Post by: 4est trekker on October 27, 2009, 10:51:00 PM
We're going to make a cheap, solid, and good shooting "board bow" (i.e. bow made from board lumber rather than a stave or billets.) This bow will certainly be overbuilt by most standards, in that it will be very wide. This will create a bow that is forgiving of any mistakes you might make and/or flaws in the wood. Even if you’re the poster child for Murphy’s Law, you oughta wind up with a hunting weight bow that’ll render an unsuspecting gobbler as dead as the next stick with a string. This won't require much money or time. In fact, you can buy the wood for $12 on Friday afternoon and be shootin’ the bow on Saturday night. Plus, you'll only need a handful of tools you probably already have or can get access to pretty easily. Well, enough talkin’! Let's get started.
ROUND 1: WOOD
You first stop should be a local lumber yard (Menard’s, Home Depot, Lowe’s, local hardwood supplier, etc.) Head for the hardwood section and locate the RED OAK lumber.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2715.jpg)
Ignore the walnut, cherry, mahogany, pine, aspen, birch, maple, etc. Just RED OAK. Next, as Tim Baker so plainly stated in the Traditional Bowyer’s Bible (TBB) in his article on board bows, you need to pick a board that has PERFECTLY STRAIGHT GRAIN ON ONE FACE. That grain should run from one end of the board to the other without snaking, waving, running off the edge, etc. Again, you just need ONE face to exhibit this quality, not both. And don’t even worry about the way the grain looks on the sides. Also, be sure you find a CLEAR BOARD (i.e one that has no knots). Lastly, I would hesitate to use a board that exhibits two or more distinct colors, as that second color most often means that board contains heartwood and sapwood. If the transition between the two woods is situated right (or wrong, depending on your outlook on life), the bow can fail there.
You’ll need a 1”x4”x7’ board (which in actuality will be ¾”x3 ½”x7’, and probably come in 8’ lengths, not 7’.). So, start in that stack. Here’s what you’re looking for:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2721.jpg)
Here’s what you’re NOT looking for:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2716.jpg)
Here's what you're REALLY not looking for. If you drew this sucker back it'd give you a knockin' you wouldn't soon forget!
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2720.jpg)
If you can’t find a suitable 1”x4”x7’, look in the 1”x6” or 1”x8” pile. Still no luck? Try the next store or come back when their next shipment of lumber comes in.
Now, just one more thing. You want to make sure that you have an appropriate ratio between the early grown (porous part of the end grain) and the late growth (solid part of the end grain.) You want a higher percentage of late growth per annual growth ring. This picture should help. The black line follows the early growth while the green lines indicate the late growth region of a single growth ring.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2845.jpg)
Be patient! Out of the entire stack of lumber shown above I came home with just two keepers.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2729.jpg)
I decided on this board for the build-along. It’s 1”x4”x7’ and has a slight reflex to it.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2721.jpg)
All for this round...see ya next time!
Post by: 4est trekker on October 27, 2009, 11:01:00 PM
We’re going to build a 68” pyramid bow with a target weight of 50#@26”/55#28”. It's called a pyramid because the limbs will be shaped like a pyramid when finished. This type of bow is efficient, easy to make from boards, and is VERY easy to tiller. In fact, sometimes they need little or no tillering after the bow is profiled to shape.
Your first task is mark the face with the straightest grain as “back.” This part will eventually face away from you when you shoot the bow and will need the straightest grain possible to maintain its structural integrity as it stretches in tension at full draw. Mark the other face as “belly.” This side will face you when you shoot the bow. Now, on the BELLY side, mark your stave as in the picture below. The section marked “Tip Overlay” is optional and will be described at a later date.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2746.jpg)
Still working on the belly side, find the vertical center of the 68” section and square a line across the board. Mark this with a “C” for center. Then, square a line at 3” and 5” from both sides of your centerline. I mark the 3” lines with extra dots so I can keep everything straight in my little pea brain. Your stave should now look like this picture (minus the green lines running horizontally along the stave, which we’ll get to shortly).
NOTE: As outlined later in this thread, I would now recommend an 8" riser section to give you more working limb and a better look. To accommodate the 8"riser, mark the center (C) as normal, then draw a line 2" and 4" from either side of it. The two lines 2" from center denote the end of the limbs' front profile fade (i.e. the "pyramid" shape) while the lines 4" from center indicate where the ends of the 8" riser block will be. All other dimensions and procedures can remain the same.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2750.jpg)
Now, mark the horizontal center of the stave on your center line. If using a 1”x4”, this mark will be at 1 ¾”. (Remember, the 1”x4” is really ¾”x3 ½”). Now, mark 1 ½” above and below this mark to give you a total of 3”. Now, do the same thing on the vertical lines located 3” to either side of your center line (the ones I marked with dots). Connect these two lines along these marks as in the picture above.
Now, at both ends of this 68” section, find the exact center of the board, which again will be 1 ¾” from either side assuming the board is true. (Check just to be sure!) Now, put a mark 1/4” to either of this mark, which will give you a 1/2" width overall at the tips. Next, connect these marks with the lines your drew between the dotted lines. Here’s a picture of what that’ll look like:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2748.jpg)
Now, here’s a picture of how to do it. Just clamp a straight edge along these two marks. These horizontal lines now represent the outline of your bow.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2747.jpg)
Now cut off the tip overlay and riser sections from the end of the board, leaving just the 68” section. Cut along these profile lines on this section using a band saw, jigsaw, or handsaw. Be sure to LEAVE YOUR MARK! You’ll trim it down to the line later. By the way, the bandsaw in the picture is a cheapie Delta benchtop model that does the trick. If you have a bigger model, great. If not, buy yourself a new 1/2 blade with about 7 teeth per inch and get your fingers out of the way!
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2756.jpg)
Clean the mating surfaces of the riser block and bow belly with acetone (fingernail polish remover) to remove all the oils. This is kinda’ overkill, as red oak isn't that oily. But, it certainly doesn't hurt and is a force of habit for me.
Once the acetone is dry, spread a good layer of Titebond III on both surfaces, line the ends of the riser up with the lines marked “Future End of the Glue-On Riser,” and clamp it up. Please use Titebond III. It’s tough as nails, moisture resistant, and cheap. The kid at Menard’s might tell you Titebond II and Titebond III are the same thing, but he’d change his mind in a heartbeat after a broken bow relocates his nose while staring down a trophy buck in a drizzling rain!
The next part is optional. You can choose to add a glue-on recurved tips if you’d like, or you can just skip it and not worry about it. It’s a technique that Tim Baker wrote about in the TBB. If you’d like to try it, cut the tip overlays apart and clean them with acetone. Now, mark a line across the BACK of the bow 6” from the end of each tip. Clean this area with acetone and then put a few pieces of masking tape starting at the 6” mark as shown in the picture below.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2760.jpg)
This will prevent glue from getting all over the back of your bow. (You’ll be cutting off a good portion of the belly of the bow later, so you didn’t need to do this when gluing on the riser block.) Now lather some TBIII on both surfaces and clamp.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2761.jpg)
Then, let the whole shootin’ match dry overnight, as in the picture below:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2765.jpg)
That’s all for Round 2. Be back later for the next part!
Post by: Dave Bulla on October 27, 2009, 11:10:00 PM
Post by: Greg Owen on October 27, 2009, 11:15:00 PM
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on October 27, 2009, 11:28:00 PM
Post by: Over&Under on October 27, 2009, 11:48:00 PM
Looking forward to the next installment....
(even saved this thread to my favorites so I can reference it later)
Thanks!
Post by: 4est trekker on October 28, 2009, 12:00:00 AM
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on October 28, 2009, 12:06:00 AM
Post by: SteveL on October 28, 2009, 01:13:00 AM
Thanks! for the the time and effort to put this together.
Post by: YankeeRedneck on October 28, 2009, 04:52:00 AM
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on October 28, 2009, 01:24:00 PM
What other kinds of woods will work for this type of bow?
How do you determine what your projected draw weight will be and adjust for that?
Example: narrower limbs, thinner limbs or vice versa.
Can this type of bow be made any shorter for kids or just someone who likes a shorter bow?
How will it effect it if I back it with snake skin?
Just a few questions.. LOL
Kris
Post by: Jesse Peltan on October 28, 2009, 02:55:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on October 28, 2009, 05:39:00 PM
You can use other woods such as hickory, ash, red oak, etc. I'm just sticking with red oak here since it's easily obtainable and can provide those following this thread with a predictable bow (which by the way will be 50#@26"/55#@28").
You were right about narrowing and/or thinning the limbs. This bow will be uniform in thickness throughout its length (minus the fades), and the limbs will taper uniformly. Narrowing the limbs uniformly can lower poundage, and vice versa. Thinning the limbs can lower poundage, and vice versa. I'll try to cover this in later posts.
Yeah, you can shorten this bow up. My turkey bow of this style is 64" in length and pulls 44#@26". My son's bow (which I posted under "A Boy and His Bow") is also of this style but is not much over 48 inches. Generally, as you shorten the bow up you'll want to widen the limbs at the fades to minimize set and string follow. I'll bet tons of folks on this site have made pyramid bow. Maybe we could get a thread going with specs for pyramid bows so folks can have a running start at hitting their target weight and drawlength. Thoughts?
Snake skins will help protect the back from the elements, although I've never experienced an appreciable increase in draw weight when a bow is backed with them.
All for now. Hope to post two or three "Rounds" tonight!
Post by: stickmonkey on October 28, 2009, 05:44:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on October 28, 2009, 06:21:00 PM
Well, here’s what the whole package should look like after you unclamp it.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2781.jpg)
Note that the riser goes on the belly and the recurved tip overlays (if you’re doing them) go on the back. If you added the overlays, you first need to roughly trim them flush with the sides of the bow as in the following picture:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2785.jpg)
Remember the tape you added to prevent the glue from smearing? Here’s the nice clean result:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2784.jpg)
Next, you need to true up the edges of the bow down to your mark (which you left when cutting it out, remember?) I use a Stanley Surform rasp, although a block plane, long file, or even sandpaper wrapped around a flat piece of wood will work. You want to make sure the sides end up square to the back and belly and that it is perfectly straight along it’s length. Here’s a picture to help:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2786.jpg)
THE NEXT STEP IS NECESSARY ONLY IF YOU ARE ADDING RECURVED TIPS!
Now it’s time to shape the recurved tips. Your first step here is to shape the upper (back of the bow) profile. I made a very simple jig using a French curve as shown in the picture below (I would be happy to e-mail you this jig, along with the fade out jig on page two in PDF format. Just send me a PM with your e-mail included.) The jig need only be accurate on the top side (back of the bow side), which is up in the picture. You will trim the belly side later using a different jig. The recurved tip should gradually fade from the straight line of the bow’s back to the graceful curve at the tip. No abrupt changes or the bow will fail. Just study the picture and use your eyeball to judge the transition. Sure wouldn’t hurt to do a couple of tests on some scrap boards just to be sure you’ve got your ducks in a row! (Note: At this point, I know a lot of you are thinking one of two things: (1) “68 inches is too long for a recurve,” or 2) “Those are reflexed tips, not recurved tips.” You’re both right. By most standards, they’re actually abruptly reflexed tips.)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2790.jpg)
Now trace the profile along the top (back of the bow), remove the jig, and cut to shape using your bandsaw, jigsaw, or coping saw. Remember to LEAVE YOUR MARK! When first cut, it should look like the following picture. Notice the little bump at the transition between the glue-on tip and the back of the bow, as detailed in the second picture. You want to leave yourself some wood there, as cutting into the back of the bow will create a headache (figuratively and possibly literally!)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2791.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2793.jpg)
I like to use a small rasp/file combo with one flat side and one round side to take the tips down to the mark. I finish it off using a sharp knife as a scraper to remove all tool marks. If I’m in a hurry (which is not a good thing when building a bow, but is my usual mode of operation) I use a sanding drum that I chuck up in my cheapie drill press. You'll notice the grain isn't straight on the curved tip anymore, but that's okay. These will be doing very little work and are part of a laminated section, which will naturally be stronger.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2794.jpg)
Be back next time for Round 4: Shaping the Side Profile. Thanks for following!
Post by: 4est trekker on October 28, 2009, 07:23:00 PM
Now it’s time to shape the side profile (i.e cut the limbs to thickness.) This is the only quasi-difficult part of the build-along, although minimal woodworking skills tempered with PATIENCE will give you success!
For a 50#@26”/55#@28” bow at 68 inches in length, the thickness of each limb should be 15/32”. (If you want a bow that’s heavier, make the thickness a full ½”. If you want a bow that's lighter, you can take off wood later, and so stick with 15/32". In any case, we’ll get to tillering to your intended draw weight/length later.)
Here’s a simple principle to keep in mind: In general, when you double the WIDTH of a piece of wood it will be twice as strong. If you double the THICKNESS of the wood it will be eight times as strong. So, you have more room for error when trimming the front profile (i.e. side tapers) than when shaping the side profile (i.e. limb thickness). Go slow, and as Norm Abram says, “Measure twice, cut once!”
Here’s a gauge I made to mark the limb thickness. Nothing fancy:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2841.jpg)
You run the inside of the notch against the back of the bow while holding a sharp pencil or extra fine point marker against the edge of the jig. You don’t want a really fat line, as this allows more possibility for error. This jig will allow you to draw an even line 15/16” from the back of the bow. (Note: Make sure your jig is no wider than 1/2” in thickness as it can create accuracy problems when tracing along the curved edge of the recurved tips, if you’re doing those.) I mark both sides of each limb. Here’s the jig in action:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2806.jpg)
You want to stop the line about an inch shy of the edge of the glue-on riser. You don’t have to be exact.
Next, you’ll need to build yourself a fade-out jig. As before, I used a French curve and made sure the transition between the 15/32” mark and the start of the fade-outs was very subtle and smooth. (Please note that you want the bow at full thickness at the point where the limbs are full width, which is right along the original line you marked 3” off of center before doing the glue-up. This is NOT aesthetically pleasing to most, but it is easy and ensures there's plenty of wood in the area that a lot of first bows fail.) I usually start the curve of the fades approximately 1½” from the edge of the glue-on riser. This ensures that the bow will not take a great deal of set here (i.e. permanent deflection), which would be manifested greatly at the tips of the bow. Here’s some pictures of the jig and the layout line:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2807.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2808.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2809.jpg)
I put two marks along the side profile lines. The one closest to the riser tells me where the fade-outs will begin. The one closest to the tips is 1” from the other mark and tells me to start squaring the board up on the edge of the riser block as opposed to the edge of the bow’s limbs. This sounds confusing, but you’ll understand when you start pushing the bow through the saw (if you’re using a bandsaw). If you cut the fade-outs while holding the board flat along the bow limb’s edge, your fade-outs would come out crooked, because the bow’s limbs are tapered and will lift the riser block up off of the cutting table. I won’t say anymore about that, other than it’ll probably make itself clear when you get to cutting it out. Here’s my marks:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2811.jpg)
Because my bandsaw is so small, I have to add an auxiliary table to give me enough space to lay the rise block against when it comes time to cut the fades. I just make a cut several inches into a scrap piece of FLAT plywood, MDF, etc. and clamp it to my table. Here’s the get-up:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2819.jpg)
If using a bandsaw, make sure the table is square to the blade (which again, should be brand new or close to it.) Starting at the TIP of each limb with the waste side (belly side) facing inward toward the saw, cut the sucker out! You want it oriented that way so you have plenty of room for the board to clear when you maneuver it through the fade-out cuts. Go slow and give the saw plenty of time to clear the wood. When you get to that mark 1” tipside of the beginning of the fade-outs, remember to VERY CAREFULLY tip the board back toward you and rest it squarely on the riser block as you finish the fade-out cuts. As always, LEAVE YOU MARK! If you’re not sure of your bandsaw skills, leave a little more than your mark. You can’t put wood back! If all goes well, here’s what you’ll end up with:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2816.jpg)
If you don’t have access to a bandsaw, check out page 12 for a method for shaping the side profile of the bow using a few simple hand tools and a little elbow grease!
That’s all for Round 4! The next step is truing up the side profile and checking the initial tiller.
Post by: 4est trekker on October 28, 2009, 07:37:00 PM
Round 5: Truing Up the Side Profile and Checking the Initial Tiller
Now it’s time to true up the thickness of each limb by bringing them down to your thickness mark (which you remembered to leave, right?). I do that by using a Surform rasp, a round and flat rasp/file combination, a flat-edged drawknife and hunting knife used as scrapers, and sandpaper. I use calipers set to 15/16” to gauge the thickness of the entire limb, slowly removing wood until the entire limb (save for the fade-out region) is uniform in thickness. The fade-outs are trued up to the guide lines since the calipers would be useless here. Once the fades are close, I use my fingers to feel them and make any adjustments my eyes missed. Here’s some pictures of the tools and the process, including some of my 3 year old son's laying on the floor:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2820.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2859.jpg)
Ignore the fact that in this picture the handle is already profiled to shape. I took the picture out of order :)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2858.jpg)
When you've gotten the limbs to a consistent 15/16" thickness and have the fades trued up, it’s time to round over the edges of each limb. I like to use a file to break the edge and get it roughly rounded, and then I take a strip of sandpaper and work it back and forth like a shoe shiner uses a rag. Once I get it to about the radius of a pea or a pencil, I sand lightly with the grain to remove the sanding marks. I really like those 3M foam sanding blocks for that task, especially after they've been used and broken in a bit. One final note: I like to round the edges about 1" into the riser block on the back of the bow. I've had a couple of bows blow here when I didn't do that. Theoretically the bow should not be bending here anyway, but when the back undergoes tension it goes on a wild hunt for the weakest point in the limb, and the pressure could creep its way all the way back into the riser my. Just my $.02.
Alright, it's time to see if that stick in your hand works anything like a bow! We need to check the initial tiller on the tillering tree using a tillering string. (If you don’t have a tillering tree and string, search this site. There are some great references for building your own.) Here’s a picture of the initial tiller:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/FirstTillerCheck.jpg)
Well, the left limb is a little bit stronger/stiffer than the right limb. Actually, that’s exactly what I was hoping for. (That's sounds like I'm covering a mistake, but really I'm not :bigsmyl: ) I tried as much as possible to get both limbs to an even and uniform thickness. However, I almost always make a slight error, just enough to render one limb slightly stronger than the other. (Search "positive tiller" on this sight for a description of why this is often a good thing.) Suffice it to say, this bow will most likely draw evenly along both limbs when drawn in the hand if I make the stronger limb the bottom limb. We’ll just have to see! If for some reason your bow looks perfect at this point, good for you. We’ll change that later on :biglaugh:
NOTE: I would truly suggest making one of Eric Krewson's tillering gizmos. It is simple, effective, and will help produce a finely tillered bow. Please not that it will NOT work on the outer third of the bow's limbs if you've added the reflexed limb tips. Click the link below to view his thread on making and using one.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001047#000000
That’s all for Round 5. See ya’ soon. Again, thanks for following!
