Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Trumpkin the Dwarf on December 29, 2017, 06:28:00 PM
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Alright Gents, I need some advice. As I was wandering the halls of my office at work, (being very productive and industrious, of course) I caught myself scheming up ways to make my arrows a hair lighter, so the trajectory would be a bit flatter, so I could shoot a bit farther. Then it hit me, that if I were simply sneakier I could be more deadly without taking longer shots! Whazzat, you say? Woodsmanship, not Ultra-Extreme-Armageddon-Elite-UFOC arrows and gizzmos? The heresy! :biglaugh:
Just bear me out, you techno savvy tradgangers! As I pondered this new thought, I started thinking about ways to quiet my gear even more. I even started assembling a checklist of to-do's. But the real lightning bolt, my 'Eureka!' moment was when I realized that all tip-top athletes and kung-fu gurus have an amazing amount of awareness and control over their bodies. Now, I try to be stealthy, and try to move slowly or not at all, while out in the woods. But quite frankly, I stink at it. I get busted far more from movement than scent. Which gets us to the real point of this post.
How do you, experts or otherwise, work to be more in control and more self aware of your noises and movements? What steps do you take, ****that do NOT involve gear****, to become more like a ghost (or a lump on a log)? Anyone meditate to become more focused and in-tune with the pace of the natural world? Listen to nothing but classical music? Never listen to music at all? Make it a point of deep breathing thrice between steps while still hunting? I'm looking for ideas that go beyond the physical, and into the realm of the psyche and subconscious thought. Lets get back to our loincloth and self bow roots with this one!
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I don't know how to "meditate". Self medicate, yes. It takes practice and a bit of come down time for most of us to learn to sit still. You may THINK you are being still.....
No phone. No book. No carving. Nothing but sitting. Close your eyes once in a while and try to listen to the cells of the trees growing
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Actually. Hearing, then learning what made that noise and why, is a great tool.
A cat walks thru the woodlot and the chipmunks make a certain sound. A hawk sneaking thru gets a different sound. You learn this by being out there, paying attention, and listening. If a bird is "telling on you" near the end of day, do you think the deer know about it ?
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sound like a critter when you walk
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Become more aware of yourself and your surroundings at all times. Slow down your entire lifestyle. Live in the moment and appreciate that moment for what it is. Thinking about the past is depression. Thinking about the future is anxiety. Just be where you are.
So in the woods...whatever step you are taking is the most important step you've ever taken. Whatever breath you've drawn is the most important breath you've ever drawn. Move with purpose.
In a nutshell, that is meditation. Just being at peace with who you are, what you feel and everything in your life at that very moment.
And that was your daily zen lesson.
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Tai Chi? Teaches balance, slow movement and awareness as well as breathing and points towards meditation. It's also the kind of thing you can do any time you have some spare time, and apart from maybe getting some classes doesn't cost you anything.
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I had a room mate in college who practiced Tai Chi. He had impeccable balance, as I recall. That might not be a bad idea!
I actually like my new idea of a deep breathing routine betwixt steps while still hunting... 5 breaths, step. 2 breaths, step. 9 breaths... you get the picture. I may try it tomorrow!
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Not on this forum, but caught heat on another when I suggested there is a difference between a hunter and a shooter. A hunter being able to close the gap for an "up close" shot. :thumbsup:
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Every good pool player i watched was capable of making long difficult shots. However, most good pool players line themselves up for position on the table for easy chip shots. This equates to a good bowhunter. Some folks crow about how far they can kill deer with their bow, i liked to crow about how close i can kill them
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Not an expert always trying to improve. If you listen to your to what's around you knowing the difference between a squirrel moving or a deer. Look with your eyes and not your whole head. Getting as comfortable as possible when you set up so you don't have to move around. One of my pet peeves is noisy clothing. Years ago I had a big doe at about 6yards and when I tried drawing she hear my clothes and spooked. I have fix the problem and have took about a dozen whitetails now under 8 yards. I have tried to teach my kids you got to become part of your surroundings.
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Originally posted by BrushWolf:
I have tried to teach my kids you got to become part of your surroundings.
This is the part I'm trying to develop. I know how to pick good spots to sit, or sneak through. But I don't fit in as well as I could. I got busted last night because I was just plain fidgeting around while settling into my blind. I'd only been there a few minutes, so I wasn't expecting anything to be that close. Had I been tuned in a little better, I think I'd have had an idea the doe was there.
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Don't step on sticks, and stay outta crunchy leaves.
