Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: deermaster1 on July 03, 2007, 08:14:00 PM
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i am confused. i am new to instinctive shooting and trad archery. my bow is being made so i havnt shot yet. when shooting instinctivly, does your mind compansate for the drop at longer ranges 35-50 yards, or does the arrow still drop but is verticly on target, just lower? if so, how does a instinctive shooter practice at longer ranges? do you have to use gaps at longer range? please help. thanks!!
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If you want to be consistant at long range I would highly suggest you learn a conscious aiming system.
Instinctive aiming accurately at long ranges is EXTREMELY hard to do. Sure you might get a few that hit the bullseye but I have yet to see a true instinctive archer group arrows consistantly at longer distances. There may be a few out there that can do it...but I would bet they are rare.
I personally would suggest you learn how to aim using Split Vision if you still want to aim instinctively at closer distances. Those 2 aiming systems are more alike than the others you could choose from.
Sometimes it may help to first learn Point of Aim to learn your gaps.
I personally have learned Point of Aim, Gap, Split Vision and Instinctive Aiming and can pick and choose which one I will use depending on what the shot calls for.
Ray ;)
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I agree with Ray.Doesn't much matter what you use untill you get out past 30 yards.I gap past 30 yards because point on is about 40 yards for me.
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Hey There Michael! I think instinctive shooting works well at almost any range...if you do your part and learn the right way from the start. Understand it may not be the best for shooting groups. So, are you a hunter or target shooter?
Try your best to get a hold of Jay Kidwells book "Instinctive Archery Insights". That will answer many questions for you. Remember you gotta put all the stuff in the book into practice. That's what makes it work!
My 2 cents worth ... ;) ...
... mike ...
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Know your set up and shoot longer distances to develope form as longer distances will magnify
any problems as release or arrow spine being stiff or weak i'm a new trad shooter as well
iv'e shot thousands of arrows in 6 mos.it will come togather with time don't know if anybody else out there does this but i actually have 3 diff anchor points 3 under 10 yds split middle finger corner of mouth 10 to 18 yds 18 to 25 yds index finger corner of mouth this is mainly for yard practice and 3 d hunting i believe instinct will kick in hope this helps Ralph.
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What Black Wolf said. Long range shooting (30-50)
and instinctive don`t go hand in hand.
It can be done. Good luck.
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Instinctive shooting is not that difficult. It just takes practice/conditioning. I refer to it as "conditioned trajectory". If you build a reliable form base all that's left is conditioning your stance to make the longer shots. Not that difficult at all, just takes shooting the bow and time for it to take. ;)
If your left and right suffer, its your form, not your aiming method. Get a bale, back off about 10 feet and work on form; one shot at a time. High/low is merely conditioning.
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Sorry, but I do not agree with the statement"longrange shooting and instinctive do not mix well" I shoot out to 50 yards regularly and would shoot further if I had the space. I look at what I want to hit and I hit it. Simple as that, just takes knowing your bow and arrow set up which means lots of shooting practice at many different ranges.
Danny
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Sure...there will be people who disagree...but in most cases those are the few who can do it. You have to look at the overall picture.
I have yet to see ANY instinctive shooter shoot at long distance at the level that wins archery tournaments in all the years I have competed and studied archery.
There's a reason why Howard Hill suggests that if an archer wants to be a target archer that they learn a different aiming techinique other than instinctive aiming.
There's advantages and disadvantages with every aiming system...and instinctive aiming is at a disadvantage to the other aiming techiniques in regards to long distance shooting where being consistantly accurate is a concern.
Ray ;)
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I am listening Ray- but you mention HHill who did shoot instinctive over 100 yds. And I know people say he had an aiming method, but not according to his closest protege' John Schulz.
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Are you talking target or hunting???? Like Danny Rowan, I also just look at my target and hit it, might be a shade out of the X-ring,but close enough for hunting. I equate it to shooting a basketball, toss up enough and after a while you know it's going to be a swish when the ball leaves your hands and before the ball gets to the rim. Practice with the same set up you are hunting with, groups at known yardage show that you are consistant in your mechanics, spot on single shots at un-known ranges show an ingrained skill set. When I lived in Az, a friend I shot with had a wheelie and liked to shoot 50+ yards, so I got pretty good at the longer ranges, could I win a 3-D shoot??? Not likely hehehe... but the deer and javlina that fell to an arrow launched from 50 yards+ didnt notice.