Post by: dutchwarbow on October 28, 2009, 07:53:00 PM
amazingly clean work, great!
Nick
Post by: Art B on October 28, 2009, 07:55:00 PM
"However, I almost always make a slight error, just enough to render one limb slightly stronger than the other."
If you will check and see how your boards "stands in the tree" then you will always know which limb is most likely going to be the strongest (trunk end). That's the very first thing I do before laying out a bow. ART
Post by: 4est trekker on October 28, 2009, 08:51:00 PM
So, if the trunk end is stronger, then perhaps I haven't been making errors like I thought, eh? Well, I wouldn't give myself that much credit! :biglaugh:
Post by: 4est trekker on October 28, 2009, 09:04:00 PM
Post by: Igor on October 28, 2009, 09:22:00 PM
I appreciated all the work that goes into the build along process.
thanks
><>
Glenn
Post by: 4est trekker on October 28, 2009, 11:07:00 PM
NOTE: Please see the update later in this thread that describes how to make a more aesthetically and ergonomically-pleasing handle. While quite functional, many find this one uncomfortable and hard to tune arrows with.
I make the handle ¾” wide at its center, if not just a touch more. You might be able to find a lid, pot, or bucket that fits the radius. If not, just use a compass like I did in the second picture below. It takes a little bit of trial and error, but is not difficult in the least. (Note: the riser block looks curved in the picture below, but it's just an optical illusion from the camera.)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2855.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2846.jpg)
Once you get it marked out, cut it to shape on the bandsaw or with your coping saw.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2856.jpg)
The next thing I do is cut a very shallow radius in the belly of the handle, being sure to end the radius exactly at the fades and to leave the handle 1¼” thick in the middle. I take the piece that I cut off and glue it to the back of the handle as an overlay. This gives the handle a more rounded feel. Here’s a picture to help explain:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2876.jpg)
After the glue dries I remove the clamp and trim the handle overlay flush as in the picture below:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2885.jpg)
That’s that! The next step will be to check our draw weight, add the nock overlays, and shape the tips. We're gettin' close to done!
Post by: 4est trekker on October 29, 2009, 12:00:00 AM
I like to add temporary nocks using a wooden wedge secured with masking tape to transition from the tillering string to the short string. NOTE: For a great tutorial on making a quality Flemish string and jig, visit the following site:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/ragiwarmbear/diy/flemish/flemish.html.
Make sure you wrap the temporary nock really well or it will want to slide down the limb on you. If that happens, you’ll change the tiller of the bow. I always place a mark on the back of the bow where I want the nock to rest so I can see if it’s moving or not.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2857.jpg)
I check the tiller on the tree using the short string, and it looks almost identical to the initial tiller check we did with the tillering string. Satisfied for now, I want to check my draw weight. I’ve learned two rules about tillering that have saved me a lot of time and headaches. 1) Never pull the bow further than it is tillered correctly, and 2) Never pull the bow past your intended draw weight. I will now go back and forth between the bow scale and tillering tree balancing these two rules as I seek to find what my draw weight is at 26”. If the tiller gets out of whack on the way there, I stop and retiller by scraping the stiff spots, pull the bow 30 times to give the wood time to settle, and then recheck the tiller. In the case of this bow, I don’t have to do any retillering and I find that the draw weight at 25” is 51# (or a projected 54#@26”). Perfect! But “WAIT”, you say. Didn’t I just break rule number 2 above? Kind of, but here’s a little trick. I don’t actually pull the bow to 26” just yet. I like to hit my target weight at 1” shy of the intended draw length. That gives me a few pounds to play with as I do the final shaping and sanding on the bow, and allows the wood to settle a little bit as I shoot it in.
Now, if you don’t have a bow scale, here’s a handy little setup I often use. I take a bathroom scale, a 36”-40” long dowel or square stick, and a small square scrap of plywood and make my own. I attached the stick upright to the plywood using screws. (In the one in the picture, I used a fortsner bit to countersink a hole to receive the end of the dowel. I then glued it and screwed it to the plywood) I make a notch in the top of the stick to hold the bowstring and then make marks on the stick at 24-31 inches from the top in one inch increments. These will tell me the draw length of the bow (I measure to the back of the handle. This is a whole other ball of wax, and you should familiarize yourself with how to accurately find YOUR drawlength, as well as how to measure drawlength a bow. Use the search function on this site.) When I place the string in the notch and pull down on the handle of the bow, the weight is transferred through the stick onto the bathroom scale. Simply read the poundage on the scale and VIOLA!
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2778.jpg)
Now, if you want to get really accurate, you can make a fancy calibration system as shown in the following picture (ha ha!)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2777.jpg)
I simply set the gallon water jug on the scale and adjust it to 8.34 pounds, minus the weight of the stick. As stupid as it sounds, I weighed several custom wood/glass bows and they read dead on for their marked draw length using this method!
The next thing I want to do is add nock overlays. These allow you to cut a groove more deeply into the tip, which keeps the string in place better. They also can add a bit of decoration. I’m using coco bola, although you can use any dense hardwood, including osage. I true up one face of the nock overlay using sandpaper on a flat surface. These overlays are just about 1 1/4" long.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2872.jpg)
You then need to flatten the very end of the bow tips on the back side to accept the nock overlays. They must mate perfectly, so take your time. When you’ve got a good match between the overlay and the tip, clean the mating surfaces with acetone, especially if using a tropical hardwood. When dry, lather both surfaces with TB III and clamp it up. (If you don’t want to add nock overlays, just search this site for various pictures of bows [self bows in particular] that have more traditional nocks.) You'll notice that I butted masking tape up against the tip overlay. As I did before, I add this tape before the glue-up so that it doesn't smear all over the back of the bow.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2874.jpg)
Once dry, shape the tips to your satisfaction. Dutchwarbow has posted some really beautiful tips on his buid-alongs, so I encourage you to look at his designs. Here’s how mine turned out:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2900.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2903.jpg)
I use a small round file to rough cut the string grooves. I don’t cut all the way through the overlay, and I angle the grooves at about 45 degrees on the sides. When they’re fairly smooth I take and heat a roofing nail with a torch and burn the grooves smooth.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2892.jpg)
Okay, all we’ve gotta’ do now is finish shaping the handle, check the tiller while drawing the bow in the hand, add a stain (optional) and finish, install an arrow shelf (optional), and wrap the handle (optional). That’s an easy stretch to the end, and we’ll be done in no time! Take care, and thanks for following! See you next time.
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on October 29, 2009, 12:33:00 AM
Post by: razorback on October 29, 2009, 07:35:00 AM
4Est, can you put up an oblique pic of the handle area so we can get a view of all the curves working together. The side curves seem fairly extreme for a comfotable grip. Though I know the details of these are in nthe next installment and with the handle it can be made to personal preference. Can't wait to see the finished bow. :campfire:
Post by: Art B on October 29, 2009, 04:46:00 PM
A ring's radius is another to tell. Larger radius dictates the trunk end and the smaller radius the top.
If all else fails try balancing the board dead center and see if one end is heavier than the other. The heavier side would be the trunk end (I see this in my arrow making where there's a pronounced difference in ring thickness from end to end). Of course you need to make sure the board's moisture content is consistant from end to end. Many of the chain stores store their wood vertically which can cause an unbalance in MC. If this is the case then it would be wise to store the wood horizonally for a period of time before jumping on it.
ART
Post by: 4est trekker on October 29, 2009, 09:07:00 PM
Well, this round is pretty simple. I use a rasp, file, and then various grits of sandpaper/sanding pads to round the handle to a comfortable grip. I give special consideration to the area that will become the arrow pass, being sure to remove plenty of wood on the belly of the handle in the region so the arrow approaches the handle at a less severe angle. To make the handle symmetrical, I do this on both sides of the top and bottom. Also, if for some reason the tiller ever changes on the bow and the top limb ends up stronger than the bottom, I can just flip the bow over and keep shootin’! Or, as is sometimes the case, I’ll end up giving the bow to a lefty. All in all, it’s nice to have the handle finished so either limb can be the top limb and both righties and lefties can shoot it.
I then take a knife or razor blade and scrape the handle to give it a smooth finish. Lastly, I take a smooth piece of antler and burnish the entire bow. By that I mean rubbing the antler over the surface of the bow (especially the back) hard enough to compress the fibers together and give it a smooth feel. Although it does have cosmetic benefits, it can also be the difference between a functional bow and a tiny splinter raising on the back that eventually renders it nothing more than fancy kindling. (You can use just about any hard, smooth, rounded object for burnishing. I’ve used baby food jars, glass guitar slides, and glass bottles.)
Here’s some pictures of the finished handle.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2893.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2895.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2897.jpg)
Here's a picture of the back profile of the bow:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2906.jpg)
Alright. We’re gonna see how the bow’s tiller looks when drawn by hand. I’ve decided to post a video so you can actually see the limbs working, rather than as a static picture. One note about the video…I say it’s pulling 54 #@26”, but I misspoke. It’s actually 52#@ 26” after the final sanding. That leaves 2# for settling in. Not bad! Anyhow, here goes…and sorry about that stupid look on my face :biglaugh:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/th_Movie6.jpg) (http://s984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/?action=view¤t=Movie6.flv)
Well, it ain’t perfect, but for 12 bucks and a coupla’ hours of work we’re in pretty good shape. I’m going to leave the tiller right there. The next step is staining/sealing the bow, adding an arrow pass, and then wrapping the handle. We’re gettin’ close now! All we need is a good set of matched arrows and we’ll be eatin’ venison for Thanksgiving!
Post by: Igor on October 29, 2009, 09:19:00 PM
I like the profile!
Nice work!
Thanks for the thread!
><>
Glenn
Post by: Dooley on October 29, 2009, 09:52:00 PM
Got a piece of hickory lumber under the sofa I'm gonna try that on.
Post by: bubby on October 29, 2009, 11:25:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on October 29, 2009, 11:38:00 PM
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on October 30, 2009, 12:35:00 AM
Thanks for taking the time to do this 4est.
Post by: buckhuck on October 30, 2009, 10:11:00 PM
Post by: coulter on October 31, 2009, 10:51:00 AM
Post by: 4est trekker on October 31, 2009, 10:59:00 AM
Post by: Dano on October 31, 2009, 11:12:00 AM
Post by: ron w on October 31, 2009, 05:43:00 PM
Post by: stickmonkey on November 01, 2009, 12:24:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 02, 2009, 12:20:00 AM
I used a variety of homemade stains, my favorite of which are made from berry juices, inks, and denatured alcohol. This particular stain is a simple aniline stain that you can get in powdered form and cut with denatured alcohol. It dries very quickly and can be sealed shortly after applying. Here’s how it turned it:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2941.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2939.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2938.jpg)
Before I seal the bow, I go ahead and cut shallow stringer nocks just behind the bowstring nocks. Again, I burn them smooth with a hot nail. I use a simple stringer with a loop tied at each end.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM3011.jpg)
I then seal the entire bow with at least 3 coats of lacquer. I use it because it’s cheap dries within minutes (dries, NOT cures!), and can be applied with a cloth. No, it’s not waterproof, but it does build up in the grain nicely and seals in the stain. After the 3+ coats have sat for a couple of hours, I buff it out with 000 steel wool. Then I rub the entire bow down with either mink oil or SnoSeal, both of which are leather waterproofers. (Alternately, I’ve used warmed beeswax). You can apply another coat each hunting season to keep your bow dry and protected. Yes, there are better products available, but this method is cheap, easy, and effective (which is the whole point of this build-along). There is no finish that will completely encase your bow in an impenetrable shell, so I like to use a finish that I can easily reapply as needed. Just be sure to let the mink oil cure out for a day or two as it does have a distinct smell that dissipates as it dries.
Round 9, comin' up...
Post by: 4est trekker on November 02, 2009, 12:23:00 AM
NOTE: See the updates later in this thread for an easier floppy leather rest that you may find easier to build and shoot off of. It is nothing more than a relatively pliable piece of leather that is attached under the handle wrap and lays down flat across the top of the hand to support the arrow. It does not require a wedge to maintain arrow clearance.
We’re going to put a floppy-style rest on this bow, although you could just shoot off-hand and skip the whole thing altogether. I first cut a piece of leather as such and trim/burnish the edges. I also take it to the drum sander and taper the pointed (bottom) side down to a feather edge.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2956.jpg)
You can search for hours on how to best locate your arrow rest. I just always go with what feels right to me. It’s your call. When I find “the spot,” I tape it to the handle with masking tape.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2958.jpg)
I take a strip of leather and superglue one edge down and then wrap it spirally up the handle, overlapping each wrap slightly.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2959.jpg)
I finish it off by tapering the tag end and gluing it down flush. I rub some mink oil into the handle, which gives it some moisture resistance and also adds a nice patina. Here’s the result (This pictures show the arrow pass, which we haven't added yet. That's round 10)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2989.jpg)
Post by: 4est trekker on November 02, 2009, 12:28:00 AM
Now we need to make the leather arrow plate. I slice a piece of the same leather used for the floppy shelf with a razor blade. I want it thin so it doesn’t push the arrow any further away from center than necessary. Then I shape it as shown below and apply it with either carpet tape or superglue.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2970.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2972.jpg)
Here’s the result:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2986.jpg)
In order to prevent the floppy rest from binding the arrow and to provide my hand with a placement indicator, I cut a small wedge like this….
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2983.jpg)
and insert it between the pass and shelf like this…
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2985.jpg)
Now, shoot the bow in and fine-tune your nocking point. Once satisfied, weigh the bow and indicate the weight@drawlength. I do it as such:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2992.jpg)
By the way, here’s the first three arrows I shot with this bow at 12 yards…I was pleased!
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2963.jpg)
As a side note, here’s another handle style. It's wrapped with hemp cordage (from Wal-Mart) over a leather-covered wooden shelf. The pass is split leather. I apply a watered down Titebond III solution to the cordage with my fingers which waterproofs it and interlocks the fibers.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM2995.jpg)
Post by: 4est trekker on November 02, 2009, 12:30:00 AM
Here’s a couple of pictures of the finished product. I don’t have any at full draw, but if you watched the video earlier in the thread it hasn’t changed. It came in right at 50#@26” after shooting it in.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM3000.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM3008.jpg)
Here’s a couple of pictures with it next to my turkey hunting bow. That bow is dyed with homegrown raspberry and blueberry juices mixed with ink and cut with denatured alcohol.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM3013.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/HPIM3015.jpg)
Just a couple of final words. I hope that at least someone has gained the confidence and enough information to get their first bow built. It’s a cheap and easy project that you can do in a weekend. This particular bow is overbuilt by most standards, and comes in slightly heavier in physical weight than is most efficient (I’m referring to the Mass Principle as discussed in Volume 4 of the Traditional Bowyer’s Bible). However, the wide limbs allow more wood to do the tension work, thus adding a margin of safety that the bow will not raise a splinter and fracture. The longer length allows it to be pulled to 28”, and perhaps a bit more. You could always narrow the limbs some and compensate by making it a touch thicker to keep the weight up. This would reduce mass, but the further you go in this direction the more the moisture content, tiller, grain, early/late growth ratio, etc. will need to be spot on. (That turkey bow above is 44#@26”, measures 64” ntn, and weighs 18 ounces. It sure is nice to carry, as you hardly know it’s there. It also shoots slightly above average in speed for its weight @ drawlength.)
At the end of the day, a bow is a bendy stick with a string. Is this the prettiest bow? Nope. The fastest bow? Nope. But I haven’t met a turkey yet that stopped me mid-draw and begged me to shoot him with a prettier bow. “Dead as a doornail” is dead enough for me, and if I can do it for $12 and three or four hours of work, I’m in!
Good luck, ya’ll, and if you build one please post some pictures. Thanks for following! God Bless.
Post by: razorback on November 02, 2009, 08:37:00 AM
I have a nice piece of Oak I picked up the other day and will start one very soon, just have to clean up the shop. Have you done any with more bulbous handles or do you stick to this handle design. I may make up several mock handle out of scrap to find one that I like, I may even find the design you use to be comfortable. I am planning on using a contrast wood, probably Walnut for the riser glue-on and I think the cut off you add to the front of the bow will look good like this. I will post pictures.
Again, thanks for the work.
Post by: coulter on November 02, 2009, 08:41:00 AM
Post by: Mar on November 02, 2009, 09:18:00 AM
We'll see, at least it's a learning experience before I try my hand at building a yew bow.
Post by: Ricker on November 03, 2009, 08:00:00 AM
Good luck hunting
Post by: Eric Krewson on November 03, 2009, 08:28:00 AM
Post by: Shaun on November 03, 2009, 09:55:00 AM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 03, 2009, 04:41:00 PM
Post by: WestTexan on November 03, 2009, 11:43:00 PM
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on November 04, 2009, 12:34:00 AM
How narrow and thick would the limbs need to be to get this bow down around 25 or 30 pounds for a young beginning archer?
Post by: Wulomac on November 04, 2009, 09:15:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 05, 2009, 08:01:00 AM
How old is the youngster, and what is their draw length? Here's some specs that will give you a 25-30# red oak pyramid bow that a kid can grow into:
63" NTN (64" overall)
2 3/8" wide at the fades narrowing to 1/2" at the tips
3/8" limb thickness
As the kid's drawlength increases, so will the bow's poundage. However, if the bow comes in too light, pike the bow by taking 1" off each tip (assuming you haven't done the glue-on recurved tips.) This will usually yield a 5# increase in draw weight. If the bow comes in too heavy, you can take a few measured scrapes at a time on the belly of each limb until you hit your target weight.
Good luck, and show some pictures!
Post by: razorback on November 05, 2009, 08:22:00 AM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 05, 2009, 10:09:00 PM
If anyone has had luck doing as razorback has described, let me know (perhaps Jawge or Art B?- you guys are certainly more knowledgeable about board bow than I). Perhaps it will work with a few modifications. And you're right, razorback....it would definately speed the operation up, providing you're not doing the glue-on recurved tips. Thanks for the question!
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on November 06, 2009, 01:14:00 AM
I'm gonna round up some lumber her in a few weeks and I will definetly post some pics.
Wish I didn't have so much going on right now so I could started.