That's about as far as I get with it. :goldtooth:
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Imagine to yourself, that the game you are after is holding an AK47 and is looking for you as hard as you are looking back.
Bet you get quieter!!
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Interesting topic,When I’m hunting I’m always thinking I need to be more like a cat ..still have a long way to go,lol
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I am a stand hunter, because I am simply too noisy for spot and stalk. Scouting is key. You have got to identify exactly where the deer prefer to come through your hunting area. Setting the stand for a close shot with consideration of wind direction is important. Once on the stand sit still and be quiet. Let them come to you, then shoot straight.
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I hunt from the ground always, either still hunting or from an improvised blind. I have an acronym that runs through my mind to accomplish, as best I can, becoming part of my surrounds : SSDS.
Slow - no emergency here, don't rush.
Steady - stay balanced, no herky-jerky movements
Deliberate - every step, move, etc. has a reason and a purpose. No useless, extraneous movement or noise.
Small - Focus on what is close, see how you are fitting in. Are the animals reacting to me? I want to blend into the woods, not have the woods enter my sphere. Far will become close if I focus small.
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Anyone ever try shape shifting or know anything about it?
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One of my most useful learning experiences along this line was playing paintball with my son and his friends. I was the hare, they the hounds. Looking at the world from the prey point of view was VERY eye opening. I heard they approach distinctly, and most shocking was how little of them I needed to see to see them. Just their clothing winking on and off through the weeds gave me their exact location. 20 years ago and sticks in my mind today.
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Originally posted by outbackbob48:
Anyone ever try shape shifting or know anything about it?
I think that is what my father was doing when he referred to undergoing a metamorphosis when he hunted or fished. He affirms that he "becomes the buck" or "becomes the trout." My brother and I believe this is not a genetic condition, or at least is a recessive gene.
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well, nice interesting topic and good question, that I think those of us that do it take it a little for granted, for those who run "busier-cellphone infested" lives. As one who practiced martial arts for 30 years and what I learned in the Marine Corps.
When I stalk this is what I do. First, take watch/cell and through time away. Your only limit is legal shooting time. If you cann't do this, then do not stalk. You may think, I have a few hours, I will stalk through this woods, then you are looking at clock not game, and that trophy will purposely move just enough to eat up 4 hours of your time.
Next, take everything in. Move 10 yards into "woods", lean against a tree, and take everything in, feel the direction of wind, what animals are chirping, listen to sound of woods. You will be suprised at once you are tuned in, and the sound changes it will alert you, more.
three, carry bino's and scrutinize everything ahead of you, only move when you know it is clear, not maybe. It is amazing if we listen to our predatorial instinct how much it works. Listen to your gut, when you noticed movement, or that just doesnt seem right.
four, do not move if you have experienced the above. Find out what it is, wait and study it out. do not let your mind say "nothing", wait to verify what it is. Could be a deer, could be a coyote tracking a deer, maybe a racoon (during day sign storm coming). Know what it around you, not speculate.
five, when you move, plan it (route selection). Do not walk like on street, lift your leg, lead with ball of foot, not heel. When you first do this, you will get tired and bored. Once, plan where your foot will go, move slow and steady, plant, slowly add weight, then move the next leg. Do not move more than three steps, then scan your area again (be amazed at what world 3 steps can open). Move as if you are drawing your bow, at game. Slow and deliberate.
six, know the wind and use it.
seven, Once you find game, good job. after taking 5 seconds to celebrate, start to plan your approach, study the route and find limits. Only move when you can. Plan on rest of day if needed.
eight, the whole time just relax, listen and feel the woods, take it all in. This is suppose to be fun and relaxing. Slow down, see a stump/down tree, sit down and relax.
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What rough run said.
S-L-O-W D-O-W-N!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think of it like a basketball player getting in "the zone". Total focus on small details. The toughest part for most of us is slowing down enough to "fit in".
I don't always achieve it while hunting, but am amazed when I do. I think people's dependence on "gear/devices" hinders rather than helps getting into this "predator mode". JMO
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I got to thinking about this. It brings me back to my 9 year old twins. My boy is very alert he often see things I don't. I sometimes question whether or not something is there but most time he is right. Just like today he said hey dad come look out the window. He said there's a crow in that tree. It took me a couple of minutes to spot it and it wasn't very easy to see. If I take him out and tell him I hear or see something he is and still and looking to. He has what I have referred to as a predator instinct. Now my girl does well but sometimes lacks the same drive. Don't get me wrong they both do good for there age. Not that any of this helped.
