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Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Turkhunter on September 14, 2010, 08:23:00 PM
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I have noticed that my arrow drops about 18-20 inches when shooting at 30yds vs 20yds. My question for the instinctive shooters out there is if you are shooting at the longer distances (over 20yds do you still look at the spot you want to hit or do you pick a spot above and let the arrow drop in? I just look where I want to hit out to 20 and let my brain do the compensating but so far I cant compensate for the drop past 20 without picking a spot directly above where I want my arrow to go and then let gravity do the rest.
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I shoot at a lot of unknown distances.
I miss sometimes. I shoot until I hit the mark, and then press "save".
When my brain computes correctly, it goes where it is supposed to.
Killdeer
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I like your responce KillDeer...
Me up to 40-ish yards I'm a split vision or instinctive shooter, I look at the spot I want to hit & let my mind tell me where to point my bow arm, many times I'm real close to where I wanted to hit, sometimes I hit exactly where I wanted to & sometimes my arrows gets a time out because it did not go anywhere near what I had planed it to go.
After 40-ish yards, well I see my point so why not.
That is not part of the question.
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How do you aim at longer distances? . . . instinctively of course, lol.
No really I just do exactly what killdeer said, I hit that tiny save button forever ago and now my body knows not only how far 30ish yards is but how high to compensate. Now I NEVER shoot at known distances, or at least, they are not consciously known until after I shoot.
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I don't! 30yds is my max and that's pushing it for me. If an animal is further than that well, I guess my stalking better be good or that animal just gets to live 'til another time. :thumbsup:
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Have not shot at a deer over 20 yard since ..Heck ..I don't know when... No interest unless I can see stem comming out of it nose.
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my brain doesn't wurk wight!!!! no really my head is locked on at 20-25yds and if I shoot 30-35 I have to pick a spot high so at 30 if its a medium sized deer i have to look at the top line of the body and it should "and this is a strong SHOULD" fall right in there...
for you guys that have converted from wheels imagine your old compound only having 1 pin set at 20yds and you then shoot to 30 or 40 and so on.
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Killdeers answer is good, its just like when you throw a baseball when you throw a longer distance you look where you want it to go and let your brain so the adjusting. you have to practice it to train it. I shoot out to 45 - 50 yards, that does not mean I have to shoot deer that far, but what i find is when you are shooting pretty good at 40, you are drillin at 25 and 30.
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I gap shot until I got used to the flight. I suppose that I still have that in me with out thinking about it.
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I do alot of shooting at unknown distances on a private range that lets me shoot out to 70 yards. What I always do is just stare at the target and hold for a couple of seconds at anchor until release, then try to stay locked on until after the arrow hits. I don't pay any attention to what the yardage might be. Kind of strange but that's how it works for me. Without ridgid concentration on "the spot" I have no consistancy at any distance. My max hunting range is about 1/2 of my max practice range.
Dave
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We went out to the range the other day and I was shooting at the 20 yd. target and hitting it right off with no problems. This is the range I usually practice at. I then switched to the 30 yd. target and hit it right off. I try to practice at distances I would shoot wild game at but I think 20 -25yds. would be my limit. I concentrate on a spot and let my body and brain go on automatic.
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I look at the spot i want to hit and watch the arrow find its mark. Simple as that.
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I don't shoot instinctive but my understanding of it is that you look at a spot then pull back and let fly. So "aiming" at 10 yards or 100 would be basically the same just look at the spot you want to hit, pull back and let fly.
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I understand the whole "throwing a ball" concept but for me it hasnt translated over to archery yet. My brain seems to be pretty well locked on at 15yds I always hit about 2in high at 10, 3in low at 20, and as I said about 18-20 low at 30. How can I break through and get my bow arm to adjust automagically. I like to practice at longer ranges because it lets me focus on my form but I wouldnt shoot at an animal past 20.