Post by: razorback on November 06, 2009, 08:02:00 AM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 06, 2009, 08:37:00 AM
I tried the method you're describing once, but my table saw isn't large enough to do a quality (and safe) job, mostly because of the size of the cutting table. However, I did use my 1960's Crafstman radial arm saw (a beast!) to build a bow once. I turned the saw 90 degrees, added an extension to the infeed side of the cutting table, and screwed a sacrificial fence to the table. I set the blade up 1/32" over the finished thickness of the limbs off the table. Then I ran the board through, belly side up, all the way through fades, letting the radius of the saw blade cut the profile of the fades. Each pass I moved the saw in and 1/8" and repeated the cut, much like you do when cutting a tenon on a table saw. This actually worked very well, but I'm always leery of getting close to an exposed 10" blade :scared: so I haven't done it since. Maybe I'll do that on my next bow and post some pictures.
Good luck!
Post by: dbscott on November 06, 2009, 02:41:00 PM
Post by: soopernate on November 06, 2009, 05:07:00 PM
Post by: drydave on November 06, 2009, 09:32:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 06, 2009, 11:51:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 09, 2009, 07:01:00 PM
If you made them 1" wide, don't sweat it. Just draw a new taper line on either side of each limb and taper accordingly.
Post by: bubby on November 10, 2009, 01:49:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 10, 2009, 05:34:00 PM
Post by: bubby on November 10, 2009, 10:35:00 PM
Post by: bubby on November 10, 2009, 10:36:00 PM
Post by: bubby on November 10, 2009, 10:37:00 PM
Post by: dutchwarbow on November 11, 2009, 03:57:00 AM
good stuff man ;)
I have a few pointers, hope you don't mind:
- the fading in the handlethickness starts when it's already at the widest point. This gives your handle a blocky look. It will look much nicer if they start to taper in thickness and width at the same spot.
- the handle is at the thinnest exactly at the middle, were it's not needes. If you make it wider at the centre, then narrower towards the arrowpass, then fade it out, you will have a much more comfortable, better looking handle. it'll look like this:
\\/
()
/\\
I'd also make the wrapping longer, for looks. Just as on the picture of the other bow you posted.
- I love the scorching of the stringgrooves!!! gonna try that :D
- I love you recurves, gonna try that aswell! :)
Nick
Post by: dutchwarbow on November 11, 2009, 03:59:00 AM
oh and 4estrekker, hope you don't mind me being so direct. That's how we dutchies are!
Nick
Post by: razorback on November 11, 2009, 09:44:00 AM
4Est have you done any handles like this, or wood combo's on this type of bow and if so how did it work out.
Post by: 4est trekker on November 11, 2009, 10:50:00 AM
Thanks again everybody for following along. I'm learning a bunch in the process. Keep the ideas coming, and I'm anxious to see some pictures!
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on November 11, 2009, 11:40:00 AM
I need the specs on a bow for about 30# at 26" and 45# at 28" and about 56" to 60"
Also need the specs on the bow you built for your boy.
Thanks, Kris.
I will post pics as I go. Those bows on the link you posted were some good looking sticks.
Post by: matt g meyers on November 12, 2009, 10:10:00 PM
So I started a bow and had to end up shortening things up quite a bit.I had some grain separation that was very well camoflaged,and with all the time invested I couldn't walk away.
I trimmed the limb tips and now I'm looking at a 53" nock to nock.2" tapered to 1/2" tips.
I've thinned the belly down to 3/8"and this thing is still way too beefy for my son.
Having never worked with oak like this,my question is how thin can I get the limbs before I go to far?
Thanks for all your time on this build a long. MM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 12, 2009, 10:46:00 PM
Bow Length=((Draw Length x 2) x 1.15) +1.
Working backwards, the max I would draw a 53 unbacked bow is 23". You could back it with linen, burlap, brown paper, etc. and eek it out a little bit more draw length.
I made a little unbacked red oak pyramid bow for my cousin to take rabbit hunting. It's 48" ntn, 2" at the fades, 1/2" at the tips, 5/16" thick, and pulls 35# @ 20". Hopefully that'll help get you in the ballpark of where you want to be. Just remember, when you're dealing with bows this short, you need to make sure you get ALL of the limb bending, especially out of the fades. Otherwise you'll overstress the limb at some point and it'll start to fret. There is less room for error when tillering short bows.
As far as grain separation goes, sometimes you can saturate the area in superglue and then wrap tightly with silk or linen thread, sinew, etc. Even artificial sinew and bowstring material can be used. I've saved a handful of bows this way that are still shooting several years later. Wrap the other limb in the same way to make it look purposeful :biglaugh: Good luck, and post some pictures.
Post by: 4est trekker on November 12, 2009, 11:34:00 PM
That being said, I can offer you some suggestions on getting close to your intended weight per draw length, and encourage any bowyers with pyramid bow specs to offer them up for comparison. But first, I wouldn't make your bows 56"-60" long. Here's why. As I stated in my previous post, I use the following formula for determining minimum bow length:
Bow Length=((Draw Length x 2) x 1.15)+1
For 30# at 26" bow, I'd make it 61" long MINIMUM (60" ntn). For the 45# bow I'd make it 64" long MINIMUM (63" ntn). Now, say you come up short in weight and need to pike it (shorten it to increase draw weight.) Generally you shorten both tips 1" to gain 5# in draw weight. It you've built the bow at the margin of safety, you don't have much to play with. Plus, we're working with unbacked red oak, not osage or hickory, both of which can take more abuse.
BUT (ah, the exception) you can always use the glue-one recurve to add a few pounds (up to about 5#) at the given bow length if you come in too low. So, you've built the bow at the margin and come in under weight but haven't done the glue-on recurve tips, simply the add them and your weight will go up. If you've already rounded the edges at the tips on the back of the bow (which would not lead to a good joint) just bevel them like you would when adding tip overlays, only over a longer run.
So, for my overall recommendations (which I hope others can chime in on). Again, I have a hard time nailing a draw weight/draw length out of the air. These are specs from bows I have built; but again, they're GUIDELINES! Adjust as necessary.
30#@26" = 62" overall (61"ntn), 2.5" at the fades, 1/2" at the tips, 13/32" thick. If you come in heavy, you can just scrape the belly evenly on both sides to drop the weight. Too low? Pike it a little (assuming you haven't added the recurved tips yet).
45#@28" = 66" overall (65" ntn), 2.5" at the fades, 1/2 at the tips, 7/16" thick.
Both of these assume the same riser/fade layout as shown in the build-along.
Sorry this got so long. I hope it answers your questions and gets you started in the right direction. If you don't hit your target weight, then don't hit me either! :knothead: Heck, as cheap and quick as it is to build these things, you'll have a rack full of bows to give away if nothing else!
PS The specs for my son's bow you inquired about are: 47" ntn, 2 7/8" at the fades, 1/4" at the tips (yikes!), 9/32" thick, 25#@22". The glue-on recurved tips are more like miniature siyahs (found on a horsebows).
Post by: 4est trekker on November 13, 2009, 12:14:00 AM
Bow Length = (Draw Length x 2) x 1.1
To explain, that means take your draw length, double it, and then add 10%. I add 15% plus 1". Some bowyers add 20%.
I made the bow in this build-along 68" for an added measure of safety because it's red oak, it's unbacked, and I expected a lot of first-time bowyers to follow along. Hopefully some of them are busy at work and will post their pictures soon. Looking forward to it! :thumbsup:
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on November 13, 2009, 12:53:00 AM
With your formula for my draw length I end with 66" with 2x draw length x 1.1 I end up with 62" so for the sake of experimenting I'm gonna go with 60" overall and do a backing of brown paper under snake skin. 2.5 at the fades .5 at nock and start out at 7/16 on the limbs and see what happens.
What do you think about that, should be good since I'm backing it I figure or am I wrong? I haven't started making sawdust just yet just trying to get a good plan together before I do and screw it up. Measure 3 times and cut once, right LOL.
Would it hurt to take the fades down to 2" and if not will that reduce draw weight (I figure it will but don't want it be unsafe or take alot of set). I'll probably go ahead with 2.5 but was just wondering.
Post by: 4est trekker on November 13, 2009, 07:59:00 AM
You could narrow the limb width to 2", but you'd need to thicken the limb just a tad (1/32" of an inch at the most, probably). This could actually be beneficial if you'd got a beauty of a board. Wood is 8x when doubled in thickness, but only 2x stronger when doubled in width. So, it takes just a very small amount of wood added to the belly to compensate for the wood removed from the sides of the limbs. The benefit is a bow lighter in mass. Now, as Dutchwarbow state in an earlier post, you can always start with 2.5" and then trim the width of the bow near the fades as the limbs begin to thicken. You're adding thickness wood very quickly here, so taking a little of the sides will not be a problem. It will give your bow slightly less mass and a more rounded look.
I like that snake skin idea! Looking forward to it. Can't wait to see some pictures :thumbsup:
Post by: 4est trekker on November 13, 2009, 08:05:00 AM
Also, I've been asked to provide a template for the glue-on recurve and fade radiuses. I'll do that. If you just want so send me a pm and include your e-mail, I'll send you a PDF with both of them on it. As a handy little trick, a 10" diameter (5" radius) circle cuts the radius at the fades beautifully. In fact, I'll post some pictures this weekend of how to use a radial arm saw with a 10" blade to simultaneously cut the bow to thickness and cut the fades.
Thanks again for following this thread. Hope it's helpful. I know I'm learning a lot :clapper:
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on November 13, 2009, 12:51:00 PM
THanks for all the input 4est
Kris
Post by: 4est trekker on November 14, 2009, 02:11:00 AM
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Radial%20Arm%20Saw%20Bow/HPIM3066.jpg)]
I set up my bow blank as before. Here's what this one looks like. Note that I will be cutting the thickness (side profile) before I cut the width (front profile). I did it just the opposite in the bow I built earlier in this thread.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Radial%20Arm%20Saw%20Bow/HPIM3065.jpg)]
I turn the saw 90 degrees and set it up to rip. The distance from the blade to the cutting table will be the same as the finished thickness of the limbs, plus 1/64". I clamp on an auxiliary fence, check both the fence and the blade for square, and I'm ready to roll:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Radial%20Arm%20Saw%20Bow/HPIM3067.jpg)
I start with the saw blade lined up with the outer 1/8" of the edge of the bow opposite the fence and make a pass until I get to the red line. I pull the board out SLOWLY and CAREFULLY so I don't bind it. Then I flip the board around and make the same pass on the other side. Then I move the saw 1/8" closer to the fence and repeat the process.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Radial%20Arm%20Saw%20Bow/HPIM3068.jpg)
When you've reached the fence, your bow will look something like this:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Radial%20Arm%20Saw%20Bow/HPIM3073.jpg)
And you will look something like this:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Radial%20Arm%20Saw%20Bow/HPIM3069.jpg)
What's slick with this particular board is that I can rip it down the middle and get two 1.5" wide bows out of it, which will be just right for the little kiddos!
The beautiful part is that a 10" saw blade cuts a very graceful fade radius. This setup also works fantastic if you use a stacked dado head, but your radius at the fade will be much shallower. And whatever you do, do NOT try this with your table saw! It's a whole different shootin' match, and you'll lose! :knothead:
Post by: 4est trekker on November 14, 2009, 02:17:00 AM
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Kids%20Bows/HPIM3077.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Kids%20Bows/HPIM3078.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Kids%20Bows/HPIM3079.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Kids%20Bows/HPIM3080.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Kids%20Bows/HPIM3081.jpg)
The heavier your bow, the wider and thicker you'll need to make the narrow parts of the handle. Also, I can cut into the back of the bow only because it's a non-bending handle and it doesn't move there. As long as I leave enough wood in the handle, it'll remain rigid, and therefore not be subject to tension, and thus won't break. But you've got to make sure there's NO movement for about 1" tipward of where you start dipping into the back on each limb. For safety, it's a good idea to just add a beefy (i.e. thick) handle overlay on the back of the bow and then cut into that.
I haven't finished the bow yet, but you get the general idea, eh?
Post by: dbscott on November 14, 2009, 04:38:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 14, 2009, 05:54:00 PM
Post by: SSGN_Doc on November 19, 2009, 05:36:00 PM
I really appreciate this build along. I really like the turkey bow you have pictured and am interested in the rest of the dimensions on it.
I've seen that it is 64" in length, and draws 45# at 26 inches. I didn't see the width at the fades, but assume it is 3" like the build along bow. I also didn't see the limb thickness written down either.
I would prefer a 28" draw length but it would be nice to know what your dimensions are and also know that it may be a bit heavier at my draw length.
Thanks again, for your helpful and illustrative build along.
Post by: Greg Szalewski on November 19, 2009, 08:52:00 PM
Post by: SSGN_Doc on November 21, 2009, 08:01:00 AM
Thanks again. It's a lot of info to absorb in one thread.
Mark
Post by: SoNevada Archer on November 21, 2009, 03:53:00 PM
Post by: Jesse Peltan on November 21, 2009, 04:00:00 PM
Post by: Bill Sagues on November 21, 2009, 06:52:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 22, 2009, 10:35:00 AM
In regards to being able to make the bow shorter, that is true. Again, I wanted to keep things safe for the first-time bowyer. By having a longer bow, longer draw lengths and weights can be achieved within a much safer margin (i.e. more wood doing the work). Secondly, it allows for easier and more forgiving tillering for the first-time bowyer. Lastly, it gives a bow that is very sweet shooting, accurate, and forgiving. One thing people often assume falsely about a pyramid bow is that because of it's size and often long length, it must be a poor, slow shooter with lots of hand shock. The opposite is true. They are solid, accurate, and quick shooters, especially in the 64-68" range. Unless I'm looking for a short bow that fits in a blind, I prefer a long pyramid bow hands down. (In fact, I hunt with a 64" ntn pyramid bow in my turkey blind.)
I'm not sure what you mean about overstressing the top and bottom of the handle. There is no set taken here, yet the bow bends gracefully into the fades. If the wood here was overstressed, fracture, fretting, and/or set would occur. Maybe a few pictures of what you're saying would help clear things up for me.
Thanks for the commentary, Jesse. :) I enjoy learning and appreciate your comments. :thumbsup: I stated this earlier, but maybe I'll trim the bow down in the fade/handle region, as well as the tips and post some pictures. Although not necessary, it can up the performance a wee bit and drop the physical weight a tad.
Post by: Jesse Peltan on November 22, 2009, 02:33:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 22, 2009, 03:30:00 PM
If you take a uniform thickness board/limb and then cut it to a pyramidal shape, the tiller should (minus wood inconsistency) be automatic. This is the most basic form (and one of the greatest qualities) of the true pyramid bow. One can adjust tiller as wanted to attain a stiffer inner third of the bottom limb, stiff outer tips, whip tiller, etc. This can be done by scraping the belly, thinning the width, and/or adjusting the angle of taper on the front profile. Tim Baker's article in the TBB (I think it's the 3rd volume) explains this much better than I can. For new bowyers, trying to gauge an even thickness AND width taper can be tricky and will often lead to a severely whip tillered bow, or a poorly tillered bow at best. Hinges and fretting can develop quickly. A perfectly uniform thickness is very easy to achieve and judge with the simplest of tools, especially when working with dimensional lumber, as the back is already flat and true. I've found in teaching bow building seminars that this is a very fast, effective, and easy method for the first time bowyer. Most folks complete their bow in a single day and have it stained, sealed and shooting arrows they've made by suppertime. :) :thumbsup:
I hope I'm thinking correctly about what you've described. In fact, my favorite bow on my bow rack is a 1939 Ben Pearson hickory longbow that is exactly as you describe, although it is considerably narrower in width than a true pyramid bow. It roughly tapers in width and thickness (although the width taper is not a straight line). Obviously, since wood is roughly 8x stronger in thickness than in width, you could achieve the same draw weight with much less wood by adding a minimal amount of thickness while reducing a significant amount of width. Yet, the pyramid bow, with it's thin and narrow outer limbs, is really a phenomenal design in that it doesn't really suffer (in fact excels) by having a little more width, a little less thickness, and a longer length. Sure, it's not going to smoke an arrow 180 fps unless you've got an 80# bow at 28-30" or an unhealthy amount of reflex. BUT, this design allows more wood to go into tension and compression, and that is why I favor this particular design for first-time bowyers. it adds a large margin of safety and room for error in terms of wood selection (i.e. species, moisture content, grain orientation, early/late growth ration, etc.), tillering ability, overdrawing, etc.
Enjoying the commentary. :thumbsup: Thanks again, Jesse!
Post by: R.W. on November 22, 2009, 08:29:00 PM
Hopefully this one goes into the "How-to" section.
Excellent tutorial, 4est!
R.W.
Post by: Jesse Peltan on November 22, 2009, 08:58:00 PM
Post by: David Holt on November 23, 2009, 12:08:00 AM
I have followed this EXCELLENT buildalong and have finaly ended up with an ""adult" weight bow! This thing shoots like a champ. My buddy is working n his and I'm already thinking about my next one. Thanks for taking the time. I can't seem to find any bowyers in southeast GA so this worked out GREAT!!
HMC(SS/SW) David Holt
Submarine Force Independent Duty Corpsman
Kings Bay GA
HOO-YAH
Post by: tradtusker on November 23, 2009, 11:41:00 AM
Post by: lone hunter on November 23, 2009, 04:23:00 PM
Thanks again and Good Hunting. Mike
Post by: 4est trekker on November 23, 2009, 05:48:00 PM
Lone Hunter: Good luck and thanks for the kind words. With proper construction and care, a bow like this can last a lifetime. This will depend greatly upon things like wood selection, tiller, how and where you store the bow, the method you use to string it, abuse, the weight of arrows you're shooting, etc. But heck, even if it blows up after your first hunting season, it'll give you a good reason to build another, right? Plus, it's cheap! :thumbsup: Remember to post some pictures!
Post by: SSGN_Doc on November 23, 2009, 09:22:00 PM
My glue up is done, and I spent a portion of my afternoon at Dave's using his bandsaw to get mine going. I'm trying the "bulbous center" handle style so Dave and I can get a better idea of which we prefer. I've still got a ways to go on evening out the belly of mine, (I don't have a lot of faith in my bandsaw skills so I left a bit more than just the cut line when I cut the side profile off the belly, and this left a lot of rasping for me to do).
Dave did a lot of sanding and burnishing on his, and I got to see the first coat of stain go on his bow. I'll have to take the camera over when I go back to fit my nock tips and finish evening out the belly. ( I also need to remember to take the string making supplies. Sorry Dave.)
Dave's bow is a sweet shooter and I can hardly wait to finish mine and try it out.
Next project will be to make a kids version for my daughter. It broke my heart to watch her cry after I broke my last attempt at a board bow for her. I think this design shows good promise for making a bow that will work out for her as well.
