Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: McDave on February 20, 2008, 12:42:00 PM
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Responding to another post made me think of this, which is probably the biggest problem I have with being a good archer. My shooting will improve and I will shoot good groups, then, for no reason I can figure out, it will go to pot, and I'll be shooting all over the target. Thank goodness I was going through one of my good phases when I shot the buck in my avatar.
When I go through a bad phase, like I currently am, I seem to just have to live through it, like it was a migraine headache.
I had the same problem when I used to play golf. A golf pro could usually spot something I was doing wrong and get me on the right track, until my mind came up with a new way to fool me. Unfortunately, I don't happen to have an archery pro handy.
Do any of you have the same problem, and do you have a better way of figuring it out other than just shooting a lot of arrows until something starts working right again?
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I find that shooting less arrows helps more than more arrows. Kinda like a reboot of the brain. Sometimes it takes a day and other times more than a week and there are times when I don't even shoot for a week or two. Usually somewhere in there the problem corrects itself which is I feel like more a mental thing like my head isn't into to shooting and thinking about too much other stuff.
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You know what they say, shooting traditional is 99% mental the other 1% is your brain.
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Last night I went to a basketball game and one of our top shooters first put up a 3 point airball got upset stole the ball back then missed an easy lay up then stole the ball again and missed another shot under the basket, set down for awhile and thought about it. came out and played better, same goes with shooting, I don,t know your style but I shoot instintive and sometimes this feeling of doubt just hits you and I go all to heck. got to stop go back through the basics all again, anchor, bowhand, release etc and just bare down, you,ll get over this.
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I got through those slumps more often than I care to. I always try to go back to the basics. Also try to stop shooting on a good note. In other words when ive been shooting good and I feel myself getting tired I will quit. I think it helps me with my conficence. m2c
Gilbert
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I agree with Mr. Madness. I have done the same thing. Start shooting bad, get mad and kick rocks all the way back to the house. Keep shooting and get even worse. I have found that if I don't shoot for a couple of days after a bad session I will pick up my bow and go out and bang all my arrows together. Let it rest and then go out and just shoot. Let your muscle memory take over and let em fly. Works for me. Good luck and keep at it.
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Best way to diagnose your shot is to use video of you shooting. Unless you have friends or a coach, I would suggest you use a cam or camera with video. I shoot instinctive, I notice the arrow out there in front and sometimes I put too much focus on it and not the target. That causes erratic shooting. But, 9 out of 10 times it will more likely be your alignment. Your bow arm and draw arm is not lining the arrow up with the target. Sometimes it is a tense string hand "cupping" the string. If more than a couple arrows goes haywire during a session, stop and check your alignment. Shoot only 1 to 3 arrows in a row. Take a 2 minute break, shoot again.
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Mc Dave, I do the very same thing your talking about and 9 out of 10 times, when I start slingin' arrows all over the place it's because I'm moving my bow arm. Very rarely can I remedy this in one session of shooting. I've worked thru it but like Blues said above the only real success I've had is to lay the bow down for a day or two and then come back to it. Generally it will fix its self. I don't know why but it works. DAVE
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The # 1 reason I see for a guy whos been shooting welland has the basics down, to suddenly lose "it" is lack of, or loss of, back tension at release.
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Thanks for all your suggestions, and it's some comfort to know that I'm not the only one who has this problem. I think I'll have to get a video, because I see things when other people make videos, and maybe I'll see something if I make one of my own.
Rod, I'm not as aware as I would like to be whether I have good back tension or not. Is there anything you can point to that would let you know you have good back tension?
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One of the best thing I have done is put a swing to the side of my range. When my shots start missing I lean the bow up and go set and pet my lab then I remind myself I can make the shot I just have to do it. It may take 5 minutes or a hour then I will start shooting again. If they start missing again I put the bow up for the day.
