Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: doublewhopper on October 26, 2007, 06:04:00 PM
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I have only taken one shot from my stand with my recurve and my arrow went over the deers back by a few feet.
What changes when you take a downward shot with traditional archery? How do you compensate for the lack of paradox?
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Draw your bow in the upright posistion and then bend over at the waist, keep the , " T " form in your upper body. What you did was most likely lowered your bow shoulder instead of bending at the waist. Number one cause of shooting high out of the tree. I am no expert for sure, but this is what I have been told.
nocams
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NoCams is correct, bending at the waist is the best method. I have another idea to add, when shooting at game from an elevated position, you will see far more of the other side of the animal, in other words you see the spine, and the off side.
This can make the target area appear to be wider than it really is. Most people will not focus on the side nearest to them, and not pick the spot. Couple this with a tendency to shoot way to fast and you have the high arrow syndrone.
In addition to bending at the waist, I have begun to make my self hold after I find the spot I intend to hit, an extra count and one half. My high shots have almost completely disappeared.
Barry Wensel once said, "when you encounter game, and the shot is rushed, the tendency is to shoot high'.
I think Mr. Wensel is right on target with that. I might suggest more practice at the height you will be hunting. I find the more I practice from an elevated position, the more confidence I have, and the less likely my shots to go astray.
Seems like everytime I think I have figured this game out, some stupid deer comes by and makes a ass out of me.....I hope your next shot will be spot on!
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Canting is very important here too.if your right handed and your high miss went also to the left your canting the bow will correct this
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Every deer that I missed or made amarginal shot on was HIGH !!! I totally agree with what Scott Williams said too about picking the near side spot and not rushing the shot. I also think when they are close like that and the angle is steep we have a tendency to , " peek ", which also causes a high miss. We just cannot wait to get the shot off because our computer says, " it is close just get on with it, easy shot. " Shot a 3D course this year and the shots were really close on average, but I know that I could have scored much higher if I would not have peeked and rushed those, " easy shots ". Shot several 8's that would have been 10's if I just slowed down a little.
Concentrate on bending the waist, you will find it is not that easy, especially if you are are little thicker in the waist like I am !!! Gotta lay off them cookies !!! You will definitely feel different from normal if you are doing it right. It is much easier to do the wrong thing and just drop your bow shoulder, trust me I know. :banghead:
nocams
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Guys I'm lost here with "Bending at the waist" analogy. I can't seem to understand the mechanics how that corrects anything. But each his own...
Doublewhooper...Deer crouch down to run on hearing bow noise. Some say it's 4-10"..Thats a factor
Target is smaller when elevated.....I only hunt 10-12 feet...Makes a huge difference in getting me a bigger target
Lastly we have the tendency to "setup" high to begin with. Meaning we hurry the shot and never set our bow arm at correct elevation. If you set draw, then this is a huge culprit.
Good luck.. my cheat trick is stack the deer on top of the arrow with some daylight!?....you'll know when this happens and it will all come together.
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Joebuck,
It is not a big deal when hunting from the height you hunt, but when you increase the height to fifteen feet or higher, the tendency is to draw from an erect position, in fact you are over drawing and healing the bow. That will cause the arrow to go higher. When you bend at the waist you don't extend your draw more than normal, therefore the shot is not altered from the same machanics you use when shooting on level ground, and as stated so well above, you won't be so likely to peek.
While I won't debate the issue here, sometimes you need to get higher.
Oh! by the way Joebuck, not everyone shoots a gap.
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I think that just like shooting a rifle downhill, it will always shoot high. This is one of the big reasons we had a spotter to help with the aiming. Now, gravity works, yes. But when shooting down the eye has a tendency to judge the target closer than it really is. Not only that but ballistically speaking, the projectile will gain altitude naturally depending upon descent angle. The angles around 45 degrees are the worst ones for gaining. between the angles of 30 and 50 degrees, one really should expect the projectile to hit high. Anything less and it is like shooting at the range, and anything more is likely very close anyway. If not close straight down---then it will fall at gravity.
Stand at a narrow gap. Throw a rock at the other side at ground level, then throw a rock at something 20ft down the other side----you will see how your eye perceives the distance.
Just a thought from a Special Warfare guy.
