see simply cannot do that. They've taught themselves that is what a shot is supposed to be like. Not every shot requires a rushed pace, even in hunting situations.
Our brains will always take the past of least resistance, at full draw the weight immediately starts a sense of urgency to get rid of it. To overcome this urge you have to teach yourself that it's ok to hold. I'm not saying every style doesn't have it's place, but try to expand your experiences and then decide whats best. To simply say I shoot this way because Howard did is short changing yourself.
Todays top 3D shooters, which also translates into the same hunting accuracy, have experimented with literally all styles of shooting and all types of equipment. It's not by luck that the top guys score like they do. I hope none this is taken as offensive or degrading, it's not the intent. My intent is to show you there are more than Howard's or Johns way of shooting, and it takes experimenting and thinking outside of the box to improve. Truth be told in my experience, hunting is way easier than maintaining your shot sequence and performing well at high levels of competition.
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I've been in group with "those" competition 3d shooters at some bigger outdoor shoots. Its fun to watch someone hit 12's and a rare 10 when attempting very challenging, and sometimes long, shots. The majority of these types of shooters (that I have shot with personally) were 3-under gap shooters. Having a mastery of that style can really lead to some impressive consistency, on 3ds and on paper. I doubt that I will ever get that good at target shooting the way that I do, although my style of shooting has rarely let me down in a hunting situation, where there is rarely time to analyze the shot, figure on an appropriate gap, draw-anchor-expand-expand-expand-release. I don't think I've killed an animal with my bow that would have allowed that. While I may never break 200/300 on NFAA 300 round or shoot 12's and 10's throughout a 3d shoot, I have plenty of reassurance knowing that I've never arrowed an animal that did not quickly and humanely go down.
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Hey c'mon everybody the speed at which you shoot an arrow is personel preferance, snap shooting is faster and fine, but short drawing is wrong.
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Take a look at these if you are interested in Snap Shooting...
http://adventurousbowhunter.com/2012/04/12/snap-shooting-i/
http://adventurousbowhunter.com/2012/04/19/snap-shooting-ii/
http://adventurousbowhunter.com/2012/04/26/snap-shooting-iii/
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I tried your method this fall and have found my shooting to be more consistent in short time. It gives me the rhythm I felt I needed and also helps with continuing the push/pull. I used to have trouble dropping the bow arm, but this method seems to help that as well. It does take full concentration to work. I also draw bow with bow up in position. So there is no extra bow arm motion to throw shot off.
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I do the same focus on spot push,pull to anchor and release. Can't hold or will lose my focus
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I had an 8 year old instinctor once.....
She was quite fearless herself and still is...
click here for little Indian sneak shot (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry31.wmv)
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Terry nice video. I guess our 8 yr olds taught us a lot back then.
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Yes sir....still teaching me.....if you want to see what she's instincting now mosey over to
www.bowhush.com (http://www.bowhush.com)
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I know plenty who shoot this way, and they hit the target really well. I wish I could.
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I liked this thread when it was first posted and I just re read it, lot's of great insights.
I'm a snap shooter, pull through anchor, touch and go kinda archer. That is most comfortable and natural for me.
However, this past year I have shot many dozens of hours in practice, working on slowing down my shot.
If I add approx. two tenths of a second to "settle / align", my accuracy seems to increase. It's rare that I hold for a half second, usually much less...
A huge part of my practice has been wand shooting, working on really good alignment, so when I hit full draw, I'm all ready to release.
I also switched to a straight bow arm while drawing and to 3 under, which allows me to "aim" while drawing, albeit I'm not thinking about aiming.
I practice shooting instinctive and also practice adding that few tenths of a second and "seeing" the arrow like H. Hill talks about with split vision. I don't generally see the arrow unless I make an concentrated effort to do so. I don't gap (trajectory) but sometimes I confirm alignment (windage) with the arrow tip.
This past year I have also practiced holding for 2 seconds. While I don't shoot that way on a normal day I find it nice to be able to hold and still shoot well. I found it difficult to hold like this at first but after a few months, I can do it, if I want to.
I needed to practice holding longer to combat a certain "short draw" issue I had developed, but that's another thread.
