Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: gobblegrunter on September 13, 2010, 08:57:00 PM
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Hi all,
I'm a recent wheelie convert, (sold my compound to buy my first custom longbow). It was always a big "no, no" to grip the compound riser because of torque, but it seems to be common practice amongst trad shooters with their bows. I suppose that due to less stored energy there isn't as much concern of torque?
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Not an expert - but I don't grip it to death. I guess I would say "medium".
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Remember how you used to hold your girlfriends hand?
Just like that.
Joshua
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like G. Fred says, "you gotta grab that longbow and wrestle it into submission". or something to that effect.
if it's a nice, fat Hill-style grip, it won't torque.
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Tight on a longbow and loose on a recurve. Also your grip on a longbow should be gripped slightly toward the shelf. Dick
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Your bow will teach you how to hold it.
The general thing is to hold a recurve with the high wrist and open hand, but there are recurves with locator grips that disagree. A Stewart takes a different grip from a Centaur, and the Hill throws the both of them for a loop (all longbows).
I find that when I go from my Centaur to my Stewart, it takes a few arrows for my hand to figure out what the bow wants, and my brain will manage that in the background.
My K-Mag... now that feel is in my bones!
Killdeer :thumbsup:
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Oh, and you get extra points for going to a longbow from a compound. Big difference in grip. It is much easier to transition to a recurve.
Don't get me wrong, it is not like winning the war on terrorism, you can do it almost without thinking. Do your bale practice and some fun targets to break it up, you will take to it like a kid to candy.
Killdeer :notworthy:
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I don't grip any bow tight. A tight grip can cause problems with any bow. I don't shoot wheels anymore but I shoot both recurves and longbows.
I hold my recurve with a straight wrist and light grip like a compound. The force of the bow is supported in the web of my thumb and first finger. I actually only wrap my first finger around the grip to keep the bow from jumping foreward on release.
I shoot a longbow, with a longbow style grip, with the heel of my bowhand down and resting against the handle. My fingers are wrapped around the handle but in a relaxed and very light grip. I don't grab it like it's going to jump out of my hands.
There are a few good books I might suggest. The first is "Instinctive Shooting II" by G. Fred Asbell. The other is "Become The Arrow" by Byron Ferguson. Both of these books are full of excellent advice and can save you a whole lot of time and frustration. Both authers seem to end up at the same place they just take different roads to get there.
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Poor spelling, it should have been "authors" not "authers". It's getting late and I should be in bed.
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I have to shoot all bows with a relaxed grip. I shoot best with no real tension in my hands, but good tension between my shoulder blades. If my grip is not relaxed I will torque the bow.
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I don't use the death grip. I use a semi-relaxed grip.
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I have a pretty relaxed grip. I'm finding a larger grip is comfy to hold without squeezing. :thumbsup:
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I like a relaxed grip on both longbows and recurves.
Kinda like your holding a small delicate bird. Just loose enough to not hurt it.But tight enough to keep it from getting out of your hand.
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Originally posted by Steelhead:
I like a relaxed grip on both longbows and recurves.
Kinda like your holding a small delicate bird. Just loose enough to not hurt it.But tight enough to keep it from getting out of your hand.
Perfect way to describe it!!!! :cool:
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I heard it on Trad-Gang. Hold your longbow like you were choking a snake. Seems like two different schools of thought.
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i grip it and ripp it
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Tom Parsons told me to stop holding my bow like a girl (no offense ladies). I hold my longbows much firmer than a recurve. I went from a compound to a recurve first and then to a longbow. The first week, the longbow beat the snot out of me until I figured it out. Firm, but not tight.
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Each bow is different. Just figure out how your bow NEEDS to be held.
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I use a very firm grip on both. I pull the bow into the web of my thumb them close my fingers around with a firm grip. Your bow hand controls where your shot goes so I want to have complete control of the bow from draw to follow through. If you torque your bow its usually bad form or your hand just doesnt fit the grip on that bow.
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I grip my predator recurve with just my top finger wrapped around and touching the end of my thumb. My other 3 fingers are curled into my palm- and my hand is slanted out. Just like shooting my old compound- to my bow, less pressure is better.
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if i grip by longbow too tight, then i feel handshock. if i do it right, there is none. im guessing all the force should be traveling through your hand down the bones in your fore arm, where it then is supported by should/arm muscle, and back/chest muscle.
the hand is really just gripping the bow enough to not drop it, or torque it in any way. so to sum it up, im not sure! haha
only been shooting a little while, but i sure know when i grip it wrong, or shoot wrong. most of the weight is resting on the base of my thumb joint, or the heel of the hand.
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Relaxed grip on all my bows. My fingers barely close around the grip so my mind will know I have it securely.