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McDave...a simple test would be to grasp one of your arrows with both hands...raise above your nose, then try and pull the arrow apart....thats back tension! Keeping back tension until the arrow clears the bow, is the tricky part...blind bale work is the simpliest way to groove maintaing back tension through release for most folks, as well as installing(if you dont already) a conclusion to your shot, where the subconsious mantains back tension, until your reach the part of your shot that says...OK I can stop now i.e CONCLUSION.....what conclusion you use makes no difference..as long as it takes longer to do, than the arrow takes to clear the bow.
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Thanks, Rod. I've tried relentlessly to explain back tension to new shooters and that does it perfect. I guess that's why your the best. Thanks again. DAVE
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I'm the same way. I shot today and I had 50% good groups and 50% that were awful. I'm more discouraged about my shooting than I've ever been.
I need to try the blind bale work....wish I knew what he meant.
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Jeff,
You might have the same problem I do. I don't have good feedback from my body when it starts doing something wrong (boy, that could be freudian, couldn't it? but we'll stick to archery ;-)). My current slump was because I had dropped my back tension a little bit.
The blind bale work probably came about because other archers also have some trouble self-identifying problems with their form. Shooting into a big target from a few feet away means that none of your mental focus is directed on hitting the target, and 100% of your mental focus is directed on your form. I know that even Olympic archers do this on a regular basis.
When I attended the instinctive shooting clinic put on my Fred Asbell and Ken Beck, all we did during the day was alternate short periods of shooting into a bale a few feet in front of us with other periods where Fred or Ken would discuss an element of form. So you had one item to focus on during the shooting sessions. It got to be pretty boring shooting into the bales all day, but they had other bales out in the field we could have fun shooting at when class was not in session. But boring or not, it was an effective way to learn the fundamentals of good form.
As I said, though, having learned the fundamentals once doesn't mean you're going to keep them forever.
I'm not sure what good it would do to shoot into the blind bale if you've never learned good form to start with. I spent several years before the class reading everything I could get my hands on about archery form, and my self-teaching got me about 95% of the way there. Fred and Ken pointed out a couple of things to me that I was unaware of that improved my form. Everybody in the class seemed to be in about the same boat. It gave me some added confidence knowing two really qualified people had looked at my shooting and found that it was basically pretty good, with a couple of minor adjustments.
It might be a good idea, if you don't have someone handy to check your form, to make a video and post it on this forum. But if you already have been taught good form, sometimes all it takes it a nudge in the right direction, like Rod gave me above.
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I posted a video once before, but got very limited feedback.
I'm going to try the blind bale and work on my form as much as possible.
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Originally posted by roknjs:
I posted a video once before, but got very limited feedback.
I'm going to try the blind bale and work on my form as much as possible.
OK good plan, now which part of your form are you going to work on first?
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What do you suggest? I was planning on working on back tension first.
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Another thing to keep in mind is the amount of "push" which is put in the bow arm towards the target. Too little causes me to shoot right, too much causes me to shoot left, just enough puts it right in there.
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It helps to know the feel of every part of your shot. Accurate archers know what a good shot feels like. They know when their bow arm is right, exactly where their anchor is located and what all the other parts of their shot should feel like. It's sort of a checklist that is run each shot. Most get this down to the subconscious level and only notice when something is wrong. However, to you can only learn it on the conscious level.
If you are running hot and cold, it's probably because you haven't learned the steps of your shot and exactly what they are supposed to feel like.
As Rod asked, what's first? Once you get that, what's next?
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I'd suggest starting at the beginning and work on bow hand position and stay after it untill, you know without a doubt...this is my best bowhand position, by focusing on the bows reaction at release.....the bow jumping straight toward the target is what your looking for. Ans, yes, other form issues will effect how the bow reacts, but once you find YOUR best position, the other form issues , you work out later in the blind bale process, will only improve, the perfect bowhand position you have found.
You only touch the bow in two places..the bowhand and the fingers on the string and in the words of famous coach Len Cardinale...it pays to have both those perfect!
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I got a chance to shoot a little tonight. I started with concentrating on my grip and how the bow settles into that hand when I draw. I worked a little on back tension.
