Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Terry Green on April 29, 2006, 08:39:00 PM
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Cause Cant wasn't a bowhunter.....
I see questions arise about 'where' to cant, 'how much to cant', 'can you cant the same way twice'? Target archers need to drive tacks and execute the same exact shot over and over....BUT! Bowhunters, especially those that spend a lot of time on the ground need to be a bit more versatile IMO. They should be able to manufacture and deliver shots from the terrain and environment Mother nature throws at them. I hope to show that you can cant the bow how ever you want to, and that it doesn't have to be the same angle every time.
Every person needs their 'back yard' shot', and need to be able to shoot how they feel comfortable, either vertical or canted. Yes, it is easy for most to cant the same angle every time. Once you get your back yard shot down, you can then add variations to your shot to capitalize on opportunities that arise in the field, as we most times have a small window of opportunity. All it takes is devotion and determination.
Also, contrary to what you may 'hear' or some folks claim....canting at different angles WILL NOT shorten your draw length if you are properly aligned. I demonstrate this in The Bowhunters of Trad Gang DVD along with proper alignment. Proper alignment makes for a stable shooting platform from many shooting positions.
Bowhunter's have also been accused of 'dumbing down' the sport of archery by non-hunting target archers.....but I say with a little effort and imagination, we can jazz it up pretty good.
These are extreme deviations of my normal shot....Its a bear target, but I'm practicing my low and tight hog shot. The black shafts got lost in the internet conversion....but the target impacts are 2 inches higher than the fletches due to the camera angle.
Dial up.....
Extreme Cant Angles I (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terryshoot1.wmv)
Extreme Cant Angles II (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terryshoot2.wmv)
Extreme Cant Angles III (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terryshoot3.wmv)
Broadband.....
Extreme Cant Angles (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terryshootcomp.wmv)
Over the Pond...... (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry-2.wmv)
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OK, that's pretty cool. I haven't been reading the posts about the cant, but I would guess it is more an issue of arrow location than bow position. But what do I know, just a guess.
Good job!
Goose
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For those of you watching terry's cant video, don't stop with the canting. Watch his draw arm and hand. Look at the follow through. Look at the smoothness of draw. look at the steadiness of his bow hand. There is a lot to be learned on this video. By the way, try the extreme canting for fun. You may be surprised at how well you do with it.
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Good point, Terry, there IS much to be learned/considered in the shooting methods. Howard Hill once told his students to make up their minds what they wanted to do, hunt or target shoot, because the two approaches don't mix well. I tend to agree with that logic. I don't think he meant it as a slam on either style and I certainly don't. In HH's case its simply the perspective of a respected individual very experienced and accomplished in BOTH arenas. There's much to be said, and learned, from that idea.
One MIGHT even consider the hunting style (canting, instinctive, simple gear, absence of accessories, etc.) as the 'traditional' style since it started with the first bow and the first bowhunter, and the target style as something more specialized that evolved in pursuit of more accuracy with the bow and arrow. Nothing WRONG with either approach, they are just DIFFERENT approaches.
Sometimes we confuse/meld the two styles and end up fighting over the differences.
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That bow really spits the arrows, I am new to traditional archery and this site, so I might sound starstruck but that was the coolest thing I have seen while on this sight. I am still saving to get a decent bow, but after watching that I might be going to get a second job. Awesome website Terry!
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Terry, I would very much like to see you have a feature segment in Masters of the Barebow Volume 3. The over the pond footage at the end of volumes 1 and 2 just isn't enough. Perhaps Darryl could give you about ten minutes for show and tell.
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Guys, aint nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
I did a bit of shooting and alignment talk in The Bowhunters of Trad Gang DVD ...if you'd like one, here's the link.........
Paypal link........ (http://www.tradgang.com/tgstore/index-pp3.html)
Mail order link...... (http://www.tradgang.com/tgstore/index-mi3.html)
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Thanks TG. Will send the order form in the morning.
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Up for the canting info.....
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Terry whats your setup in those video's. Bow weight, arrow weight, and whats that glove your wearing? I've gone through three gloves and two tabs and still haven't found one I like. I want a glove thats not to thick, will last a while, and most importantly WON'T CREASE!
Great shooting by the way. Really smooth release.
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Dozer....that's a 60" 60# Thunderstick MOAB, Arrow Dynamics Trad Heavies with 175 grain heads making them about 580 grains. And I use an American Leathers Big Shot glove that has slick nylon outer pads to prevent creasing.
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Since someone brought up a thread about canting from 2007....I brought this one up from 2006. Hope this helps some of the confusion on canting.