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Originally posted by KSdan:
I am listening Ray- but you mention HHill who did shoot instinctive over 100 yds. And I know people say he had an aiming method, but not according to his closest protege' John Schulz.
Well, if you read Howard's books and writings he certainly describes an aiming method he used and procribed.
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An instinctive shot happened the first time you loosed an arrow. From that point on, adjustments are made, whether consciously or not, until satisfactory results happen. It is a conditioning process.
According to Bob Wesley, another HH "favorite" protege from Mississippi who became a world champion longbow shooter and teaches "How to hit like Howard Hill," Hill used a point of aim/split vision method of aiming. Wesley uses and teaches that method.
For many of us, improvement in accuracy comes slowly as we work to build a solid shooting foundation/form. Developing the "feel" of proper back tension before the release is the part of the shot that can be elusive. Once that happens, though, the bow arm will stay up and pointed at the target throughout the shot and, if the bow/arrows are tuned properly, windage is dialed in. Then it's a matter of developing the "sight picture" that allows for distance control. That is where point of aim/split vision/gap or "instinctive" shooting come into play.
We all want to be as accurate as possible with our bows and arrows. Some of us are blessed with more natural talent to do so than others. Kinda like comparing an "average Joe" basketball player to Michael Jordan. So, we "average Joe" guys resort to various aiming techniques to get us closer to our goal. We enjoy the heck out of hunting with a bow and want to make sure that when we loose an arrow at a living target that we can place the arrow where it will rsult in a quick, humane kill.
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Dave- I am just fire side chatting here-so I could be out to lunch- but I do not recall any aiming "method" like using something on the bow or arrow as a sight. I understand he spoke of seeing his arrow in his peripheral while seeing the spot he was shooting at- but I call that instinctive- as it still is not using a reference point as some type of measurement. In other words, he did not figure/consider the distance then try to accomodate his bow. He simply shot the bow like others have mentioned they do.
I am not arguing here- just seems like there are those who can shoot without using aiming devices. I can't use an aiming device- I am a RH shooter with left eye dominance- so I can't see down the arrow or anything. I have been shooting the trad for twenty years now, I simply focus on a spot and shoot with decent mechanics. A clicker has made me incredibly consistent. Kind of like my collegiate basketball days-its all feel. When I am practicing regularly- 30 yards is not unreasonable for hunting (6 inch groups), and 40 yards for practice is pretty good. With that said- 25 on in is generally my limit.
Some of you sound like you know more about actual shooting technique- so I am sure there are some better methods to try than mine. Sure appreciate the various viewpoints- some things to try.
Good shooting and hunting
Dan
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Defining labels and names helps in communicating effectively.
Instinctive Aiming is NOT an instinct that is defined in our Biology 101 classes...BUT aiming instinctivly means a bow and arrow can be aimied INSTINCT LIKE...and it doesn't ONLY happen with the first arrow.
Aiming instinctively means the archer is not CONSCIOUSLY using ANY reference points other than the target within their periphial vision to adjust aim. The instinctive archer relies on the SUBCONSCIOUS to make the adjustments using the sight picture, proprioception and muscle memory while the CONSCIOUS mind is completely focused on the target.
Howard Hill could aim that way...but research indicates he primarily used what he called Split Vision for the majority of his shots, which invloves CONSCIOUSLY splitting the archer's vision between the target and the arrow. It's a form of gap shooting that is VERY similar to instinctive aiming.
I am by NO means trying to say instinctive aiming sucks because it definitely doesn't...BUT I am saying that it does have it's advantages and disadvantages...and instinctive aiming DOES NOT have an advantage over the other aiming systems when it comes to long distance shooting in regards to BOTH consistantcy and accuracy.
The only time I can think that aiming instinctively may have an advantage when shooting at long distances is when one shot counts and needs to be shot within a second or two.
Ray ;)
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To all of those who can shoot purely instinctive at what is considered "long range", I wish you were my neighbor so you could help teach me.
I KNOW it can be done.
