Post by: habs on April 08, 2008, 04:28:00 PM
Post by: deermaster1 on April 08, 2008, 05:46:00 PM
Post by: Diamond Paul on April 08, 2008, 07:26:00 PM
Post by: BLACK WOLF on April 08, 2008, 09:55:00 PM
I personally think it's stupid to disqualify it in tournaments. It's barebow...so what if an archer has learned to use the arrow almost exactly like a sight.
It has it's pros and cons just like any aiming techinique.
We all have the option of picking our own aiming techinique for a particular goals. No one is forced to choose one way or the other.
If an archer wants to make aiming easier...face walking, string walking and point of aim may just be your ticket.
Ray ;)
Post by: habs on April 09, 2008, 12:10:00 AM
This had to have been discussed around the campfire or at the tavern.
Post by: NDTerminator on April 09, 2008, 09:15:00 AM
Post by: Chris Wilson on April 09, 2008, 10:53:00 AM
Post by: Mushroom on April 09, 2008, 11:02:00 PM
Post by: Chris Wilson on April 10, 2008, 12:01:00 PM
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I wonder how we in North America decided that this is bad and should not be allowed in Competitive Shooting?Just a guess but someone, some where, at some point in time probably got tired of getting their rear end beat, on a regular basis, and deemed string walking and face walking evil and untraditional, comparing it to using a sight on a compound. A decent portion of the traditional community seems to have issues with forms of shooting that encompass any conscious form of aiming. I've even taken flack in the past for using gap and point of aim methods of shooting. If it isn't "instinctive", it's not traditonal. I've had folks tell me that to my face during a shoot. I typically just smile and wish them a good day.
Post by: Diamond Paul on April 10, 2008, 01:34:00 PM
Post by: R H Clark on April 10, 2008, 04:05:00 PM
Post by: BLACK WOLF on April 12, 2008, 11:05:00 AM
Sad but true that some people actually believe that. For some reason, some people think it's an unfair advantage in competition.
As far as I'm concerned...anyone can learn it if they want to...nothing unfair about that.
Ray ;)
Post by: R H Clark on April 12, 2008, 02:13:00 PM
I feel the same way.Whenever I see someone who is a great shot,I'll try to learn everything I can from them.Some of it might work for me,some not,but at least I'm willing to give it a try.
Post by: TSP on April 13, 2008, 02:16:00 PM
String and face walking are basically just ways to use a sight without screwing one to your bow. If as a no-sight shooter you don't mind shooting in competitions against sight shooters then the two 'walking' disciplines probably won't bother you much. But if its a real 'competition' then it doesn't seem either logical or fair to do that. Its not JUST the man behind the bow (a popular yet illogical saying)...otherwise there wouldn't be any equipment-based classes. And when's the last time you saw a competitive shoot with only one equipment class?
I'd rather compete on an apples-to-apples basis...instinctive vs. instinctive; sighted vs. sighted; straightlimbed bows with wood arrows vs. the same/similar; high performance bows with lightweight carbons vs. the same/similar; etc. etc. When it comes to competitions it simply makes sense to group gear and styles into their own respective classes. If those that argue against such simple logic do so based on the theory that 'the equipment doesn't really matter', don't be upset if at your next 3-D shoot you get thoroughly outpointed by a beginner on his first time out with his new decked-out compound. All's fair in love, equipment and shooting styles, right?
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
Post by: George D. Stout on April 13, 2008, 04:19:00 PM
And you wonder why attendance is not what it used to be in competitive shoots. We used to call them sandbaggers or even cheaters who would do whatever it took to stretch the rules to suit themselves.
You don't have to exclude it, but call it what it is....using a sighting device. And no....not everyone uses the arrow for a sighting device.
The ones that are all for it and think it's just barebow, are the ones who are looking for the win and not the journey to the win. Stringwalking or facewalking is as much like barebow as 4x12 scope against a rifle with no sights at all. Oh yeah....the can use the barrel for a pin 8^).
Those who were around for the advancement of field archery in the 50's and 60's already know why there is a separation.
Post by: R H Clark on April 13, 2008, 05:25:00 PM
I may change my mind when I have gained your years of perspective.I really mean that with the most respect.
Right now,I don't know about streatching the rules.You either play by them or not.
I'm out to win.I'm going to use everything I can to my advantage without breaking the rules.
If someone else is out for journey,why should they complain about anything that is within the rules if winning is not their goal.
I understand why face and string walking is illegal.I guess your post spoke more to me about an attitude I see among trad archers more than just the facewalking issue.