I made a discovery. I don't think I release too soon, but I was drawing too fast. Mys best shooting came when I slowed my draw while letting the bow settle in my hand the same way and keeping back tension through the draw and release.
Most of my inconsistencies tonight came from fletching issues. I need to strip some fletching on some arrows and refletch. I noticed my 60x120 4-fletch arrows fly better than my 75x105 4 fletch and both fly better than my 3 fletch.
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Originally posted by roknjs:
Most of my inconsistencies tonight came from fletching issues. I need to strip some fletching on some arrows and refletch. I noticed my 60x120 4-fletch arrows fly better than my 75x105 4 fletch and both fly better than my 3 fletch.
I hope you won't be offended at what I'm going to post about this.
But, while you are working on your form consistency, if you notice how your arrows are flying or where they hit, you are not paying enough attention to your form.
I know this first hand because this is exactly how I WASTED a lot of time in archery. I'm sure Dr Kidd would be able to explain it better. On one hand I am determined to get better and spend a lot of time shooting. On the other hand I let little things get in the way of improving; tuning, tweeking, new string, re-fletching, new arrows, etc. I have a better selection of tools and equipment than most pro shops so that I can distract myself from the things that I need practice to get better. It's all fun, but playing with and adjusting the equipment won't make me, or you shoot better.
To shoot consistently, we need a bow that you can handle and matched arrows. The arrows don't need to be perfectly matched to the bow, just matched to each other. Then we need to put away all the tools and focus our practice on the various parts of our form, one at a time. (This also comes from Len Cardinale. That man KNOWS what it takes to be a good archer.)
This post is written as much to myself as to you. Hopefully at least one of us will benefit. :)
Allen
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Rod,
the comments on bow hand position and making sure your shot concludes after the arrow leaves the bow are great. I am going to work on both tonight as I am sure this will help me improve.
Have you considered a "form tune up post" to provide a step by step process to help people find thier "best" form. I know I could use a coach.
Allen, great advice also.
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AllenR,
I agree in principle. However, when you look downrange after shooting 4 or 5 arrows downrange and you see 2 that are always way off from the other arrows, you get a little curious as to why.
Once I had spent quite a bit of time working on hand position and back tension, I decided to shoot a few groups at 20 yrds. My Gold Tips are matched to each other and some just didn't fly the same. I have some 3-fletch and some 4-fletch. I noticed the 60x120 4-fletch was working for me, but the 3-fletch wasn't. I stripped the fletching off those and lo and behold, they were flying fine.
So, to sum it up, I wasn't focusing on where my arrrows were hitting or how they were flying while I was working on form. I even shot some with my eyes closed.
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Originally posted by roknjs:
Once I had spent quite a bit of time working on hand position and back tension, I decided to shoot a few groups at 20 yrds.
I'm nowhere near as good a shooter as Rod, Terry or many of the others here, but I have worked with some great coaches and I'm getting better fast. I know what it takes to learn consistency and what you described ain't it.
Learning a new bit of form requires that you drill yourself on developing it without interuption. Consistency is essentially new habits. It takes many repititions to develop the new habits. Interuptions such as going back to see if you are making progress slows this down significangly.
A while back, Scott Williams posted that you need 34 focused repetitions each session and dozens of sessions (I forget how many sessions he mentioned)to develop a new habit. If you go back to see how you are progressing, you just wasted the time that you spent working on your form (new habit).
Habits are hard to change. Just ask any smoker who tried to quit. Archery habits are no easier to change. In my case, I've mostly been unsuccessful but I do know what it takes.
If you want to be consistent at a high level, you have to focus on only one thing at a time and don't break training.
Shooting a bow requires us to do several different things at one time. Our brains are built to be able to consciously focus on only one thing at a time. This means that all but one thing has to be trained to the point of subconscious execution. There are two schools of thought on this. Some say to focus on form and aim subconsciously, others are say the opposite. Both are successful, but you do have to pick one or the other. And you have to develop subconsciously run habits to allow the other parts to run consistently.
