Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Traditional-Archer on August 03, 2007, 09:45:00 PM
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BOW 58" WEIGHT OF LIMBS 1-55@27" LIMBS 2-61@27" I AM SHOOTING BEMON ICS 400 9.1 GPI 125-G TIP 15-G FOR FETHERS @ 26" TOTAL WEIGHT 413-G ON THE SCALE. SHOOTING AT DENTON WITH A FRIEND THATS BEEN SHOOTING 8 OR 9 YEARS TRAD EQUIPMENT,WELL TO MAKE IT SHORT HE THINKS MY ARROWS ARE TO LIGHT. I TEND TO AGREE. I THINK I AM GOING TO TRY SOME ARROWS I LOOKED AT TODAY. CARBIN EXSPRESS I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NUMBER. I LOOKED AT SO MANY. 12.1G 125 TIP 15-G FEATHERS 10-G INCERTS 27"LONG SHOULD BRING ME UP TO AROUND 500-G OR SO. AM I ON THE RIGHT TRACK OR WAISTING MONEY.IS 65 OR 85-G GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERANCE
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At 500 grains, you're nowhere near having too much arrow weight. 65-85 grains won't make much difference. A couple of hundred might. Of course, you don't need much weight for deer size animals if your arrows are well tuned and broadheads are sharp.
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I like the guideline that's out there: 10 grains per pound you shoot. I think my current set up is in the 12-13 per pound.
Orion is right: you could stack deer with your current set up. Beyond the penetration advantages of heavy arrows, other advantages of heavier arrows come with more quiet shots, and I'd have to imagine that the heavier arrows will translate to longevity of one's bow. Some arrows I've seen being shot out of trad bows (350 grain out of a #55 bow, for example--the bow sounds like a .22 going off) is too close to a dry fire for my taste.
You are on the right track. I'm sure that the penetration advantages of heavy arrows can get to a point of diminishing returns, but you aren't anywhere close to that point. Keep it up.
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The rule of thumb I use is 8 - 10 grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight. My current set-up is 9.8 grains per pound. Seems to work. I get good penetration not much much arrow drop over my max hunting distance of 20+/- yards.
The theory behind heavy arrows is that the additional weight aids in punching through bone if the shot isn't perfectly placed. This is true up to a point. What the super-heavy arrow advocates fail to take into consideration is that penetration is a combination of weight and velocity. Given that a bow stores only so much energy, the heavier the arrow the slower it will fly. There is no such thing as a free lunch in physics. As you add weight you take away velocity and the equation evens out. Don't take my word for this. Stack up about 18" of wet newspaper, bind it together with twine, and stand it up on edge so you can shoot through the thickness. Now take your bow and an arrow of around 8 grains per pound of draw weight and another of 15 grains/pound. Shoot them into the stack. Mark the arrows even with the surface of the paper stack. Pull them and measure penetration. You will see what I'm talking about.
John
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Orion,
thank you I figured but it is always good to here others repeat what you think you already know. And you are right about broadheads I think sharp broadheads are one of the most inportant ingredients in penetration as well thanks again.
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JARROD fEINER,
I also like 8 to 10 or even more depending on the bow setup draw length and so on. What I am trying to navigate through is the best way to develop the right arrow for the bow. 8 to 10 the right spine weight and so on. Thanks again Jarrod your help is well taken and very much appreciated.
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JHansen,
My new arrows are coming in at 27" I have an actual draw length of 25.5" is 27" long enough to start for tuning in the arrows. how and should I bare shaft tune my bow and arrows at this point or do I have more work to do.
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Bruce,
I like to start with as long a shaft as possible and with the brace height of the bow set as low as possible. In other words, I want a weak spine initially. Since your arrows are coming pre-cut, you will have to pass on the long-as-possible part. An arrow should be at least 1" longer than your draw length so you don't cut your finger with a broadhead. Yours will be 1.5" longer which is fine but doesn't give you much room to shorten the shaft. What you are left with as variables are brace height and point weight. The lower the brace height the longer the power stroke and the weaker the arrow performs. You can twist up to make the arrow act stiffer. You can increase point weight to make the arrow act weaker or decrease point weight to make it act stiffer.