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I at times have a problem dropping my bow arm. I have tried to deal with this problem by imagining that my "target" is staring at me and I want zero movement on my part on the release. I am a 3 under gap shooter but that does not mean I can't shoot fast when the occasion calls for it. I had a bull elk at 25 yards staring right at me, my bow arm was already up so I drew the bow as slowly and with as much control as I possibly could. The elk did not even notice the movement until the releas and I watched him go down 150 yards away. Later that same season, two muley bucks came charging out of an aspen thicket and stopped dead in their tracks at twenty yards, staring at me. In one fluid motion I came to full draw, anchored, and released. 8 seconds later I heard the buck crash. If I try to "snap" shoot, sometimes I do good, sometimes crappy. I stick to what works for me!
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If you have trouble dropping your bow arm that is a form issue....see the form clock thread at the top...proper alignment eliminates bow are dropping, allong with numerous other problems.
Here's another 'instinctor' that's about to turn 80...so we now have from 8 years old to 80 on this thread...
Flying Cups (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/ronlaclair/ronl-4.wmv) 1.3 MEG wmv file
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Thanks for deleting the post by the so-called 'King'. Heaven forbid some awful parent introduces their young son to traditional archery.
:knothead: :knothead: :knothead:
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Sorry Jabar. I :dunno: why I did it. Honestly I didn't think anyone would have noticed.
I have reposted them.
There was a time all he wanted to do was shoot -
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q93/Kingtaken/Nickatdraw_1.jpg) (http://s134.photobucket.com/user/Kingtaken/media/Nickatdraw_1.jpg.html)
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q93/Kingtaken/th_SideShooting-1.mp4) (http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q93/Kingtaken/SideShooting-1.mp4)
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q93/Kingtaken/th_Nicky_Shooting_March_07-1.mp4) (http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q93/Kingtaken/Nicky_Shooting_March_07-1.mp4)
These two videos were a alil speed shooting drill I used to do with him.
Now 9 yrs later at 17 it's hard to get'm out to shoot. He still loves it but the past few yrs it been playing & traveling for baseball on his mind.
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q93/Kingtaken/Nick%20shooting%202.jpg) (http://s134.photobucket.com/user/Kingtaken/media/Nick%20shooting%202.jpg.html)
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q93/Kingtaken/Nick%20shooting%203.jpg) (http://s134.photobucket.com/user/Kingtaken/media/Nick%20shooting%203.jpg.html)
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My hats off to you guys who snap shoot , my mind doesn't work that fast. I have to draw ,anchor , get all comfortable ,get my right sight picture then shoot.I tried the snap shooting but got tired of putting windows in my barn.
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Yes...and I'm such the AWFUL father for allowing my daughter to shoot in that same manner, even though she shoots light out!!!!
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I used to hold at anchor for a couple of seconds.
Somehow in the last few years, without trying to, i turned into a snap shooter.
Once i hit anchor the arrow is gone. If i try to hold at anchor for even a little bit my accuracy really suffers.
It is almost one continuos motion for me now.
Draw with back tension, and when my middle finger touches the corner of my mouth the arrow is gone,while i continue the follow through.
I have had people comment"boy you snap shoot", or "you shoot fast" as in it is a bad thing.
It is just more comfortable and natural to me. :archer2:
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Pulling and holding, even for a few seconds, is a good way to get joint pains if you shoot heavy bows. I don't hold at all (60#).
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Here's another goofy guy who insisted on shooting this way. Who knows what he might have been able to accomplish if he'd seen the light?
History of the Bow Part 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1M9xsoYg6I&nohtml5=False)
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"...and my practice in the past had taken care of everything....the body, the human body it's a great thing."
Love that statement. :thumbsup: :archer2:
Thanks for posting that link.
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Originally posted by eidsvolling:
Here's another goofy guy who insisted on shooting this way. Who knows what he might have been able to accomplish if he'd seen the light?
History of the Bow Part 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1M9xsoYg6I&nohtml5=False)
Just so I understand correctly, at the beginning of the video at the 20 second mark, Mr. Bear is saying he "doesn't recommend it to anybody", referring to instinctive shooting, I believe... That's an interesting statement as I have heard he struggled with target panic.
I haven't had the chance to watch the entire video.
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Snap shooting is not Target Panic. End of story Target Panic is a mental problem and not a shooting Style again end of story we need to put this to rest and quit calling snap shooting target Panic it's ridiculous
I've seen people hold an anchor have Target panic and even gasp at release fear of releasing plucking the string bow going everywhere an absolute Trainwreck by someone who held for like 6 seconds so don't accuse people of Target panic just because they are snap shooters
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When I was 16 I went to an area archery club and was told that I was a 'snap shooter'. The know it all also told me that all of the good shots like him hold for at least 3 seconds. The problem was that my arrows were all in the kill zone of the black and white paper deer target while his were all over the place. I said then and still maintain, "If I am on target as I tighten up my anchor, am I going to be more on target 4 seconds later?"