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I was taught American Karate by a former govrnment trainer. Balnce and eye control are key ingredients. If your eyes are splashing all over the place, so is the recognition. This also applies to shooting. I like to practice until I get to a state of casual accuracy. Ground hunting with that same state of mind, allows me a certain amount of luck. The last time I went out hunting during regular archery season I had 18 deer from a few feet to 20 yards away from me for about a half hour before one came up from behind and gave a good close sniff. I was sitting on a strap on tree seat with no other cover than the tree I was strapped to. I tempted myself on a lesser buck and let down, my motion and the white glassed bow spooked no deer, even the couple that were less than ten yards from me ignored me. Now that it is ten below outside, I regret not shooting the short tined 8 pointer. 12 pointer fever, never quite got a shot at him. When it gets above zero, I will go out and see if my Zen can keep me from freezing to death.
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Well, I decided to still hunt a bedding area mid day today. I was tired of sitting in a blind, and didn't want to leave completely only to return for the evening sit.
Just as I was feeling like I was getting in a groove of really slowing down and glassing repeatedly, I got busted... 2 steps after glassing the brush that wound up being a doe's hiding spot! :knothead:
After that I got busted again! The second time I think it's because I was making too much noise. Oh well, practice makes perfect, right? Still, whitetails pick up movement SO well! It's ridiculous!
Rant over. Also, pavan, can you elaborate on the "eyes splashing" comment? I didn't quite understand what you are getting at with that idea.
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A while back Paul Brunner wrote an article on still hunting in Trad Bowhunter. It was very informative and has helped change the way I still hunt. I still suck at it but I'm a work in progress. I'm way too impatient. I always squirrel hunted with the mentality of covering more ground equals more in the pot and it worked for me. Sort of like a coyote covering ground. Not so with a longbow chasing whitetails. I have to change my whole mentality when in sneak mode, limit amount of steps between stops and look and listen longer. Some places just aren't good for still hunting period. Out west chasing elk is much much easier to stalk than these briar patches where I live in Ohio.
Thats my 2 cents!
John
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Two things have really helped me. Toddster touched on the first one above, I get to the woods 10-15 minutes earlier. Once inside the wood line, I just stop and let the world slip away and transition to "hunting mode". I found that this helps put a stop to those movements that I used to make the first few minutes in the stand while calming down /getting comfortable. It is amazing how often there will be deer right on top of you right after you get there when your blind is in a good spot.
Secondly, I started doing yoga three years ago after it was recommendended to me by a physical therapist to help with the aches and pains of a life filled with football, wrestling and tough living. I have found that this not only took a lot of the aches and pains away, it helped me control myself when stalking. I remember being spotted by game and needing to "freeze" in awkward positions in the past during the stare down. Needless to say, in the past I would lose the stare down when I could no longer hold still, stand on one foot, or lean awkwardly. Now, due to the yoga, I can hold those positions much longer and win the stare downs more often.
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Trumpkin (Mr. "the Dwarf???"),
This is a really cool subject and thread you started. I think it's going to help A LOT of us who hunt on the ground. Coming back to archery hunting after years of using my smoke pole, this is just the kinda thing I need to learn, and re-learn. Thanks again for discussin' this......
An old timer who I went to church with in Sandy let me hunt his property many years ago. The advice he gave me for still hunting was pretty much like above, and like you alluded to.
1. When you walk pick your route, carefully.
2. Take only one or two steps at a time. Stop, carefully look AND see your surroundings, breathe, and simply wait. You may only cover 40 yds. in a day. So be it.
3. Try not to move your hands or move your legs/feet ANY MORE than necessary.
4. Spend more time sitting/standing/looking than moving. Try to let the game move to you, rather than you move to it, if possible.
5. Some advice I read somewhere: When you have to cover distances, or move through an open area void of cover, to be able to get where you want to begin "primitive stealth mode", go ahead and move quickly to get to some cover/shade/brush/whatever. But avoid this first, if possible.
This is all largely advice I'm echoing from posts above here; nothing new. Just helps to re-iterate it sometimes. Hope this helps.
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My most successful stalk was on a flock of turkeys that were in a corner of a food-plot/field. It wasn't COMPLETELY successful, because I didn't actually let an arrow fly, but I got close enough to... The thing that I did to make it so far (about 70 yds. hands & knees crawl) without being busted? I imagined all of those nature videos that I've watched through the years of coyotes & big cats... how they moved in the open, without being detected? Tapping into your inner predator & mimicking their movements makes all of the difference in the world, to me. I just watched one last night of a bobcat moving in on some ducks in the Rocky Mtns. It was a great reminder & perfect example of how to move like a predator.