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hey Joebuck i have shot over 5 deer this year with traditional equipment but have taken 100 with compounds over 20 years and a deer can drop the length of their hoof to the first joint of their leg usually about 10" plus in 400 hundreths of a second all they are doing is loosing weight to push off to get out of there from a noise they heard when the bow is shot.
bending at the waist keeps the geometry of the shot intact it is critical to bend try this when you get in your stand draw your bow and don't bend at the waist and then bend and see what happens to your anchor and shot hope this helped have a good one Ralph
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Very good advice and observations. I can add that from an elevated stand or position shooting I purposely hold a bit lower than the spot I pick to hit. Worst case is a low miss which is better than a high marginal hit any day. A low miss is rare though, most often the deer drops right into the hit...
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Well I'll chime in on shooting from an elevated stand. First, bending at the waist does make a difference, at least for me. I'm not sure I can explain why and what it causes or corrects, but IMO it has more to do with the sight picture and where my brain thinks the arrow is going.
Bottom line IMO: If you do not practice from an elevated stand (close to same height) you will struggle shooting from one when you hunt. If you shoot enough from an elevated stand you can form your own opinion regarding bending at the waist or not. Why would you not practice the exact (or as close too) scenario you will have when you are hunting? If you hunt from the ground shoot from the ground, but if you are going to climb a tree, I would suggest at least 4-5 hundred shots from a treestand before the season (I've shot that many in the last week). You will be surprised what it will do for your shooting and confidence.
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the reason for my misses not practicing at 18 20 ft high i am gonna look below the deer my next opportunity deer are amazingly fast going down!
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Sorry guys, I'm still not buying it. All bending at the waist does is cause one to cant his bow over more. Which rotates the arrow shelf over which in turn rolls the arrow from 1 o'clock to 3 o'clock...Yes ,it will lower your shot some but will throw some additional paradox to the arrow. Plus your head posture ( tilt) will have to change which could affect your nocking reference on your face maybe.
You can try this on the ground and see how it affects your arrow flight at 20 yards.
I just didn't come up with this analogy....I have been doing this since 89'solely...no gun...no compound....just traditional...The center part of your bow grip is your fulgram..Your arrow is resting 1-2.5" ( depending on the bow) over this fulgram. When you start leaning the bow over.....your leaning your arrow over too, Now the dymanics of your arrow and instinctive sight picture have changed....
ScottJ ....Drawing while standing erect will produce Overdrawing the bow?...Man thats a new one....Gap shooting?...instinctive/secondary vision probably...but not gap...
I just don't agree it good advise to tell someone just bend at the waist to fix a high shot. It's more variables to consider. Mainly deer is dropping. That drop is more extended the further you shoot out at him given varibles like how calm he is versus how spooked he is...yada yada
RNHarris........100 deer in 20 years!.....You must know Gilbert Peel....
Heres my typical shot stance in a tree which I practice alot and is the same body posture as flat ground. I made that bow 10 years ago and haven't changed anything with my setup except a BH every now and then. But I will admit, this type of stand is the best for rock solid stance and promotes consistence form
In short...IMO...all bending at the waist does is give you a bigger sight window...maybe theres some secret mojo in that but I wouldn't shoot out of a tree bending over at the waist unless I shot that way on the ground....Flame away :D
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c114/swamprooter/GuidosWeb2.jpg)
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Joebuck,
They're not talking about crouching over and canting, they're talking about bending toward your bow arm...sort of sideways if you will. The purpose is to keep your upper body perpendicular to your line of sight -- maintaining proper T form.
Really no mojo involved, just stardard age-old archery form. ;)
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OHHHHHHHH.....so bending over at waist.....well this may be a stupid question...But how do you shoot down if you don't bend over? :knothead:
....Unless one is hanging from a trapezz contraption like I am in the above picture.....We all have to bend over at the waist for a close instinctive shot under 20 or so yards....I thought ya'll were telling him to do the "Asbell Stoop Over Stance"
DoubleWhooper...you do tilt over to shoot down don't you :goldtooth:
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I shoot with minimal cant, and don't add more when I bend at the waist shoot from an elevated stand or position. I do use short bows, 52"-58"...
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joebuck,
You're talking about bending over foreward, as if you were picking up something dropped in front of you. What's being discussed here is bending to the side -- basic archery form for shooting uphill or downhill.
My apologies for mot being able to find an archery-related illustration, but I think you get the idea.
(http://www.fitness.com/exercises/uploaded/1186953832_0703090062.gif)
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My way of shooting out of a tree stand , without shooting high ,is to simply bend my left knee and that way i still keep everything in perfect line ( I shoot right handed ). Voila ! No overshooting a critter.
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Jason...could you please explain and what's your source for "basic archery form for shooting uphill and downhill"..I have never read about that. It seems to me all bending at the waist like the young lady is doing will only put your bow what 6-8 inches closer to your target, create an unstable stance in a tree stand, and probably not to safe leaning out over a tree stand platform.