HMC(SS) Mark Sizemore
Submarine Force Independent Duty Corpsman
Kings Bay, GA
Post by: 4est trekker on November 27, 2009, 12:37:00 AM
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/pyramidalbogen_02_image.jpg)
Post by: 4est trekker on November 27, 2009, 12:40:00 AM
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Pyramid%20Red%20Oak%20Board%20Bow%20Build%20Along/Bowstringer.jpg)
Post by: SSGN_Doc on November 27, 2009, 10:06:00 AM
Here's where I am so far:
(http://i50.tinypic.com/eqv7h2.jpg)
(http://i46.tinypic.com/ehgepv.jpg)
You might be able to notice the package with the French Curve in it in the upper right, if anyone was curious what one looks like. I found my set of 3 at Office Depot for $9.
(http://i48.tinypic.com/25su8og.jpg)
I went with the bulb center handle. You can notice I put an arrow in the middle so I know which limb is top until I get the handle and rest placed.
Lower limb is a bit stiffer, but the thing shoots nice the way it is an I don't want to lose any more draw weight. She pulls 50 lbs at 26". I thinned the limbs down to 13/32". (I may have gotten a denser board, but 15/32 was probably well over 60#).
It's been a cool project with satisfying results so far. Dave and I put a few arrows through it while the handle was still just roughed out. It seems to be pretty fast shooting and puts them where you look at 10 paces.
Thanks, especially to Dave for all the use of his big power tools. (Since I lack the band saw.)
Also, thanks again for this great tutorial 4est.
For a tillering string we used a single loop Flemish twist string with a bowyers knot on the other end.
Trying to decide on color. I've got some green stain that is tempting, but the other options are Walnut, Classic Oak, Red Oak, or Gunstock.
Mark
Post by: 4est trekker on November 27, 2009, 10:51:00 AM
You mention that the lower limb is too stiff. Actually, this is a good thing, depending on where and to what extent it's stiffer. Check the bow at full draw using a mirror, camera, or friend. Most often the lower limb undergoes more strain than the top limb when the bow is drawn in the hand, and therefore should be slightly stiffer. This is referred to as positive tiller and is called such because the string will be further from the fades on the top limb than on the bottom. It will generally look slightly uneven at brace and when drawn on the tillering tree. However, it should even right out when drawn in the hand depending on how much heel pressure you use on your bow hand, where you're nock point is at, and what release you're using.
Again, congrats. Can't wait to see the finished product! :thumbsup:
Post by: Jesse Peltan on November 27, 2009, 11:35:00 AM
Post by: SSGN_Doc on November 27, 2009, 12:28:00 PM
I wanted the lower limb stiffer for just the reasons you list.
I had Dave check it as I drew it and we think I't needed to come down just a hair, and was looking a bit stiffer at mid limb before the glue-on recurve. I just did a bit more heavy sanding and am pretty happy with where it's at.
(http://i45.tinypic.com/m92jyd.jpg)
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2d0l35d.jpg)
Post by: Jesse Peltan on November 27, 2009, 04:42:00 PM
Post by: David Holt on November 28, 2009, 04:56:00 PM
Post by: SSGN_Doc on November 28, 2009, 05:19:00 PM
I just finished wrapping my handle this afternoon. It came out pretty nice and is a nice match for the Purple Heart overlays.
(http://i45.tinypic.com/sytft4.jpg)
(http://i46.tinypic.com/11w9hsw.jpg)
I went with some of that red leather thread I had. I super glued it in places underneath as I went along to maintain tension. I used a leather shaving for an arrow plate, and another small wedge of leather that I rounded on the top as an arrow rest. It was really bright red but I coated it with Titebond III and it became a very nice purple/burgundy.
I've got more of the leather that I used if you need it, Dave.
Post by: 4est trekker on November 28, 2009, 06:43:00 PM
You guys keep it up, and if anybody else is building one, don't be afraid to post some pictures! :)
Post by: TXNeal on December 01, 2009, 04:55:00 PM
I'm really interested in making one of these bows and intend to purchase the lumber this weekend when I will be making a roadtrip to a place with a Lowes or Home Depot. Should I be able to find red oak at one of these places? I'm also curious to know how much a board of the proper dimensions will cost. If they are affordable, I may even purchase several of them if I can find that many with good grain.
I've been interested in building a bow for many years now and have made a few failed attempts, but I'm still wanting to do it. In fact, I have been collecting osage orange logs for about 25 years and have a stack of them in my back yard. I recently met a bowyer who works with osage and he has agreed to help me with my next attempt, but I think that I would like to try one of these red oak bows as a practice run.
I'm a welding and woodworking teacher in a high school, so I have access to a shop with everything I need and I'm thinking that I might do this project at school and see if I can't get a couple of students to take an interest in building one of their own. It might make for a pretty cool teaching/learning experience for me to be helping my students build bows! Of course, I think I'll need to run this one by the superintendent first to make sure I'm not violating any district policies by having my students build "weapons" at school.
Anyway, I think this is a great thread and I do intend to follow through with giving it a try. If any of you guys can give me a rough estimate of what this red oak lumber will cost, I would appreciate it. Also, if you know whether Home Depot or Lowes would be the place to look for it, that would be helpful to. I live in a pretty remote area, where there is no place nearby to purchase hardwood lumber without placing a special order, so I'm not really familiar with retail stores that sell it. Thanks for any help you can provide!
Post by: sssnap on December 01, 2009, 07:05:00 PM
Post by: SSGN_Doc on December 01, 2009, 09:31:00 PM
Post by: TXNeal on December 02, 2009, 11:52:00 AM
In the PM I received from sssnap, he mentioned having had some problems with the wood being too dry and needing to be re-humidified. Unfornutately, I live in an arid desert environment and our humidity stays very low at most times, so if the wood needs more humidification, I'm not sure how I would accomplish that.
I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced problems with the red oak being too dry and if there are any suggestions for what I might do to remedy the problem in a low humidity environment?
I've mentioned this project to some students today and already have three guys who are really excited about giving it a try, so I'm going to make an effort to get some boards and turn them into bows. Maybe we will luck out and the moisture issue will not present a problem.
Post by: bubby on December 10, 2009, 11:01:00 PM
Post by: R.W. on December 11, 2009, 11:40:00 PM
I have been shooting the board bow I built from your build-a-long. (45#@28")
Quite a bit of hand shock, I notice. This with a 50# spine POC arrow with 160 grain feild point.
Would "trapping" the limbs reduce the handshock?
I believe that lighting the limbs by trapezoid shaping of them should reduce hand shock, and improve cast.
Sorry I can't post pictures, as I am not into the "digital" age .(or even film photography)
Post by: 4est trekker on December 12, 2009, 09:38:00 AM
Regarding the handshock:
1) With a non-centershot bow, you really need to shoot arrows that are lower in spine weight than your draw weight. I usually go around 5-10#, sometimes even 15# lower in spine weight. This could be the source of your handshock alone, as the arrow won't bend gracefully around the handle during release. Rather, it slams into the side of the handle. 160 grains is a healthy point, but I'm not sure it's enough to offset a 50# spined shaft. How's the arrow flight at say, 15-20 yards?
2) When you've got properly spined shafts, be critical of the total mass of the arrows. 10 grains per pound plus is where you'll be transferring nearly all the energy of the bow into the arrow (that is, and NOT into excess vibration that causes handshock). I would say that arrow tuning is the most important and most forgotten about aspect of tuning wooden bows.
3) At the same time you're checking your arrow set up, check the tiller. Make sure it's even at full drawn when DRAWN IN THE HAND. The tillering tree won't tell you much, as it can't mimic your hand placement, grip, draw, etc. Small adjusts here can take a bone-jarring bow down to a sweet shooter in a hurry...with proper arrows, that is.
4) If full-draw tiller and arrows both check out, try this step. If you've built the bow to exactly the dimensions I gave in the tutorial, it will be overbuilt by some degree. I would first gradually narrow the width SLIGHTLY in the outer 1/3 of each limb toward the tips. This will reduce outer limb mass and have little effect on tiller, as the bow doesn't do that much work in this region. A LITTLE here can go a long way. However, if you take off too much, you'll end up with a whip tillered bow, or worse yet one with a hinge or that will fail altogether. But don't be shy about it. Remember that wood is 8x stronger in thickness than in width.
5) Failing all of that you could consider trapping. There is enough wood in the bow to allow it, I believe. However, I rarely trap bows in this way, so I would not be the best resource for this. (I often use "heat trapping" [i.e. tempering the belly] which serves a similar purpose to back trapping, but is achieved through other means.)
I hope this helps you. You can get a sweet shooter out of this bow, no doubt. Take it slow and methodically. I like to keep notes as I go when tuning a bow. Also, do you have silencers on your bow? They dampen vibration, which is the culprit anyway. You could also be critical of your string (too thick or thin?), nock placement (too high or low?), release (are you plucking the string?), bow-hand grip (are you torquing the bow?), etc. Keep us posted! You'll get there.
Post by: R.W. on December 12, 2009, 08:30:00 PM
Went to a "500" carbon shaft with weight tube. 590 gr total weight.
These are shooting quite well, and am experiencing less shock.
No silencers yet. Will have to get some wool and make up a bunch.
I have lightened the end third of the limbs, as per your recommendations
If I heat treat the belly of the bow, how long should I leave it to allow the wood to re-hydrate? I don't have a moisture meter, so I will have to "guesstimate" that.
I figure about 2 weeks should allow a good safety margin in re-hydrating the wood.
Thanks for all your help, 4est.
Post by: Doug Treat on December 13, 2009, 07:44:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on December 13, 2009, 09:47:00 PM
Now, let me see if I get your description right:
Total bow length: 74" ntn
Total riser length: 20-22" (???)
Limb width at widest: 2 3/4"
Limb thickness: 1/2"
I would be hesitant to make your riser that long. I wouldn't go over 12" max (even that would be really long for my taste.) With your dimensions you render the working part of each limb only 27" long. The bow in the build-along (which is 6" shorter than your proposed bow) has a working limb length of 30" (3" inches longer!). Combine your plan to narrow the limbs, and you have actually taken a step in the other direction. Here's what I would suggest:
70" ntn
10" riser length (that'll give you an inch more on each side than the bow in the build-along)
2 3/4" limb width at fades
1/2" limb thickness (may need to adjust this)
Others may have more insight and better suggestions. But I hope this is a good starting point. I'm excited to see what you get out of your efforts! Post lots of pictures and questions and you'll get a bow out of it! :thumbsup:
Post by: Doug Treat on December 13, 2009, 09:59:00 PM
Post by: SSGN_Doc on December 13, 2009, 10:08:00 PM
Post by: Doug Treat on December 14, 2009, 04:19:00 PM
Post by: Doug Treat on December 14, 2009, 04:36:00 PM
Post by: bubby on December 14, 2009, 06:00:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on December 14, 2009, 06:45:00 PM
Question 1: Yes, I focus mainly on the side of the board that will be the bow's future back. It's a technique described by Mark Baker and one that produces bow after bow for me. The grain on the back won't change when making the bow. Looking for perfect grain on the edge of the bow is fun and all, but will nearly ALWAYS change when you make the bow because you're shaping the profile of the limb (i.e. narrowing it). Again, Mark Baker describes this in detail and with much more clarity than I can here. I will try to post a direct quote from him in the next few days if I have time. You might need to remind me.
Question 2: When you use 1" dimensional lumber (actually 3/4" thick) and glue on a riser of identical thickness, the joint between those two pieces of wood falls midway up the radius of the fade. Therefore, it's not receiving as much stress because it's thicker there and isn't bending as much. However, if you were to plan the stave the thickness first and then glue on the riser board, your fade would start precisely at the glue joint, and would receive tremendously more force. That is, you've got the most amount of pressure (since the inner third of the bow limb does the most work) concentrated on the thinnest edge. This feathered edge of the riser board will break away and fail under the force. Another way to say it is, the further you go up the fade out radius, the less force is being exerted on the wood. So, the higher your joint between the riser block and bow blank is, the less stress it has to endure.
Question 3: The recurved tips add a slight increase in performance by placing the tips closer to the zero line between deflex and reflex. The further the tips are to being even or even reflexed beyond this line, the more energy you store during the draw. Let's take two identical bows. Both are osage flatbows with the exact same dimension and pull 50#@28". However, bow A has 2" of string follow while bow B has 1" of reflex at the tips. Although they pull they same weight, bow B will have more cast because it's storing more energy. That is, the limb is doing work sooner in bow B than in bow A.
Hope these answers help. I'm not the best at explaining things. Let me know what I need to clear up!
P.S. Estes Park, CO is one of the most beautiful places on the planet. Some of my fondest memories from my childhood and now with my own family are from that area. You sure are lucky!
Post by: cooter on December 14, 2009, 07:02:00 PM
Total riser length: 20-22" (???)
Limb width at widest: 2 3/4"
Limb thickness: 1/2"
Holy hanna, what kinda bow you making. :bigsmyl: Just came back from too long a vacation from here. 74"ntn. imho way to much wood to get that arrow moving with any speed. Remember you need to transfer the stored energy from the limbs to the arrow. With that much wood a lot of the stored energy is going into getting those limbs moving and wont be transferred to the arrow. I've made bows with both limbs shorter than your riser. 2 3/4" wide??? cut that in about half depending on the wood your using.
My first question what type of wood you using?
Second question what draw weight you shooting for?
Just some food for thought,
Cooter
Post by: Doug Treat on December 15, 2009, 10:08:00 AM
Post by: SSGN_Doc on December 15, 2009, 05:22:00 PM
(http://i46.tinypic.com/bhx1tk.jpg)
(http://i49.tinypic.com/34xj2ja.jpg)
Post by: David Holt on December 15, 2009, 11:39:00 PM
OK...workin on bow #2. This one is 65" NKN, 2.5" at the fades to 1/2" tips. It pulls about 46# @ 27" right now. The problem I'm having is that it is taking alot of set/string follow. Unbraced overnight it has about 2" on one limb andn 3" on the other. When I brace it and shoot it a few times the string follow shoots up to over 3". I poured through the TBBs and I think I may have braced it too high initially and it doesn't help that it's like 100% humidity all the time here in SE Georgia (84 degrees today). I went and bought a heat gun and put a little reflex in the limbs and heat tempered the belly. first time doing that so I probably didn't do a good job :knothead: . I then left it on the front porch overnight to soak up some moisture (might as well have been gren again the next day). The heat tempering did't help a bit. I have put it back into MORE reflex and heat tempered the belly for longer this time and left it in my garage.
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/PyramidBow2001.jpg)
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/PyramidBow2002.jpg)
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/PyramidBow2003.jpg
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/PyramidBow2004.jpg
My plan WAS to let it sit overnight and back it with rawhide from a chew toy I've had soaking for 2 days:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/PyramidBow2005.jpg
But....It was glued together too well and the long center piece was all glued together and didn't make it through the unwrapping phase :mad: . Not sure what to do now. I have brown paper, satin and some kind of silk blend I can back it with but i don't want to brace it again until I get it backed. Any takers?
BTW here are some pic from my first success:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/PyramidBow008.jpg
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/PyramidBow016.jpg
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/PyramidBow015.jpg
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/PyramidBow018.jpg
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/PyramidBow013.jpg
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/PyramidBow014.jpg
Post by: David Holt on December 16, 2009, 01:18:00 PM
Post by: dbscott on December 19, 2009, 11:06:00 AM
Post by: David Holt on December 19, 2009, 11:31:00 AM
1st a plug, buy the Traditional Bowyer's Bibles. they are a wealth of knowledge. There is hardly a day that goes by that I don't look up something.
Backings that will add draw weight will include sinew and other woods such as bamboo, hickory etc. You can back bow with just about anything that won't stretch. Other backings include natural fibers such as linen, silk, brown paper etc. These backings will not add performance (draw weight) but will protect the back from cracking or splinters raising up. You can also use synthetic stuff like drywall tape (did that on my daughters bow). I backed the bow that's in the clams above with brown paper (bought a roll at walmart) last night. I was going to back it with camo fabric but I got lazy. The first pyramid bow I built using this thread I didn't back. Have fun and experiment. Don't forget to ask questions on this forum. These guyz are SMART!!
Just 2cnt from another amateur.
Dave
Post by: Tom Leemans on December 19, 2009, 11:35:00 AM
Not sure you're gonna reflex that set back out of her. That set is a result of cell compression. Usually, bending bows backwards, albeit gentle, damages the cells further and results in a failure at some point.
Post by: 4est trekker on December 20, 2009, 12:52:00 AM
Interestingly, I was reading back through Mark St. Louis' chapter on heat treating in the TBB Volume 4 looking for tidbits I may had missed the first 50 times ( :) ) and I did find that he says heat treating can be used to remove set in bows. However, in practice this generally proves to be false.
Post by: 4est trekker on December 20, 2009, 01:00:00 AM
Post by: Bill Sagues on December 20, 2009, 10:08:00 AM
I followed this excellent tutorial and built my first bow.
72" total length, 70" nock to nock, 10" riser, 2.75" - .5" width. I backed it with 3 layers of drywall tape and it pulled to about 40 lbs. at 30 inches. I shot it off my hand without an arrow rest and had a ball for about 150 arrows.
Then.....
A picture of the belly.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x109/Wsagues/Pyramid%20Bow%2009/CIMG0241.jpg)
The back.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x109/Wsagues/Pyramid%20Bow%2009/CIMG0242.jpg)
the "CRACK" :-(
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x109/Wsagues/Pyramid%20Bow%2009/CIMG0243.jpg)
Yep ... I was in the back yard shooting arrows into my target at 15 yards - and as I was drawing back one time I heard the slightest "crack" ... and that was it.
The good news is that I had to buy a 6" wide board at Lowes to find the grain I was looking for so I had about a ~ 2" wide board left from the original to start all over again - and so I have....
I will post when the next one it done - or broke; which ever comes first!
Thanks again 4est the great tutorial!
Post by: 4est trekker on December 20, 2009, 10:35:00 AM
If I may, the diagnosis for breakage is most likely due to the three layers of drywall tape. One layer is perfect and is all that is needed. The more layers you apply (i.e. the thicker the backing) the more you raise the neutral plane of the bow. This makes the backing do more of the tension work. A backing of this type is meant to prevent splinters from raising, not to go into tension, which would thus raise performance. Brown paper, silk, linen, drywall tape, rawhide, etc. are all backings that will deter splinters but NOT increase draw weight/performance. Sinew, wood, and bamboo backings are designed to carry the tension load, thus raising draw weight/performance. The first type of backings will be thin, the second type thicker.
My advice would be to use only one layer of tape and glue for a backing, if you use any at all. Again, great job and good luck with the second bow! At 2" wide, I would start with around 9/16" for the limb thickness. Good luck and happy building! :)
Post by: David Holt on December 20, 2009, 12:11:00 PM
Yep, The heat tempering and reflex did no help with the string follow. I took it off the board after about 3 days and backed it with brown paper. I braced it the next day and shot about 12 arrows out of it and presto...the set was back, but not as bad.
