Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: bowhunterportugal on April 26, 2012, 01:04:00 PM
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Hi Gang,
I recently started shooting trad. I've got a Samick Stingray 58" 55#@28 and it's giving me a hard time.
I'll receive tomorrow a BW PSA V so I'm hopping that it will easy on me a little.
I use to say I'm youtube taught... Never got any lesson's!
Now that I found tradgang I was hopping you could help me on this.
Here is a video of some shooting I made today:
http://s1053.photobucket.com/albums/s462/bowhunterportugal/Trad%20From%20Training/?action=view¤t=TradForm.mp4
Comments please. All the help is welcome.
Thanks for watching.
Diogo
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Hey there,
I am not an expert and I am sure others here will be along shortly to help. From what I see, your string hand elbow is probably too high, and you maaaaay not be fully engaging your back muscles. The second part is hard to tell from the camera angles given. As I said, I am not an expert and others on here will be more helpful than me.
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Yes, I've herd that this bow is to short for me!Don't know if that's true, that it is stacking.
I have the same feeling regarding the elbow but I'm having a hard time lowering it! Didn't figured out yet.
Thanks
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Hey, I just remembered a few videos done by one of the guys here on trad gang. I am putting up a couple links to videos which should help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOlAnKHG9GM&list=UUD0ESYWAUqh8JXKtxJ8Mnvw&index=6&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LceBNHj1FDM&list=UUD0ESYWAUqh8JXKtxJ8Mnvw&index=16&feature=plcp
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Diogo, Over all you look pretty good! You look to have a very consistent shot. I do agree that it looks like you are getting your string elbow a little high. Watch yourself when you draw, your string arm comes back nice and level with your shoulders (good) then when you lift to your anchor position, you lift your entire string side by lifting your shoulder. You can really see the lift in the shoulder by watching your shirt -- see it pull up?
Try this. When you get ready to lift to anchor, just rotate your upper arm to lift the string forearm and hand to anchor. Stand near a wall or something that your elbow will just touch as you reach full draw. Now just pivot your elbow on the wall and see that your forearm and hand lift to your anchor. Try this a few times without a bow to get the feel. This motion will help lower your elbow and stop you from raising that shoulder so much.
I believe that the small out and down movement of your string hand is caused by the high elbow which is caused by lifting that shoulder; this also puts you into very high up back muscles.
As far as bow length is concerned, 58" can be a little short but you do not mention your draw length so it is hard to say. It does not look like you are getting to close to the draw limits of your current bow but how it feels to you is what is important. How long will your new PSA be?
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Trumpkin, thanks for the links. I'll look to them carefully.
Moebow, I was wishing you to help me. I didn't quite understand the wall thing and what do you mean by rotating my upper arm. Can't quite visualize what you mean. Sorry, my English can trick me sometimes, so bear with me please.
Yes, I can see the shirt now that you mentioned. It feel's that I'm lifting to get in a comfortable position. I've red so many things here about shooting form that my mind doesn't know what to think first. Back tension, tension on the bottom of my back, shoulder alignment, you name it. I'm most certain failing in all of them.
With a 62" 50#@28 bow I tried, I have draw 29". With this one I can't. Don't know why! I'm around 6'something (187 cm)so it should be no problem. But I think I'm about 28. The arrows are cut at 29, so pretty close I would say. But it feels like I can't pull it back more unless to break it in peaces! It must be my back muscles that aren't working properly.
Also,I've notice now that my bow arm bends a little when I anchor! I shoot a slightly bent bow arm with my compound so I have better movement and control when hunting from trees or tree stands. Do you think this is bad, or can it be caused by the compound form?
My PSA will arrive tomorrow evening. Saturday will give it a try. It is 60" 53#@28, so it should help a little, I imagine.
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I appreciate your help.I'll keep filming my shots so I can show you, hear your opinions and improve with them, I hope...
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Moebow, What angles should I film myself so I (and you) can see better what's happening?
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Let us see if I can explain the elbow idea from the earlier post. Stand by a wall so when you put your string arm in shooting position your elbow is touching the wall. Now, turn your elbow like you were drilling a hole in the wall with your elbow. If you drill a hole in the wall, you will find your string hand and forearm moving up to your anchor. But your shoulder will stay down.
When you draw in the video, you pull the string to a point that is just below your anchor and then lift to anchor. This is good. I am suggesting that rather than lifting your shoulder, you rotate the humerus (upper arm bone). The rotation will feel like you are drilling a hole in the wall with your elbow. See if this explanation try helps.
As far as your bow and the feel of stacking, you may be hitting the stack point on that bow. Long draw and kind of short bow along with a 55# draw will make those last inches feel pretty hard.
I think you will love your new Black Widow.
Looking forward to more videos.
Arne
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I think I got it. I'll try it to see if I can put that teaching to work.
This bow feels really hard the last inches. I'm hopping the BW can make it easier for me to tackle this form issue.
It's all part of the fun.
I'll keep you posted.
Mean while, I'll look at some of your videos.
Thanks
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Just saw your question about video angles. Straight in front of you like most of the video you just posted, directly from behind, also straight from behind but with the camera as high and looking down as possible, and one from quartering in front. These would be the best angles for a start.