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Originally posted by joebuck:
Jason...could you please explain and what's your source for "basic archery form for shooting uphill and downhill"
Pretty much any respected basic archery instructional text that's been written in the last hundred years or so. ;)
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Okay, thanks. Do you have the name of one? I would like to read it, thanks
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Bending at the waist is needed on up or downhill shots in order to mantain the same alignment and shoulder position as when shooting on level ground in wahts often call the basic T....most shooters acomplish this in either of 2 ways....bending at the waist, then drawing the bow or drawing the bow as you would on level ground, then bending to target.
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Rod, if you bend at the waist, doesn't that make your T bent?...I keep my bow arm and drawing arm in line. My trunk is straight and solid always no matter angle of shot.
For arguement sake, Shooting High with a Traditional Bow ( NO sights)....How does bending forward or tilting at the waist correct this?........Now some have published that shooting uphill/downhill ( with sights) you need to bend at the waist.......but 25 yards and in...I'm sorry guys....We'll agree to disagree.....The deer is dropping everytime....IMO..pick a lower spot and change Nothing.. :)
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Originally posted by joebuck:
I keep my bow arm and drawing arm in line. My trunk is straight and solid always no matter angle of shot.
Joe...by all means if your shooting near 100% on game, theres no reason to look at what your doing.
Shoulder position is the reason to bend at the waist...if you drop the bow shoulder for a downhill shot instead of keeping the T by bending, you have effectively changed shoulder position.
Off cours theres other factors involved in shooting high from a tree stand..I think the biggest reason along with alignment is... people are using the arrow to aim more than they realize...practice all year and get a sight picture than works well on flat groud, then with the different view a target presents when on a angle, aiming needs to be adapted...much like a severly quartering away target normals throw you off, if you use your normal hold.
Of course some deer drop at release....but not all of them.... aiming low corrects misalignment....but what happens when your deer doesn't duck?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/shooto8s/t.jpg)
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Rod J...you stated.."Joe...by all means if your shooting near 100% on game, theres no reason to look at what your doing"......Look at what I'm doing??? You lost me here Rod? could you explain, please
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you asked "But what happens if deer doesn't duck" .....I usually heart shoot him although more hers than hims.. ;) .But I limit myself to 20 yards and in...
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Joe, it's a bit crude, but maybe this drawing can help you envision what everybody is talking about when they advise bending at the waist, and why not doing so would affect the shot.
On the left is the usual T alignment. In the center is the wrong way to shoot from an elevated stand, and the drawing on the right is the correct way of bending at the waist to shot from an elevated stand.
(http://thumb10.webshots.net/t/60/460/6/46/6/2363646060102430710WCmkZd_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2363646060102430710WCmkZd)
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fyrfyter43...IMO it would be extremely hard to pull a hunting weight bow back to anchor in your figure 2. The string torge in your grip would be tremendous...
We have several arguements going on in this thread...
1. Some say tilt over at the waist...on this point I'm arguing...yeah...duh..you have to, to able to shoot down in first place... He's already doing that
2. Some have said "bend" over more at the waist...This point I'm asking "wheres the beef to support this theroy". You change the dynamics of your shot picture with this correction.
3. I'm advising Double whooper to just aim lower. For example My spot is bottom of heart on entry side broadside at 12 yards and I'm 14' high
If deer ducks some...I double lung.....really ducks, I spine.......does nothing, I heart shoot..If I drop bow bow arm or miss calculate short.I miss.
Now for the record..I shoot like fyrfyter43's figure 3 and RobJ figure..I'm not arguing that...I'm arguing bending more at the waist (tilting or over) has nothing to do with correcting the problem of shooting high.
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Originally posted by joebuck:
Now for the record..I shoot like fyrfyter43's figure 3 and RobJ figure..I'm not arguing that...I'm arguing bending more at the waist (tilting or over) has nothing to do with correcting the problem of shooting high.
It has everything to do with it for me. If I do not keep the geometry (from the waist up) the same as when I shoot from the ground (level) then it changes the shot picture and I shoot high. I still say there is no substitute for practicing (a lot) from an elevated stand to gain confidence and proficiency. Why argue about what works and what does'nt? I'm gonna know what works for me when I shoot from an elevated stand.
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Eagle 24...you said "it has everything to do with me" Please explain what? Reread my POST...I'm asking how does bending MORE at the waist correct HIGH misses? I'm not arguing your geometry example.. I AGREE!.....again.....I'm asking how does bending MORE at the waist CORRECT high misses out of a treestand.....
