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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Bakes168 on November 21, 2017, 10:24:00 PM
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Last night I watched John Schulz's video "Hitting 'Em Like Howard Hill", it was quite enjoyable and I learned much. In the video he emphasized that Howard didn't draw with his bow arm already up and pointing the at target, saying it was better to bring the arm up and draw all in one fluid motion because that's the way you'll probably need to shoot while hunting.
I tried this tonight while practicing, while it does feel good and a bit more natural I cannot believe that this would be a better method for hunting, especially hunting from a treestand or ground blind. Obviously drawing the bow is usually the most critical part of taking a shot at a deer because all that movement will give you away. Why would anyone want to compound the issue by adding the movement of bringing your bow arm up from your side?
I know that when I have an animal closing the distance I already have my bow arm up, extended and pointed in the critter's direction, fingers on the string and ready to draw. I've still been busted a couple times while making my draw...
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That is my most "natural" method. Swing the extended bow arm up as the arrow is drawn.
But I also use the push-pull with the bow up if I have had the time to see a deer coming in slowly.
It's good to have choices that can be used to fit the situation at hand.
Draw slow, shoot slow. Draw fast, shoot fast. The shot has a rhythm.
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
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Bakes, I agree. WAAYYYY too much movement to get a shot at pretty much any game animal other than a fish around here. There's a reason there's never been another Howard Hill. Besides his spending countless hours working on form, he was also a natural athlete.
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Their more than one way to shoot a bow and I think while hunting you may find that you should be able to make many kinds ofshots.Kneeling,sitting,twisted at the waste one way or the other.Slower more methodical shots or quick shots flying by the seat of your pants.
That method works great when things get hot fast and you need to shoot quickly.Or when wing shooting or shooting at moving game.
An animal may get nervous because it smells you or for some other reason and is ready to bolt and it turns its head the other way and you shoot quickly.Thier will be other moments if you hunt a lot where a quick shot with the swing draw will be the only option.I have killed a few nice bucks that way.I did practice it a lot and it paid off for me.Both those deer were killed on the ground with no blind.It was fast and almost unconscious shooting.
You wont always be in position due to hunting scenarious in the real world to be methodical and deliberate in your shooting.Being able to execute like Shultz does in a split second will put game in the freezer in certain circumstances.
He was very fluid and natural looking in his shooting.It was not snap shooting.He was in total control and practiced religiously to attain his degree of accuracy with that shot process.Hill was a good teacher and he was a prized pupil of that methodology.
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I have shot many animals, deer, squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, this way.
Most, as they are moving by my position, or stand.
The situation will dictate, the shot.
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If I may, one thing that you are missing is the change in times. Though mankind has been hunting from tree's likely since we realized the safety of it. Keep in mind that Mr. Hill would stalk his game. I have not heard of any story of him in a tree (except in Tembo waiting on the Crocodile). Even Mr. Schulz, would stalk the game, and to my knowledge only hunted from a "stand" one time. When you stalk your game, the raising/drawing of the bow is fluid and natural and is rarely seen by game you have decided to harvest, especially moving game. Mr. Bear favored the "push/pull" method and used ground blind hunting a lot. I have found from my experience's, that even when hunting from stand, when a deer comes in and decide to shoot, I fluidly and slowly come up and take the shot, which works better for me. If you think about it, it is the draw that makes bowhunting harder, not getting the bow up (if done right). With this method, once the movement (if spotted), the shot cycle is complete and arrow on way. Just my two cents.
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Takes a lot of practice to be truly proficient. Archery students would shoot out the lights if i had them do that. Basic skills are easier with push pull style.. that said, in the field, one do as must must
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Swing draw in and of itself does not mean you have to release "on contact". I have used my version of a swing draw to shoot deer from the ground at 6 and 8 paces this year. I just do it when their vision is eclipsed by brush or a tree, part of the plan.
