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Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: canshooter on December 22, 2008, 10:51:00 PM
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Bear with a new guy here if this has been discussed before. Ive gone outside to shoot a couple of evenings this week. I have about 11 yards up the side of my house but it is unlit and fairly dark. I dont get home from work in the winter until around 6:30 or 7, and by then it has been dark for 2 hours or more. My target bag is just a silhouette so I just aim for an imaginary point in the center and practice form and release. The cool thing is I am getting groups of 6, no worse than the size of an apple and many times about 2 inch in diameter. Even though I cannot see the arrows until I approach the target I can usually tell whether it will be good or not before looking.
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Well,
At least your form is consistent, but to me, and just my opinion, you need an actual point to visually see, to be aiming at and shooting.
In other words, it doesn't matter if I have a 2 inch group of 4 arrows, just above the squirrels head, when I'm hungry, and only have 4 arrows.. :bigsmyl:
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luke feel the force let the force be with you
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Try getting a laser pointer and cut up a hanger to make a holder and tape the laser pointer on. Put the dot in the center of the bag and aim at that. Just concentrate on the dot. You will be surprised how much it helps when you concentrate.
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Good advice from G. Owen.
One thing I've had to overcome is "shooting from memory" .... Let me explain.
It usually doesn't happen unless I'm 25 or 30 yards or farther... What was heppening was, I'd find a spot to shoot. Look at it , draw, anchor, settle, and shoot for the spot I saw, or "Remembered" and let the arrow go... Many times it would fly aloft, missing the mark.. I figured out when I stare at the spot and draw at the spot and anchor at the spot and settle at the spot and stare at the spot some more and the release happens at the spot... Mysteriously, the arrow hits the spot... Imagery is good, before the shot, but when it comes time to shoot something, look at it a let it happen.. You can not hit what you can't see...
Steve
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The laser pointer seems like a brilliant idea, although my original intention was just to practice form and release, grouping was really just a happy accident.
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I recently did a similar thing as an experiment. I set up a target that was illuminated enough to see the "spot", however, where I was standing was too dark to see my bow, arrow or any other reference that I might be using subconsciously to aim. I'm left eye dominant and I shoot right handed. If I consciously look at the bow or arrow it really messes me up because I see nothing that remotely appears to help in the aiming process. I was set up at 20 yards. The hypothesis being tested was to prove that I indeed use some point of reference at my end to align to the target and not just proprioceptive stimuli (the feel of my body - arms and hands holding the bow - in space).
What do you think the results demonstrated? Anyone want to guess before I tell you?
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I bet you are right, you do indeed use some sort of reference.. I've tried the same thing.
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My bet would be you shot better groups
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Wow! The first two guesses are different. I'll tell you tomorrow. Let's see what some others have to say.
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Just turn the flood lights on the target, your family can find thier way in the dark.My wife just got use to it. :biglaugh:
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My guess is you shot 2 seperate groups. Due to the fact that subconsciously you used a reference point in one, and the other not, just instinctive.
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canshooter, I read and reread your post. Sounds like to me everything is working just the way it is, imaginery point and all.
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I agree with Greg. If i understood what I read in your book,your spot on the target is all you need.Every thing else should be automatic from all your practice.----------Bone
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I got interested in "shooting in the dark" after a discussion with Darryl Quidort who co-produced Masters of the Barebow I & II. He talked about shooting in the dark in his basement on the video. He later told me that his groups spread out as it got darker even though the target was illuminated.
Here's what happened with my experiment. I shot three arrows and the group was about 8" larger than normal. So I shot another three and it tightened up a bit. I shot a few more groups and never could get a tight group as I do when it is light.
My first thought was that since I didn't have a reference point that I could see on my end, my accuracy had decreased. However, I noticed that my groups tended to spread out vertically rather than horizontally. This tells me that the loss of accuracy may be more of a depth perception problem that results from shooting in the dark, rather than a subconscious reference issue with the bow/arrow. I'm a big believer in visualizing the arrows flight. I couldn't do that since it was dark between me and the target. Other than retinal disparity, which may have been severely compromised in the darkness of the trials, we use object overlap and relative size to perceive depth. I had none of those cues available to me so my perception of depth would have been impaired to some degree.
So what's the conclusion? I don't think I know yet. I'll have to think through it some more and see if I can't come up with a different way to test this isolating and manipulating each variable.
One thing with the red laser. Your rods cannot perceive red light so you have completely taken them out of the equation as you fix on that red spot. You are solely relying on your cones to focus on the spot which does not replicate normal shooting situations. It might still be sufficient to get a hit, but it is a variable worth considering.
I guess this is To Be Continued . . .