I can honestly stand beside anyone and hold my own as far as shooting skills,... until about 20-25 yards. After that , on a good day it starts to show that I am beyond my effective range.
It must feel good to watch an arrow arch and spin its way across fifty yards, and hit what you want. And then, put one right next to the first!
Hats off to all who can, and to all who strive for it.
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I don't shoot "purely instinctive". I shoot instinctive archery. Its not a definition, its a style. It merely identifies an aiming method that does not use an accessory, arrow or mark to aim. Its not a webster's thing. If one wants to play with words, they should go back to school. This style of shooting the bow goes back a few years. Its been known as "instinctive" and when one says they shoot instinctive, others who have been around a while know what they're talking about. The rest, well, they try to define the word... :knothead:
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I did fairly well at the Rhinehart 100 shooting out to 38 yds ( according to the wheelie bow persons range finder in front of me,LOL!)
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Just my take on it. Instinctive archery is deveolping the eye/hand/body coordination and incorpoating whatever "references" your mind uses while focusing your attention on the spot to hit, to shoot without a conscious "aiming". OK?
So, a lot of the instictive archers, including howard Hill and Byron Fergusson talk about split vision, or a the tip or line of the arrow in peripheral vision or awareness. And, they say as you develop the skill you become less and less aware of the reference, 'til it is no longer consciously used. But it's in your form and your mental picture as you rivit your attention on the spot, and hit it.
Some start with the a conscious attention to the reference and move to unawareness. Others start without any conscious focus on a reference - just the spot. I think the latter develop instinctive skill faster bcause they do not get tripped up on the reference and "aiming" with it.
That is my personal experience, as i started as a reference shooter, and did not really feel I was making progress 'till I dumped the reference and "zenned" the spot. Use the Force, Luke!
Just try it - it's totally a kick that you can statre at it and own the spot with your arrow.
Yup, "become the arrow".
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'Instinctive Archery'...'Instinctive Aiming' are all defined, which means they have definitions to communicate to people what they mean....and for those that are searching for the meaning of words...they can research those words by using the Webster and/or coming to archery boards such as this one to find out what certain archery related labels or names mean. Sometimes a person has to sift through some garbage to find the truth...but that's a fact of life we all experience from time to time.
There are those that try to redefine it, relabel it or argue that there is no such thing based on semantics...which is ignorant and/or based on insecurities.
The beauty of aiming instinctively is that you learn to nearly empty your mind and completely focus on one spot and trust that your subconscious mind and body will accurately do what it needs to do to hit the bullseye...and when it happens...it's almost like magic ;)
Ray ;)
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Yep... Magic!
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Originally posted by BLACK WOLF:
The beauty of aiming instinctively is that you learn to nearly empty your mind and completely focus on one spot and trust that your subconscious mind and body will accurately do what it needs to do to hit the bullseye...and when it happens...it's almost like magic ;)
Ray ;)
Very well stated. Well, except the "magic" part. :p
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;)
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Good thread- appreciate your attempt to clarify meaning Ray- it makes sense. Also makes sense that the majority would probably do better with some aiming methodology for longer shots.
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I am relatively new to trad shooting and so 30 yds is "long distance" shooting to me. I shoot instinctively(I think), I pick my spot, point my bow and let hand-eye-coordination take over. This works out to about 25 yds, but after that I aim the same way except the spot I focus on is above my intended target/bullseye. That spot gets further above the target as the distance grows. I still aim at my spot the same as if it were a 10 yard shot but the spot adjusts upward based on the distance.
All of this is moot when it comes to hunting. I will not take a shot past 25yds at this point because my accuracy is not as good as my ethics. However with time to practice on form I think I will one day extend my range past this point.
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PSEman,
That sounds like classic "Point of Aim". Focusing on the point instead of the X.
Some describe purely instintive as focusing on the X and nothing else.
To me Gap or Split Vision is just being more or less aware of the space (at the arrow point or at the target) between the X and the point and changing that space depending on where the arrow hits.
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42WLA,
pseman claims he is not looking at his arrow but a spot above the target.
What he is doing is aiming instinctively. He just found a different way of making sure he is adjusting for the longer distances.