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I guess I don't shoot truely instinctive past 20 yards or so, after that I know where to look in the sight window for guesstimated ranges. If I think it's about 35 yds. I know where to look in the sight window for that yardage. At 20 yds. and under I actually look thru the bow limb, Therefore the only way I can shoot is with both eyes open. Close one eye and I can't see the target.
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Originally posted by Cherry Tree:
I look at the spot i want to hit and watch the arrow find its mark. Simple as that.
I don't think I could have explained how I shoot any better than Cherry Tree but I have to add in a twist of Killdeer actions/thinking routinely.
God bless, Mudd
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Never look at a spot other than the one you wish to hit. Give your brain something to work with and it will catch up.
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I have found good practice is to never step off yardage. I set up 3 or four targets different yardage and shoot from different spots with out thinking about how far the targets are. And I never shoot more than three times at one target in a row. Frustrating at first but after "A LOT" of misses suddenly your brain takes over and does what you can't do by trying.
My worst time at a 3d shoot this summer was when I got stuck with a couple of guys that were shooting in the open class and they were constantly discussing what their range finders were reading.
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The more steady your focus is on one spot the better it can compute what you need to do. When I do stop to think about I see the angle of the arrow and try to visualize where I have to hold it to make that arc hit the target. when I do it that way I need to hold for a second or so. when it just feels right i bite into the anchor and let go. Somehow I can remember where things were and how it all looked when I did it right. I cannot remember a thing when I did all wrong.
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Turkhunter, if you have the space and can next time you shoot don't shoot from the spot you normally shoot. Your brain takes in all the info associated with that given target and when you adjust to shoot your brain is trying to recreate the results you had at 20 yds. When you shoot instinctive there is still a sight picture. You may not have an awareness of it but the brain sees and calculates from info gathered. Throw objects into a field some small some large walk to unknown distance look where you want the arrow to go, and only where you want the arrow to go. You will surprise yourself, remember only look where you want the arrow to go don't try to make it go there. There is a difference and it does work I made 2 shots on a bale a few weeks ago last 2 shots of the day. I walked away at a angle from the bale to simulate a quartering away shot turned nocked the arrow looked at a spot on the bale and let it go. I followed with another shot turning my back to the target and twisting my upper body toward the target let it go and the 2 arrows were less than 3" apart. I took out my rangefinder I use for golf and I was 32 yds. I don't check my yardage before but after the shot when I feel I am over 25 yds keeps me on my toes.
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Longer distances are common in 3-D and stump shooting and learning to hit them is usefull practice. I shoot basic instinctive out to about 35 yards depending on the bow and arrow combination I'm using and after than I put the point of the arrow either on the target or over the target based on years of shooting experience.
Hitting a large caribou target at 60-70 yards is possible but not 100 percent reliable. Fun when you do though.
Like Killdeer says trial and error.
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I find that if I do anything other than my usual shot routine at longer distances that it screws up my normal hunting distance routine. I have had
the best luck increasing my shot distance just by increasing my normal practice shots with a second target just a few yards further away and then alternate between the two during practice and then increase the distance of the second target as I improve. Thats just me.
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getstonedprimitivebowhunt has it about right for hunting.
I've played with bullet drop for years and years. Plus I've moved that info over to archery.
Here's the thing. If a deer is at 20 yards and you miscalculate plus/minus 2 yards, your deer is still dead. If a deer is at 40 yards and you miscalculate by plus/minus 2 yards, you have a wounded deer that won't be recovered. The reason is because of the tremendous amount of arrow drop at those distances with most all traditional archery equipment.
In addition, just because elk has twice the size kill zone as a whitetail doesn't mean you can shoot him at twice the distance. Same reason.
So, it seems that, when hunting, hunting skill should take over from target shooting skill and rule how you approach the task at hand.
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I'm with Killdeer on the method and "press save" part. One boyer was instructing me to site using my fist on the bow as a mark for distance, but my mind just wanted to do it by itself. I shot better by trusting my instincts.