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I use a variety of swing draws, sometimes a swing/spread draw. I am hunting with a white bow. I had 4 deer less than 20 yards from me with no cover between me and them, I drew on an 8 point buck that was a bit further away and to the side. I saw that I had too many branches as I was doing the straight back finish to the draw and let down. The deer in front of me did not spook. The doe looked but then went back to browsing the picked corn. My normal 25 yards and under shot tempo is one second from the beginning of the draw to release, I aim longer on longer shots. Perhaps it is a shot timing thing, but I do not have problems of deer busting while I draw. I only hunt on the ground. I have taken several deer standing with my back tight up against a larger tree. It is possible to shoot accurately without leaning away from the tree using the swing draw. It does alter where the secondary 'imaginary' aiming point comes, but with prior practice, it is totally possible. It is also possible to do a 50/50 spread draw from that position. Perhaps all a deer sees is a lump on the the tree and it helps if that tree has a buddy or two, but lean away from the tree, the deer will see the back grounds change and be alerted. Iowa deer are masters at motion detection, one can go as slow as he can in the draw and a deer can pick up the smallest waggle of a bow or the turning of of the body or head. There are certainly no guarantees, but it is a big help with shot timing issues. For example, if it takes one 5 seconds to get off a shot, but a deer's head is either turned or behind a tree for two seconds. Many will say that is not a shooting opportunity, but as Schulz demonstrated the slower shots are one second tempo shots, a two second opportunity is a shooting opportunity with that tempo.
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Hill and Schulz videos show them drawing and shooting very quickly but it doesn't have to be done fast. When Hill did some of his trick shots he slowed down.
Give a kid a bow and teach them the basics of stance, anchor and release then let them shoot for a couple days. In the end, they will be doing the swing draw..... unless something else is promoted.
If you learned to shoot as a kid with minimal instruction, you probably do a swing draw without thinking.
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Hill and Schulz are not alone. Jim Belcher shows that it can be done with a variety of bows. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62vrkJFXbco
This guy does alright with it as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJazvAm1PAM&feature=youtu.be
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I guess I use a hybrid draw. I get pointed in the direction of the animal and raise my bow arm pushing and pulling all at the same time, anchor for a couple seconds and it's gone.
I'm no Howard Hill but it works well for me!!
John
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I shoot with a swing draw and just killed a buck off the ground a couple weeks ago. No treestand, no blind, 11 steps away. It can be done.
Here's the story if you're interested.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=156169;p=1#000000
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I've been shooting this way for several years now and killed many deer and turkeys from stands, blinds and stalking. Not once has it cost me an animal or have I been busted while drawing my bow. :dunno:
Tracy
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I sometimes shoot using the swing draw,sometimes full blown and sometimes shortened up some.All according to situation.Have killed quite a few animals this way.
Terry
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I use the swing draw and I've killed many critters. If you set your arm when an animal is closing and he hangs up just out of range how long can you hold your bow up?
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It's not how you move that gets you busted, it's when you move. Shooting the bow requires movement... period.
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Originally posted by Charlie Lamb:
It's not how you move that gets you busted, it's when you move. Shooting the bow requires movement... period.
That pretty much sums it up!
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Charlie has a way with words doesn't he :bigsmyl:
He's 100% right too :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Tracy
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I absolutely agree that the swing draw has it's place and I wouldn't hesitate to use it given the right situation. My point was simply that I would not attempt it when that uber wary matriarch doe is closing the distance on a calm evening. Mr. Schulz made it sound like any other way was the wrong way to shoot.
Toddster, I had considered that. Any of the old bow hunting films I see they are mostly on the ground taking quick shots at game which is often moving. A swing draw would certainly be the better method in such a situation.
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Zach, the point with John's teaching is that he was teaching how Howard Hill shot a longbow and the advantages of that method with a longbow. I like John's chapter in his book, 'HOLD IT, you're wrong'. When one shoots longbows with that method for enough years, it makes sense and it works. If your crunch time method is static and straight back and straight up, a nice long stable recurve shooting split finger and possibly bow sights would be a better option and leave the swing draw fast stuff alone.