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In Iowa I found the best way to have turkeys in close ranges when still hunting or sit here for a while and then sit there hunting, is to have no turkey tag in your pocket. They are dumb, but they have x-ray vision and can read. 'Eye splashing'. That was the term the ex-cia trainer used when people look, but they do not see. How to use depth perception with more acuity.
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Originally posted by toddster:
[QB]
Next, take everything in. Move 10 yards into "woods", lean against a tree, and take everything in, feel the direction of wind, what animals are chirping, listen to sound of woods. You will be suprised at once you are tuned in, and the sound changes it will alert you, more.
After reading this excerpt from toddster I thought about how I often drive to a nearby park for a lunchtime power nap and turn down the radio so I can just barely hear it. After a few minutes of relaxing and getting tuned into my "zone" I find I have to turn it down again because the volume is enhanced just by the change in mind set. This is similar to what can happen when getting tuned in after entering the woods to enhance the imput of what's happening around you.
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Watch a cat or dog ( a pointing dog, not one that chases) go to work. I got to watch a snake hunt, right in front of me. It was incredible. There are times to move fast and times to move not at all.
The woods have sounds all the time ('cept, seemingly, in winter). Sit and listen and watch things unfold. Its fun to get to the point that you hear a sound, know what critter made it, and kinda what it meant.
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I'm no expert on hunting -- more of a nature lover. I've done 2 seasons of archery only and have had 0 shot opportunities. So I'm more of a learner here than an expert.
An author I like suggests practicing "animal forms." Cats (lions, bobcats) walk slow & watch for movement before starting their stalk. Once they stalk, their movements are incredibly precise & minimalist. It's impressive to watch. Taking a cue from Kung Fu & many primitive cultures, the art of actually trying to move like an animal teaches you a lot about your body and about that particular animal. Getting on all fours & attempting to walk like a stalking bobcat is tough. Doing that for 50 yards has me more out of breath than jogging (it's like doing burpees for several minutes). Likewise, I can't even count the number of times I've run up behind deer, coyotes, bobcats, turkeys while running trails. But that's the same tactic used by canines to survey a wide area for prey. The author also advocates practicing prey movements as well to better understand their life, habits, fears, advantages, etc.
One of my favorite games to play with the cub scouts lately is "mountain lion stalks deer." It's like red light/green light. But the "deer" has to act like he's feeding & then looks up when he hears a sound. The other boys are trying to stalk in on him and if they're moving when he looks up, they have to go back to the start or the "deer" gets to trot a few yards further back from the lions. The boys really get into it. It's just a fun little kids game but I think putting your whole body into the game helps sink certain concepts in far better than reading. I play it right along with them. A couple savvy kids have even learned to crawl behind me as cover. Smart boys!
My son got me into bird watching. I know at least once that birds have helped me find deer that I would have otherwise ignored. I've gotten to know the behaviors of some of the birds where I hunt well enough to know where I'm going to get busted by agitated birds or under what conditions a bird will either sound the alarm or calm down from an alarm. That game in itself can keep me occupied most of the day for several days on end.
By far, the biggest revelation I've had this past season is just how to find and follow deer trails. Trails are quieter than off-trail. The sticks and leaves come pre-trampled. Something just clicked this year and now I find and can follow them much further. And they're starting to make sense about why the deer are using those particular trails. Out here, where I have miles upon miles of wilderness to explore (and so do the deer), being able to quietly get from one spot to the next without any marked trails is a big help.
Great thread for those of us still learning here. Thanks to all for posting.
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This is great stuff everyone! I need to sit and watch some animal planet soon. Keep the suggestions rolling in, and I suspect some of this plays into better shooting as well. Slowing my body down should help slow my nerves and stay calm when the pressure is on.
By the way, I tried counting 100 deep breaths on stand yesterday. In through the nose, as deep as possible, out through mouth. I found it was easier to sit still for long periods of time. And I had deer in range, but no shot angle!
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So, I had another thought recently, that was sparked by an old thread in the archives. The topic was whether or not deer can smell tension.
Anyone believe this to be the case? Or not the case? I can't tell you what I think, because when I do happen to be close to deer, I usually find myself fairly calm after the initial discovery. It seems that the biggest challenge in all of this is detecting the deer first.
Once I do that, it's very rare to get picked off.
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Having a good, immediately accessible binoc is useful because, like yosemite pointed out, you stop to observe each specie of bird.
I have shot 2 deer from the ground because is stopped to i.d. a flight of geese and a woods wren. Had I not, I would have blundered into doe groups previously unnoticed.