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Up tp 20yds my computer works fairly well and I do not shoot at deer over that.when shooting 3D over 20 I pick my same spot settle in draw and at that point I let my computer tell my bow hand how far to raise up while still focusing on my spot an let er rip.after 20yds my groups get worse but think the main reason for this is the further you shoot the more critical your form becomes with every yard.I think if you are one of those fortunate enough to be able to see your arrow point that gap is the best method for accuracy at longer distances I can not see mine.I shoot quite a bit of 3D and it is had to compete at longer distances with the guys shooting gap but 20 and under my instinctive can hold it's own.
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I visualize the arc my arrow will take in order to hit my spot . I have trouble with close shots , sometimes hitting about 3" high when trying to hit an actual spot or bull on a target , but shooting at an empty bale and picking a spot , I hit it most of the time. gillchaser
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The way I get better is to start close and keep backing up, then walk back in as you shoot. You will rapidly build the "instinct". It's all practice 'till you just shoot it where it is. Ask any 12-15 year old archer, or hoop-shooter, baseball pitcher. Concentrate and shoot a lot wih good form. Form form form.
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I do it just the opposite of that. I first make sure I am shooting with as near a perfect static form as possible, then with whatever bow/arrow combination I have at the time, I find my point on and then work in. To be honest, the point where I don't need to do so much static calculating and aiming is where I like to call my maximum range.
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I personally have found that I have to focus on the spot intensely and I shoot well. If I let my focus waiver and just look at the animal or target I do not shoot as well. It doesn't matter the range to me. Now I would not shoot at a deer over 30 yards max...with 15 to 20 being my preferred max distance. As said by the others I like to practice at all different ranges and I let my brain compute what I do. Good or bad shooting the brain and body learns from it. Early on I tried the gap or point of aim shooting but I don't think it works as well for me. I can do it but try not to. :archer2:
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By the way those who profess never to shoot over 20 yards need to expand their horizons by doing some stumping or 3-d shooting. You are missing out on half the fun of archery and watching arrows fly.
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this weekend I found that shooting at round bails at 62 yards (point on with blunts) is a lot easier than shooting them at a hundred plus yards. It is hard to hit something when your hand covers the target. Now if I were to have taken a shot at that group of turkeys that spotted me while I was shooting at those round bails, I would have been prepared to have that secondary aiming point dangling in the clear blue autumn sky. Just kidding, but I really do get a kick out of taking super long shots at six foot round bails.
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Struggled with longer distance shooting consistency for along time until I just decided to leave the 25yd and closer shooting Instinctive and use a Gap method for longer ranges and my consistency improved dramatically. My natural instinctive point on is abut 20yds so when I draw, anchor and settle in I am on at 20 so anything from 10-25yds or so I am good, maybe a little high or low but still in the kill. Now for longer ranges with my high anchor point I am just about point on at 35yds so that has me holding the insert or back of point on the bottom of the chest at 30 and top of the back at 40 and I can wear out the 3-d targets with those holds and put them in the kill. Now anything over that is just a crap shoot for me so I don't shoot any further. Only negative to using a gap method is having to know the distance so I don't use it much for hunting unless I am positively sure of the range.
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I look at the spot and shoot instinctive no matter if its 10 yards or 100.
It takes practice and lots of arrows to learn the trajectory. It doesn't happen over night, or without commitment.
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i get a quiver full of arrows.then i walk around the yard shooting from different spots every shot.if you do this enough your brain will learn to hit at different distances.if you think about aiming you will probably miss.try not to think,just aim and shoot.hope this helps,steve
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
I look at the spot and shoot instinctive no matter if its 10 yards or 100.
I am a left hand shooter. Normaly right handed, but my left eye is a lot of better. So if i am looking at a spot beyond 40m, the arrow is in front of my view. I can not compensate this in any way. This is because my right eye is not as good as the left.
Gundog
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The Olympic style shooters figure it takes an archer at least ten years to reach their potential.
Get back to us after you have been shooting instinctively for ten years and let us know how it is going.