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Wow...I see this thread if mine has taken off again..!!! Terry Green is one zillion percent right..!! And bogeyriders comments are dead on..!!!! I've thought a lot about mine and many others who's draw cycle is one continous motion, vs. Those who draw, anchor and hold for 2-3 seconds. If you are gapping you must hold at least for a moment to "set the gap" before release. Same with "point on" shooting.
For those of us who draw and release immediately at felt anchor, I guess it could be construed as a timing/focus thing..?? My focus is at its peak upon felt anchor, so immediate release and follow through just naturally occur.......it just "happens"..! To hold for even a moment totally screws with the timing of the shot..! I never really thought about someone not being able to do it this way, but apparently some cannot..??? Those are the ones who always say...."you shoot too fast"..?? MADDENING..!!! If I was all over the place they may have a valid point. But on most given days, I fare quite well....!!!!!!
I've come to the final conclusion that as long as I'm satisfied with my shooting prowess...so be it. For those who cannot grasp it...they do not need too..!!! I'm glad for this post as it has brought about some, shall we say, passionate answers..!!! It is NOT target panic....its merely a method requiring great timing and focus. I'm good with that...........JACKDAW
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Oooops......double post.....
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Hill was basically a snap shooter and I think he used a split vision type of aim where he would focus on the target and the point of arrow. This seems to work for me as well and sometimes taking seconds to aim just causes a miss in my opinion.
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Yes....as a "snap" shooter, my concentration is at its peak when full draw is achieved. I need to shoot then or ir all falls apart. Its very much a rythmic thing. Hard to explain if you don't shoot this way...
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alot of respect for that man mr . fred bear, god bless him and may he be with us on the trails we hunt together.
kyle
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I have found with snap shooting that I develop a short draw more frequently than if I hold anchor and let it rip. I shoot well this way out to40yards. Howard Hill said if your form right you wont be to far off at 5o yards. Interesting
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Short drawing would-be Target panic and Howard Hill was a snap shooter.
:campfire:
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I was just watching that Fred Bear video posted a few posts back on this thread....What he says about his way of snap shooting is exactly the way I feel ....EXACTLY..!!! No I'm not putting my Archery skills on the same level as old Fred, But he explained it exactly the way a Snapshooter goes about his shot process. I was very tickled to see that! Would have loved to have seen those people say to Fred Bear himself "you shoot too fast"..?? For a long time it never occurred to me that people would have a hard time "snap shooting"..??? And I do not mean short draw Panic shooting ..!!!!! I mean AIM/DRAW/ANCHOR/RELEASE In one smooth, continuous motion....!!! Really enjoyed Hearing old Papa Bear talking about exactly The way I feel when shooting...Although I will never enjoy Even a modicum of his success, I feel a little more Vindicated in my "shooting style".....all good.
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Target panic has nothing to do with holding or snapping. It results from having a poor or nonexistent shot sequence. We always talk about good form but a good shot sequence is just as important. I developed target panic while I was a snap shooter. It carried over when I began holding. Common denominator was my lack of a good shot sequence. I take it slow because that works best for me. It works better on paper, foam, and fur. Doesn't work without a good shot sequence though.
All that matters is where the arrows go. Snap or hold, if you can't hit the mark then you can't hit the mark. People have done it very well many ways, so it just comes down to how far you want to go and how much effort you want to put into it. Everyone is on their own path, and no one can tell them how to walk it.
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Many still don't seem to know what snap shooting, as defined in earlier times, is. That is the shooting process of releasing as soon as the anchor point is reached. It does not equate with target panic. Of course, a snap shooter can develop target panic, but the quick release is not the cause. Snap shooting as a definition of a form of target panic is a newer usage of this term.
As stated numerous times, Hill and many other great archers were snap shooters, but their form was quite good. If you are shooting accurately and under control, you do not have target panic. If that is the case, do not pay attention to your critics. Unfortunately, many well meaning people speak eloquently and vociferously about that which they do not know. Just as long as you are consistently hitting the mark, all is well.
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Right on keagan and sam.....its called being "dogmatic"...Having all the answers with none of the facts. Ive been saying pretty much all along, snap shooting is merely A different form of shot sequence than holding at anchor then releasing. End of story for me..