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Originally posted by joebuck:
Eagle 24...you said "it has everything to do with me" Please explain what? Reread my POST...I'm asking how does bending MORE at the waist correct HIGH misses? I'm not arguing your geometry example.. I AGREE!.....again.....I'm asking how does bending MORE at the waist CORRECT high misses out of a treestand.....
Sorry, I'm not an expert on archery form. All I can say is this: If I do not bend at the waist I shoot high. I also have no feel for the elevation on my shot. The sight picture looks totally different if I stand erect and lower my bow arm and I will be aimed higher than I think I am.
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I would also like to add that hunting lower will give you more of the site picture you are used to seeing off the ground . I missed my first trad. shot and I was about 25 foot up but since the I started hunting lower ( 8 to 15 feet depending on cover) and I am 3 for 3 . Thats not saying you wont still miss but I sure helped me alot . One other thing , set up a 8 foot ladder out in the yard and pratice shooting off of it , heck I hunt off a 8 foot ladder alot of the time ( learned that trick at a place called pongo wildlife refuge , folks that have hunted there know what I mean ) .
Mike
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BRITTMAN, Its not so much that there is more of a site picture than it is a complete difference in your eye'e PERCEPTION of range.
We would do an exercise in a certain shooting school and they went like this.
Take your hunting buddy along with you to a spot that is elevated over say....a little wooded draw. I say wooded, because not only do we generally set up in wooded areas, but the extra "clutter" of the trees will throw your eye off even more.
Forgot to mention----bring along a decent rangefinder.
Pick a random object down there and make a good honest guess about the range, now let your buddy shoot it with the rangefinder. In most cases, you will judge it to be further away than it actually is.(particularly at the 45 degree range)
Exercise was used for teaching perception to the shooter----You won't be blessed with a spotter all the time. Works like a charm.
Just keep doing it till you can accurately guesstimate the range and can hit it with your shot right away.
I'm not disagreeing about form, I am just putting some more info out there.
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Originally posted by Rod Jenkins:
Bending at the waist is needed on up or downhill shots in order to mantain the same alignment and shoulder position as when shooting on level ground in wahts often call the basic T....most shooters acomplish this in either of 2 ways....bending at the waist, then drawing the bow or drawing the bow as you would on level ground, then bending to target.
Yep Joey...and it don't 'bend' the T...the T is from the waist up!
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Originally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
Originally posted by joebuck:
Jason...could you please explain and what's your source for "basic archery form for shooting uphill and downhill"
Pretty much any respected basic archery instructional text that's been written in the last hundred years or so. ;) [/b]
Yep Jason!!!
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Originally posted by fyrfyter43:
Joe, it's a bit crude, but maybe this drawing can help you envision what everybody is talking about when they advise bending at the waist, and why not doing so would affect the shot.
On the left is the usual T alignment. In the center is the wrong way to shoot from an elevated stand, and the drawing on the right is the correct way of bending at the waist to shot from an elevated stand.
(http://thumb10.webshots.net/t/60/460/6/46/6/2363646060102430710WCmkZd_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2363646060102430710WCmkZd)
Yep...its EASY to drop your bow arm, and your site picture WILL change no matter what aiming method you use.
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"I'm asking how does bending MORE at the waist correct HIGH misses?"
Keeps you from dropping your bow arm, taking you out of alignment, and changing your site picture.
Canting the bow a little more also helps a few shoot more accurate from a treestand.
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TG welcome back out of the swamps.....I'm through trying to help DoubleWhopper..we have argued so much about our Bending at the waist this much and that much, even my stomach muscles hurt just thinking about all that bending :D I think DoubleWhopper has left the building!....Good luck Guys this Rut whatever system ya'll use....Enjoy the woods and your friends
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Joey....who's arguing?
I've seen you shoot, and you're a long time trad bowhunter.....you know what we are talking about....side muscles not stomach muscles. :D
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TG,My side muscles went to grease! conjeld fat! :scared: Some of these posts got me thinking though about over canting the bow for close shots.. D.Dauler shoots a longbow almost horizontal in the stand on 12 and in...I'm going to experiment in my flying trapezee stand different bow cants... Maybe another topic for a log on the fire.
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I agree that you have to keep that consistant basic t no matter what you are shooting at or where it is. I think you can also accomplish this in downward shots (not everyone can) if you drop the forward knee as Byron explains in his book. I have a slight problem with this though and it seems to through me a little off balance.
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Bend the front knee the rest will follow in proper form.
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Originally posted by smoke1953:
Bend the front knee the rest will follow in proper form.
