Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: DanielB89 on November 19, 2014, 10:40:00 AM
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OK fellas, looking for a few opinions from you guys..
Last night I was doing some form draws(just drawing and letting down seeing where I was coming back to while looking in a mirror. I noticed something immediately, my neck and head was extended pretty far forward. I came back to the same spot every time, but it just didn't look right. Well, instead of extending my neck, i kept it relaxed and back. My arrows are 30.5" long and i'll be dang if I didn't hit my broadhead on my finger(back of finger away from bow).
I did a few test draws to see if my arms or anything had straightened out more and even had my wife look at it to see if she came up with the same conclusion, and she did, everything was the exact same EXCEPT my neck was not extended.
Which lead me to thinking.. Should my neck be extended(as I noticed that lots of people do it) or should it be as relaxed as if I were not shooting my bow.
My concerns:
If i practice with no next extension and get my form "right" in that manner, should I draw like I used to, it would definitely be a short draw.
decisions decisions..
Just thought I would share.
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Real simple, the string comes to you, you don't go to the string. I see this mistake more at shoots than any other. For some reason people think they have to contort themselves in order to shoot.
It is normal to slightly lean the head right or left depending on if one is a lefty or righty and one is canting the bow slightly, but anymore than slightly, then one must start thinking about bending at the waist.
I am sure your shooting well improve.
Good luck.
Good luck
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Sounds like you got a "free lunch"! :thumbsup:
I do agree....a slight tilt of the head is a plus for helping to focus.
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Post this in the form forum and you will get some different responses there...I think good form involves some relaxed tension but if one is going to bias a bit it should be on the side of relaxed...the proof is in the shooting so stick with what you are doing as long as you are hunting and then work on the form change later
DDave
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Extending your head/neck essentially shortens the distance between bow-hand and face, which is the presumed length of draw. If you watch a flight shooter you'll usually see the opposite, as they lean backward and do everything possible to lengthen their draw. I used to extend forward but broke that habit several years ago. I keep my head back and semi-upright at practice. If I choose to cant the bow, I can do it without a forward lean or extension. Shots out of a treestand will invariably result in some leaning/extending, but if you practice to avoid it you'll do much less of it when hunting. I think your shooting will be more consistent and controlled as well.
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One thing I like to do from time to time is watch the FITA archers shoot on YouTube...they use a bit different anchor point from what most of us use but otherwise their mechanics are a great example of what we ought to copy...lest you think they are shooting rather low draw weight bows I learned this summer that the Korean men tend to shoot about 55 pounds...and they shoot 8 hours a day
DDave
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One thing I find is that the shorter the bow the more I tend to dip my head forward to touch the string to my eyebrow because of the sharper string angle.
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Originally posted by Diamond Paul:
One thing I find is that the shorter the bow the more I tend to dip my head forward to touch the string to my eyebrow because of the sharper string angle.
to touch the string to your eyebrow?
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It's a draw check of sorts; at anchor, if I'm all the way back as I should be, the string will contact my right eyebrow over the center of my eye. If I get tired and and short draw, it doesn't quite touch, and I'll dip my head to make it touch, a bad habit I'm trying to break. I'm going back to a longer bow simply because the more upright string angle comes there more naturally. I do try to bring the string to my face, as mentioned, not go to the string, but I got into some bad habits shooting too heavy and canting and such when I started out. I still revert back sometimes when I get tired or lazy.
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Ideally, your head should sit directly on top of the spine. This is the most relaxed and ergonomically efficient position AND you are not using muscle to hold the head in a given position -- muscle that could be used for better purposes.
I'd also suggest that you do NOT contort your body to achieve an artificial "touch" point. Like the string on the eyebrow. If that works for your set up great, if not, don't move to achieve it. Find something else.
Head directly on top of the spine and don't "go to get it."
Arne
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A good coach will tell you to stand up straight.
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Thanks Arne, for chiming in here.
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Yup...head straight up, like Arne and LBR said.
That's how Rick Welch tells it too.
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All good advice - consistency with good form develops better shooting. I wish I had worked on form first but I had noone around me shooting trad and I had to unlearn some bad habits. Get the mechanics down first.
However, there is a big difference between pratice to develop form and consistency.... and practice for bowhunting. In my experience, seldom are you ever afforded the opportunity for "target form" while out in the woods hunting.