I've never had any luck bare shaft tuning as a first step. This is probably because I start off way weak and work toward stiffer. I start off with a fletched arrow and shoot it watching for the old nock left = weak and nock right = stiff indications. (Actually, in my case it is the opposite since I'm a lefty.) Once I have a fletched shaft flying straight I'll do the fine tuning by the bare shaft planing method. You may have better luck starting off with bare shaft than I do. Try it and see what happens. Tinkering with a bow and arrows is all part of the fun. ;)
John
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I like the simple method, just put a 0 behind your bow weight, 55#=550grn arrow, 61#=610grn arrow, should get close to good flying arrow for deer.
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JHanen,
Thanks it all makes good sense. I got my arrow yesterday and shot them today. they are shooting right at three feet from the target. doe's this meen I'm to stiff. You can tell they are comming off the rest lets say not straight at 20 yards. Thay are the 27" shafts the 28" shafts are not shooting good at all. 12.1 gpi 468 grains. It did by far quiet the bow down as I exspected.
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Thanks Dan.
Thats My goal but I think with my short draw I am going to have a hard time getting there ,if I want to stay with carbons 12.1 GPI 12.1 X 27" = 326.7 + 125 tip I can't go bigger with Carbon unless someone knows something I don't. 15 Grain for feathers. 466.8 + 5 for nock and insert. Total weight 471. Not bad using your method 50 lb 500. :smileystooges:
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Bruce,
Go lower on brace height if possible and definitely go heavier on point weight. My guess is that your arrows are too stiff.
John
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Brass inserts, steel glue inserts for glue on broadheads. Lots of ways to add weight to carbons.
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Thanks JHansen,
I am going to try that.
Next ,
I like to use turkey feathers,do you see a problem with the use of tail feathers. I had this talk with my friend Mike a few weeks ago. He said he wasn't sure if the tail-feathers would be stiff enugh. What do you think.
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Vermonster13,
Can you tell me where to get the inserts.
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3 Rivers has them last I knew.
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Thanks Vermonster13.
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I will not enter the debate about arrow weight and penetration, but if you are primarily an archer, not a hunter, there are lots of advantages to a lighter arrow. I routinely shoot 3d from the compound stakes and often fling a few arrows at the field archery distances of up to 80 yards. It is all but impossible to do this with a heavy arrow. There seems to be some myth that a bow will fall apart at light arrow weights. Olympic archers routinely shoot hundreds of thousands of shots with light arrows - 6 gpp or so. My current setups are about 7.5 gpp for my modern bow and about 8.5 gpp for my vintage bows. I do use B50 strings, but that is mainly to protect the bow from damage in case of a dry fire.
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Jim/LI
Sorry but not interested in modern day bows.I don't think there is any debate on trad-gang about arrow weight and penetration not at least that I picked up. It mostly is all about how each individual wants to set his or her bow up for hunting shooting what ever thats all, Most Trad shooters I know do hunt including me thanks anyway.
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Ok, but you did post in the Shooters forum, not the hunting Pow Wow forum.
By modern, I meant a bow (recurve or longbow) made in the last 30 or so years. My vintage bows are from the 50's and 60's. I give them a little TLC.
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The Shooters forum is for the mechanics of shooting, whether hunting, 3D or whatever.
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Jim/LI :saywhat: :thumbsup:
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3 Rivers has 50 and 100 grain brass inserts as well as 100 and 125 grain steel broadadapters allowing you to put 350 to 425 grains up front with a broadheade and a mass weight from 620 to 730 grain arrows. 100+ grains at these weights changes the trajectory very little until you get to 30 yds. You can get over 800 grains if you use the carbon express Heritage 13.0 grains per inch shaft or the cabelas out fitter shafts with camo flinish at 13.5 grains per inch. The heritage and the cabelas outfitter shafts are the same.
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Thanks folcon70,
I'm going to go there right now on the web that is.
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I shoot bemans 400 out of a similar set up as yours. They fly like darts. I add 3 grains/inch plastic tubing (available at 3 Rivers, most trad. archery shops)so I'm shooting a 535 grain arrow at a 26.5'draw. Arrows are 28.5". This tubing doesn't affect spine. You can add more weight by inserting 5 or 8 grain/inch tubing. Highly suggest doing this since you don't need to buy new arrows, which will require re-tuning to your bow.