You can practice any way you want to. It's totally up to you. But, if you do what you've always done, you'll get the results you've always gotten. To take advantage of the great advice from Rod & others, you have to discipline your practice.
I hope that you aren't taking offense at this post. You asked why you aren't consistent, this is why.
Good luck,
Allen
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Allen,
I think the difference between you and Jeff is that you "have worked with some great coaches" and he hasn't. I don't know if I would feel comfortable drilling for dozens of sessions on something I made up myself or was trying to copy out of a book. I might just be reinforcing bad form. I can understand why he might drill for a while and then go back and shoot some from a longer distance, because otherwise how can he know he is doing himself any good? I don't think it is impossible to self-teach, as I taught myself for many years before I had any professional instruction, and when I did, they just tweaked a couple of things I hadn't noticed. But I don't know if I would have EVER noticed those things on my own. And, I never have been sure I've had very good back tension because I've never had anyone standing over me telling me that now you're shooting with good back tension and now you're not.
What would your advice be about drilling for someone like Jeff, who hasn't had any professional instruction, and may not have any sources of that readily available? (At least I assume he hasn't from his posts; my apologies otherwise). Or for someone like me, for that matter, who may have had some professional instruction several years ago, but for all we know we may have picked up some new bad habits along the way?
I guess my thought would be to mainly shoot the bow, and NOT do much in the way of drills unless you have someone who knows what they are doing who can set you on the right path.
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McDave,
That's a very good point!! I've been there myself and have the TP T-shirt to prove it. :)
Some of the best information available is directed at compound shooters. Bernie Pelerite's Idiot Proof Archery. The reason that it is so good (apart from Bernie's style) is that most of it comes straight from Len Cardinale. If you can ignore Bernie's style and focus on the information, there is a lot of good stuff in there. The chapter on anticipation is as good as anything I've ever read on the subject. His description of the bridge is straight from Cardinale and is an essential part of blank bale work.
Another good source is from Olympic Recurve coach Larry Skinner. His video is excellent at showing what good alignment is, as is Terry Green's segment on the Trad Gang video.
After you see what good form looks like, video tape yourself. It's very easy to see the big differences. You can also post it here and you will get a lot of good feedback. Some of it is not helpful, but it doesn't take long to figure out who knows good form and can be helpful.
Good form is little more than consistency. It is the ability to exactly repeat your shot time after time. It is not a particular stance or style. That is something that each archer has to work out for themselves.
Many great archers and coaches have worked out a style and some fundamentals that work for most people. They don't work for everyone. It is usually best to start with the generally accepted form and to learn the fundamentals of a good shot. But each archer has to adapt this generally accepted model to their own situation.
That being said, any time with a good coach will save years of effort in developing an individual form. I saved up for six months to be able to spend a weekend with Len Cardinale. It was the best archery money that I ever spent. Just talking to him one-on-one for two days taught me more about archery than I thought existed. I still refer back to the notes that I took that weekend when I run into problems. Len never commented on my style or form and I'm pretty sure that my form wasn't (and isn't) exactly perfect according to the generally accepted model. He watched me shoot three arrows and then began teaching me the process of developing a good shot. I suspect that he only needed one arrow, but watched the other two to be sure. I shot a lot of arrows that weekend while he watched me do his drills and left twice the archer that I was before.
There are a lot of ways to avoid getting good at archery and I've done most of them. Messing with equipment, undisciplined practice, buying the magic arrows or new bow that will instantly make me consistent will use up time and money that could be better served with coaching and disciplined practice.
The point is that each archer has to decide how good they want to shoot and then do the things necessary to get there. If you want to be pretty good and have a lot of fun with it, you can probably get enough information from the internet, some books and a couple of videos. But, if you want a chance of beating Rod at a tournament, you will have to invest a lot more into it. Only the individual can make that decision.