Learn consistency on the range - develop the ability to shoot with variation out in the woods stump shooting. It would be nice to always get a standing straight up, 90 degree to target, head fully upright shot out in the woods...... but in my experience it just doesn't happen that often and that is why I believe great archery shots sometimes blow a relatively easy shot in the woods. I have also noticed that a lot of folks short draw while taking hunting shots - why???? Because they are hunting, wearing heavier clothing, not able to turn 90 degrees to target, they are not warmed up, etc.... I would always check my draw length on my first arrow not after a 30 minute shooting session where muscles have been warmed and stretched.
I kind of look at it like pitching.... ideally every pitch in a game would be made from the normal pitching position as this is the best stance for consistency and mechanics. However, crap happens and then you have to pitch from a stretch position ---- not the best stance as far as mechanics and positioning, but you had better practiced it or it could be a long night.
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"Stand up Straight" is good advice. When I see a guy who is 6 feet with a 27 inch draw something don't add up. Bill
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Originally posted by DaveT1963:
All good advice - consistency with good form develops better shooting. I wish I had worked on form first but I had noone around me shooting trad and I had to unlearn some bad habits. Get the mechanics down first.
However, there is a big difference between pratice to develop form and consistency.... and practice for bowhunting. In my experience, seldom are you ever afforded the opportunity for "target form" while out in the woods hunting.
Learn consistency on the range - develop the ability to shoot with variation out in the woods stump shooting. It would be nice to always get a standing straight up, 90 degree to target, head fully upright shot out in the woods...... but in my experience it just doesn't happen that often and that is why I believe great archery shots sometimes blow a relatively easy shot in the woods. I have also noticed that a lot of folks short draw while taking hunting shots - why???? Because they are hunting, wearing heavier clothing, not able to turn 90 degrees to target, they are not warmed up, etc.... I would always check my draw length on my first arrow not after a 30 minute shooting session where muscles have been warmed and stretched.
I kind of look at it like pitching.... ideally every pitch in a game would be made from the normal pitching position as this is the best stance for consistency and mechanics. However, crap happens and then you have to pitch from a stretch position ---- not the best stance as far as mechanics and positioning, but you had better practiced it or it could be a long night.
Dave, that is some great advice.
I am still trying to find out how to stay warm without wearing bulky clothes.
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Originally posted by Bullfrog 1:
"Stand up Straight" is good advice. When I see a guy who is 6 feet with a 27 inch draw something don't add up. Bill
If memory serves me right Howard Hill was 6' 2" and his draw length was around around 27 inches. From golks who actually measured his arrows, they stated that most were 26 1/2 to 28 inches in length.
I personally believe a lot of people try to stretch their draw length and this causes all kinds of problems and is seldom repeatable out in the field under hunting conditions with hunting weight bows.
The single best method I ever used to determine true draw length was to use a wood yard stick, butt it against your sternum and hold it straight out from your chest. Now reach forward with both hands, with fingers straight, and measure where your index finger tip touches the stick. You must do this with both shoulders relaxed. I think a lot of folks might be a little surprized if they tried this.
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With the garments available today, there is no reason to have to get so bundled up that one can't keep good form.
I spot and stalk, I no longer wait for things to happen, so I am having to contort not only for the shot, but also to get into position for a shot, but I always do my best to maintain good form.
One can maintain good form bent over forward or backwards, standing or kneeling, laying down, facing up or down, etc.
Form is everything, because when that time comes where my form might have to be less than 100% to make a shot, my form will usually suffer less negative results than someone who has less than good form under normal conditions.
At least this is my take on it.
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GOSH!!! SOOO much misunderstanding about "target form" and hunting requirements.
Standing up straight is perceived as "target form" AND believed inapplicable to hunting.
Standing up straight on a target range is a good way to LEARN form and execution. BUT that stance is NOT form!! Form is the relationship of your arms, shoulders, back and head (basically the waist up).
Learn form the easy way -- by standing straight up -- good support of the upper body. Learn to achieve good alignment and consistent FEEL of alignment. THEN!! Learn to get that arm, shoulder and head alignment from ANY support structure. Standing, kneeling, squatting, sitting, hanging by your toes; the support ultimately doesn't matter IF you can achieve the power unit alignment.
Your support structure IS NOT FORM, your form is from the waist up.
Arne
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Originally posted by moebow:
GOSH!!! SOOO much misunderstanding about "target form" and hunting requirements.
Standing up straight is perceived as "target form" AND believed inapplicable to hunting.
