Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: SHOOTO8S on November 07, 2005, 10:37:00 PM
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Guy's I put together a short vid of a dozen or so shots, with a few shooting the FITA bow...hopefully to show than the basic archery form is all the same..whether your shooting a self bow to a full blown FITA rig.
video (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/rod.wmv)
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of course you are a skilled archer.
I am just curious where you anchor with your barebow bows. It kind of looks like you have a "floating" anchor, maybe it is just the video but it appears to be off of your face.
While it appears you have a good dynamic release, in one of those shots it looks like you come forward to find your anchor. For most people coming forward causes a colapse in back tension and negatively effects the release.
Also, do you shot point on or gunbarrel. I asked because it looks like you have a high anchor
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Thanks Rod, that was great......
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"I am just curious where you anchor with your barebow bows."
Wayne, when using a side of face anchor...I'm using a deep hook on the string and middle finger anchored on a molar tooth...with some of the shot clips being a few years old, some are a corner of the mouth anchor.
I changed from my normal corner of mouth anchor, for the very reason you mentioned.......when I drew the bow to a proper line...I needed to come forward to find my anchor, then increase back tension...I finally bit the bullet and decided to move my anchor farther back.
I shoot gap
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Great video Rod! Really appreciate you sharing it. Super consistent form.
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"I shoot GAP" :scared: ;)
You are right good shooting is good shooting, but I still dont know how you hit any critters holding that long ;) ;) :D
It is nice to put a face with the name.Thanks for taking the time and posting it for everyone to see. :thumbsup:
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Originally posted by swampbuck:
I notice everybody has the same ending hand position,
coinsidence??????
Maybe cause its all of the same person?
Yohon....yeah...I hear ya, ....when he got to anchor, the suspence was killing me!!!
In all seriousness.......Thanks Rod....looking machine like in the clips.
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LOL guess I was lookin at the shot more than the person LOL Thanx again
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Rod,
Top notch, of course I've seen it in person.
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Rod,
With all due respect to your talent, it appears that you are dropping your bow arm. Can you elaborate on why this is not effecting your shooting? Thanks.
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Man, how can you hold the bow up so straight. :eek:
Good clip. And yes, very consistant. And consistancy is what it takes.
Just to confirm, and perhaps for an explaination I can pass on; please explain why your bow goes out and down upon release.
I say it's follow through and due to back tension.
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Thanks Rod.
Did you make the change before or after the 2004 worlds?
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I don't care if he floats his anchor, drops his bow arm slightly, or spits on his arrow before each shot. It obviously works for him. :thumbsup: We should all wish we were good enough to be a World Champion. Thanks Rod!
John
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Don't get me wrong folks. I am not an archer of his ability. I am making an observation and asking a question, that's how I learn.
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Thanks guys!
Bill....I always enjoy shooting with you and other shooters of your caliber...brings out one's best game!
SK38.....how many times have you heard...on release...do nothing ? I dont try and control the bow, preferring to simply let the bow shoot....if you "do nothing" the bow will move forward on release, with the weight of the bow exerting itself on the bow hand well after the arrow has left the bow and continue moving its self to the left(right hand shooter) due to the inabilty to ever have the bow hand directly in the center of the bows power stroke and the back tension in the bow arm side of the back.... the key is to maintain back tension until the arrow clear the bow, then the bow doesn't need any help in doing its job.....clear as mud huh? :)
Lost Hawg ...hope the above answers your question
Wayne...I changed anchors after the 05 worlds....after fighting with an anchor that was un-conductive to a good line....I wish I had made the change years ago!
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Thanks for the reply.
I thought it was a result of your "pushing" toward the target to maintain back tension. Obviously once the arrow is clear the bow can do what ever it wishes without effecting arrow flight.
I asked the question because when I run my shot if I feel my arm drop I will see an effect on arrow flight, ussually low. If I don't try to correct it, on the bail right away, it can quickley become habit for me.
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Sounds about like what I said except a little more expansive. :thumbsup:
Follow through is about the most forgotten parts of the shot.
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SK38... Ask questions! I surely do......I asked the same questions, the first time I really watched a world class shooter in action....the bow arm dropping went against all I understood at that time, then it was explained that when using bone structure and back tension to shoot the bow, the object was to remove any unneeded tension in not only the release side , but bow arm as well...and it takes tension in the forearm to keep the bow from moving AFTER the limbs return to brace.