Nope...that's wrong.
The "T" is the key. Here's how you do it.
Slight downhill shots:
With level foot position (treestand platform). Move your hips backwards before the draw . Keep the upper body part of your body and shoulders in a "'T'" position.
Steep downhill shot:
Level ground (treestand platform). Open your foot position, move your hips backwards and straighten your upper body before the draw .
The steeper the shot the more you will have to open your stance.
Once you get it down, you can get into position from any posture that you find yourself in the field, but it's best to practice it from your normal stance beforehand. The key to it is moving the hips back before the draw . Hips back for downhill and hips forward for uphill, that's the rule. You can even do it while kneeling
I'm trying to figure out how to convert PDF images into jpegs so I can post some pics. This is just basic FITA Field Archery stuff.
Soooooooo much, for the hunting archer to learn from the target guys...lol! :goldtooth:
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And SOOOOOooooo much for the one stance, one cant, one postion, one shot target guys to learn from the bowhunters that dictate and control the bow at their demand and actually kill stuff doing so with amaizing accuracy.....like most of the guys I hunt with.
Two way street.
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(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4800/bsprfshrw5.jpg)
Like this?
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If you hunt from the ground practice from the ground.If you hunt from the tree then practice accordingly.I hunt from the tree and the last 6- 8 weeks before season thats all I practice. Find what works for you to hit the spot but I think you will see bending will be your choice as well.
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what ever form it takes to get the shot off and kill the critter. there is no one form for hunting. every situation requires diferent form. if you can draw to anchor and see your target you can shoot it cant no cant, kneeling sitting laying down. the ability to contort your T i belive is a desired skill. if you are scaling a cliff and that bear shows up straight above you there is no room to turn shoulder straight would you pass up the shot. not if you practice your laying down shots. It is instinctive shooting if your instincts say to kill the critter do it, if you miss practice untill you are killing every thing in range. the deadliest predator is the versitale one.
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I agree with bending at the waist and using a consistent "T" to keep your sign picture and draw length the same regardless of the shot angle.
But, there is another factor that hasn't been mentioned, and that is that the amount of drop you get in your arrow is based on the horizontal distance from you to the target, not the straight line distance. If you are say 15' above your target and the target is 20 yards away, then you need to aim based on the 17+/- yards that it is from the base of your tree. The same thing goes for shooting uphill. This is why the range finder manufacturers are now selling "intelligent" rangefinders that give you the true balistic distance for those uphill or downhill shots. Here is an example of one:
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10151&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&partNumber=95300&hvarTarget=search&cmCat=SearchResults
BTW, I teach both of these concepts, the T and the true distance, in my IBEP course and it really helps the students.
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JR,
I believe you can take your form to those shots you mentioned....they are just variations of positions. You can still execute proper form and aligment in many positions, stances, and bow cant angles if you are properly aligned.
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Here is my take after Thanksgiving weekend where I missed 4 shots high and finally drilled a buck dead center kill-zone heartshot. and it walked calmly 20 yards and fell over dead. Lucky me, the place is crawling with deer to get so many shots!
All of the shots were 18-20 yards - easy.
All shots were from a 7 1/2 foot high tripod -sitting. After three misses high, I got a target and set it up and shot it from the tripod. No problem - dead on. My next shot at a deer was a miss high. What was wrong with my form?
Nothing. When I drilled the deer on the fifth shot the problem was crystal clear from the picture in my mind. That shot, I saw the arrow zip right into the spot I was focused on. In fact, I didn't see the whole deer, just the arrow hitting that spot. There was nothing else in the world in my attention besides that spot, and it's like I watched a ball of feathers just go there. The image in my mind lacks any peripheral details. Tunnel vision. total focus. Same as when I drilled the target dead on.
But, on all the high misses - I was looking at the whole deer. My mental picture memory of the shot is a very different picture of a whole deer, lanscape and all, as the arrow sails over its back. Lots of periphery details in those inmages. One was an attempted neck shot at 15 yards. I thought that would put me onto a tighter target. Shot at the whole neck - high again by 6 inches. I remember the deer standing behind the one I missed. More periphery, less focus - no spot - missed high.
Focus on the spot - until the arrow hits. Then watch the deer.
In the heat of the moment I tend to gaze at the deer and put him in my shot picture as I draw. But, picking the spot - the deer seems to almost dissappear from my attention. There is just that center of the kill zone, and my arrow ends up there.
Maurice Thompson and Saxton Pope and Howard Hill all wrote about this the same way.
I keep having to learn it every time I hunt.