Every sport in the world that is played,people play to win.They use every advantage within the rules.They use every advancement in equipment available.I see an attitude in trad archery that would be akin to a guy complaining because he didn't do well at the US Open, when he was using a set of 100 year old clubs.
If he wants to play golf with the 100 year old clubs that is great.I just don't think he should complain about losing or try to make everyone else play with 100 year old clubs.
Post by: Chris Wilson on April 13, 2008, 08:13:00 PM
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We used to call them sandbaggers or even cheaters who would do whatever it took to stretch the rules to suit themselves.Well, that proves my guess in my earlier post was
correct.
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You don't have to exclude it, but call it what it is....using a sighting device. And no....not everyone uses the arrow for a sighting device. The ones that are all for it and think it's just barebow, are the ones who are looking for the win and not the journey to the win.:rolleyes: Oh please, just because someone's not going down the same path you are doesn't mean they're on any less of a journey than you.
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Stringwalking or facewalking is as much like barebow as 4x12 scope against a rifle with no sights at all.Not a very good comparison, George. It's more like giving two shooters the same scoped rifle and one shooter choosing to ignore the scope and shoot by feel instead. They both have the same physical equipment, but one chooses to use it differently.
Post by: George D. Stout on April 13, 2008, 09:49:00 PM
Do you suggest that the playing field is level with you shooting against a newcomer to the sport, who does not use the systems that you do? Or that they should be able to hit just as well as you do without the arrow point reference?
Frankly, it does make a big difference whether one string walks/face walks/ gaps or whatever. If it didn't make it easier, few would go to the trouble of doing it. It actually takes a lot of time to perfect. If it wasn't an issue, it would be allowed in shoots as well. I suppose they are boneheads because they don't see it your way? Maybe?
What I do see now is the reason I got away from it in the early 1980's.....the winning got in the way of the shooting. And yes, I competed against string walkers and did very well....but the good ones always beat the ones that didn't string walk. Yeah, that was our bad because we didn't want to conform to using a sight. Go figure.
Post by: Mushroom on April 13, 2008, 11:57:00 PM
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Do you suggest that the playing field is level with you shooting against a newcomer to the sport, who does not use the systems that you do? Or that they should be able to hit just as well as you do without the arrow point reference?Now I'm new to Trad archery and instinctive shooting. This does not place me on a level playing field as more experienced instinctive shooters. Only experience and learning from those who shoot better than me will even the playing field. If string walking were legal then more people would be apt to learn.
Saying this I also believe a person should try to learn more than just one method of aiming.
Post by: Chris Wilson on April 14, 2008, 12:20:00 AM
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Chris.... Firsts of all, it's not about me...I did my competitive shooting before your were born...I think *^).Maybe, George. I'm getting up there but I've still got a ways to go . ;)
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Do you suggest that the playing field is level with you shooting against a newcomer to the sport, who does not use the systems that you do? Or that they should be able to hit just as well as you do without the arrow point reference?I expect any individual who chooses to compete at a certain level to choose the shooting style that they feel allows them to do their best and be competetive; as long as it falls within the rules of the competition. If an individual chooses to shooting "instinctively" in a competition that allows other shooting styles, that's their choice but I don't want hear any complaints. Just like I don't want to hear any complaints from someone who gets disqualified for face walking in a competition when they know it's not allowed.
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Frankly, it does make a big difference whether one string walks/face walks/ gaps or whatever. If it didn't make it easier, few would go to the trouble of doing it. It actually takes a lot of time to perfect. If it wasn't an issue, it would be allowed in shoots as well. I suppose they are boneheads because they don't see it your way? Maybe?Of course anyone that doesn't see it my way is a bonehead :biglaugh: . Anyway, it does take a lot of time to perfect any aiming method; instinctive included, and just because someone uses a concious form of aiming doesn't mean they're going to automatically become a world class shooter. It's a good base to build on, but you've still got to put in the time and work to make it all come together. Even then, it's not for everyone.
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What I do see now is the reason I got away from it in the early 1980's.....the winning got in the way of the shooting.If one doesn't go into a competition with the desire to win, then why even compete? You make it seem like the drive to win is such an evil thing or maybe I'm just reading it wrong. Now, I've seen and heard of folks doing some down right nasty things in their quest to win, but as long as an individual plays within the rules of a competition, why is it such a bad thing to want to win?
Post by: Tom A on April 14, 2008, 01:52:00 PM
Post by: BLACK WOLF on April 14, 2008, 06:25:00 PM
Ray ;)
Post by: ChuckC on April 15, 2008, 11:29:00 PM
There is nothing wrong with face walking or string walking. Nothing. Except it is against the rules in that game.