Standing up straight on a target range is a good way to LEARN form and execution. BUT that stance is NOT form!! Form is the relationship of your arms, shoulders, back and head (basically the waist up).
Learn form the easy way -- by standing straight up -- good support of the upper body. Learn to achieve good alignment and consistent FEEL of alignment. THEN!! Learn to get that arm, shoulder and head alignment from ANY support structure. Standing, kneeling, squatting, sitting, hanging by your toes; the support ultimately doesn't matter IF you can achieve the power unit alignment.
Your support structure IS NOT FORM, your form is from the waist up.
Arne
Agree somewhat. Form to me is more than alignment (which may or may not go out the window under real hunting conditions? Ever been on the ground and have a deer catch you off guard and walk to 15 yards not allowing you to square your shoulders to the target? I certainly have and I've killed that deer more times than not even though I did not have" proper" upper body alignment) because I have practice that very shot many times. Same with the deer that never presents a clean shot until he is directly under your stand - try that while maintaining the same upper body alignment - I've seen very few people that can actually bend 90 degrees at the waist and draw a hunting weight bow and maintain the same alignment that they use while shooting perpendicular to the ground……. I am certainly up to seeing some pictures of that… try it on where you are right now – stand up, draw an imaginary bow like you are shooting perpendicular to the ground. Now try to bend at the waist and shoot at an imaginary deer standing at your left foot (for right handed shooters) --- what happened to your draw elbow? Are your shoulders both aligned to the target????? Guess that shot is impossible to make? I've got a few deer on the wall that would hardly agree. Once again, I made that shot because I practiced it – not because I practiced alignment.
Form to me is a rock steady bow arm that remains on target until the arrow hits the target, a solid anchor, consistent draw length (and this can vary depending on conditions, angle, etc.), and releasing the string cleanly and following through after the shot.... and to accomplish those tasks as consistently as possible. I do this by practicing under hunting conditions and through stump shooting from many unorthodox positions.
But hey, in all honesty, most of you might kick my butt on the range…. But my freezer is seldom lacking for venison. No right or wrong way – to me, it's all about adaptable consistency practiced under hunting conditions.
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I think what Arne is saying, and you can see it on Terry Green's canting vids, is that once proper form is established in a controlled environment (the range) it can be applied to any convoluted situation you might encounter in the woods. Although Terry's body positions are certainly not orthodox, the relationship between his anchor, bow hand, and string hand/elbow are the same in all those positions, and his draw length doesn't change.
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Yes I got that DP - and I agree with a lot of what he says. He has actually helped me wiht my shooting form time to time.
What I am saying is that yes that is the ideal state - that you always maintain that "proper alignment" at all times under all conditions....
but IMHO, under hunting conditions that is not always the case. Even Bryan Ferguson talks about short drawing in hunting conditions.
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Daniel, if it were me, I'd listen to Arne. He's forgotten more than I've ever learned about shooting.
As for clothing, remember that keeping one part of your body warm, will help with others. Also remember that your head and neck will loose lots of heat if not properly clothed. This is what I do: head & neck properly clothed; overdo my legs and chest (vests and long sleeve shirts with sleeves cut down); leaving my arms less bulky.
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I can't imagine short drawing on purpose, but I suppose it could happen if you were squeezed into a weird enough postition, perhaps with a tree behind you that wouldn't let you get all the way back.
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Originally posted by Diamond Paul:
I think what Arne is saying, and you can see it on Terry Green's canting vids, is that once proper form is established in a controlled environment (the range) it can be applied to any convoluted situation you might encounter in the woods. Although Terry's body positions are certainly not orthodox, the relationship between his anchor, bow hand, and string hand/elbow are the same in all those positions, and his draw length doesn't change.
yup. doesn't matter if you are laying on your belly, laying on your back, twisting to shoot behind your tree....your alignment, drawlength, anchor ie form should not change.
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I'll add one more thing. When you hunt, don't most of you wait for the quarry to "present" for a shot? That is broadside, quartering away, etc. I think most would say they do. Why then would we not wait for a shot that we can do with practiced form or alignment?
Yes, I too have been caught "unready" but when that happens, it is no different to me whether I can't shoot because the target isn't right OR I can't do it right. I for one would not compromise my execution anymore than I would try a "Texas heart shot." Just say'n.
Arne
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I am no expert ...but I get critters.....if your draw length is already adequate why worry about extending it ?????