BTW, 4rest, what is the optimum brace height for these pyramid bows? I'm shooting 5" arrows but im thinking of getting a 4" cutter cause I'm kinda diggin a lower brace height and my 5" feathers are draggin.
Post by: 4est trekker on December 20, 2009, 02:35:00 PM
In regards to fletch length, I prefer a minimum of 5". If the bow is centershot or near centershot, you can usually get away with 4" fletches. The 5" to 5 1/2" fletches really help the arrow stabilize a whole lot more quickly than 4" do.
HOWEVER, if you find a setup that works, than you can't really argue with it. It the arrows fly well, hit their mark, and leave the bow quietly, then you've found the pocket, so to speak.
Post by: David Holt on December 20, 2009, 09:57:00 PM
Hate to bombard you with more questions (not really) but I have another. Here are some pics of the bow Im working on. I can't tell if this is a good positive tiller or if I need to take more off the stiffer left (lower) limb.
Initial Brace
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/BowBraced002.jpg)
tiller @ 27"
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/BowBraced003.jpg)
Brace after excersizing the limbs about 50 times
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/cumah/BowBraced004-3.jpg)
Post by: Bill Sagues on December 20, 2009, 10:09:00 PM
I take it that it is a case of less is more (with the drywall tape backing). On the next one I will try just one layer of tape.
Since the next bow will only be 2" wide at its widest point I have also tapered the thickness from 3/4" at the fade to 3/8" at the tip. I plan on tillering it slowly and working the limbs as I take off the wood on the belly. I will post pixs when I get it close.
Thanks for the reply and the help.
Post by: SSGN_Doc on December 21, 2009, 12:29:00 PM
If the pic is too graphic let me know and I'll modify it.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/fp8ffd.jpg)
Post by: David Holt on December 21, 2009, 01:09:00 PM
Post by: SSGN_Doc on December 21, 2009, 01:37:00 PM
Between him and the black lab they did a number on it.
Oh, and thanks Dave.
Post by: 4est trekker on December 21, 2009, 05:14:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on December 21, 2009, 05:37:00 PM
I would assemble a tool kit consisting of a drawknife, Stanley Surfom rasp (or similar), a 4-in-1 rasp, a flat-bladed knife or cabinet scraper, sandpaper, steel wool, and a coping saw.
To take the limbs to thickness and rough out the fades, start with the drawknife, but TAKE IT SLOW! You can tear wood up in a hurry with a drawknife. When you get close to your taper lines, dig in with the Surform rasp. These things can take wood off in a hurry, but do so in a much more controlled manner. They will leave behind a slightly gouged surface, so follow that up with your drawknife or flat-bladed knife used as a scraper, or a dedicated cabinet scraper. This is where you can true the belly up and make sure it doesn't have a crown (i.e. radius). Follow that up with some sandpaper (optional) and steel wool, and you're set!
Use the coping saw to rough out the handle. Then continue with the 4-in-1 rasp. Hit it with some sandpaper, and finally steel wool.
I also like to burnish the entire bow with a round piece of glass or metal to give it a nice appearance and keep inhibit splinters from raising on the back.
Hope this helps!
Post by: SSGN_Doc on December 21, 2009, 06:16:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on December 21, 2009, 10:14:00 PM
Keep 'em coming! :thumbsup:
Post by: Bob Barnes on December 23, 2009, 08:52:00 AM
thanks much.
Bob
Post by: Bill Sagues on December 25, 2009, 09:53:00 PM
At brace height.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x109/Wsagues/Oak%20Bow%20%202/CIMG0250.jpg)
At 28 inches.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x109/Wsagues/Oak%20Bow%20%202/CIMG0251.jpg)
A group from ~ 12 yards.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x109/Wsagues/Oak%20Bow%20%202/CIMG0249.jpg)
Thanks again 4est for the inspiration and great build along.
Merry Christmas!
Post by: 4est trekker on December 25, 2009, 10:02:00 PM
It must be nice being where you can practice outdoors year round. We've got about 18 inches of snow on the ground and plenty of wind to blow it around! They're calling for 4 more inches tonight. Oh well. Makes chasing those bunnies a lot easier!
Again, good work and thanks for posting.
PS. Could you share your dimensions so that others might benefit? Thanks.
Post by: Bill Sagues on December 25, 2009, 10:24:00 PM
The bow is 72" total length, 70" ntn, 2" wide at the fades tapered to 1/2" at the tips.
Been a lot of fun so far.
I am going to attempt an Ipe - Hickory backed bow next.
Thanks again for everything.
Ps. I have been following your Osage Flat bow build on the other thread - GREAT JOB! - one day I will have to give it a go....
Post by: Grizzzly on December 25, 2009, 10:54:00 PM
Post by: David Holt on December 26, 2009, 10:25:00 AM
Dave
Post by: SSGN_Doc on December 27, 2009, 08:52:00 PM
Post by: SSGN_Doc on December 27, 2009, 08:54:00 PM
Post by: Russell S. on December 27, 2009, 10:02:00 PM
Post by: David Holt on December 28, 2009, 12:14:00 AM
Post by: Russell S. on December 28, 2009, 01:27:00 AM
Post by: Tom Leemans on December 28, 2009, 07:19:00 AM
OMG! The horror! Thank goodness you dispatched that vicious beast.
Post by: SSGN_Doc on December 28, 2009, 09:12:00 AM
'Twas more a test of the accuracy. If I can get a half dozen squirrels I'll be trying to make some Brunswick stew. If I can keep my dogs away from them.
Next bow is going to be a bit more compact and of lighter draw weight to be more appropriate for turkey, rabbit, squirrel, and such. Of course the flatter trajectory of this bow was a contributing factor to making the shot.
Post by: SSGN_Doc on December 28, 2009, 09:22:00 AM
Let us know if you make it down here. My wife wants to get back to Washington. But that is not likely to happen unless I make Senior Chief and decide to delay retirement. Or we relocate that way when I retire.
I'd be alright hunting in the Olympic range again, or in the Cascade foothills to the south of Olympia where my father-in-law likes to hunt.
Post by: Pac'em out on December 29, 2009, 08:01:00 AM
Post by: R.W. on January 04, 2010, 07:40:00 AM
Post by: riivioristo on January 08, 2010, 11:49:00 AM
Post by: 4est trekker on January 08, 2010, 02:44:00 PM
The first thing I do is cut the fades and along the thickness taper for about an inch with a coping saw as such:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Static%20Recurve/HPIM3551.jpg)
Next I shape the THICKNESS (side profile). I use a sharp hatchet and go WITH the direction of the grain. If you go against, you'll tear out wood past your line. Generally, you'll work one limb towards the grip, the other away from the grip. I start by angling the sides from the middle of the belly down toward the thickness line. This will leave a crown on the belly. Here's a few pics of that process:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Static%20Recurve/HPIM3554.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Static%20Recurve/HPIM3555.jpg)
Then I knock the crown off to flatten the belly out:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Static%20Recurve/HPIM3556.jpg)
The next thing I do is cut the front profile (limb tapers). I do this before truing up the limb thickness so that I don't have so much wood to work. I use the hatchet to get it close, then a Stanley Surform rasp and block plane to true it up:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Static%20Recurve/HPIM3560.jpg)
Then I have to redraw the side profile (limb thickness) line:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Static%20Recurve/HPIM3564.jpg)
I use the Surform rasp and to flatten and true up the belly, then round the edges of the limbs and it's ready for tillering. Total time from beginning the layout to getting it on the tree was 1 hour and 45 minutes. Didn't take long at all, and sure cut down on the dust in my shop! Just keep your hatchet sharp and your fingers clear.
PS: I find that I have much more control with a hatchet. A drawknife works fine, too, but I just don't have enough finesse with one to work a board stave with it.
Post by: NEProf on January 08, 2010, 10:37:00 PM
Thanks. That is very helpful. I hope you will show your maple bow when it is done. I love maple boards for bows. Where do you get your maple boards?
Post by: tradsniper on January 10, 2010, 05:38:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on January 13, 2010, 11:53:00 PM
Post by: tradsniper on January 14, 2010, 12:01:00 AM
Post by: WestTexan on January 14, 2010, 12:25:00 AM
But I thought about posting on your thread..should have. I need to get a picture of the first that I built like yours but it was only 11/2 wide and 66" ntn pulls 32# at 28"...my wife shoots it. My next one will be hopefully 55 at 26"...I kinda overbuilt the first one,it was pulling 50 at 20" so I took some off and wound up a little light.This is my favorite bow.
Post by: dutchwarbow on January 14, 2010, 05:40:00 AM
here's my favorite, it's now in my posession and it's the best one I've ever handled:
http://www.dick.biz/dick/product/710806/detail.jsf
it just rocks. :)
Nick
Post by: 4est trekker on January 14, 2010, 08:16:00 AM
Post by: dutchwarbow on January 14, 2010, 03:56:00 PM
Dick.Biz is a great and reliable supplyer, even though the shipment to USA might double the price, it's more than worth it.
Nick
Post by: DLH on January 14, 2010, 04:46:00 PM
Post by: postercommon on January 16, 2010, 11:26:00 AM
My bow still shoots a little to the right, and I've come to believe it's the fletching, bouncing off the arrow rest. Is there a simple solution to this that I'm just looking over?
Post by: dutchwarbow on January 16, 2010, 03:17:00 PM
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on January 20, 2010, 12:29:00 AM
Like you said in a PM you sent me, that I kinda pushed this along. I got all wrapped up in osage before I got started on my board bow. However I do have it roughed out and am getting ready to start tillering it after I get it cleaned up some.
I'm gonna do a purple heart and bocote tip overlay and the same on the handle and am shooting for around 35lbs at around 26". It's gonna be my wifes bow and she is kinda excited about it so my stuff is on the back burner now. LOL But I think it will get her into archery as she has showed no interest what so ever until I told her it was gonna be her bow so I think it might get her going.
I'll post some pics when I get it on the tiller tree, I'm sure it'll need some critiquing.
Kris
Post by: klm5121 on January 21, 2010, 09:21:00 AM
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r251/klm5121/100_0465.jpg)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r251/klm5121/100_0468.jpg)
Post by: razorback on January 21, 2010, 11:36:00 AM
I am going to do a stringing groove like you put on yours 4est. I will post pictures as soon as my wife finds my camera that she borrowed.
Post by: Jeff Smith on January 21, 2010, 12:10:00 PM
You may want to put the handle lacing on the backside rather than the belly side. Looks great, hard to find such nice boards.
Jeff
Post by: Harperclan7 on January 21, 2010, 01:54:00 PM
Post by: tradsniper on January 23, 2010, 07:02:00 PM
Post by: razorback on January 25, 2010, 08:58:00 AM
Post by: Harperclan7 on January 26, 2010, 03:28:00 PM
Post by: stickytoes on January 26, 2010, 06:51:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on January 26, 2010, 06:59:00 PM
Yes to all of your questions, although making the handle longer will shorten the overall working limb length if the bow is left the same ntn length.
Post by: stickytoes on January 26, 2010, 07:04:00 PM
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on January 26, 2010, 07:41:00 PM
I'm getting mine there. I'll post some pics shortly.
Matter of fact I think I'll go work on it a little now.
Later
Post by: tradsniper on January 30, 2010, 04:06:00 PM
Post by: Bill Sagues on January 30, 2010, 10:40:00 PM
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x109/Wsagues/Oak%20Bow%20%202/CIMG0295.jpg)
Post by: fish n chicks on February 06, 2010, 10:13:00 AM
But a question for you, wouldn't it be easier to cut the bow's edge profile while the bow is still squared up, and then cut the tapers? I wasn't sure if the steps were as they were for a reason. I don't have a band saw, so it doesn't quite matter yet, but it was something I thought about while pencilling in the profile's edge (while i was thinking about how to cut it! lol)
Can't thank you enough man. Keep it up!
Post by: 4est trekker on February 06, 2010, 10:27:00 AM
Bill and Tradsniper: Glad to see you've both gotten the bug, and that you've gotten some shooters out of the deal! Good work!
Post by: fish n chicks on February 06, 2010, 12:29:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 4est trekker:Nice! thank you! I lack a band saw altogether, and am having quite a time figuring out how to cut the profile. My sabre/jig saw is useless after about 1" of stock. Coping saw is like trying row to england. I asked a bud if I can hit his band saw tomorrow, but we'll see.
Fish n Chicks: Sure, you can do it that way.
Got any suggestions?
Post by: 4est trekker on February 06, 2010, 02:15:00 PM
Post by: MACT28214 on February 06, 2010, 10:22:00 PM
Thanks for the build. I was looking for a model for a new build, because I broke my last two board bows. Just waiting for the rain to stop and the temp to climb again (no heat in the shed).
Tim
Post by: Pac'em out on February 06, 2010, 10:37:00 PM
What is the black lam in the riser of your maple bow on pg 12? Please post picks when she's done.
Oh yeah, where do you get most of your boards? I've checked the local HD and Lowes with zero luck. Thanks.
Tim
Post by: 4est trekker on February 06, 2010, 11:40:00 PM
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=002740
I get a lot of my boards from Menards, which is more midwestern than national, I think. I also have good luck at HD and Lowes. However, you sometimes have to get there when they get their new shipments in to ensure you get the best selection. Also, if there's not a lot of turnover in stock, the same boards can sit there for weeks and months at a time, which can be a bummer if you're limited on wood suppliers.
Post by: fish n chicks on February 07, 2010, 01:45:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by 4est trekker:Bro you are out of your nugget if you think I can finesse a hatchet like that.I talked my buddy into letting me hit his band saw up in the am. I just got done laying out the riser form I'd like to see, so we'll see how it goes.
Yeah...check out page 12. I show you how to do it with little more than a hatchet.
Really dig the wenge in your wife's bow. That looks awesome. Very nice work all around.
Post by: bigwood on February 18, 2010, 08:31:00 AM
Also, thanks to fish n chicks - I'm going to try and duplicate the riser you posted on the bow trade/swap thread.
-Wood
Post by: twitchstick on February 19, 2010, 04:06:00 PM
Post by: PM_Mining on February 20, 2010, 03:26:00 PM
http://www.duluthtrading.com/28176.aspx?src=T28WSHOP1
Can't tell for quality simply based on the pictures, but have purchased tools from this source before and had no problems
Post by: stickytoes on February 20, 2010, 05:52:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on February 20, 2010, 10:04:00 PM
PM Mining: Thanks for finding that supplier...that's a steal for that thing!
Happy building, all! Post some pictures!
Post by: Bill Sagues on February 20, 2010, 10:05:00 PM
Post by: JGoemaat on February 23, 2010, 11:42:00 AM
(http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu323/jgoemaat1/IMG_0861.jpg)
(http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu323/jgoemaat1/IMG_0863.jpg)
(http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu323/jgoemaat1/IMG_0885.jpg)
(http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu323/jgoemaat1/IMG_0859.jpg)
Post by: 4est trekker on February 23, 2010, 11:28:00 PM
Post by: twitchstick on February 25, 2010, 08:35:00 PM
Post by: twitchstick on February 25, 2010, 10:13:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on February 25, 2010, 11:34:00 PM
Post by: fish n chicks on February 26, 2010, 04:31:00 PM
(http:// [url=http://s872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/jonnoocha/?action=view¤t=HPIM2995.jpg] [img]http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/jonnoocha/th_HPIM2995.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
Post by: 4est trekker on February 26, 2010, 11:23:00 PM
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Osage%20Flatbow%20For%20Steve%2009/HPIM3389.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Static%20Recurve/HPIM3647.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Tonys%20Christmas%20Bow%2009/HPIM3438.jpg)
But, just for your reference, here are two with cut-out shelves:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Paper%20Backed%20Oak%20Bow-2009%20NW%20Silent%20Auction/HPIM3327.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Paper%20Backed%20Oak%20Bow-2009%20NW%20Silent%20Auction/HPIM3329.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Board%20Bow/HPIM3262.jpg)
Post by: fish n chicks on February 27, 2010, 09:30:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by 4est trekker:Thanks bro. I understand what you're saying about leaving such things to the more complicated bows. And about the arrows. I also learned the other day, that traditional bows MUST shoot arrows with feather fletchings. I din't know that. I was still using my compound arrows, and getting all kinds of tailwag.
The shelf is another piece of wood covered with leather that is glued onto the side of the riser. This horsebow would NEVER accept a cut-out shelf, nor does it need one. Yes, I've made bows with cut-out shelfs, but to be honest with you, that's best left for glass and laminated bows. Wooden bows are a different beast. And don't assume bows with shelves cut into them shoot better or more accurately...false. It's the arrow that's the key. I would suggest adding a floppy rest to your bows like the ones shown in this build-along or the pictures below. Much safer, easier, and better-suited to a wooden bow.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Osage%20Flatbow%20For%20Steve%2009/HPIM3389.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Static%20Recurve/HPIM3647.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Tonys%20Christmas%20Bow%2009/HPIM3438.jpg)
But, just for your reference, here are two with cut-out shelves:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Paper%20Backed%20Oak%20Bow-2009%20NW%20Silent%20Auction/HPIM3327.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Paper%20Backed%20Oak%20Bow-2009%20NW%20Silent%20Auction/HPIM3329.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Board%20Bow/HPIM3262.jpg)
I am currently trying what you did on that one bow with what looks like a wenge laminate but i'm going with yellowheart at the riser & kentucky coffeebean recurve overlays. Glad I saw that bit of encouragement. Looking forward to showing you this one, and brother, I can't thank you enough for the knowledge you've passed on.
Post by: bigwood on March 01, 2010, 11:39:00 AM
Also, I'm curious about the reason for only using feather fletching.
Finally, would you post the dimensions for the leather floppy shelf you made for this build?
Thanks again for all you've posted - I can't remember the last time I've enjoyed working on a project as much as this one!!
Post by: fish n chicks on March 01, 2010, 12:04:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by bigwood:Great questions! I'm new to this too, but the other day a local dealer explained to me why trad-bows use feather fletchings. It's cause they give. Unlike plastic or regular vanes that are rigid, and can be shot through biscuits and off rests, feathers move, so when passing your sight window, or rest or whatever, the fletchings don't rip off your rugs, or throw tailwag into the mix. I noticed after shooting a few arrows I had from my compound, my rugs were already starting to get peeled off. Feathers = awesome.
I'm finally ready to start tillering. Is there a reason not to glue on the nock overlays & cut my nocks before starting the tillering?
Also, I'm curious about the reason for only using feather fletching.
Finally, would you post the dimensions for the leather floppy shelf you made for this build?