Sorry for the long rant. I hope this helps,
Allen
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McDave, Allen....some very good points!
I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've told someone....ya don't get good with a bow, by trying to hit stuff!
Its my understanding that it takes 21 day to fully ingrain anything to the subconscious and thats the rub..most guys will do the boring form work for a few days, then see some improvement, then think "I'VE GOT IT!" then just have to go back to a target...then the subconscious reverts back to the old way you have ingrained, when faced with the added pressure of a target...then a couple misses later, you start changing things and trying something new..and it only goes downhill from....bottom line is, you cant focus on aiming(whatever your method) and form changes at the same time....groove your form , untill the subconscious cant remember how you used to do it...then only focus on aiming when your trying to hit stuff.
Then again if your happy with your shooting, dont change a thing.I like what JC's grandfather said...something to the effect of....every man has to choose his own level.
I keep hearing a rumor that Len Cardinale and myself(maybe more) will be doing an indept shooting video sometime later this year ;)
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I have 2 questions for the forum.
1. How much does consistency have to do with the bow? If you shoot different bows, does it hurt your consistency?
2. That said, I have a Ragim Impala, 60", 45#@ 28 (pretty new) and a Herters Sambar, kind of vintage, 64" 48@28. If I had to stick with one, which bow would be the better of the two?
All opinions appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Sam
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McDave,
Thanks for clearing some things up for me. I have never been taught or even watched by anyone. I learned completely by reading books and watching videos. I shot a compound for 12 years and I've been shooting recurves since 1998. You also hit the nail on the head about why I practice that way. I'm not sure if what I'm doing is right or not or if its making a difference. The only way I can know is to back up and check. And when I shoot 100 arrows at 5-10 yards with eyes closed without a target and I see some arrows off to the side, I've got to back up and check what's going on. I shoot most of the time without a target, but at some point, I like to have a little fun and put one up.
I've only shot twice since my first post. I didn't mean to say "Oh look, I worked on form for 1 session and now I've got it. I don't need to continue working on my form."
As I mentioned earlier, I did post a video here and I only had 4 responses (3 by the same person). I was hoping for more, but didn't get it. I should also mention, that based on some of those comments I made some changes and that video isn't a good representation of my form now.
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McDave,
I should also say, I'm sorry for somewhat of a highjacking of your post. Please forgive my intrusion.
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No problem, Jeff. I think we're both looking for the same thing.
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Originally posted by SHOOTO8S:
I keep hearing a rumor that Len Cardinale and myself(maybe more) will be doing an indept shooting video sometime later this year ;)
Rod,
Please put me at the top of the list to get that video!! Considering who is involve, it will probably have more good information than all the other videos available.
Allen
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That's a video I'll buy as well.
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Think about pushing a door closed with your left hand while you push a door closed with your right elbow, all while you are at full draw (assuming right handed shooter). Now, imagine there is a hungry bear behind one door and a hungry lion behind the other one. Proceed to try and keep them from opening either door and eating you until the string explodes from your fingers. Works best when shooting at point blank range with eyes closed. Good luck, Paul.
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Originally posted by Ssamac:
I have 2 questions for the forum.
1. How much does consistency have to do with the bow? If you shoot different bows, does it hurt your consistency?
2. That said, I have a Ragim Impala, 60", 45#@ 28 (pretty new)
Sam
I am also curious about equipment. I understand it is all about the shooter, but if you were to take the same "average" shooter give them a started bow (e.g. Ragim Impala) and then have them shoot with a top of the line bow (Bob Lee, Black Widow, etc...)which is likely 10x the price, how much difference would you see in terms of accuracy and grouping?
K
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Targets3D & Ssamac, "average shooter" == no, you would not see any difference. A light poundage bow is what is needed, not a custom whiz-bang. As Rod and McDave and others have said, when you're working on form, the results on the butt DO NOT MATTER!!!!!!
If you're "blind baling" then the position of the arrows in the target REALLY DO NOT MATTER and they are NO indication of what you are working on.