I forgot to add.....Ok on the floating anchor question...each shot there was a defininte anchor point.....I was trained to establish a solid and easy to repeat anchor point....not to anchor hard against the face or lay into the string....reason being....if your using muscle tension to lay into the string hard....what happens on release?? Often the head will move..sometimes slightly, sometimes the head will move a good deal..breaking concentration on target and often the bow hand will follow the eyes...before the arrows clears the bow.
The object in posting the clip, is not an attempt to suggest anyone use my style of shooting, but to maybe explain some of the dynamics involved(I suck at explaining ) and perhaps show that basic archery form is about muscles and alignment,,whether shooting upright or leaning over and canting a bunch...its still about getting a good line!
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I appreciate your sharing your video and taking the time, and having the patience, to deal with the questions. So much is said about what is perfect form. More should be said about perfect execution. Thanks Rod.
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Originally posted by SHOOTO8S:
I forgot to add.....Ok on the floating anchor question...each shot there was a defininte anchor point.....I was trained to establish a solid and easy to repeat anchor point....not to anchor hard against the face or lay into the string....reason being....if your using muscle tension to lay into the string hard....what happens on release?? Often the head will move..sometimes slightly, sometimes the head will move a good deal..breaking concentration on target and often the bow hand will follow the eyes...before the arrows clears the bow.
After shooting with Rod and having a discussion about this, I made my anchor even more "ethereal"...it just barely touches my anchor point now and it's away. Really minimized the negative effects I was sometimes getting on a really "hard" anchor.
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Rod, but we're having so much fun disecting it. If you don't tear it open, how will you know what's inside?
So, with all your answering to our questions, perhaps it will help us to better understand the shot process. ??
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Originally posted by SHOOTO8S:
... and perhaps show that basic archery form is about muscles and alignment,,whether shooting upright or leaning over and canting a bunch...its still about getting a good line!
Yep, couldn't agree more. We tried our best to hammer that down on the form pics thread. Proper alignment can be taken with you to many positions, shot angles, and cant angles.
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The problem is that Rod's form is really good and his points of explanation are the best I have heard.
Unfortunately, when a person varies from that form and shot execution it simply hurts accuracy potential. Of course there are various things one could do differently than Rob and still shoot well, such as shoot faster or slower, or cant the bow; but such things as trying to hold the bow up after the shot, using a "hard" anchor, etc. can only hurt ultimate accuracy potential. Take a look at some of the videos on this site of Howard Hill and some of his "old time" buddies. Except for the canting and speed of shooting, their form looks very, very similar to Rod's.
That said, I have personally witnessed people who have horrible form by any standards and who are plenty accurate enough at unknown distances out to 25 yards or so to be very effective at hunting, and even shoot very respectable 3D scores. However, using Rod's textbook form, or something very close, is surely going to make it easier for anyone who is trying to improve his/her shooting.
Don
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Is after the shot bow movement affected by the type of grip you use on the bow? It seems like low wrist pushes down more from the vid. Maybe that is just my impression. Also the angle your left arm is to your body?
I never thought about how hard the anchor is. That is something new to think on.
Is it harder to become reasonably proficient with a dead release or a more fluid one? I've been trying for a dead one because I can kinda tell my brain to do that and it will. The fluid one seems harder to keep consistent. Sometimes it works great.....but is it harder to get good at it? thanks that vid is a good topic for discussion.
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........this is a great form video--thanx--Mark
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Rod,
Wanted to let you know the string is working well. Shot a bear with it this October.
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Rod,
Terrific video. It has made it a lot easier to visualize the change I am trying to make in my release, though I know it will be a LONG time before I can feel as natural as you look!
When you shot 297 on a 300 round, what was your set-up? Bow, weight, arrows, etc.?
Mike
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Sorry ...haven't had much compter time lately
Hey Bill ...glad the strings is working for you...congrats on your Bear!
Walter...yeah we gonna have to go hunting a little before season's over...my apoligies, that we haven't already been hunting.
Hi Mike....how are you and that sweetheart one pc ACS getting along? It was a mistake letting O.L. get that one back...lol
I was shooting my 3D, hunting and target bow...ACS-CX 3pc 41@28 Carbon Express CXL 150's @32'' and have since swapped to Super Carbon 30-45's
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Just caught this clip. Where have I been? Curious as to what your gap is (20yds) and how much arrow is in front of the bow?
Thanks
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I need this back to the top so it is easier to find as I watch it every day!
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Outstanding.