:campfire:
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Terry:
I suppose my vertical orientation (bow) is a product of my hunting. I don't hunt much from the ground (I would like to, though). Shooting targets.....I rarely "have" to cant (even in tough man contests). I usually find a way to shoot the shot the way that's most comfortable "to me".
I shot all 5 deer, this season, standing in a treestand (never shot any of my 26 from a sitting position). I have a ladder stand and a platform in my back yard, and I shoot with a cant from time to time. I honestly just don't do it much....because it's not required (for how I've hunted.....SO FAR).
I'm gonna play with it, though. I suppose it can't hurt....and will probably allow me a shot op. in the future (maybe this fall, in CO).
Good vids.
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Jeff....I've said it many times...you do not have to cant....but there will be times that if you can, you will capitalize if your hunting style deems so.
If all you do is hunt from a tree stand or an blind from a fixed position repaired for your shot, you may not ever need to. But I can't tell you how many times I've had to cant 'outside the box' to make a shot...and yes, I've even shot animals vertical.
Originally posted by Terry Green:
Proper alignment(form) can be carried to various cants and positions. Alignment and Form is from the waste up, and not hard to repeat once you achieve it, and easy to take to different positions that we get into in the field by using your waste and feet to acquire the position with the upper body still in line.
Yes, you need to achieve it(form/alignment) 1st in a comfortable position/cant angle that suits you(your back yard shot).....even if that means no cant/held vertical
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Jeff....here's where I actually answered you back in 2007 on this very subject....
Originally posted by Terry Green:
GMMAT,
You should have a 'backyard shot'...that keeps everything the same...even your cant. There is no 'set angle'....and it is easy to do if you will quit 'thinking about it' and just draw the bow and cant what comes natural. It will come to you without you having to find it.
Once you get your backyard shot down pat, and your accuracy is up to snuff beyond the range you plan you shooting game at, you can then practice sever cant, horizontal cant, straight up, and reverse cant.
The absolute beauty of the Trad Bow is you can control it, and not let it control you. It does not have to be held at a certain angle to make a shot....but it sure is best to have your backyard go to shot set in stone 1st.
BTW...if you will do a search for the word 'cant' in the subject for this forum...you will get all the info you need on canting.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Canting should not change Point of Impact...the arrow should go where your looking no matter if its a recurve or longbow. In other words, you shouldn't have to cant your bow a certain degree just to hit your spot.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
I agree....you don't have to cant the bow.
However, the advantage for me is seeing a larger/wider view of the playing field.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
IMO, canting has nothing to do with whether a bow is center shot or not......canting is just a position the bow is held in if that's your style or if the shot dictates.....its not a matter of center shot.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Your 'got to' shot is up to YOU...cant how ever much you feel you need to.
However, once you get that 'go to' shot down, you can practice various cant angles to execute the variations the game and terrain dictate.
There is no 'written in stone' when it comes to shooting a bow except that you get out of it as much as you put into it.
No, its not the highest handicaps give the most advice....just beware of my way is the highway guys.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Canting the bow has never had an effect on spine for me.....and I've canted from one extreme to the other, and never seen 'bad arrow flight'.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Bowhunting is NOT target archery.
If you only have one 'olympic' shot, you WILL miss out on opportunities in the field. I can give you example after example of kill shots I would have missed out on if I had to stand or cant in the same position. I have also witnessed many kill shots by other hunters that were way outside the box of an olympic archer.
As bowhunters, we do not get the perfect shot all the time, and we must manufacture and create shots as the terrain and vegetation throws everything in the book at us. The bowhunter needs more than one shot in his trick bag....he needs to be versatile....but that's up to each individual if he so chooses. I choose to dictate the shot, and not let the shot dictate me.
Get out there and mix it up.....its a lot of fun.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
If your alignment is correct, canting the bow shouldn't shorten one's draw length.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
No, you do not 'have' to cant, but you should be able to from various angles and even reverse cant if you want to capitalize on your shot opportunities.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
To reverse cant, you simply 'over hook' the string and pinch the arrow nock.
That means you rotate your wrist out and hook farther around the string, and when you draw everything will rotate back, and you'll have pressure holding the arrow on the shelf.
Easier shown than told.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Cant has nothing to do with 'form'....its just a position the bow is in.
Arrow flight has never been an issue for me....but the site picture changes.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
I think there is a discrepancy of terms here....
Arrow Flight = one thing.....and Point of Impact = another.
I think the question is about Point of Impact rather than Arrow Flight.
What you have to learn is the site picture, either consciously or subconsciously depending on how you aim. You have to practice different cant angles to learn the different site picture. Easier to explain for me by showing rather than typing.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
If I'm shooting vertical to horizontal, the arrow is still directly under the target cause I still have the arrow aligned for the same site picture because I align my head as well depending on the cant angle....again, easier to show than explain by typing.