Thanks again for all you've posted - I can't remember the last time I've enjoyed working on a project as much as this one!!
Post by: WestTexan on March 01, 2010, 11:27:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on March 01, 2010, 11:40:00 PM
I generally make the floppy rests about 5/8" wide by about 1" long.
Glad your project is going well. Be sure to post some pictures! :thumbsup:
Post by: bigwood on March 04, 2010, 07:40:00 AM
Thanks for the info.
4est: First of all I've got to say - You make some beautiful bows!!
Are "tie on nocks" the pieces of wood you taped to the ends on page 2?
I haven't worked on the bow itself for a couple of weeks. Instead I've made a tillering tree & pully system (which I hope will be stout enough), and a bow string. So many preliminaries, exacerbated by the fact that I'm always "one more trip to the hardware store" from having everything I need to finish the job.
Anyway, I've managed to make a crude flemish string & hope to start the tillering process over the weekend.
Post by: Pete W on March 19, 2010, 09:22:00 AM
I wish I had this earlier on, but it will definately be a saved reference now.I am going board shoping today and with luck I can turn out some good bows from this .
Thanks
Pete
Post by: 4nthony on March 19, 2010, 10:34:00 AM
Osage Bow From Scratch Part 9, More Limb Reduction:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoX8PUI9g1M
Osage Bow From Scratch Part 10, Finishing the Handle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDksBdzy2jA&feature=related
Osage Bow From Scratch Part 12, Long String Tillering:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH5HZwe9j2A
hope that helps anyone, like me, that is sorta new to these tools.
Anthony
Post by: 4nthony on March 22, 2010, 10:15:00 PM
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/Uzume123/DSCN1096.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/Uzume123/DSCN1097.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/Uzume123/DSCN1098.jpg)
Anthony
Post by: 4est trekker on March 22, 2010, 10:57:00 PM
String it up, shoot it, and get started on your next one! :thumbsup:
Post by: 4nthony on March 22, 2010, 11:58:00 PM
oh and because i can't brace it yet. heres a braced pic before the backing :)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/Uzume123/DSCN1081.jpg)
Post by: SSGN_Doc on March 26, 2010, 04:31:00 PM
This one is 64" nock to nock and draws 41 lbs at 28"
(http://i43.tinypic.com/208h6rt.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/wbx8na.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2zirl1s.jpg)
Still have to serve the string, and wrap the handle, and put some mole skin on the arrow shelf.
I thought I was really messing up when I roughed out that grip, but it shaped up nicely in the end.
Post by: NEProf on March 27, 2010, 03:25:00 PM
Post by: bigwood on March 29, 2010, 07:58:00 AM
I'm probably the last guy following this build along who's still working on his first bow, but I'm slowly making progess, and I hope someone can answer the following questins:
On tillering - I'd like to end up between 45 & 50 lbs. Right now I'm at about 45lbs at 16" - do I just keep removing wood and increasing the draw an inch at a time until I'm at my final draw lenght?
What are the consequences of uneven tillering?
On the flemish string - what's the formula that takes me from my unstrung nock-to-nock length to the correct setting on my flemish string jig?
Thanks,
Wood
Post by: 4nthony on March 29, 2010, 10:46:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by bigwood:Pretty much that is the gist of it. What i'm getting in the habit of doing is marking the thinner spots on the belly with an X in pencil so u know not to remove wood there. and i sorta make swirls on the spots that i can remove wood. then i rasp/file/sand the swirled area until the pencil mark is gone. this pretty much ensures you don't take to much wood off of any one place as long as you are careful. if it's tillered correctly and u just need to thin it up. u can use the same method to remove fairly even layers of wood. hope that helps. and hopefully someone with a bit more experience can confirm that.
On tillering - I'd like to end up between 45 & 50 lbs. Right now I'm at about 45lbs at 16" - do I just keep removing wood and increasing the draw an inch at a time until I'm at my final draw lenght?
Good Luck,
Anthony
Post by: bigwood on March 30, 2010, 02:53:00 PM
I'm only spending a couple of hours per week, but would really like to finish up this weekend.
I still need to glue on the overlay nocks, but, other than that, its just a matter of tillering it down to my draw lenght.
I've really been inspired by the pictues of the completed bows - including yours!
Thanks to all who contribue to this site.
Post by: Fantom_42 on March 31, 2010, 09:24:00 AM
Right now I'm at the building phase in which I put the soon to be bow in the tilering stick and immediately found a problem....one of the staves doesn't bend even...it twist sideways and looks like a low pitch propeller.
I'm wandering what to do to correct the problem and would appreciate suggestions. Thanks.
Post by: WestTexan on April 01, 2010, 12:01:00 AM
Post by: 4est trekker on April 01, 2010, 07:44:00 AM
Post by: Fantom_42 on April 01, 2010, 08:21:00 PM
Post by: bigwood on April 05, 2010, 08:01:00 PM
I like this pic because of the shadow.
(http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae299/bigwood177/Red%20Oak%20Bow%201/DSCN0925.jpg)
Post by: bigwood on April 05, 2010, 11:44:00 PM
Another picture...
The bow is at about 45lbs @ 22 inches. I wanted to post a couple of pics in case something happens during the final tillering.
I'd like to end up at about 46lbs.
Post by: pditto613 on April 06, 2010, 08:29:00 PM
Post by: bigwood on April 12, 2010, 02:00:00 PM
Wood
Post by: J. Holden on April 13, 2010, 08:20:00 PM
-Jeremy
Post by: waldo320 on April 15, 2010, 12:12:00 PM
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5945/img7770w.jpg) (http://img151.imageshack.us/i/img7770w.jpg/)
(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/433/img7769.jpg) (http://img685.imageshack.us/i/img7769.jpg/)
(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9199/img7767k.jpg) (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/img7767k.jpg/)
Post by: bigwood on April 15, 2010, 05:09:00 PM
Post by: Paka on April 19, 2010, 04:57:00 AM
Post by: bigwood on April 19, 2010, 10:04:00 PM
Post by: bigwood on April 19, 2010, 10:07:00 PM
Post by: waldo320 on April 20, 2010, 11:44:00 AM
Post by: George Tsoukalas on April 20, 2010, 09:31:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on April 20, 2010, 10:02:00 PM
I'm glad to see so many of you having success with the build-along. Like I've said, the bow is overbuilt (3" wide makes it a convenient emergency canoe paddle!) and not the prettiest design (yes, I know the fades could use a little finessing), but it's a solid shooter with a fair amount of insurance built into it. And at the end of the day, a piece of wood that's properly and successfully tillered into a working bow is, no matter the bow, both efficient and graceful. Sure, there's always room for improvement, but the bow is just a fraction of the successful archery equation. I think Ishi said something to the effect that "any old stick him do for bow, but arrows kill deer."
Nonetheless, I'll try to post some ideas later on how to make this bow more efficient and graceful. The first, however, would have to be shortening the handle section down to around 8". That'll give you more working limb for starters, plus a few other benefits.
All for now. Keep it up, folks! I love to see the pictures!
Post by: dutchwarbow on April 21, 2010, 08:49:00 AM
It's now vlike... OH NO! once again a nice bow with an ugly handle... :(
gr.
Nick
Post by: J. Holden on April 23, 2010, 05:28:00 PM
-Jeremy
Post by: J. Holden on April 25, 2010, 06:04:00 PM
-Jeremy
Post by: 4est trekker on April 25, 2010, 09:31:00 PM
Post by: Paka on April 25, 2010, 09:47:00 PM
Finished staining (walnut color) and polyurethained bow . She's a beauty. Being new to this I dont notice the handle as not bieng un pleasant , I culdnt be happier.
4est, and everyone else. . When I shoot at 10 yards I anchor at my mouth, look at the top of the fades line and can hit my target dead on . But Im new to this trad. archery and am trying to figure out the way to shhot these bows so I'll keep reserching. But , I should be looking down the arrow right?? How do I know If my rest is to high , or too low?If I look down my arrow my anchor is almost under my eye.
Any ideas or links would be greatly appreciated.
As soon as I can Ill post pics of my bow. Again 4est , am so thankul for this build
Post by: Paka on May 01, 2010, 01:55:00 AM
Post by: 4est trekker on May 13, 2010, 12:19:00 AM
JUST BE SURE IT'S SCALED TO 8.5"X11" WHEN YOU GO TO PRINT IT! Photobucket won't allow an upload that big.
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Archery%20Tools%20and%20Jigs/FadeandRecurvedTipTemplate.jpg
Post by: Fourarrows on May 16, 2010, 06:42:00 PM
Post by: Fourarrows on May 16, 2010, 07:55:00 PM
Post by: David Dumke on May 18, 2010, 10:11:00 AM
Post by: Dave Bowers on May 18, 2010, 02:59:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on May 18, 2010, 07:57:00 PM
Post by: walrii on May 20, 2010, 10:55:00 PM
I have thickness planer. Instead of cutting the limbs down to 15/32" after glueing on the riser, can I plane the board to 15/32" at the beginning then glue on a slightly thicker riser and feather it into the limbs like you did the recurve blocks on the tips? Obviously, I'd only plane on the the belly side.
Thanks.
Post by: 4est trekker on May 21, 2010, 05:18:00 PM
Post by: fish n chicks on May 22, 2010, 09:16:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by 4est trekker:Your explanation is the whole reason I have not done the same thing myself. However, I have on the bench an idea that'll hopefully prove effective. I basically took the board to my table saw loaded with a dadoe blade (I use stacks, not wobbles) adjusted to 1/4" high. The dadoe's width doesn't wuite matter. So what I did was mark where my riser fades would begin, and trimmed from my bow's tips, to the riser, but stopping before where i'd glue on my riser. Now I don't have so much work to do on the band saw. Reason being is my p.o.s. craftsman is not good for resawing AT ALL. Saving my chips for a grizzly ultimate isn't easy but it has begun baby!
walrii: nope, bad idea. You want the joint between the bow and the riser block to be in the neutral plane (i.e. non-bending cross- section of the limb). When you go to bend the bow it will try to flex in the handle region. You're riser won't, and will thus pop off. You might try and do several thin laminations instead of a solid riser block, but that's more work and time than just cutting the limb thickness after glueing on the block.
This pic describes what i'm talking about... somewhat. This is post shaving and glue-up. I'm going with a little purpleheart in the riser and the recurve tips. Hope this helps some with thickness issues.
(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/jonnoocha/Bowyer%20Stuff/0522000911.jpg)
Post by: walrii on May 24, 2010, 11:04:00 PM
I have a question about tillering trees. How do the guys who put a pulley at the bottom so they can stand back and watch from a safe distance hold the bow at a particular draw length so they can study the limbs and decide where to make the next adjustments? I've looked at several pictures on the web and can't see any pegs or attachments to hold the string in place on these style tillering trees.
Post by: fish n chicks on May 25, 2010, 10:45:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by walrii:I used a cleat (like you'd see on boats) that I got from meijer. A simple $3 rope cleat screwed to the front of the tree's base.
Thanks for the reply 4est. I did finally finish reading this entire thread and found where you'd answered this question earlier.
I have a question about tillering trees. How do the guys who put a pulley at the bottom so they can stand back and watch from a safe distance hold the bow at a particular draw length so they can study the limbs and decide where to make the next adjustments? I've looked at several pictures on the web and can't see any pegs or attachments to hold the string in place on these style tillering trees.
Post by: 4est trekker on May 25, 2010, 05:51:00 PM
Post by: cpk86 on May 26, 2010, 01:27:00 AM
Post by: nayand on May 26, 2010, 07:11:00 PM
Post by: walrii on May 26, 2010, 10:24:00 PM
Thanks for all the advice - I get insatiably curious when I start a new project.
Post by: 4est trekker on May 27, 2010, 12:41:00 AM
Post by: cpk86 on May 29, 2010, 12:40:00 AM
We are (trying to) follow this build-a-long to the tee!
This is a first for both of us and it's a blast!
Here's what we have so far...
(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2996/img4003s.jpg) (http://img514.imageshack.us/i/img4003s.jpg/)
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4893/img4014i.jpg) (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/img4014i.jpg/)
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5839/img4042nu.jpg) (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/img4042nu.jpg/)
We are going to start the tillering tomorrow morning (hopefully...haha).
Also, big thanks to 4est! I've been constantly bombarding him with questions and he's been a great help!
Thanks buddy!
Post by: 4est trekker on May 29, 2010, 01:33:00 AM
Post by: cpk86 on May 29, 2010, 02:30:00 AM
My buddy makes mead and uses old beer bottles sometimes when he bottles it.
We did add to the pile a bit though ;)
Also,
What's the best way to use a rasp like the one I have? I have been using it by scraping with the grain and feel like it doesn't do much at all. Is there a better way or is this just real slow goin?
Post by: 4est trekker on May 29, 2010, 09:25:00 AM
Post by: cpk86 on May 29, 2010, 10:03:00 AM
Post by: cpk86 on May 29, 2010, 02:41:00 PM
The tillering tree...
(http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/8859/img4054.jpg) (http://img594.imageshack.us/i/img4054.jpg/)
...and the shaping of the handle.
(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1974/img4057g.jpg) (http://img204.imageshack.us/i/img4057g.jpg/)
As far as I could tell, the tiller looked good. Obviously the left side bends slightly less than the right, but that's what gives you positive tiller, right? Does that look ok to anybody else?
Post by: walrii on May 30, 2010, 08:37:00 PM
I've seen several rule-of-thumb formulas for the minimum bow length as a function of draw length. What about maximum bow length; is there a rule-of thumb formula for that?
Reason I ask is I found an almost perfect 8-foot red oak 1x2 in Lowes the other day. Wasn't even shopping for wood, just walked by the oak rack and there it was. The grain is dead straight the whole length minus the last six inches where there is a gentle curve - and the grain is that way on all four sides. It looks like it could make a 90" bow with no trouble.
I have a 29 1/2 inch draw and would like to make a 40-45# long bow from this piece.
Post by: walkabout on May 30, 2010, 09:49:00 PM
Post by: TREESLEEPER on June 01, 2010, 01:32:00 PM
Post by: jackthepointer on June 04, 2010, 10:26:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on June 04, 2010, 11:24:00 PM
Post by: matt g meyers on June 06, 2010, 01:32:00 AM
I cant belive this build along has gone for so long.I can remember tuning in to this every day last november while building a couple myself.I'm so stoked to see such a solid recruitment to the art of bow building.
Good luck to all the up and comming bowyers and thanks 4est for all of your quick and helpfull replies!
Post by: 4est trekker on June 06, 2010, 09:58:00 AM
Keep the building and questions up, folks!
I would also like to recommend George and Sam's site. I've built bows from both of them and had success and fun doing it:
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/archer.html (check out the "Building a Board Bow" page)
http://poorfolkbows.com/index.html
Post by: jackthepointer on June 07, 2010, 04:18:00 PM
Post by: jackthepointer on June 07, 2010, 04:19:00 PM
Post by: jackthepointer on June 07, 2010, 09:30:00 PM
Post by: jackthepointer on June 08, 2010, 11:43:00 AM
www.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/jackthepointer/ (http://www.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/jackthepointer/)
Post by: tim-flood on June 11, 2010, 05:03:00 PM
Post by: sammyrulez on June 17, 2010, 02:33:00 AM
Thanks to this tread I'm approaching my first bow build. I have to use ash since I could't find red oak. What is the suggested limb width for a light 40# at 28'' draw length with ash wood?
Thanks
Post by: rover brewer on June 28, 2010, 07:00:00 AM
Post by: 4est trekker on June 28, 2010, 08:14:00 AM
BTW, don't use thin superglue, though, or it won't take. Best of luck!
Post by: rover brewer on June 28, 2010, 06:48:00 PM
Post by: rover brewer on June 28, 2010, 07:00:00 PM
Post by: tishtail on June 29, 2010, 12:35:00 PM
Post by: rover brewer on June 29, 2010, 06:44:00 PM
Post by: J. Holden on July 15, 2010, 05:20:00 PM
-Jeremy
Post by: AZ_Shooter on July 21, 2010, 11:53:00 AM
Post by: 4est trekker on July 21, 2010, 02:05:00 PM
Post by: Jason/Woody on July 21, 2010, 04:12:00 PM
Also, thanks for the write up. This is what has REALLY made me decide to try and make my own. Also, I am left handed and plan on making an arrow rest. I thought the rest would go on the left side of the handle, but I think I might be wrong. Would the rest go on the right hand side? If so, why?
I am a woodworking, but more of a woodturner, so I plan on adding some accents to this because I have some exotics on hand already. Pictures will be posted when completed.
Post by: Jeremy on July 22, 2010, 07:47:00 AM
My draw lenght hovers just over 30". The last pyramid bow I made was 68" ntn (about 70" total length) the limbs were 1/2" thick and it came out around 55# at my draw. It was ash though... red oak would behave differently.
For a left handed archer (holds the bow in the right hand) the shelf or arrow pass would go on the right side of the bow. It has to do with all the forces that are in play when shooting, including the natural tendency to turn the bow slight away from the body (called cant) instead of keeping it completely vertical. Do you shoot at all now? If not, you might want to make your first bow a bit lighter in draw weight.
Post by: Jason/Woody on July 22, 2010, 09:33:00 AM
I don't currently shoot all the time. I have here and there, but never really knew what I was doing, just having fun. Maybe I'll end up going with the 15/32" limbs after all. I narrowed the taper to start at 2-1/2" figuring that would lower the weight some, and that is why I was going to go with 1/2" thickness.
The shelf makes sense, and I figured it was something like that.
Thanks for the help.
Post by: J. Holden on July 24, 2010, 09:37:00 AM
-Jeremy
Post by: 4est trekker on July 24, 2010, 09:57:00 AM
Again, nice job. So glad it worked out for you. Like the name, too.
Post by: beetlebailey1977 on September 11, 2010, 08:47:00 PM
Post by: J. Holden on September 11, 2010, 09:59:00 PM
(http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt213/Lzfd58/Genesis/ImportedPhotos00001.jpg) (http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt213/Lzfd58/Genesis/ImportedPhotos00000.jpg) (http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt213/Lzfd58/Genesis/ImportedPhotos00006.jpg)
-Jeremy :coffee:
Post by: 4est trekker on September 11, 2010, 10:45:00 PM
Post by: Byron Epting on October 12, 2010, 08:36:00 PM
Post by: Jeff Smith on October 12, 2010, 09:04:00 PM
Post by: Dr. Dan on October 15, 2010, 04:48:00 PM
great build along. I tried to make a board bow from som ash I had left over from making molding for the house using the best piece I could find and got a sore nose for my troubles. I will be doing an oak board to make a bow for my grand daughter (14 and weighs 70 lbs socking wet) that pulls about 32#. Thanks for the great build along.