Seriously, if this was not difficult we would not be doing it. We would all be shooting compounds with sights or guns for that matter. Limit your shots on game to whatever effective kill distance you choose. Mine right now is 15 metres under perfect circumstances and 10 if less than perfect. Maybe in ten years it will still be 15 metres, maybe a bit further.
My friend Marty, who I once witnessed staying with a compound shooter in a side by side match out to well over 30 yards (they were shooting through a 4X6 inch "kill zone" on a steel antelope) still sets up for hunting shots at 12 to 15 yards. He once shot a buck at 12 feet out of a ground blind.
DDave
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Glad I'm not an Olympic shooter....it sure didn't take me 10 years to get seriously accurate, nor most instinctive shooters I hunt with.
Just don't want someone's bubble to get busted by reading it take 10 years to get accurate and be able to kill stuff....cause that is FAR from the truth if you really want to learn and commit.
However, I do remember that Olympic shooter that won the gold back in 96 missing his 1st two deer around 20 yards after the games. Targets and live animals are two totally different games, and comparing the two as apples and apples doesn't do either any good. HH said it best....and I agree with him.
I've taught several folks to be pretty proficient at 15 yards after one shooting session.....what they do after that is up to them and the talents God gave them and how much they apply themselves. Lots of those guys started killing game the next season....not 10 years later.
So, don't be discouraged in your game by someone's comments from another game.
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Originally posted by pavan:
this weekend I found that shooting at round bails at 62 yards (point on with blunts) is a lot easier than shooting them at a hundred plus yards. It is hard to hit something when your hand covers the target. Now if I were to have taken a shot at that group of turkeys that spotted me while I was shooting at those round bails, I would have been prepared to have that secondary aiming point dangling in the clear blue autumn sky. Just kidding, but I really do get a kick out of taking super long shots at six foot round bails.
Yeah! And once you've killed one, you can hollow it out and make a blind out of it!!
:goldtooth:
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My question for the instinctive shooters out there is if you are shooting at the longer distances (over 20yds do you still look at the spot you want to hit or do you pick a spot above and let the arrow drop in?
I guess if anyone tells you something other than "I focus on the spot and just shoot" they are not instinctive archers and are mixing systems. ;-)
I hunt instinctive and keep it to 30 yards or less. However, for field work and roving I have a few "cheats" that get me to 65 yards or a bit further. I know my "point-on" range, which varies a bit by bow, of 65 yards +/-. That is, if I look at the target the tip of my arrow will appear to just touch the impact point at 65 yards. Don't tell the compound shooters as this is worth a soda, usually. "Bet I can hit that 3-D deer from here". Once you go down that dark side path you can "walk-the-tip" and hold-over or under with the "phantom" tip as you focus on the target (this might be where Hill was going with his "split-vision" technique). I can hit tree-stump sized targets out to 80 yards more often than not doing this, but it will goof up your instinctive brain and I always fire off a few instinctive shots to "recalibrate" my mind after doing these.
If I am in a deer situation and start to think about things like hold over or point-gap I might as well skip the bow entirely and throw the arrow overhand.
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Oh...sorry....thanks Stump....I usually am the guy that answers the original question....my bad.
I look at the spot.
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I started my shooting practice with my kids not knowing anything about archery. What we wound up doing was shooting at 5 yards, walking back 7 or so paces, shoot again.... move forward.. back to 30 yards etc... for months and now for me years....
We shot at slippers, golfballs stuck in haybales and now coffee cans and homemade deer/sheep/goat targets out of scrap foam.
What I was taught by old timers, was finally anchor. Once I learned what the importance of anchor was, I was able to improve my accuracy, but more importantly, that computer you've been hearing about between your ears, has something it can reliably assimilate.
If I had one thing I'd contribute to this discussion, is make sure you've a reliable anchor point and the rest becomes more meaningful.
Much Aloha... :cool:
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I always look at the spot where my arrow hits therefore I am usually dead on, tried it the other way and I was not as consistent.
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I can't agree with you more Rattus58..
The anchor point (is the foundation) of all aspects of archery...