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Find what works for you, with arrows flying properly. Repeat it.
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Originally posted by Killdeer:
Your bow will teach you how to hold it. :thumbsup:
.......and that folks is an absolute FACT !!!
I shoot a wide variety of both longbows and recurves. What Killie said is right on the money.
The correct way to hold "any" bow is the way it tells you it wants to be held. When it tells you, you'll remember.
Winterhawk1960
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I keep my recurves like I keep my woman.
My grip is light enough to feel unrestricted but with just enough tention to let her know that no matter what I will not let her fall.
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Thanks for all the info everyone! I can barely wait for the bow to arrive in order to start figurin' all this out! I iimagine I'll start out with a relaxed grip similar to what I did with the wheelie. We'll see where it goes from there!
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I don't undertsand why you would need or want to grip it tight.Grip it tight and you will get every bit of handshock that bow has to offer.
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Originally posted by gobblegrunter:
Thanks for all the info everyone! I can barely wait for the bow to arrive in order to start figurin' all this out! I iimagine I'll start out with a relaxed grip similar to what I did with the wheelie. We'll see where it goes from there!
Depending on how relaxed your grip is with a compound, you may want to use a sling of some sort till you get the feel of your bow & how she likes to be touched.
I keep a few finger slings handy for just that occasion, or a home made wrist sling would do the trick too.
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A hold that works fine in the summer on your back lawn won't necessarily work fine when you're peeking around a tree at a deer, at a steep downward angle, in cold/wet weather, for your only good shot of the season, lol. I agree the bow itself usually let's you know how to hold it...but while I've shot bows that hated a 'gentle' hold I've never met one that couldn't be shot under varying conditions with a firmer hold. It's your bow, pick your poison. :archer2:
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Firm.
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I have found that different bows require different grip preassures. My longbow likes a lighter grip than my recurve.
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I hold a relaxed grip on my longbows and recurves. That is, fingers wrapped around, but not tight. With this type of grip, good form and follow through........ works best for me.
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Hold it like you would hold a little bird....no wait, that is Ben Hogan's advice for a golf club.
I hold a recurve with the thumb and forefinger lightly gripping and just lay the middle finger on the back of the bow for stability.
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Originally posted by Steelhead:
Kinda like your holding a small delicate bird. Just loose enough to not hurt it.But tight enough to keep it from getting out of your hand.
Yep....that was HH's quote.....
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According to John Schulz who was taught to shoot by Howard Hill himself, "Howard used to say 'Get ahold of it, heel the bow, exert a little pressure...' (excerpt from "Hitting'em Like Howard Hill"). That doesn't sound much like holding a small delicate bird to me, but if that works for you then fine and dandy. Then again, he shot a straight-limbed and straight-grip bow. Not everyone does.
Alot depends on the type of bow you shoot and your style and physical build. There is no universal one-way-fits-all when it comes to gripping the bow. Try a few ways and see what produces for you.
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For me its just a question of which bow I'm shooting. The 65# Jerry Hill Wildcat requires a light, kinda delicate hold. The handshock on it is painful if I really grip it. But using a choke hold on my 55# Martin Savannah gets me better groups and still no handshock.... Phil
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The bow is like a bird. Grip it too tightly it suffocates, too loosely it flies away.
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Originally posted by Stumpkiller:
The bow is like a bird. Grip it too tightly it suffocates, too loosely it flies away.
Though I believe the original quote was regarding a sword. ;-)
I keep a relatively loose grip. (High wrist target style). Never did get used to the "suitcase grip" of a longbow that forces the wrist lower.
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Originally posted by Killdeer:
Your bow will teach you how to hold it.
Killdeer :thumbsup:
I agree. My recurves and compound like a relaxed grip. But with one of my longbows, I need to hold it like I'm choking a rattle snake. The other likes the soft but firm hold.
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I agree that every bow is differant and you may need to experiment. that said I lean towards the lightest grip I can take.
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Killdeer nailed it. For me it relates to the cut of the grip. Anything that I shoot that has the typical re-curve grip, I hold with very little pressure and two finger on the back of the bow with just enough force to keep it from jumping out of my hand. My longbow on the other hand, I shoot with all finger on the back. The grip is still light and just enough pressure to maintain control with no muscle tension.
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Believe me I have tried gripping my recurve in all the ways there is, but I have found for me that a light to medium grip pressure helps me to keep steady.
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Consider this. A bow is most accurate with the least human interference. Any extra tension in either hand beyond the minimal requirement to hold the string and bow will influence your shot. Your wrist position must be bone-on-bone, or you will be using muscle tension, which is not as repeatable or consistent. The fingers are to keep the bow from jumping out of your hand in recoil if you don't use a sling.