Iowa Bob
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Thanks IowaBob,
You may think this is strange I was just looking at the incerts on 3rivers last night.I had the 3gpi incerts in my shopping cart. if I put the inserts in my arrows they will weigh 535 grain. I just need to make it happin.
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Thanks to all that had input in helping me find the perfect arrow for my bow set-up. I have got the arrow I believe, it shoots like a dart. The arrow is a goldtip 35-55 3 grain weight tube incert. It has a 50 grain brass incert for the tip with 125 grain point. Total weight is 503 grain. I'm shooting 49 lbs I made the 10 gpi goal I was shooting for. Thank again to all. and a special thank to Lancaster archery supply for there help in making the arrow.
Jhansen,
Thanks the arrow length ended up being 26" I did bare shaft shoot wright out of the gate. Rob the owner of L.A.S he suggested 26" the thinking being :clapper: 1/2 " one way or another woudn't make that much difference. It worked out the arrow bare shaft was as sraight as it could be. :pray:
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just wondering wouldn't a tube affect arrow spine
thanks Ralph
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I get these questions all the time and I think the best advice is to shoot as heavy an arrow as you can and still live with the trajectory. The rule of thumb of 10gpp might be a good average but some bows are going to shoot as fast at 12gpp as others do at 8. The way bows work, if you double your arrow weight you only lose 25% of your velocity so unless a target archer is shooting 90 meters and everything in between, the trajectory factor is not a big deal but the shooting qualities of the bow and the penetration gains are....O.L.
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does a tube affect arrow spine anybody?
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No, not the tube itself but the weight of it changes your tuning. If you change ANYTHING in the moving parts expect to have to retune. Even things that don't move but add or subtract mass, like bow quivers, will change the tuning....O.L.
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Like O.L said but I didn't know it effects spine I shot both with and without tubes in the arrows I had made for this bow. I saw no or little differences at 20 yards, maybe 2" low with tubes or so. But spine is the flexibility of the arrow not the weight. So spine, not that I could tell and most of the information I gathered from others while developing this arrow told me tubes do not effect the spine. Three rivers web. sight advertises no effect or little effect. :thumbsup:
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not knowing the dynamics it would seem that with more wt in the middle of the arrow it would flex more and therefore weaken spine,or stiffen without adding wt to tip changing tuning and then having to add more wt to get it to fly i'm asking because i might try in some 55-75s carbons out of my longbow thanks much Ralph
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Ralph,
you need to know what your gaol is in weight. You can get 3 gpi 5 gpi or 8 gpi.
50 g- insert 100 g-insert. Add some weight with knock weights and so on. I think the best advice I can give anyone is to know your limitations. If you are looking for the best arrow flight you can have get all the help you can.
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I have a 50# S Shrew, I probably pull 48#. I'm shooting a 29" CX Heritage 150, that weighs right at 600gr. I have 240gr up front. Is this too much weight? It seems to shoot well and I'm going to limit my shots to 15-20yrds.
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if they fly good Dave it really ought to penetrate well i shoot with 235grs up front with a 33-55 the arrows only weigh 8.6 grs per inch
for a total of 478 grs hope to see what it does on a deer soon.
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deertraks,
That is a good weight. I would like to know do they fly good with blades on them. It comes down to one thing for me. accuracy ,the smaller I miss the better the hit I had.
I just can't say more. If you feel confident and know you have the best arrow bow combination it then is on you. That to me is what traditional hunting is all about. Confidence in your equipment breeds confidence in you, with practice. :notworthy:
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Traditional-Archer, they fly very well with my broadhead. I modified a Muzzy Phantom SS to make it a single bevel and it flies great. When it hits my broadhead target it twists inside the target. Man I love this trad stuff. :thumbsup:
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deertraks,
Thats what I'm talking about.
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O.L,
You are right everything from the ground up can change the way your bow shoots including altitude. And they say shooting traditional equipment is simplifying the art of shooting a bow. :knothead:
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TTT