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Q: How do you shave 5 inches off of your 15yd group in 2 minutes or less???
A: Watch Rod in this video!
Thanks very much Rod. I'm going to stick with this sport.
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Nice shooting Rod, the key to every aspect of your shooting form is that you're relaxed in control and repeat the shot the same way every time.
Thanks for sharing.
P.S what poundage are you shooting?
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2004 IFAA world longbow champ
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Steve....the black ACS-CX is 41@28 and the FITA rig is [email protected] the clips shooting the CX were taken a few weeks after my 04 shoulder surgery...I was far from relaxed ..lol
akoutdoors....do stick with this great sport!
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Thanks for bringing this ttt. It is part of my practice routine.
Rod, Thanks for sharing your "secrets". Where can I learn more about "lining up" and using my skeletal system?
Brian
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Larry Skinner has an excellant book and video regarding this. I can't remeber if links are allowed here, but do a google search for;
Archery Shot Execution: A Total Muscle Control Approach by Larry Skinner
It is more directly related to target recurves but as Rod's video shows, good form (and alignment) carry over.
Scott
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The owners manual that comes with a formaster training devise is quite specific about proper alighnment LOL so much so that a simplton like me had to read it a couple times to understand the big words LOL.....on the plus side it does have illustrations to help with understanding.I may be able to help ya come up with one just PM me and I,ll look around if your interested.
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The Skinner book that Scooter mentioned, seemed good from the quick scan threw it I did and Like Swampbuck says the manual that comes with the formaster is very detailed.
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Rod -
TTT
How long do you actually take between arrows?
Are you rehashing just what happened?
Are you thinking of all positives bow arm , anchor timing etc for the next arrow?
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Butts....I practice in stages....one day its all back tension, another day bowarm etc.. When I'm actually only shooting groups or for score....I only think about aiming....hopefully I have all the other stuff down to the point , the subconscious takes care of it and I can only think about aiming....but I do have a day for timing...time from the beginning of draw to anchor and time from anchor to release and the timing of each shot..ideally you should give your muscles a minute or two between shots
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Rod,
I've been using back tension on every shot and every shot is better. I'm also working out the kinks in my deep hook and I'm realizing good, much more consistent results there too.
I'd like to focus on bow arm technique. When I just let the bow do what it wants to it usually ends up on the floor. The arrow goes where it needs to be though LOL. I've been looking at torquing the bow, high middle and low wrist, firm and loose grip but I haven't found "my" grip yet. Please describe your grip and your attitude about it through the shot process.
Thanks,
Brian
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Gents,
Several months after watching Rod's video, the best advice I can give anyone is to first develop a thorough understanding of the basics of archery form (you can do this by researching this website or reading the proper literature) practice this form until it becomes second hand (again using tips from Trad Gang) and then film yourself shooting a bow. Film yourself in a variety of different shooting situations. A suggestion is to first shoot at the bail a few feet away without worrying about hitting anything but the butt and then film yourself shooting at least 20 yards from the target while shooting strictly for accuracy. When you wind the tape back and observe how you shoot in different situations it could be an enlighting experience - at least it was for me yesterday - and you may see your form change when trying to hit something. I'm confident the form errors I observed and plan to correct will later translate into better shooting and clean kills.
Rod - Thanks for taking the time to post this video and answering my and other's questions!
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Since this keeps popping back up....I have a few clips, with a new bow....anyone interested in seeing them?
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Hmmmm...Reckon That bow might be....Lets see 'em Rod
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Yes we want to see them!!
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Always interested in seeing a champion shoot Rod...put em up please!
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I'm interested,I recommend this video often and look at it myself every once in awhile too.Kinda slumpin right now down into the 240's so I figure it,s time to get back to basics
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Rod, great video. When the fingers of my release hand land on the top of my collar bone my arrow is in the bull. It's a great feeling. Thanks for sharing.....Van
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Thank you, Rod.
There is a lot to learn in that short video.
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TTT Notice no head movement on Rod. Brings the arrow to the anchor not the anchor to the arrow.
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Rod, thanks for the great string! They are the best! Earlier today I posted a thread on form. So this is great timing. If you are going to post other videos of shooting is it too much to ask to film from behing you looking over your shoulder? I would like to see the alignment of your body to the target.
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I want to thank you for sharing your technique with us. Yes, a picture is truly worth a thousand words. Now I am going out and work exclusively on using my back muscles. I liked your idea of using a building block approach to better your shooting form. Pete