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Originally posted by Sam McMichael:
Many still don't seem to know what snap shooting, as defined in earlier times, is. That is the shooting process of releasing as soon as the anchor point is reached. It does not equate with target panic. Of course, a snap shooter can develop target panic, but the quick release is not the cause. Snap shooting as a definition of a form of target panic is a newer usage of this term.
As stated numerous times, Hill and many other great archers were snap shooters, but their form was quite good. If you are shooting accurately and under control, you do not have target panic.
I think that the real difference between 'snap shooting' and the rest is when the aiming was done. A snap-shooter aims before his bow and arrow is 'on target'. The moment the bow and arrow is on target, the release happens as result of natural causes:
aim - checked
form -checked
Eyes-brain-hands coordination is everything for a snap-shooter.
For me, target panic is the lack of understanding of what is happening with the aiming in the process of your own shooting sequence. Form can bring you just to shoot arrows clean and close to each other. Aiming process put them in the spot.
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One thing I have noticed is that almost all of the snap shooters only do so within what I would consider a short distance (20-25 yards).
Most of them tend to hold and slow down their shot process significantly the further out they are shooting OR the more precise that they have to be with their shot which makes perfect sense.
This mainly applies to Byron and Hill.
It seems like a really solid almost necessary skill for hitting aerial targets or moving game.
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Snap shooting is harder to do at distance. At least for me. But its lethal at 30 yds in. That being said, 15 yds and in is light out. Quickly.....
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You snap shooters take heart. I saw last weekend on the live stream from Ireland in the WA field championships the barebow shooter from the German team was a snap shooter and he was in the shootoff! I don't know the longest shot he would have shot but I did see him shoot from 50 meters severly uphill.
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That's really interesting reddogge. I'm assuming he was shooting a FITA Oly style barebow rig right?
Normally those guys string walk and take their time with their shot's. Was he shooting instinctive/split finger?
That's really interesting.
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He was shooting a 25" barebow riser but I didn't take notice of the riser mfg. In this competition they could string walk and he did that on the shorter targets but I didn't note how he held the string on the last target which was 50 meters uphill so I'm assuming split finger on that one. BTW, NONE of these guys shoot instinctive.
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This thread is really interesting. I'm self taught to shoot instinctively, mainly from watching old videos with Fred Bear and Howard Hill. They snapshot, and were considered some of the best, so I figured that that was how I wanted to shoot. At that point, I didn't even know that there was any other way to shoot a traditional bow other than snap shooting. I've found that I'm effective out to about 20-25 yards, but after than I have to slow down and hold for about 1 second.
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Reddogge....If I was a dedicated Target Archer, I would regroup and learn how to string walk using the point on method......!! HOWEVER...Im interested in the 20 yd in hunter approach. That is really where I feel snap shooting shines.!!!!! It is one fluid shot process. No one taught it to me, it's just the way I learned how to shoot.
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I started in archery with a hand me down Bear Takedown in 1988 using the snap shooting style. It was all I knew at the time and it worked for me. As I got to know more people in traditional archery and shot with them, they offered advice. I ended up with target panic trying to hold at anchor. It didn't matter if it was a 35 pound bow or 70 pound bow. I got rid of the target panic by going back to a more fluid snap shooting style and began to love shooting again. Not everyone can snap shoot and not everyone can hold at anchor. I was too wrapped up trying to aim that I would stack arrows one minute and completely miss a target by three feet the next!
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I am trying to return to snap shooting this year after doing the straight arm target style for the past years. I am going to have to be very careful to not allow target panic to follow me back to the snap shooting style. For me, there are very few chances to take a buck that last for more than a second or two. I want a method that allows me to put all my concentration into focusing on my prey; picking that spot. I dont want to have to think about all the different aspects of the shot sequence in that moment. To me, it is almost like wing shooting when those bucks appear. I am on the ground and have to quickly make a shot as the buck cruises through an opening in the trees. I think this is probably how the native peoples did it...hard to say. It is more enjoyable to me to shoot this way and the way I shot when I was a kid. To each there are own and I respect they guy who can be cool calm and collect as they talk them selves through each aspect of a shot. Me, I can't seem to do that, but still, I will need to put MOST of my practice time into slowly and carefully ingraining my shot sequence on the bale. I am going to pull the arrow till the back of the point touches the bow hand fingers to ensure consistent draw with no short drawing. But, when its time to kill stumps or deer...gonna be all focus on that tuft of hair with the shot happening automatically.
Dan