Dr. Dan
Post by: 4est trekker on October 15, 2010, 05:24:00 PM
Post by: hova on October 16, 2010, 10:44:00 AM
as a side note , have you ever tried adding a second set of limp tips to get more curve?
-hov
Post by: 4est trekker on October 17, 2010, 08:15:00 AM
1) To increase the working length of the limbs and reduce the static riser area, make the center mark as usual and then put a mark 2" and 4" on either side of that. That will give you two marks that are 4" apart that locate the end of the fades and two marks 8" apart that locate the beginning of the fades. By allowing more limb to work, you can:
A) slightly increase the draw length to 29"
B) reduce set
2) By backing the bow with a simple backing of brown shipping paper (i.e. grocery sack paper on a roll) you can add insurance and possibly draw length. I buy this type of paper at Target in their mailing supplies. You can back a bow with paper before or after tapering the limbs to profile. You can also add it to a finished bow, provided you removed the finish on the back so the glue can properly adhere. Either way, it's easiest to apply BEFORE you round the edges of the limbs. Here's what I do:
A) Cut two strips of paper that are 2" longer than half the length of the bow and 1" wider than the profile of the limb.
B) Using Titebond II or III, spread a very thin layer of glue over the entire back of the bow. When it dries, lightly sand it. This sizes the back. To size the paper, lightly DAMPEN (not soak) it with a sponge.
C) Beginning at the center of the handle and working toward one tip, spread a thin, even layer of glue over one limb. It doesn't need to be very thick, as that will cause problems. However, cover every square inch of the limb.
D) Lay the paper on beginning at the center of the handle and then gently lay it down along the entire length of the limb, being sure to keep it aligned.
E) Using your fingers, gently work the excess glue and air bubbles out bow rubbing toward the tip and edges. Be care, as you can rub a hole in the paper pretty quickly, especially if there is any glue or moisture on your fingers.
F) Next, use a smooth, round object such as a glass tube to further work the glue and air bubbles out in the same fashion you did with your fingers.
G) Repeat for the other limb.
H) Once dry, you can stain the paper if you'd like. Doing this now will allow you to leave the wood natural (see first two pictures below).
I) Using a file and sandpaper, simply round the edges of the bow, thus removing the excess paper.
Here are some pictures of a few bows backed with stained brown paper:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Static%20Recurve/HPIM3640.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Paper%20Backed%20Oak%20Bow-2009%20NW%20Silent%20Auction/HPIM3330.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Kids%20Bows/HPIM3214.jpg)
3) A third update is that hickory is most suited to this project. Many guys have asked as such. It you can find a fairly straight grained piece, have at it! Hickory will take a beating and come back for more. You can make it shorter and narrower than the dimensions given in this buildalong, although if it's your first bow I'd start with those given and work down from there. There are two things two be aware of with hickory, however:
A) Make sure the belly is perfectly flat. Hickory is weak in compression and crowned belly will concentrate the compressive forces along that crown leading to fretting.
B) Keep the wood dry. It is notoriously prone to soaking up a great deal of moisture. This will lead to sluggish cast and excessive set.
4) Lastly, in order to give your bow hand more room, you could consider shaping your riser like the following pictures. In doing so, you should add another layer of wood to the riser. That is necessary because as you thin the riser section, you must be sure to compensate by adding thickness.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Static%20Recurve/HPIM3647.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Maple%20Static%20Recurve/HPIM3642.jpg)
Post by: fish n chicks on October 18, 2010, 11:00:00 AM
My first build, 60" ntn, pulled 25# @ 28". Red oak with Tamboti.
(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/jonnoocha/Bowyer%20Stuff/P2140835.jpg)
Bow #2, 64" ntn, 55# @ 28". Red oak, yellowheart, and bolivian rosewood. Please don't make fun of my draw, I was a wheelie boy my whole archerious life, so there was/is a bit of a learning curve for me.
(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/jonnoocha/Bowyer%20Stuff/IMG_3977.jpg)
Bow #3, firewood. It was an experiment with grips, and some valuable lessons were learned.
(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/jonnoocha/Bowyer%20Stuff/0519002135.jpg)
Bow #4, Purple Passion, went to Bobby Boswell during the Tradbow swap. 64" ntn, I think it pulled 45# @ 28". Red Oak and purple heart.
(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/jonnoocha/Bowyer%20Stuff/Purple%20Passion/IMG_4148.jpg)
Bow #5, went to my mentor and friend Rip White. 64" ntn, 55# @ 28". Common Cherry, Padauk, and Ebony.
(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/jonnoocha/Bowyer%20Stuff/Bow%20V/IMG_4182.jpg)
Bow #6, I made for myself. It's my pride and joy, as of now :biglaugh: Made from the same board as #5, but with purpleheart and ebony.
64" ntn, 45# @ 28".
(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/jonnoocha/Bow%206/IMG_5238.jpg)
(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/jonnoocha/Bow%206/IMG_5229.jpg)
Bow #7 was on the bench. It was red oak and purpleheart again (my wife wants one like purple passion) but a ridiculous looking run out became very real prior to tillering so she is just a model now.
Like I said, this BA has been nothing short of incredible for me. I have a connection to my passion like I never thought I could, and it has helped me work out my creative side as well.
Thank you 4est, I can tell you now that is a name I will not soon forget.
Post by: 4est trekker on October 18, 2010, 04:53:00 PM
Post by: DLH on October 18, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
How much more thickness do you personally add to your handles 4est another 3/4in?
Post by: LoneMaverick on November 19, 2010, 06:57:00 PM
Sad part is a splinter in the bow caused about halfway through the build caused one of the tips to split about 6" down straight through the center while trying out homemade arrows. :(
Currently on bow #2 using the same buildalong and doing a bit more fancy stuff, and I've only put about 1/4 of the time into it, bout to tiller now.
Anyway, had a question or two, Would I be able to salvage the other bow as a kids bow or longbow by piking it or do I need to take the thickness down as well?
Will post pictures of both when I can, atm I'm busy making dust :)
Thanks alot for the build 4est I've definately found myself a new hobby!
Post by: Pennsyltuckey pete on November 21, 2010, 08:06:00 PM
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00493.jpg)
pete
Post by: KellyG on November 21, 2010, 10:08:00 PM
keep the pics comming
Post by: sammyrulez on November 22, 2010, 02:53:00 AM
I'm at my second attempt to build a boardbow following 4est directions. I don't have a bendsaw and I'm foundig big dificoultis in shaping the handle profile.
With a hand saw is almost impossible to follow the curve on page 17. I tried also with rasp but with little success. Should I consider other shape options for the handler? Any tips?
Thanks
Post by: KellyG on November 22, 2010, 06:08:00 AM
I have not tried but maybe a coping saw might work. you may have to cut proir to glue up but I bet it would work
kelly
Post by: 4est trekker on November 22, 2010, 07:30:00 AM
Post by: J. Holden on November 22, 2010, 09:33:00 AM
I did most my shaping of the handle with a 4-1 file. Took quite a bit of time but I was able to get my handle "just right". Good luck.
-Jeremy :coffee:
Post by: J. Holden on November 22, 2010, 09:38:00 AM
Now that I think of it I did go to my father-in-laws house and use his bandsaw. If you don't have one, like me, I had thought of contacting the high school wood shop and seeing if they had one I could use. Just a thought.
-Jeremy :coffee:
Post by: Jeff Smith on November 22, 2010, 11:55:00 AM
Good Luck and keep us posted.
Jeff
Post by: fish n chicks on November 22, 2010, 03:47:00 PM
Post by: rover brewer on November 22, 2010, 07:14:00 PM
Post by: Pennsyltuckey pete on November 22, 2010, 07:20:00 PM
pete
Post by: Rattus58 on November 23, 2010, 12:47:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 4est trekker:Question.... what happens when you have a 31" drawlength, such as I do? Is this at all a problem or, if so, is there anyway to compensate?
Round 11: Final Pictures and Thoughts
Here’s a couple of pictures of the finished product. I don’t have any at full draw, but if you watched the video earlier in the thread it hasn’t changed. It came in right at 50#@26” after shooting it in.
Here’s a couple of pictures with it next to my turkey hunting bow. That bow is dyed with homegrown raspberry and blueberry juices mixed with ink and cut with denatured alcohol.
Just a couple of final words. I hope that at least someone has gained the confidence and enough information to get their first bow built. It’s a cheap and easy project that you can do in a weekend. This particular bow is overbuilt by most standards, and comes in slightly heavier in physical weight than is most efficient (I’m referring to the Mass Principle as discussed in Volume 4 of the Traditional Bowyer’s Bible). However, the wide limbs allow more wood to do the tension work, thus adding a margin of safety that the bow will not raise a splinter and fracture. The longer length allows it to be pulled to 28”, and perhaps a bit more. You could always narrow the limbs some and compensate by making it a touch thicker to keep the weight up. This would reduce mass, but the further you go in this direction the more the moisture content, tiller, grain, early/late growth ratio, etc. will need to be spot on. (That turkey bow above is 44#@26”, measures 64” ntn, and weighs 18 ounces. It sure is nice to carry, as you hardly know it’s there. It also shoots slightly above average in speed for its weight @ drawlength.)
At the end of the day, a bow is a bendy stick with a string. Is this the prettiest bow? Nope. The fastest bow? Nope. But I haven’t met a turkey yet that stopped me mid-draw and begged me to shoot him with a prettier bow. “Dead as a doornail” is dead enough for me, and if I can do it for $12 and three or four hours of work, I’m in!
Good luck, ya’ll, and if you build one please post some pictures. Thanks for following! God Bless.
I loved this build_along. Thank you for you unselfishness in producing this. You have definitely given me confidence.... till the 28" thing came up.... :)
Much Aloha... :archer2:
Post by: 4est trekker on November 23, 2010, 05:28:00 PM
Post by: Rattus58 on November 23, 2010, 06:06:00 PM
Much Aloha... and have a great Thanksgiving..
PS... I've looked all over for that 6" riser post (search features) and cannot find it. Any idea where it is exactly... not trying to put you to any extra but I've searched every page and can't find what I think you are pointing me to.
Again, much Aloha... Tom
:archer2:
Post by: Pennsyltuckey pete on November 23, 2010, 09:22:00 PM
a couple of quick comments. I am building this one for fun. I decided that I was just going to build this quick like. Well I have. What is amazing is how nice it is coming out. The layout was a snap and the 15/32 continuous thickness makes initial building a breeze. I haven't gotten to the tiller tree yet but the floor tiller is SAWEEEEEET. All in all I have to classify this bow a waste of time! :eek: And Why you ask? It is such a nice bow I now want to build one and take my time on it and make it right! :bigsmyl:
When I started I questioned the grip but said follow the plan. The next one, and there will be a next one soon!!! will have the bulbous grip that I learned from Torges' book Hunting the Osage bow."
All in all I cant wait to finish this one and shoot it. My plan is to back the bow with a fake snake skin print that I got from Rudder Bows or brown burlap. But then again I may go with brown paper and paint it with paleo indian style art! Who knows. Guess I will have to stay tuned to figure that out.
now the pics. I seem to have misplaced a couple. Sorry.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00553.jpg)
I just had to go with cedar for the grip. I had it. oh well.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00549.jpg)
a quick rasping for the sides of the grip
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00551.jpg)
cleaned up on the spindle sander
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00557.jpg)
final thicknesing to 15/32 +- using scraper and caliper.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00555.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00554.jpg)
getting there!
pete
Post by: 4est trekker on November 23, 2010, 10:41:00 PM
Also, regarding the shorter 8" riser length, see page 21 as well.
:)
Post by: Pennsyltuckey pete on November 24, 2010, 05:01:00 PM
marking the tips using a thin paper template
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00500.jpg)
I had the thin blade on and just stayed away from the line. Man is that cut wavy!
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00503.jpg)
Surfoam to the rescue!
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00504-1.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00505.jpg)
As far as the tillering, I know what I am seeing. I am not going to say but I do see a problem that needs to be addressed.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00562.jpg)
pete
Post by: John Lipinski on November 24, 2010, 10:59:00 PM
Post by: hova on November 25, 2010, 12:36:00 AM
i agree with john. at first i thought the right limb was shorter , but after blowing the pic up , theres a definite hinge at the fade...
a gizmo should show you not to touch that at all , and just even it out. the other limb almost looks thicker.
looks better than my pyramid though!
-hov
Post by: K. Mogensen on November 25, 2010, 01:38:00 PM
Post by: Pennsyltuckey pete on November 26, 2010, 06:47:00 PM
I have been slowly working it taking my time but the edge of the bow let go.
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
There was a nick and it took off. I now have a two inch crack in one limb so it is going in the fire pile and I am going to get a new board tonight if I can find one at the home center. :D pete
Post by: Pennsyltuckey pete on November 28, 2010, 06:01:00 PM
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00574.jpg)
What I did was fill it with super glue and then clamped the crack shut. after allowing the glue to set for about 2 hours I pulled out some backing material. Decided to use the burlap. Keeping with the Tightbond III I laid a heavy bead on the bow, and then put the burlap on the bow and then added more glue to fill not only the thread of the burlap but also the gaps. I like the finished look. Next step was to trim it all up after the glue had dried for 12 hours.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc105/longbowpete/board%20bows/DSC00685.jpg)
Then To test the bow I took it out and pulled it back little by little. Finally at close to 28 inches I started letting arrows fly. All is going well. I then put the bow on the tiller tree and pulled it the full 29 inches that I shoot when I am collapsing my form. The bow shoots fine. I just have to detail the back with whatever artwork I decide on.
pete
Post by: hova on November 28, 2010, 07:09:00 PM
what did you start with , a 3/4" thick board? looks like you ended up taking a good bit off the limbs compared to the handle.
i think i may use the 4"x3/4" that i have layin around and whip one of these up . i like em more and more all the time.
-hov
Post by: hova on November 29, 2010, 02:07:00 PM
white oak.
OAL 66" (the board itself)
the bow I had drawn up is:
52" tip2tip
6" handle
2" fades
21" limbs.
I'm looking at maybe a inch or two more in length, but a knot has to be worked around . the excess will be used for tip overlays and handle area.
what is your experienced opinion? I'm mostly just comcerned with the length , of the limb and overall.
how wide do you think I should go?
thanks bud
-hov
Post by: 4est trekker on November 29, 2010, 05:00:00 PM
Post by: hova on November 29, 2010, 05:09:00 PM
now that I look at it though, i don't think the grain will like more than 52 or 53" max.
I may work with the handle/fade numbers to see if I can squeeze a little more limb out of it.
ever heard of using a furniture type veneer for backing ?
-hov
Post by: rover brewer on November 29, 2010, 06:19:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on November 29, 2010, 06:50:00 PM
Post by: hova on November 29, 2010, 08:23:00 PM
-hov
Post by: rover brewer on November 29, 2010, 09:25:00 PM
Post by: fujimo on November 29, 2010, 09:46:00 PM
if your board is 4" wide, why not build 2 halves and splice them, then glue the handle riser on afterwards.
then maybe glue a thin "back riser"( dunno what the correct name for it is!!!) i have seen that done with the limbs simply butt joined - but i would rather scarf join them( real easy to do!!!) -just to be safe. the idea is to avoid the complexity of a Z splice join- as you are trying to keep things as simple as possible.
that way you can get a full length bow, and really get a close match on the risers.( cut them right where the handles end on the limbs)
or make aatake down bow- i have used those sleeves from 3 rivers- i like em- some dont!!!
good luck
wayne
Post by: hova on November 29, 2010, 10:08:00 PM
I was pondering trying to do the pyramid layout, and narrow the handle, but not use a rigid riser. the superglued layers of leather would give me some bulk for the hand, but I think I'd have to be really careful as to my thickness and quasi fade area... I'm gonna hit the drawing board...
-hov
Post by: hova on November 29, 2010, 10:10:00 PM
I was pondering trying to do the pyramid layout, and narrow the handle, but not use a rigid riser. the superglued layers of leather would give me some bulk for the hand, but I think I'd have to be really careful as to my thickness and quasi fade area... I'm gonna hit the drawing board...
-hov
Post by: fujimo on November 29, 2010, 11:04:00 PM
all you do is taper the one side down - kinda like a wedge- then do the opposite wedge- and glue together- so that when viewed from the side there will be a diagonal line- but from front or back, just a short side to side line.
send me a fax no. and i will fax you a drawing first thing in the morning.
when i build boats, we work with a minimum of a 8:1 joint- ie. for each inch of thickness- there is 8 inches of length to the joint.
now that ratio may not work- because you dont want thejoint extending out into the working area of the limbs or fades!!!!!!!!- so feel free to shorten the ratio to match your handle- as this joint would be re-inforced by both the belly riser and the back riser. and would be more than strong enough- considering that it is also going to be a stiff handled bow.
if you were wanting to build a bend thru the handle bow- i would certianally Z splice it.
they are not to hard to do- but i would glue them with epoxy or urac.
i really like urac- so easy to use- easy to clean up with water- easy to get it to set- and has some good gap filling properties- i glue all my backings on with it.
regards
wayne
Post by: hova on November 30, 2010, 01:07:00 AM
im gonna go do some paint work cause a picture is a much better narrator than me...
Post by: hova on November 30, 2010, 01:44:00 AM
im also curious if it would work without a pin , if i ran the scarf a little longer into the opposing joint.
id have to slice into the fade though if i tried that , so i cant say its possible with my current design idea.
(http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx186/iamjaguarpaw/td2.jpg)
so basically , im thinking if i can somehow split the board i have (handsaw is all thats available right now) , then i might be able to make a little heavier/more realiable pyramid , and possibly with the option of takedown...
come to think of it , the sawmill had blocks of exotics for 4.99 each... hmmmmmm...