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If I am in a deer situation and start to think about things like hold over or point-gap I might as well skip the bow entirely and throw the arrow overhand. [/QB][/QUOTE]
LOL! I hear ya, just bore a hole through the spot with your concentratuion when you are in "combat mode" shooting at a critter!
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Last week I had one of those days where everyting came together. At about 40 yards I could shoot and follow the arrow and actually see it hit the target spinning and come to a stop. I can't usually muster up that amount of concentration every shot. Even at 20 yards
Anchor and release are the foundation that allows me to hit what I am aiming at with any degree of consistency even out to longer yardages where I will slip into a gap shooter for sure.
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Now if I could just do this at 60 yards or even 100 I would be really happy. But I can't right now. But I'm going to practice.
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You have to know the cast of your bow and practice some long shots. Once you know the cast of your bow you can see the arrow in your mind and the tradjectory it has to take to get to the target. You should not be far off if you do this right.
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finally I find another guy that shoots like i do. pure instinctive. i am talking about "precurve". I knew there had to be another one of us out there. it is so simple and guys make it so darned difficult. just look at the target the very last thing and the fingers will release and teh arrrow will go where the eyes are looking. i have shot elk and deer beyond 60 yards on more than one occasion. the distance meant absolutley nothing to me because i had not a clue what it was untill i stepped it off. i surprised my self. i set up a set of circumstances and when the circumstances are met the arrow leaves the bow. some times i remember drawing the bow. most of the time i only remember seeing the arrow in flight. setting up the circumstances is like saying "when he steps out behind that tree", "when his left foot goes forward", when he puts his head down to drink". If he doesn't do what i set down as the triggering event,he walks till another day. when i am hunting i need a triggering device any more to shoot an animal.
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Good post Kip..
I too shoot purely instinctive .
Most of the time when I practice,I have no clue how many arrows I shoot, until I take them out my target.
As far as how I aim at longer distance, (I don't)..
I look at what I want to hit, (the smallest target possible)
Usually the size of a bottle cap past 30yds..under 30yds, its usually the size of an X..
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I find I'm my most accurate shooting instinctively BUT it really only works at short range -25y, anything past that I now use Split/Gap/POA.
I remember a few years back shooting alone on my range at a 60y Deer, 3 arrows instincticely and didn't hit squat when I looked back I could see the red stake that I just shot from and thinking its not that far and took 2 shots at the red stake, nailing it twice, it then dawned on me that I was looking at the Deer and not picking a spot.
I think when it comes to longer 3D shots another aiming method is a better choice unless its a small object like a Rabbit or the red stake that I shot, something you can really zone in on. If it's long range and large like a 3D Deer we tend to find it hard to ignore the whole animal and only pick a small spot.
confidence is a BIG factor in shooting so use what makes you the most comfortable, long range shooting is only really in IFAA 3D and marked Field for short range Bowhunting, Fita and IBO 3D Instinct is as good (if not better) an aiming choice as any other.
People I see shooting instictively bad are bad for two basic reasons, first the dont understand the dedication required to shoot instinct well and second they believe all thats required is to focus on a small spot really hard and everything well be good i.e they have no solid form to back it up.
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good post Steve !
Im am blind in my right eye and so by definition am left handed in the shooting sports . Past my POA my bow hand is beginning to block out the target so I reference something above the target if possible ... at 70 and 90 i use a lower anchor point.
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The only way I can hit anything at any distance is to 100 percent stare at it and only it.I have found in 40 years of hunting the key for me is TRUST or Blind faith, sometimes its hard to do.
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20 to 25 yards is my limit. I just trash arrows at 30.
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When my brain computes correctly, it goes where it is supposed to.
Killdeer, I don't have that much RAM.
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Originally posted by Ravenhood:
The only way I can hit anything at any distance is to 100 percent stare at it and only it.I have found in 40 years of hunting the key for me is TRUST or Blind faith, sometimes its hard to do.
ditto couldnt have said it no better!