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I got your email sir...will view and comment when I get a chance...under the gun at the moment...
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Thanks Terry, appreciate. Please don't call me sir! I should call you sir, not the other way around. Diogo will do. :thumbsup:
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I agree with moebow. Make sure you get back tension. You don't want to get that final squeeze by using your string arm elbow. It should feel like you are trying to touch your two shoulder blades together... just a bit. Also, once you achieve the back tension, give yourself about a half-second pause to let your bow arm settle on target. You are shooting way too fast.It will make a world of difference for you. You won't be able to tell by yourself... you will have to film this or have somebody watch you. When you are at anchor, your string arm forearm should be level and in line with your drawn arrow... both horizontally and vertically. This will also save wear and tear on your shoulders and arms ( and possibly fingers) if everything is aligned properly. The exercise that moebow suggests works wonders and will give you a good feel for a clean release, as-well-as back tension.
Find a tree, post, or building corner and stand with it over your string shoulder behind you. When you draw and anchor, make sure your string elbow touches the tree, corner, or post and apply a little pressure. You will likely be off the first couple of shots like this because you will be focusing your attention behind you, but after that it will feel pretty good to you. You will get a feel of what a clean release should feel like as well as back tension. I still use this method for a tune up every now and then.
That string arm elbow needs to be behind you in line with your arrow. Try saying to yourself as you shoot: "draw, anchor, back tension (or squeeze), pause. Your release should become automatic when your brain senses that your bow arm is where it needs to be... remember, give it about half a second pause after you achieve back tension. If you make the release a step, you may risk anticipating the release and plucking or collapsing the shot. Happy shooting,
Rick
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Hi gang,
I've shot today the BW finally! I did a video which I'll post tomorrow. I feel really comfortable shooting it but, regarding back tension, I'm having trouble identifying it.
Manitou1. If you use that technique of having something to touch with your elbow, you wouldn't have by chance a video of it so I could see exactly what you mean by that?
Well, let see tomorrow what you have to say about the video.
Thanks
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No... I don't have a video. Just draw as normal with the object directly behind your shooting shoulder... then you kind of have to lean back a bit to touch the drawing elbow against the stationary object.
Another thing... back tension is hard to feel, unless you are achieving it. Otherwise, it is absent and you cannot feel it. It is almost as if you are "poking" your chest out a little after you come to full draw. Practice squeezing your shoulder blades together without the bow. You can feel it. Just don't exaggerate it as much. After you get it, it will become pretty obvious once you know what it is and how it feels.
Shoot straight,
Rick
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I didn't read what was posted...but what I saw last week when I 1st watched was that you where all aligned as you started to draw...and still aligned about half way back....then your bow arm dropped and your drawing elbow went up.
At this point you were having to muscle the bow to keep it on target, and your energy was not directed directly toward and away from the target.
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Thanks Terry,
I received a BW PSA last Friday. Just uploading the video so everybody can tell if anything changed. I also tried to think and correct the elbow problem while shooting.
One thing is for sure, the BW is way easier to shoot than my Samick Stingray.
A couple more minutes and I'll post the video here.
Thanks
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Here is a video I made after getting some tips on this topic:
http://s1053.photobucket.com/albums/s462/bowhunterportugal/Trad%20From%20Training/?action=view¤t=VID-20120427-00109.mp4
Still struggling with the elbow and with the bow.
Video with the BW coming up...
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Diogo, Looking lots better. the last shot in this video was the best one in my opinion. I would suggest that you slow your release a little. It is kind of fast right now but over all you are looking good.
Arne
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Here is the BW video:
http://s1053.photobucket.com/albums/s462/bowhunterportugal/Trad%20From%20Training/?action=view¤t=BWFirstShots29-4-2012.mp4
Moebow, can you tell the difference? New bow, new training...
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These arrows are 32 inch long. The other where 29.Is it possible that I'm drawing more know because of the bow?! Must check.
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Looking good! Your elbow is at what I would say is exactly the correct position now. Yes, you are still lifting it but that is a good way to reach anchor and part of the draw sequence that I teach.
In the very last set of shots, watch your head in relation to the tree behind your head. As you draw, also watch the line from your belt buckle to your chin. You start out in good position but as you reach anchor, see how you lean back? Watch the belt buckle to chin line and watch your head position compared to the tree. See how your head moves back away from the target? I believe that you are feeling a different draw length because of the lean and head motion and not because you are drawing farther. Try to hold that line and your head still. Keep them where you start the draw and draw to your head but don't let it move back.
How do you like the new bow. It really looks nice and you are shooting it pretty well. Keep at it and have fun!!!
Arne
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Thanks Moebow.
In truth,I think the bow is excellent, very easy to draw, very steady in the hand but it seems a little noisy! I'll have to find a way to quiet it.
I've notice when I was shooting that my head came back. When I draw, in order to aligne the shoulders, my string hand comes way back and I loose my anchor point. I must be doing something wrong.