-hov
Post by: hova on November 30, 2010, 02:04:00 AM
(http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx186/iamjaguarpaw/TDV2.jpg)
Post by: fujimo on November 30, 2010, 09:25:00 AM
i wouldnt worry about the pin, it you are glueing on the back and belly risers over the scarf- as i remember one guy butted the two limbs and then glued on the two reisers, and for his50lb bow it worked fine. but i would rather scarf the limbs, just make the scarf as long as you can, and stay outta the fades-
do the scarf before you cut the side shapes on the handle area.
after dry trim up the sides, and glue on the risers.
because the faces are tapered, clamp a block at each limb tip on your bench, cos as you tighten the clamp(dont over tighten) on the joint they will wanna slide apart- two tapers lubed up with glue!!!!- so the end blocks will stop that.
draw a line down the center of each limb, so that you can line them up with a string, or long straight edge befor youy glue up.
and either draw around the two limbs, or make some register marks, so that when you glue and clamp, they will be perfectly lined up- remember your clamp will be in the way so you wont be able to see once you glue it.
scarf joints are incredibly strong- and on the tests done for boatbuilding. the scarf is stronger than the surrounding wood- think of a 50' mast- they are allscarfed- and flex plenty!!!!
i would keep the back riser nice and slim and pretty- no need to make the handle huge and bulbous and unwieldly, all you wanna do is stop the end points of the scarf lifting- and the joint starting to fail.
it is just added security, in case your handle ends up flexind slightly .
but keep it stiff- and it will be good.
wayne
Post by: hova on November 30, 2010, 01:13:00 PM
the more i think about it , its something i want to do , but maybe with something worth all the time.
i have been kicking it around in my head all morning , and what i am thinking of , is getting a block of purpleheart or some other exotic that the local sawmill has , and making a sort of mini riser-takedown tube sorta thingy...then i would make the limbs so that the fade was glued to the limb , and the scarf cut would be where the handle of a normal pyramid is , but the two pieces would slide into the tube , locking them thusly. thats where the idea for the pin came into play. i would probably make the pin one of the exotics that would be in the handle.
my main issue is the fact that hollowing a chunk of something hard as purpleheart would probably be horrible. basically what i came up with to solve this , is split the outer shell in the middle of the belly and back , longways. then cut a half a square into each halve. then basically make a smaller sleeve out of phenolic or something similar , into square tubing. the only difference is the inside of this would be formed to the male ends of the limbs.
it would be a lot of work , and im sure theres easier ways , but i want to work with cherry , i can get it locally , but grain may be tough to find long.
i think with the board i have , im going to go ahead and make it 53"tip to tip , with the 4est glued on recurve tips , but carve some brush nocks into it. make it a brush stalker.
picking up a new straightedge and some other small tools today to start cutting into this stick.
-hov
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 06, 2010, 06:00:00 PM
Post by: fish n chicks on December 07, 2010, 10:35:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ricky Wallace:Bansaws can make or break your bow. lol. That's not literal enough is it? Plus, where are the pics?
Let me go ahead and add mine!! Started working on my version a couple days ago,I went and bought a new bandsaw blade {10" craftsman} Set it up,2 inches in,blade broke. Went and got another blade,2 more inches,blade broke. Said lots of bad words,glad no women or children were in the shop,,So i decided to cut the side profile with my jigsaw,{LONG BLADES} And my scroll saw. Then finish off with the drawknife,scraper ect,,That is not the recomended way to do this!It took almost all day and I still aint done.The only mistake I made I think, was I had to go about an eighth of an inch thinner than the original plans,Yall think that will be OK? I hope so,cause until I get that new bandsaw I have been wanting im not doing another one of these! I normally build the Sam Harper style red oak bows,This one is an adventure!! But it is fun!!! Rick
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 07, 2010, 12:24:00 PM
Post by: hova on December 07, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
and update on mine , is the siyah arms are cut and angled , they need shaped and glued , and some black locust is drying , and im going to work on a short skinny pyramid , but bend through the handle.
lets see some pics wallace!
-hov
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 07, 2010, 09:12:00 PM
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/PICT1097.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/PICT1098.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/PICT1101.jpg)
I know,it looks strange,,I cut the handle 1 1/2 inches and immediatly had a problem.So I cut the arrow pass which I prefer anyway,and it is still 3/4 inch thick at that point.If it dont work I have more boards! The little red one I made for my granddaughter.
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 08, 2010, 07:04:00 PM
Post by: hova on December 08, 2010, 09:19:00 PM
-hov
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 09, 2010, 03:01:00 AM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on December 09, 2010, 09:57:00 AM
Great tutorial. :thumbsup:
Post by: hova on December 09, 2010, 10:40:00 AM
Post by: Aznboi3644 on December 09, 2010, 12:22:00 PM
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 09, 2010, 03:59:00 PM
Post by: Jeff Smith on December 09, 2010, 05:22:00 PM
Post by: hova on December 09, 2010, 05:54:00 PM
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 09, 2010, 07:04:00 PM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on December 09, 2010, 07:08:00 PM
My cousin did that in shop class when he was about 16 years old and they had to graft skin and everything. Man, you got to be careful with those jointers.......they'll get ya!
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 09, 2010, 07:55:00 PM
Post by: Aznboi3644 on December 09, 2010, 08:28:00 PM
I would say glue on 1/8" lams and build up the thickness.
Post by: hova on December 09, 2010, 09:09:00 PM
-hov
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 09, 2010, 09:56:00 PM
Post by: hova on December 09, 2010, 11:49:00 PM
if youre talking 20# or so , id say you should be good. any more than that , i would throw no less than an 1/8" on the back and belly ,just to be safe. id end up rasping most of the back overlay off , just so you had a little extra buildup where your pass is. on the back , id leave as much there as you can. provided you will need to shape and do things like that , but i wouldnt glue the strip on , then make my grip smaller than what you just glued on...know what i mean?
-hov
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 10, 2010, 12:03:00 AM
Post by: hova on December 10, 2010, 12:44:00 AM
i personally dont think you should have a whole lot to worry about...you even using a scale or just winging it?
-hov
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 10, 2010, 01:09:00 AM
Post by: hova on December 10, 2010, 11:56:00 AM
lots of people here use it for accents in risers. when you see black or white stripes that go through the riser , thats usually phenolic. its pretty nice stuff.
and yeah , id go with walnut too , just to b safe. cedar can be used from time to time , but im not familiar enough with the different types to recommend using it...
good luck and make sure to post pics as ya go!
-hov
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on December 10, 2010, 12:12:00 PM
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 10, 2010, 06:13:00 PM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on December 10, 2010, 06:22:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ricky Wallace:Too bad you don't live closer, you could come over and take home an armload of off fall from my staves.
I dont have acsess to osage without ordering it from someone,{im cheap,,] I got the walnut glued up today,Ill work it tommorow and post pics. Hopefully ill get off some arrows as well.
Post by: hova on December 10, 2010, 08:22:00 PM
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 11, 2010, 04:44:00 PM
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/DSCF2270800x600.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/DSCF2271800x600.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/DSCF2272800x600.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/DSCF2274800x600.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/DSCF2276800x600.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/DSCF2277800x600.jpg)
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on December 11, 2010, 06:02:00 PM
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 11, 2010, 06:41:00 PM
Post by: fujimo on December 11, 2010, 06:48:00 PM
well done, these are prettiest gaggle of board bows i have ever seen!!!!
well done to 4est too!!!!
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 11, 2010, 07:42:00 PM
Post by: fujimo on December 11, 2010, 07:58:00 PM
wayne
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on December 11, 2010, 09:43:00 PM
Post by: Red Tailed Hawk on December 11, 2010, 10:13:00 PM
4est has put together a great build along. :thumbsup:
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 11, 2010, 11:30:00 PM
Post by: fujimo on December 12, 2010, 03:04:00 PM
thanks
wayne
Post by: hova on December 12, 2010, 03:38:00 PM
still considering sinew backing it just for safety , but i think an eighth or sixteenth of hickry should do me up just right. im going to just end up tillering it as far as i can , and short draw it. if i can get my hickry sliced thin enough , i may do some small brushy's.
-hov
Post by: 4est trekker on December 12, 2010, 03:44:00 PM
Keep 'em coming, guys, and be sure to read all of the updates throughout. They include an 8" riser (which is way better in my opinion) and a better handle design that's not so beefy and chunky. The one I did for the build-along is designed to be WAY overbuild to prevent problems there, which is common in first pyramids. However, it's heavier, bulkier, blockier, etc. than need be.
:campfire:
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 12, 2010, 03:46:00 PM
Post by: hova on December 12, 2010, 06:04:00 PM
and yeah , i thought a buck a pack was good even if it sucked. it sucks royally. cheap tp has a higher grit rating...
need to pick up some moar clamps too...yay harbor freight..
-hov
Post by: Jeff Smith on December 12, 2010, 06:55:00 PM
just to ensure no more accidents you may consider placing the bow on the tiller tree or stick and putting a flat piece of wood same length as the riser on the hadle area then flexing the limbs to full draw. If the area under the riser shows daylight the grip is flexing and it may very well blow up right at the cut out shelf.D bows are supposed to flex through the handle and have no cuts to create weak points so there is a big difference.Good luck and keep asking questions.
Jeff
Post by: DLH on December 14, 2010, 12:44:00 PM
Post by: Aznboi3644 on December 15, 2010, 02:17:00 PM
A soft wood will compress and possibly fail. I'd use a hard wood to protect the string from cutting into the back.
Post by: hova on December 15, 2010, 04:14:00 PM
-hov
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 16, 2010, 02:20:00 AM
Post by: hova on December 16, 2010, 10:58:00 PM
going to back the white oak with hickory. working on a skinny pyramid bend through the handle ...
-hov
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 17, 2010, 02:03:00 PM
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/PICT1118.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/PICT1117.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/PICT1119.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa398/wall5834/PICT1120.jpg)
Post by: Red Tailed Hawk on December 17, 2010, 03:22:00 PM
Post by: red hill on December 17, 2010, 03:47:00 PM
Stan
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 17, 2010, 04:17:00 PM
Post by: Red Tailed Hawk on December 17, 2010, 04:56:00 PM
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 17, 2010, 09:49:00 PM
Post by: Hilton on December 29, 2010, 09:52:00 PM
Post by: fish n chicks on December 30, 2010, 12:02:00 PM
Post by: hova on December 30, 2010, 01:46:00 PM
-h0v
Post by: Red Tailed Hawk on December 30, 2010, 10:30:00 PM
The overall length of the bow is 75". I know that's long but my draw is 31.5". I am not planning on backing this bow because the grain looks good,"would like to hear any suggestions if you think not backing the bow would be a mistake".
In the pics I got the bow down to 23" on a just barely braced string.
Still got a long way to go with my draw length.
Any Tiller input would be appreciated, How's it looking so far?
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/lead955/DecemberChristmas2010139.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/lead955/DecemberChristmas2010138.jpg)
Post by: tenbrook on December 30, 2010, 11:44:00 PM
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 31, 2010, 02:18:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by fish n chicks:I got it printed out and in its own little folder!!
It's been said before, but this thread needs to be made permanent somewhere. Maybe not all the responses like they do in the "how-to" section, but definitely made for forever. It would be a huge loss for future bowyers.
Post by: 1oldbowguy on December 31, 2010, 09:25:00 AM
Post by: 4est trekker on December 31, 2010, 09:31:00 AM
It looks like you followed my updated advice on handle construction and riser length. :)
Keep the pictures coming!
Post by: Ricky Wallace on December 31, 2010, 10:28:00 AM
Post by: Hilton on December 31, 2010, 07:37:00 PM
The bow looks great! How did you design your handle?
Post by: Red Tailed Hawk on January 02, 2011, 08:18:00 PM
really sends them arrows with authority, much faster than I expected. Still need to put a finish on "tru oil" and arrow rest.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/lead955/December-January2010-2011037.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/lead955/December-January2010-2011036.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/lead955/December-January2010-2011035.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/lead955/December-January2010-2011034.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/lead955/December-January2010-2011038.jpg)
Post by: KellyG on January 02, 2011, 10:29:00 PM
Post by: fish n chicks on January 03, 2011, 11:07:00 AM
The other thing I would suggest is to get your hands on some boiled linseed oil. You can get a decent sized can from the big boy toy stores, for lik3 7$. It's what's used on gun stocks, and will bring the grain out of your wood naturally. Just apply about 10 coats every 20 minutes or so, and let dry for a week till the smell is gone, then spray with lacquer from a can a few times. Professional looking and on the cheap, and it looks natural.
Otherwise, you've got yourself a sweet shooter that came from your own two hands. Cheers!
Post by: kountzer0 on January 05, 2011, 11:21:00 PM
I just finished my daughter's kid-bow from the same material. 47" NTN 3/4" wide at grip with a straight taper to tips. 7lb at 18" for her 7yr old frame. Belly taper according to tillering stick tales (what it seemed to need). I did make a few mistakes, which shows in the 1" set, but it shoots and hasn't broken (yet)!
I got paranoid and backed it early on (at floor tiller) with linen from the fabric store - set in wood glue.
I'm going to try my bow next following the pyramid pattern used here. I don't have a bandsaw so I was thinking of using my router table to remove the bulk off the belly. Just throwing that out there for those who's tool situation might be similar. I'll try to remember to get pics of my set-up etc as I go.
Chomping at the bit to get started, but it will have to wait till this weekend before I start (assuming I can find a decent board).
Thanks again!
Post by: hova on January 08, 2011, 01:04:00 PM
i use a sur-form and files/rasps. anything more than that is gravy.
lets see that daughters bow.
-hov
Post by: kountzer0 on January 08, 2011, 08:22:00 PM
I'll post a picture or two tomorrow.
I just recieved the dacron, serving and 6 kid arrows form an online supplier, so I made her an endless loop type string. The upper limb is bending quite a bit more than the lower - but hey it didn't break - which astounds me still.
I also acquired a beauty of a hickory board - almost all heart wood with enough really really straight grain for 2 2" bow staves! A paltry $12 and it was mine. :)
Post by: kountzer0 on January 09, 2011, 01:03:00 PM
On the tillering stick at 18" draw...the lighting is kinda funny...
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/kountzer0/PTDC0009.jpg)
On the floor (the tiles are 12"
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/kountzer0/PTDC0010.jpg)
I scraped through the finish on the handle for a glue-on arrow shelf which is in process now.
Thanks for all the great posts!
Post by: 1oldbowguy on January 09, 2011, 01:54:00 PM
Post by: KellyG on January 09, 2011, 10:06:00 PM
Post by: paparick on January 15, 2011, 02:03:00 AM
Post by: 4est trekker on January 15, 2011, 08:12:00 AM
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/boardbowbuildalong.html
Post by: hova on January 15, 2011, 10:53:00 AM
it might come in under weight , but the 50" pyramid that is 2.5 at the fades to .5 at the tips , needs some good reinforcement at the handlle , or it will end up breaking or being a 10# kids bow... i love the way it looks , but im not sure if i should have shaped the handle before adding overlays and whatnot...
-hov
Post by: rover brewer on January 15, 2011, 05:00:00 PM
Post by: sawtoothscream on January 18, 2011, 06:17:00 PM
thanks the bow looks awsome
Post by: Aznboi3644 on January 19, 2011, 09:29:00 PM
Very easy to tiller..You only have half the limbs to scrape. I've made one 50@26 with moderate set. Still a fast shooter because of the very low mass tips
Post by: twitchstick on January 21, 2011, 01:52:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on January 22, 2011, 08:08:00 AM
Post by: twitchstick on January 22, 2011, 11:05:00 AM
Post by: DaveKing on January 22, 2011, 04:37:00 PM
I didn't take any pictures during the basic building steps but I did make a bit of a video when I first tested the bow (linked in here).
I used a 1 x 3 instead of a 1x4 and left the limbs about .480".
Here's a video of the first shots and a little of the bow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3u1mWoIwXI
Post by: Red Tailed Hawk on January 22, 2011, 05:14:00 PM
Post by: DaveKing on January 22, 2011, 05:38:00 PM
Post by: 1oldbowguy on January 22, 2011, 08:23:00 PM
Post by: paparick on January 24, 2011, 09:26:00 AM
Post by: matts2 on February 11, 2011, 10:57:00 AM
Matt
Post by: Aznboi3644 on February 11, 2011, 07:27:00 PM
Post by: elkhunter1 on March 02, 2011, 01:37:00 PM
Post by: elkhunter1 on March 02, 2011, 01:45:00 PM
Post by: Dave Bowers on March 03, 2011, 09:28:00 PM
Pretty everyone that posted pics was in your shoe's
Go grad a board and go for it
Post by: k-hat on March 08, 2011, 05:14:00 PM
Post by: WestTexan on March 08, 2011, 11:17:00 PM
Post by: k-hat on March 09, 2011, 10:08:00 AM
Post by: hardwaymike on March 09, 2011, 03:40:00 PM
Post by: 4est trekker on March 09, 2011, 04:10:00 PM
Post by: k-hat on March 09, 2011, 04:11:00 PM
Jigsaw takes a lotta wood fast, so if you do be super careful and slow and leave plenty of line. Most would probably say don't do it. I used one on my second bow for the handle cutout like your saying, wound up going a little to far in on the back side of the handle, but was able to correct it with the shaping. I use a small curved stanley sureform for the handle profile (don't have a good rasp yet). Cost about $5 at depot and takes some elbow grease. Maybe do a practice run on a scrap piece b4 you go for it? I've only got 4 bows under my belt, so take it with a shaker of salt :dunno:
Post by: hardwaymike on March 10, 2011, 08:11:00 AM
Post by: crgibson on March 10, 2011, 03:03:00 PM
I have a oak board w/ good grain that I had salvaged. It had brad nail holes in it so I worked around them and and ended up with 68"long 9" riser, 4 1/2" handle, 1 3/4 fades to 1/2" tips. Cause this is not as wide at the fades as your build along bow and I have changed the handle size do I make my limb thickness the same 15/32 or thicker.. Thanks your friend Chuck
Post by: crgibson on March 12, 2011, 11:54:00 AM
Post by: 4est trekker on March 12, 2011, 03:21:00 PM
Hope this helps. Best of luck.
Regards
Post by: crgibson on March 15, 2011, 09:39:00 PM
Hope the pix copy here it go's Thanks Chuck (http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff371/enterprise401/th_about1inchset.jpg?t=1300238689)
Post by: 4est trekker on March 15, 2011, 09:57:00 PM
Post by: crgibson on March 16, 2011, 12:47:00 PM
Post by: Johnny_Cash on March 16, 2011, 02:08:00 PM
Post by: stretch2 on March 18, 2011, 05:00:00 PM
(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss185/stretch2/DSCN0864.jpg)
(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss185/stretch2/DSCN0865.jpg)
(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss185/stretch2/DSCN0866.jpg)
(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss185/stretch2/DSCN0867.jpg)
(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss185/stretch2/DSCN0868.jpg)
Post by: Johnny_Cash on March 20, 2011, 09:28:00 PM
Post by: crgibson on March 28, 2011, 12:52:00 AM
I just finished my red oak bow. I followed 4est build along but did make some changes. See my specs a few post back and 4est answers. So got an old bathroom scale and got some approx weights
40# @ 28"
45# 29"
47# @ 30"
So I did the full 1/2" thick for the entire length of the bow like 4est suggested. Over 100+ shots so far My first shots I only pulled around 24" for awhile now i'm up to full draw between 29-30". Its going to a 3d shoot this coming weekend we'll see if it holds up. Oh by the way my brace height is at 7 1/4 now.
Take care, Crg