He therefore maintains nearly the exact sight picture for every shot in regards to the spot he is focusing on and the references his subconscious is using to make the proper adjustments to the aim.
He's compensating for arrow trajectory by looking at a spot above the target.
Ray ;)
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Exactly Black Wolf, I think you described it better than I did. I have found that when I shoot longer yardage, if I focus on the "X" that my left/right accuracy remains pretty good but I tend to shoot low. So common sense told me to aim at a spot above my intended target.
This works pretty good for me when my form is good. But being fairly new at the traditional game, my form is still very much a work in progress.
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I guess instictive is close to how I shoot.Being very farsighted I can't really use an arrow point or anything on the bow for reference consistantly.Really wish I could because as distances get farther being able to gap or use your point would be a much more consistant way of shooting.Just does not work for my eyes and the low anchor that I use.I will tell you this..when someone quits worry about not looking at the arrow and just uses what is stuck out there in front of them the best they can there shooting improves in almost every case. :) jmo
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Originally posted by BLACK WOLF:
42WLA,
pseman claims he is not looking at his arrow but a spot above the target.
What he is doing is aiming instinctively. He just found a different way of making sure he is adjusting for the longer distances.
He therefore maintains nearly the exact sight picture for every shot in regards to the spot he is focusing on and the references his subconscious is using to make the proper adjustments to the aim.
He's compensating for arrow trajectory by looking at a spot above the target.
Ray ;)
Perhaps I should not have used the word "point". It is not the arrow I meant but a "point" downrange.
Point of aim vs. point of impact.
(http://www.stavacademy.co.uk/mimir/images/archery17.gif)
It seems everybody defines thing differently. I tend to go back to the early texts.
As a matter of fact. In the 1st editon of the Archer's Bible, Fred Bear explains the different shooting styles very clearly.
It's fun to argue about though. :)
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42WLA,
That's a great pic demonstrating Point of Aim.
Just for clarification...Point of Aim involves looking at the arrow tip and placing it on the Point of Aim that is predetermined for that particular distance which is different than what pseman is doing.
Ray ;)
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Instinctive shooting is not limited to a certain yardage, or a single subconscious sight picture.
Sure, you can learn to shoot instinctive at long distances......just depends on how bad you want it.
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I believe instinctive aiming can work very well out to fairly long ranges. By long I mean out to near the archer's point blank/ point on range. Near point blank range the tip of the arrow comes so nearly into the line of sight it is impractical and unwise to try to ignore it.
Some archers have short point on ranges, down to 30 yards and less. But a good many of us have long ones: 50, 60 and longer with a long draw and efficient tackle. With my longbows and 500 grain wooden arrows my range is 55 to 65 yards. With a recurve and 400 grain arrows it is over 70 yards, and I have heard of 90 yards for fellows who use carbon shafts. Under these circumstances there is little choice about shooting the short and middle ranges instinctively. Gaps may exceed 5 feet at 40 yards or so. The point of the arrow may cover a point 12 or so yards in front of the target. Your conscious mind cannot deal with that very effectively. But the subconcious can, with sufficient good practice.
Here in Northern California we often shoot open 3D and field archery to the full 80 yards of the field course. Half the targets may be 45 yards and more. Most folks gap shoot or use another system for at least the longer half, but not all do. And there are some who can shoot these events really well mostly by the instinctive method. There is one fellow I have shot with at two events this year. Hereabouts the top possible score is 924 and the compound pros go over 900 at a 42 target 2 arrow event with an 11 point spot. 500 is a good traditional tackle score and some top hands go over 600 even with a longbow and woodies and occasionally a point of aim shooter goes over 700 with a recurve.
The fellow I am thinking of shoots take down hunting recurves of around 50 pounds and aluminum hunting weight arrows. He shoots with the split finger hold, cants the bow and says he shoots purely instinctively except at 70 to 80 yards where his arrow tip is nearly on target. He doesn't even want to think or hear about gaps, for fear he will start to notice them in his sight picture.
In the two events I shot with him he went over 700 points and in the last he was over 750. During the second half of it he shot over 400. It was amazing to see and I was so jealous I could have spit. But upon reflection I am pleased and inspired to know that much more is possible than I have so far achieved.