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The shoulder part is hard to explain in words. Your shoulders should be turning level around your spine. Your spine should be vertical and stationary like a post. Your hand reference (anchor) should not have to change (or your draw length) but it takes a little practice to get right. This is one of the areas that I recommend that a very light weigh bow (20# or less) or the rubber band I show in one of my videos is useful. Work with it in front of a mirror so you can see your self. Once you get the motion correct, then it will be easier with the bow.
Using a relatively heavy bow makes this development a little harder to learn.
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Yes, I believe you. There is to much pressure to be able to isolate a specific muscle or feeling. I'll try to borough a light bow to do that.
Is my bow arm in a good angle/position? It feels good.
Love the bow.
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Hard to tell for sure, but it looks like you're shooting off of your fingertips. If so, try a deeper hook. It will make it easier to keep your draw arm and hand relaxed and completly engage your back muscles.
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Can you explain what do you mean by shooting of my fingerstips?
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Hi Gang,
Here's another video. Comment's please. Moebow? Terry?
http://s1053.photobucket.com/albums/s462/bowhunterportugal/Trad%20From%20Training/?action=view¤t=BW1-5-2012.mp4
Thanks
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Diogo, You have made really good improvement already! Over all you show that you know what to do and how to do it right. There are a few things I will point out that need work but most of them are because of your speed in shooting arrow after arrow. I know that when the camera is on we try to get as much in a possible and to keep the video short BUT... Our muscles need a little recovery time between shots. When you practice, try to keep about one minute between shots. This gives your muscles a chance to recover a little.
Many of your shots are as good as it gets! You sometimes seem to search for your anchor. Watch how your string hand moves back and forth. I suggest that if you reach full draw with good bone alignment and back tension, when you lift your hand to your face references (anchor) it will be there. There will be no need to move around and find it.
Your speed of shooting is tiring your muscles and you are starting to collapse. A collapse is ANY forward movement after reaching full draw. You can watch (very carefully) your arrow tip in the front shots. See how it seems to move forward in comparison to the bow? Also in the later series of shots, you can see your string hand moving forward on your face. This movement shows that back tension is not increasing but being lost. This is what makes your string hand fly out away from your face on some of the shots.
As I watch your video, you have some really good shots!! But again, when you start to get tired you start to collapse. Your bow arm is about as good as it gets. In the last few sets of shots, your string elbow is in excellent position. Try to slow your release (some are really good and some are just too fast) and concentrate on NOT letting your string hand slide forward.
AS I say GREAT PROGRESS!
Arne
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Thanks Arne.
Yes, I felt tired sometimes. Yes, I was looking for my anchor. I have a 3 point anchor that naturally appeared - index finger on the corner of my mouth, feather on the nose tip and thumb knuckle on the ear lobe. Those shots that my hand is somewhat moving was that the feather point wasn't there.
I do have a question. When I was concentrating on back tension and on the elbow issue, my string arm shoulder turned and made a movement like if it has popped out. I'm having trouble in finding the words to describe it, but you can see it in some shots. It didn't hurt, it's not that. It sort like the upper muscle, the one that runs from the top of the shoulder to the neck, relaxed and made a click. The shoulder dropped, the back tension was there, it was quite comfortable and the shot came accurate. See minute 1:07 and 1:20 and watch my left shoulder. You will see it drop.
At first it looked like I was going to dislocate the shoulder. Then I tried to reproduce it, and I can, but only at full draw. While I'm drawing I haven't been able yet to find the rotation necessary to get the shoulder in that position.
Is that wrong?
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Diogo, I see what you are talking about and I cannot explain or really see what is happening. I would say though that getting your shoulder into that lower position is not a bad thing. Usually a high shoulder causes problems not a low shoulder.
Without being there and being able to put my hand on your shoulder area and seeing and feeling what is happening I cannot answer your question. If it does not cause pain or undue stress and is comfortable to do then that may be one of those individual things that happens. Be aware of the motion and if it DOES NOT hurt or cause pain AND if it seems to help your shooting then continue and do not worry about it.
IF at ANY time it becomes uncomfortable then be very careful and really try hard to find a local FITA coach to "check you out."
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About that, I'm going to meet the National Team coach this Saturday. Let see what he has to say about this. When that thing to the shoulder happens, the shoulders get leveled. Is that supposed? To have leveled shoulders, or shoulders at the same height?
Also, I can't understand if my shoulders are aligned when draw. Did that upper view showed you this? Can your keen eye see it?
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The overhead shows your shoulders in pretty good alignment. You could pull the string side shoulder back a little more BUT it is not bad in what I see in this video.
Yes, your shoulders should be level at full draw.
As always person to person is the BEST way to learn and your National Team Coach will give you the best advice compared to video and internet.
Please let me know what you find out from the coach and how your session goes.
Arne
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Will do.
Thanks Arne, you're a precious help.
Diogo
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Hi all,
Well, it seems I'm doing alright.Need practice but the fundamental is there.
I owe this to Moebow. Thanks Arne for all the help. I'll ask for you opinion once in a while.
Diogo
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That is great to hear Diogo. Glad your session went well, I always say that there is NO SUBSTITUTE for person to person coaching when it is available.
Feel free at anytime to contact me, either here, by PM or direct email -- I will be happy to help.
Arne