Canshooter, I'd think this would indeed be a great way to work on your form. YOu should really be able to really tune in to it since you cannot focus on the target.
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Ive used a laser pointer on serveral occassions and my groups where better than daylight shooting..Has to be some kinda muscle memory or something without the visual cues of sight pics.
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I think this is more complicated than it first appears. I'm going to get a laser and try it out.
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I do this often. IMO it is similar to hunting situations. I rarely have the opportunity to pick a specific spot on an animal. When I am shooting in the dark and I hit the kill I am plenty satisfied. Sometimes I will prop a flashlight on a stone or something and will shoot for the light. I think it's good practice.
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I've shot in the dark with a lit candle in front of my back stop as a point of aim and my groups tightened up.
But that laser pointer has me thinking, being that my shots are under twenty yards maybe it would show up on the side of a deer! Na just thinking!
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Jay,
I'm waiting (with bated breath.LOL) for some more input on this.
Try using a flashlight with the lens covered with black electrical tape. Poke a small hole in the tape so a small spot of light shines on a blank bale.
Good luck,
Darryl
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I've been thinking about this nonstop since we talked about it.
I basically did what you recommended. The target was barely lit and I couldn't see my bow at all. Check out page one for my results. I'm going to have to do some more research on this one.
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the only thing i see wrong with shooting in the dark is if you have problems shooting in the day light cuse of whatever reason, when you shoot in the dark you get rid of said problems, now my question is how many people hunt in the pitch black and wht time of the year is laser dot season, this isnt a bash i just see it creating more problems than good am i wrong in my thinking
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Wow ive been shooting in the dark for years, I never realized that others did it, lol A few years back when it started to get dark I kept shooting and notice my groups tighten up. I started to shoot in the dark working on my form. then I started to put a flashlight out on the target and shoot, then went to a lazer light pointer. Ive been doing this for years, I shoot in the dark alot, It helped me work on my form, (I think) and make it so I dont look at a referance point when shooting. I never told anyone cause I would have thought me NUTS lol
Just make sure you bring in the cats and dogs my cats likes to jump in front of my target and chase the arrows.
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I shoot in the darkness of night with a dimly lit aiming point as a method to aid concentration and to reinforce motor memory. This technique sort of acts like a blinder, washing out nearly everything into darkness around my visible aiming point. Doing so out of doors on a 3D target or with a candle gives me just enough 3-dimensional feedback to range the target while giving me enough darkness to test and practice my balance, motion, and form as if my eyes were closed. I'll go through the entire shot process to include drawing a broadhead tipped hunting arrow from my backquiver and nocking it onto my bow string in one smooth motion without taking my focus off of the aiming point. I find that doing so greatly improves my hand and eye coordination as well as my balance. Using a laser point on a wall in complete darkness will create a 2-dimensional shooting environment which may eliminate your ability to range the target. I'd be concerned this may cause more motor memory harm than any good you may see.
I feel such regular practice aids my ability to concentrate on a small aiming point while managing myself and my bow with minimal conscious reference outside of the intended point of impact. I'll usually spot those who do not practice this technique when we shoot candles for sport at camp. As soon as they begin to lose visible reference outside of the aiming point from the darkness, their form and balance goes out the window along w/ their accuracy. I've seen some very coordinated people turn into all thumbs with two left feet as soon as they lose visible reference points beyond that of the target. I guess it is along the lines of learning to field strip your weapon while blindfolded which improves your ability to do so when you can see.
later,
Daddy Bear
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I just read Kidwell's post on page one:
"I'm a big believer in visualizing the arrows flight. I couldn't do that since it was dark between me and the target."
I use a white nock and high back feathers to aid my ability to observe arrow impact on game. Though I hunt with heavy arrows from a straight end longbow where my arrow travels at fairly normal speeds, at times it is very difficult to pick out my arrow at all when shooting on game in low light. I find that the practice I described above when added to regular daylight practice, aids my ability to call my shot much like a rifleman calls his shot from a centerfire rifle with a good amount of accuracy. I make it a habit of calling my shot when practicing in darkness even if my shots are only left, right, high, or low within the vitals and/ or bull.
This single aspect alone would be difficult to practice and develop as a skill without such low light practice.
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Maybe J-KID has a good point about useing a lazer light, you rods dont pick-up the red light. Maybe im better off just useing a flashlight. I was also thinking of maybe useing those UV stickers, like the ones they sell for kids to hang in there room. Set up a Black light so the sticker would glow and shoot at that maybe this would work. Ill have to give it a try.
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What about those glow in the dark things they sell. The ones your kids put in the freezer so they last. Stick it straight in to your back stop so only the end glowing end is showing.