As has been said before, If you can achieve consistent form, that will give you the grouping and then (and only then) moving the group to the bull's eye is the easy part.
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Originally posted by SHOOTO8S:
I keep hearing a rumor that Len Cardinale and myself(maybe more) will be doing an indept shooting video sometime later this year ;)
Rod,
I assume that the video you referred to here was MOBB # 3. I was right about that one having a lot of good information!!
Any other videos with Len in the works?
Allen
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McDave,
I struggle with the same problem. Shooting all my arrows into into 3 or smaller inch groups and then bam a couple 6 to 8 inch groups.
I have found two things cause this. One is lack of focus on a tiny spot. I get tired and end up looking at the whole target instead of the center.
Most commonly though it is lack of back tension on the shot. If I don't pull thru the shot I find that my string arm is not aligned right and I shoot left a lot. My bow arm moves to the side due to poor alingment. When I am missing up and down it is either high or low elbow position on the string arm. This causes the bow to move up or down. None of these things happen if I remember to pull with my back muscles and continue increasing back pressure until the string just pulls away from my fingers. By using steadily increasing back pressure my arm drops into the proper position and the shot gets off clean.
I know I used proper back tension and I am going to hit where I am looking when my thumb on my string hand lands on my shoulder after the release. Those arrows seem to magically bloom right in the center of the target. Now I just have to make it so I always do that!
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It is interesting for me to see this post re-surface that I posted in February, 2008.
Probably the most significant thing I've done to improve my shooting in the 2+ years since I posted this is to learn how to use back tension, as mentioned by Clay. The tools to learn how to do this were provided to me in a class by Rod Jenkins that I attended in Hood River, Oregon, a little more than a year ago.
I learned a lot about using back tension in the class, but it has taken a year of practice since then to learn how to put back tension together with a relaxed bow hand and relaxed string hand. The combination of those three things has gone a long way to answering the question I posed back in 2008.
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Dave..congrats on sticking with learning to use BT! I always say its simple....but not easy :)
BT is paramount to becoming a consistent archer, but sadly, so far in 9 clinics this year with approximately 100 attending, I have had a total of 2 shooters that understood BT...and a bunch using the wrong muscles and calling it BT.
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Those two weren't in my class. About a dozen people attended, most of whom had been shooting for several years and had a serious interest in shooting as well as they could. As I remember, everyone agreed that none of us had been using proper back tension prior to attending the class.
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After watching MOBB#3 and seeing Daryl with the formmaster, I don't know if I'm using proper bt but I do know that when I'm getting eractic groups I really concentrate on bt and my groups tighten right up. Somewhere I heard that it's like trying to squeeze an egg between your shoulder blades.
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Masters of the bare bow three is a great video. it has helped me alot. but the hardest part of my shot to put togeather is back tention. I have had target panic along time so I decided I would cure it. have tryed this and that. on june the 6th I started keeping a diary of my shooting and shooting close bale every day sometimes morning and evening. the shot came togeather good all but the back tention and on july the 7th is when I got it. took me that long but when it happened I knowed it. I am ingraining it in now. I have the strongest shot that I have ever had.
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The secret of good form is to learn it. The best thing you can do is carefully learn the process of shooting from gripping the bow and nocking the arrow to letting the bow down after the shot. Notice and learn everything you need to know to incorporate good form in all your actions, then practice it enough that you can do it without thought (instinctive). That is why blind bale work is good -- the only thing you have to work on is your form. (Shooting instinctively simply means you have done it enough you don't have to think about it to get it right.)
Although most of "good form" is mechanics we all learn, there are some things that are personal about it. Do you shoot better after exhaling or when you hold your breath; do you squint one eye, have both open, curl your tongue, wiggle your ears or whatever. Whatever it takes to make your "good form" work, learn that and practice it.
Once you have that form instilled in your muscle memory, if you start having a bad day, it doesn't take long to go over your form from start to finish to see what you're doing wrong.