I can't understand Howard Hill's advise to grip a longbow like you were picking up a suitcase, because the draw force is in the opposite direction.
Disclaimer: I shoot a recurve and generally use a wrist sling.
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NJWoodsman, I've give you your soft approach for your recurve and sling setup but have to ask whether you've ever tried a Hill-style longbow before. If not I'd pay a dollar to watch you shoot one with a 'least human interference' approach. I'll even supply the little lightweight arrow for ya'.
:scared: :laughing:
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Not even firm, but a light grip on both my longbows and recurve.
IMHO a firm grip imparts the opportunity to torque one the bow itself thus throwing your point of impact 0ff.
Similar to not anchoring and plucking the string will throw your arrows to the left (RH Shooter). A firm grip and may torque the bow and throw your arrows off as well. IMHO
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TSP, the OP did not state what kind of LB he was getting, for all we know it's a hybrid. Obviously a HH style bow would require a different grip- I don't find them comfortable, personally. I have found with longbows, flatbows, and semi-recurves that handshock was lessened with a looser grip. You can keep your dollar, thanks.
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That's true, NJ, he didn't say what kind of longbow he shoots. But he did ask if torque was an issue when gripping a bow and that again rekindled the popular notion that somehow a firm grip CAUSES bow torque ('I read it in a magazine so it must be true'). It's simply NOT true.
No offense intended, but the 'firm grip equals bow torque' idea has more basis on individual preference and perhaps lack of experience than it does on fact. Torque (bow twisting in the hand) is a result of generally poor form...which consists of many components. A firm grip with otherwise good form can actually HELP the shooter maintain better control, stability and consistency, especially with higher-mass limb/lower-mass riser types of bows like Hills. Of course personal preference/comfort level has something to do with what works for any given shooter, but whether the shooter develops a torque problem has less to do with their tolerance/comfort level/grip preference and more to do with their general form, practice regime, experience and simple physics.
I'd offer that a good approach for newbies in choosing their form components (grip or otherwise) is to take opinions with a grain of salt (even from 'experts'), sift them for whatever fits YOUR situation, keep an open mind, and learn from your own experiences. It's definately not one-size-fits-all.
:campfire:
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Had hand surgery recently and found I can't grip a flat bow. Went from longbow to recurve as it sits more in the web of my hand and I don't grip at all.
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everbody has there own opinion you do what works for you
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For me to get that equal tension all around the longbow grip and therefore reduced torque I need to hang on tight. Sqeezin the sap out of it as Asbell has said or he quoted from somebody, also reminds me to set my bow arm by tightening those appropriate muscles. To each his own and what works for your body.
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Well, looks like everyone agrees..........that their way is best! :readit:
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I believe one of the keys to shooting with a relaxed grip is to be able to keep a very strong,solid bowarm while maintaining the relaxed grip.Easier said than done while under the strain of the bow at full draw.Its easy to start choking the grip without even knowing your doing it.
I love to shoot both longbows and recurves.I like low to low/medium grips.Mostly locator style grips.Some of the grips have a slight palm swell.But not much.I find I am more consistant personally with lighter grip on both styles of bows.Thats what works for me with these grip styles and I dont like to change much about how I shoot a bow just because its longbow or recurve.Too complicated for my brain.Its hard enough as it is to be consistant without adding changing how you grip a bow by much.
With the relaxed grip or semi relaxed grip and a strong bowarm behind that and a good inline draw,solid and consistant anchor,good back tension,relaxed stretched out drawing hand with no cupping and dynamic release and follow through the arrows should go where thier pointed if spined right for the bow.
Thier are many things that cause the arrow to stray from the intended spot.One of things i look to when shooting poorly is if I am choking my grip too much.Thier are times when I find that I have been choking the grip without knowing it.I prompt myself to relax the grip and often the arrows start going where I aim and I know at that point that it was the harsh hand that was the culprit.
Ofcourse at other times it could be some other buggar thats getting in the way of a clean shot.
It would be great to put it all together more often
Ofcourse shoot what grip tension works for you.
No 2 baseball players swing exactly the same way.great hitters often accomplish the same task in slightly different ways.Some classic and some not so classic.But the proofs in the pudding.So do what works well for you.I have my style that works for me when I execute it and others have thier style.
I am sure some guys shoot good with a tighter grip and others shoot good with a looser grip.Some somewhere in between.
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Each bow is different for me. I will grip it firm and shoot lessening my grip until no hand shock. Still learning though
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From what I understand you should always be relaxed when you shoot. Whether we are talking about a compound or traditional bows. the traditional archers may have their fingers around their bow but I dont think any og them ar actually griping it for the same reason that compound shooters do that.