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20 yds from the ground and 20 yds out of a climber is what gets me. I always shoot high out of tree
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I aim high on my target, its just a matter of practice. I rarely hunt past 20, so its not an issue for me.,
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I shoot purely instinct, never paying attention to the arrow. I focus both eyes on target ,regardless of distance, and let her rip. I do spend at least half of my practice sessions shooting from 60-80 yds, this has sig. improved my shooting.
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The club I go to there is s goat with compound stakes at 60yards with a good back drop. A lot of us trad shooters will use this as a fun shot and the instinctive shooters do better than gap shooters. Same as always I just pick a spot brain takes over and arrow flies. I hit more often than I miss but I'll never shoot that far at game.
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The club I go to there is s goat with compound stakes at 60yards with a good back drop. A lot of us trad shooters will use this as a fun shot and the instinctive shooters do better than gap shooters. Same as always I just pick a spot brain takes over and arrow flies. I hit more often than I miss but I'll never shoot that far at game.
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Killdeer said it better than I could. Same way for me Killy. BTW, big fun stumpin out to 50 yards or so.
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I'm like many on this thread. I shoot with the arrow low in my vision up to 30 yards or so. At this shortish range I never look directly at the arrow point. That always throws off my timing. I am aware of it, however, and use it to align windage.
Past 30 yards, or so, I start to pick a secondary aiming point relative to the target and place my arrow point in this area. Once my bow arm/arrow is in this slot, I draw completely and release while looking at the target only.
This is gap shooting and nothing new. Many shoot like this. For me point-of-aim is about 50-60 yards depending on the speed of the bow I'm shooting at the time.
Jack
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In open terrain, I have a more difficult time being accurate out to or slightly beyond forty yards. If I have a reference of where twenty is, it helps me alot. for example, if I can find a tree or a bush that I know is twenty yards, I can invision where twenty more is and go from there. For some reason this helps.
Now if I can have TWO shots, my second one is rarely dissappointing...but this ain`t mamby pamby land. :D
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Between 28 and 42 yards I use the tip of my arrow and beyond 42 I use the arrow shelf as a point of reference.
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Killdeer's response is right on the money. Shoot enough and its automatic
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Even before Asbell wrote his latest article in Tradbhuntr I have shot many more arrows at long distance than I ever do at close range. In a normal walabout for stumps if I shoot 50 arrows 45 or more will be more than 40 yds with many out beyond 60 yds. The few I shoot at deer hunting distances just feel like gimmes. As fo aiming??? I look at the spot and shoot, the brain takes care of the rest!
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I was always told that anything up to 30yds just pick a spot and shoot. I have never practiced much at longer distances even when I've been out west hunting Elk. The closer I can get to those critters the better my confidence gets.I have found that most of my shots have been in that 10, to 25yd range. No matter if its Elk, Deer, Bear, or pigs thats my range. Through the years I've learned to wait for the animal to come to me. Not only does that give him time to get into my zone, but I learn alot about hunting by watching there movements.
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I use a deer decoy/target and move distance each shot up to 50 paces.Just walk stop shoot,don't think about how far.Longer shots help to actually see tragectory of the arrow.Long, sort, mix it up/instincts do the rest for me.Focus on small kill spot,heart will do it.
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I also shoot out the upstairs window at ground targets at several different distances to simulate tree stsnd shots.Sitting, standing,kneeling,one knee,both knees,mix it up have fun relax.
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I am 40 years old and just started shooting, joined a local archery club and last Sunday was the 2nd time that I went out and shot. I am shooting a takedown with 20# limbs for now to make sure I get my form and anchor correct, will be moving onto a 40# bow very shortly but I have found even with the trajectory of the lesser poundage if I try to "aim" by sighting down the arrow or any method other than just looking at the target and clearing my mind I am not that accurate. As soon as I stop aiming and "feel" where it needs to be they start flying where I want them :)
Shot the 3d targets for the first time and hit most of them consistently when I didn't try to put too much into "thinking" about the shot ;)