Lead with the balls of your feet with your weight rearward, knees higher. The sun is your ONLY timepiece for the entire day. No objective. You will see them first, then plan your rout. Always mindful of the wind direction. Thats the sequence.
Your shooting will take care of itself once you get this close. But shooting skill alone won't solve get you here. Like you alluded to in your original post.
Good luck Thumper, it will take time.
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Where I hunt the deer are on pins and needles all the time. Lots of hunting pressure on surrounding properties. Unless your hunting high fence your probable in the same boat as I am, being in Tx.
In my opinion the only way you will stalk one of our whitetails is with the Sun on your back and a decent wind in your favor. The sun to blind the whitetails vision and the wind to silence your stalk and keep your scent away. The rut can open some opportunities since bucks or more focused on does at that time. High pressured whitetails are hard to bow hunt period.
Not sure who suggested this but its a good Idea. Get in a dark quite room with all your gear on and draw your bow. You will hear everything that makes noise. You will be surprised.
If you ever come to San Antonio let me know it would be nice to meet you. Maybe we can do some hog hunting.
Take care
Gilbert
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Originally posted by amicus:
If you ever come to San Antonio let me know it would be nice to meet you. Maybe we can do some hog hunting.
Take care
Gilbert
Thanks Gilbert! Do you ever make it to the TBoT shoots? I don't normally shoot 3D, but I'd like to make it to at least one or two this year.
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This has been a great topic. It has been almost a year since I have been able to take any time to sit and read on TG. I decided to take a couple of minutes today and got pulled into this topic. Some great ideas. It is so hard to change from the pace of our "New York Minute" society to the pace of the natural world. I don't have much to add, because I am certainly not a consistent deer slayer. I do like to listen to Native American flute music on my way to hunt, as the calm my mind some. I find it to be very natural in its rhythms and much more calming than rock or country.
As to smelling tension, if they can smell your tension they can smell the rest of you, which is usually enough. Stress does seem to increase body oder, plus the elevation in heart rate and body temp would increase the amount of oder put out. A further extension is can they sense the agitation through some sense other than smell. When I can hear a deer coming, but not see it I get torn up. My heart rate goes through the roof, breathing changes. It is amazing how many times deer have stopped and changed direction even though they could not have smelled or seen my when this has happened.
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Stalk like the prey is alway behind the next brush or tree.. never be in a hurry ( except thoese few special situations after you spotted the game where moving fast will actually benefit you)
Use all your senses, not only your eyes..
Dont be a cityslicker
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[/qb][/QUOTE]Thanks Gilbert! Do you ever make it to the TBoT shoots? I don't normally shoot 3D, but I'd like to make it to at least one or two this year. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Sent you a pm.
Gilbert
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Originally posted by maineac:
This has been a great topic. It has been almost a year since I have been able to take any time to sit and read on TG. I decided to take a couple of minutes today and got pulled into this topic. Some great ideas.
I love to hear that! This is exactly the idea of the thread. I darn sure want to get better at hunting, and I'd rather shortcut my learning curve whenever possible!
Amicus, I replied to your PM.
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I think some of these principles can help when you are stand hunting as well as stalking. When I'm waiting in a stand, I try to stay in the mindset that a deer is going to appear at any moment. It helps me keep moverments to a minimum and stay focused on really seeing what's out there. Where I hunt is really brushy, so deer DO tend to just APPEAR, and when they do, they are RIGHT THERE! CLOSE! And even though it's thick and sight distance is low, the forest floor is quite soft and deer tend to make very little noise as they approach, they just sort of appear right there, and I didn't hear them coming. That, or my hearing is worse than I think. Ha.
I do try to practice that thing of stopping just a few yards into the woods and "acclimating" to the sights, sounds, smells, and just start getting my mind right for the hunt. It helps!
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When in close proximity to game I clear my mind of all thought, and completely relax (as well as not focusing my eyes. Just relax completely). I started doing yoga at work during lunch more than a decade ago in a attempt address the impact of long term overuse injuries. I first noticed when at the lunch counter at work after my 15 minute sessions. The clerks would go about their work not even notice me, especially if I was the only one there! Then they would jump out of their skin when I said something to get their attention. The last pose on my workout tape is the "corpse Pose" Where you essentially lay flat on your back and clear your mind, focusing only on your breathing. Really works on game too. Risk is, when you switch back onto "predator mode" a jumpy animal can pick up on that, so if they are close and they are jumpy, wait for them to look away before you switch modes