The only time my site picture really changes is when I reverse cant....to what ever degree I'm shooting...and the sight picture is different for a slight reverse cant than if I'm lying on my back.
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Hey...I was just lookin' for a hat!....lol
Thanks, though. I remember the post I made, then. I was wondering how people settled on a particular position (cant). After talking to Rod (Jenkins) for a while, I went to a vertical bow. Whether it was that or something else, my accuracy improved, drastically. I've just never gone "back".
I can surely see the need....in some situations (like being able to wear the hat I want!!).
I'm gonna play with it. If I run into any problems....I'll yell!
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No worries Jeff....This posting wasn't in reference to your thread....but another one that was brought back up from 2007.
Nothing wrong with vertical....but nothing wrong with being versatile either...lots of benefits!!!
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To The Top.
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TTT again for the canting questions.
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That could very well be. I think I tend to tilt my head more and my torso less when getting tired. Thanks.
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This is a great and helpful thread. I have ordered the DVD and I am going to try the reverse cant. Thanks Terry for your explanation of a deep hook that makes sense. I agree the more different shooting angles of cant that we can master the more success we will see in the field. Threading the needle can be a real challenge sometimes and being able to shoot standing, sitting, kneeling or however the situation dictates, happens often when hunting. Great advice and video. Thanks for all the input from everyone.
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TTT for the cant thread.
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ttt
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I do want to know: how are you keeping the arrow on the rest when you reverse cant? Have you got your finger on the shaft till you shoot? I don't cant anymore when I practice, but I think it is good to be able to do it in case you get a "cant or can't" shot in the woods.
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Great thread and Terry some of that shooting is amazing across the pond. Is the tradgang dvd available to outside the US ? I see two options within the lower 48 and the other couple .
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Roll the string as you draw to keep the arrow on the shelf.
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Originally posted by khardrunner:
Roll the string as you draw to keep the arrow on the shelf.
That's it? Doesn't seem like it would stay on the shelf, but I'll take your word for it. Can't see myself ever trying such a shot, but it sure looks neat to see someone who can do it.
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Works for me. I learned it from my Schulz video.
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Yes....its explained in simple detail in The Bowhunters of TradGang DVD....with a little pinch on the nock with your fingers, it will stay....
I've actually taken several animals with reverse cant...a pheasant on the wing, a trotting hog, a stationary hog, and a couple of bunnys come to mind.
Macca....yeah...just order a $10 one and I'll mail ya one out.
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Thanks Terry.
Cheers Macca.
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Thank for the tips, nice shooting, i will practice canting at more extreme angles after hunting season. Can see how it can be a big plus while hunting.
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Up for the guy asking about canting the bow.
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Those vids were absolutely freaking awesome! Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of talent, but it's fun to watch people who do. I am a very mechanical shooter, good in my own way, but I am not that natural. Very nice.
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I will also say that I was drawn to trad archery because of seeing people who could shoot with such a natural, flowing rythym like that. I was tired of being a machine. Unfortunately, I don't shoot very well unless I work like a machine.
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It also seems like only longbow shooters ever look that smooth and natural; I've not seen any recurve shooters duplicate the kind of shooting, in terms of relaxed smoothness, that I see on those vids.
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Paul...I shoot recurves and selfbows the same way.
I might change bows, but I don't change form or style.
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It just seems like longbow shooters have a bit more flair, while recurve shooters usually tend to remain a bit more orthodox, Terry. Something about the lightness and slim profile of the longbow, perhaps? I never could learn to love the longbow, but l love to watch good longbow shooters.
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I don't know...I think a lot of us (including me) shoot both recurves and longbows.
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I heat ya Paul...I do prefer longbows by far.
Light in the hand, always seem quieter, and I don't need a stringer...can't keep up with one anyway, same reason I use a glove instead of a tab :biglaugh:
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That is the main reason I never really tried to shoot a tab, other than the fact that they hit my lip, and I never could trim one so that it didn't.
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Terry , do you feel your eye to arrow relationship is the same however you Cant?
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Yes...but the site picture is rotated either right or left or upside down.
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do you have to rotate the hand terry before you hook the string canting the bow?
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Kyle,
Take some time to watch the videos carefully. The answer to your question as well as many that you may have will be evident.
This is a great resource for a would-be hunter having to improvise a shot...happens all the time in the real world.
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Ah...yes...and I demonstrate in in The Bowhunters of TradGang DVD. Some folks claim that canting to bow is for keeping the arrow on the shelf...that is only a band aid for an improper grip on the string.