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It depends on the situation. Howard Hill describes in his book Hunting the Hard Way about one situation when he was sneaking up on a ground squirrel and he drew his bow first while he was behind the tree and then stepped out to take the shot.
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Bakes... I agree with your assessment. Many of us believe there is only one correct way to shoot....the way WE do it.
Do it the way you need to, there are certain factors that come together to help one shoot / aim better, but there are usually many ways to achieve that .
Worried about that doe ? When you pick your spot make certain that there are "things" out there that obstruct her vision temporarily and make use of them. Trees, leafed out branches and similar. For turkeys, heck try even making obstructions.
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Your right. It just doesn't work.
(http://i.imgur.com/FEQX4Kg.jpg)
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See Greg there you go. Those all white bows need an awful lot of silencers on them. I really would look for another way to tie them on.
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That'd be a big picture.
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Nobody said it doesn't work. What is being said is it is not for everybody.
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Hill style longbows are not for everybody either. Nothing wrong with that, certain bows are simply better with different techniques.
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I never said it doesn't work :knothead:
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I swing draw when the shot calls for it....
I mostly pre raise my bow about 90% of the way on hunting shots, but it I wouldn't have taken the time to learn to swing draw I would have missed out on many kills.
It helps the bowhunter to learn to shoot both ways to capitalize on the opportunity of choice when the window opens.
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Exactly. Have "several arrows in your quiver" when it comes to draw styles. Options are a great thing.
There are times a "snap-shot" all at once may be the shot you have and you only have a half-second to act. Also good for running bunnies.
Not the time to be raising and locking your bow arm before drawing.
Practice all three: locked arm, push-pull, swing arm.
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Don't forget that guys like Schultz & Hill are already exceptional shooters. While it may work for them, it may also work in spite of them. The problem with copying the methods of those who are exceptional is that it may not work for the average Joe. The average Joe (or the multitudes of average Joes) may expose the flaw that the exceptional shooter may work through without noticing. I like ideas that work for Joe Sixpack, not Hill, Schultz, etc. Those methods are harder to screw up.
But methods aside, you'd be hard-pressed to tell me that there's only one way to do anything. There's only what works for you and what doesn't work for you. Trial and error are the best ways to learn anything.
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If you view some old videos of Howard Hill shooting, you'll notice that he didn't always use the swing draw. Sometimes he used more of a push/pull like Fred Bear.
Swing draw, push/pull, static arm. They're all good. I practice and use all of them depending on the circumstances.
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In the current 'push podcast', they speak of focus speed. Some are wired, fast others are wired slower. Certain levels of arm strength come into play as well, with how one draws a bow into action. One tall skinny kid noticed that Hill had a dogleg in his bow arm. He was about the same length as Hill. He could easily do it to get a 28" draw with my training bow, but could not begin to do that with a 45 or 55 pound bow, he either had to goose neck or he simply collapsed. When someone argues the straight arm with a straight grip longbow being universally superior and the only way, they may be defending their own lack of arm strength. In such situations exact emulating of Hill's shooting may not be the best way to go. Fortunately, there are other bows that are better for that shooting style. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
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Whether I pre point, push pull, or swing I still snap shoot. How or when I draw the bow doesn't have anything to do with my final execution form...all roads lead me to the same destination at release.
Good thread BTW.
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The aspect I see, my opinion and am just as guilty, is most do not put the time in to become great shots. Yes we shoot and put them all in a pie plate, and run good scores on 3D shoots and harvest animals. But to really master the "swing draw" takes dedication and a whole lot of time. That many of us do not have. Most of us come to this later in life, instead of learning much younger and evolve.
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If done properly the swing draw is a smooth ergonomic way of getting the bow into action. The last six inches of straight draw, whether the bow is half swing and half spread or all spread, is where the shot is at. Personally, I find doing a total straight draw causes issues that need correction when I shoot, but sometimes it is the right thing to do when hunting in tick stuff. Drag up draw action and the grip and rip it does not work so good, the aim has to settle before release, even if just for an instant.