I would say accuracy is the most important aspect and end result....if you have the kinetic energy already to shoot 3d or take game...why worry about draw length...consistent form regardless of style would be most important....
just my 2 cents worth...I draw 26" and use bows anywhere from 50 to 65 pounds and they all take game ...
interestingly I was shooting poorly at 3d this summer but come fall I was all good and hitting where I was looking....didn't change anything...just got confident again and seemed to concentrate better...
sometimes I think we all "over think " our form and why we miss.....
practice and confidence are my key to success...I don't put much thought into my mechanics as long as I am making the shot...
I guess if your draw length is not long enough to get the kinetic energy you need to do the task at hand then change your form but if you are already accurate and getting adequate poundage...why change >>
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after reading your thread again you pulled 30.5" ..well whatever your draw length was before it certainly would have been at minimum 28 inches ..the standard for most draw length...so just find out what is comfortable with accuracy being the end result...as everyone is saying here...consistent form...and if you hunt.... as said..... practice different positions ( kneeling, twisted . bent over on the stand etc) and with the clothing you will be wearing on the hunt...
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I don't think you should try to increase your draw length just because you think you should, or because you think you need more energy for some reason. However, if you are drawing less than you should because of some problem with your basic form, such as dipping your head to the string rather than bringing the string to your head, that's another matter. I think trying to get longer just for the sake of getting longer can create problems of its own; it did for me, as I literally overdrew the bow and had no room left to expand, so all I could do was creep, which I did, consistently.
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Lots of "misaligned" assertions on this thread.
I suppose the part that I had practiced taking that very shot many times was missed? Hardly "compromising my execution." I fully expected to, and did, kill those deer exactly as I had practiced it many times. Broadside at 15 yards is not really a compromise nor is it a "Texas heart shot"
I've learned a lot recently; I really am not shooting "instinctively" like I thought I have been for 30 years, and now I must always have perfect alignment/form or I am compromising my shot execution and somehow just not being very ethical – doesn't matter if I have practiced long hours to become profficeint at it, if my alignment is wrong I am wrong…………
damn trad archery was once simple and fun without so many absolute rules.
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You don't have to have proper alignment and/or form; you aren't required to shoot in any way that you don't care to, nor does it make you unethical if you choose to do that. However, lots of guys have discovered that many of the things they were doing when they took up traditional bows are not necessarily the best way to do them if they want to hit anything consistently. Shooting a bow is shooting a bow, and basic form doesn't vary depending on the type of bow you are shooting if you want to be good at it.
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Your definition of "good" and mine may differ quite a bit, though.
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Dave,
I don't think that anyone (especially me) is saying you need "perfect alignment/form" whatever that might be. Yes, I saw that you practiced different situations and that is good!! You are consistent with what you do and that is fine. We all know there are NO absolute rules. Please don't take it as that.
Basically, I'm trying to suggest that what a person does in practice is what you should do in hunting and not try for an "off the cuff" shot. I do not think that is what you do at all, from what I read in your posts.
Arne
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No worries Arne I have always respected your views and videos. Like I said in the beginning I wish I had have had a good teacher when I began as I had to unlearn a lot of bad habits.
Get a solid foundation to start. ... then practice as you play. .... think we all agree on that.
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Originally posted by Diamond Paul:
I don't think you should try to increase your draw length just because you think you should, or because you think you need more energy for some reason. However, if you are drawing less than you should because of some problem with your basic form, such as dipping your head to the string rather than bringing the string to your head, that's another matter. I think trying to get longer just for the sake of getting longer can create problems of its own; it did for me, as I literally overdrew the bow and had no room left to expand, so all I could do was creep, which I did, consistently.
Paul,
my draw length is plenty long enough for me. I just noticed a flaw in my form and am working on fixing it! But an 1 of draw is another #2-3 and that means more speed, which is never bad in my book. :)
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I find that I just can't shot very well if my shoulder alignment isn't "right" Maybe some people can.
I had a stark reminder of this just the other day. I've been shooting really well. Then after a few days off because of really nasty weather and getting a new jacket I finally got out to do some shooting.
I could hit anything...well I'd get lucky with a couple of arrows here and there. I mean we're talking about some fliers. I was having fits trying to figure it out. It was like everything I had learned over the last couple of years of VERY hard work had just left me.
Then it came to me...the jacket. I forced myself to pay attention to alignment through the jacket and started clacking shafts together again.
If I'm hunting and can't get lined up "right", for whatever reason, I just don't shoot.