It is not the same as instinctive. There is no reason to "walk" if you are shooting instinctive. It is a method that is used with point on (sorry, not gap.. edited) shooting, using the arrow point as the front sight. period
The problem with the game, as many see it.. me too, is that every time you add a sight, or gizmo, you can... can... improve accuracy. Is it fair for me to compete against someone who is obviously shooting using a sighting method ? I think not.
That's why the rules (for some games) say no. Course, you always have those guys that need to win so badly that they have to cheat and not follow rules.
Again... it isn't bad or wrong. But it is different and should be compared against like styles.
Chris.. George is right on... it is two different games. not two scoped rifles. one scoped and one with iron sights is more analogous. In fact, using instinctive shooting, you don't even use sights.
ChuckC
Post by: Chris Wilson on April 16, 2008, 07:35:00 AM
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Chris.. George is right on... it is two different games. not two scoped rifles. one scoped and one with iron sights is more analogous. In fact, using instinctive shooting, you don't even use sights.We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. The instinctive shooter chooses to ignore the arrow point that is in front of their face. The string walker, face walker and gap shooter chooses to conciously include it in the sight picture. The difference between an individual who shoots a concious aiming method and someone who shoots "instinctive" isn't the equipment, it's how they use that equipment.
Post by: zinndl on April 16, 2008, 07:58:00 AM
Post by: JC on April 16, 2008, 08:24:00 AM
I don't have a problem with string walking etc. if the rules allow it. If they don't, well guess you are just shooting for fun. As George and others have said, that's why there are different classes, to level the playing field as much as possible. Face walking etc. has proven that it needs a seperate class...not necessarily "bad", just needing speration from other aiming methods. Most of the shoots I attend have simply decided to draw the line below face walking. The reason, to me, is irrelevant. Want to face walk for score? Simply shoot in competitions that allow it.
On the other side of the coin, I went through much of the head scratching the face walking proponents here have done when I competed in shoots that at one time did not allow carbon arrows. I either shot aluminum for score or shot my carbons for my own private score. I also petitioned the tournament directors to change the rules, every chance I got. Enough folks must have done the same thing because that is a rule I rarely encounter anymore. I didn't argue the reasons, which I thought silly, I simply worked to change them.
Post by: Kingstaken on April 16, 2008, 10:04:00 AM
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Originally posted by Mushroom:Two reasons as I see it.
A friend of mine went to 3D Worlds last year and he said that string walking was used by pretty much everyone in Europe. I wonder how we in North America decided that this is bad and should not be allowed in Competitive Shooting?
1- As American we don't have archery heroes from Europe. We are sort of isolated from the rest of the world and many aspects. We frown upon most anything because we as proud Americans feel we are the best.
2- Mostly tho to me it is the whole "Ishi" syndrome.
Without the likes of Hill and Pope and Young who put Ishi on a pedestal to name a few, traditional archery would not be as popular as it is today in it's present form. The Indian way of shooting so we've been told thru them is the way to shoot. Sort of a guilt trip as I see it from taking the land from the Indians.
Post by: TSP on May 20, 2008, 06:39:00 PM
Post by: ZaneD on May 20, 2008, 07:53:00 PM
Zane
Post by: stmpthmpr on May 21, 2008, 03:37:00 AM
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Originally posted by Kingstaken:Since you went from "as I see it" to "we", I'll comment.
Two reasons as I see it.
1- As American we don't have archery heroes from Europe. We are sort of isolated from the rest of the world and many aspects. We frown upon most anything because we as proud Americans feel we are the best.
*I* have archery heroes from all over the world. Men who have taken a stick and string afield, lived off the land, and protected their families and communities. *I* dont "frown upon most anything" because *I* choose to look at and for all the good and beautiful things this country and planet have to offer as I can. Traditional archery is one of those things. Yes I am a proud American(end of sentence!). I am what I am and this country is what it is!
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2- Mostly tho to me it is the whole "Ishi" syndrome.The pioneers of American archery you speak of would blunt you in the butt if they read what you just wrote. I happen to share their appreciation for what they learned from Ishi, and the historical use of the bow and arrow by the American Indians. I didnt take their land and neither did my people. But I tell you what, I do enjoy a great many freedoms in this country and if I would ever feel any real guilt, it would be upon looking into the eyes of Ishi.
Without the likes of Hill and Pope and Young who put Ishi on a pedestal to name a few, traditional archery would not be as popular as it is today in it's present form. The Indian way of shooting so we've been told thru them is the way to shoot. Sort of a guilt trip as I see it from taking the land from the Indians.