My wife never gives me any real grief about hunting, BUT I told her I would like to try for Mountain Lion as I found someone that is not to far out on our budget.She asked how I was going to go about that and I told her dogs etc. She said "not fair". Told her the cost is not going to go down. The animals need to be managed for the benefit of all wildlife and themselves included. The D.O.W. doesn't give out thousands of tags so they are managing them correctly. By treeing them you would have a better more efficient ethical shot. Thats all I kind think of quickly. Need help with the discussion gang
Ask her if she could learn to use a fawn in distress call and set up a few yards from you...LOL
Chuck, I laughed so hard I almost cried,LOL.
Danny
I like Smakewoods idea. I really cannot add to what you have said. I myself could not shoot a large cat. Mountain lion, Tiger or african lion, don't know why it just does nt appeal to me. I hope ya convince her though as I am sure it is a great hunt. Shawn
I shot a huge cat on a hunt in 94 I think.Something I always wanted to do was to hunt the US's supreme predator with a bow. The kill IS kind of anti climatic, but the chase is unbelievably hard. Yes they do need to be managed. An adult lion will kill an elk or mule deer twice a week on average if memory serves me. Figure I "saved" several hundred elk and deer from a horrible death for the rest of that lions natural life.
There are lots of hunts we go on where the shots are anti climatic..bear or deer over bait, antelope at a waterhole, elk at a mud wallow for example. Lion hunts are much more strenuous/exciting than those.
I can understand where Shawn is coming from though. I have no desire to hunt camels, giraffes or zebra, but I understand there are others who would find that exciting and can appreciate where they are coming from. Just not for me.
BTW this cat is full mounted standing on a rock in my den, so in some respects he will live forever or at least until I die and pass him on to my heirs if they want it.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/montcat.jpg)
Negotiations get tough sometimes..............I got hogs on the permitted list because they are ugly. Then came deer because they destroyed her flower beds and fruit trees. Goats are OK because I never asked. I can't get any cats on the permitted list because they resemble pets too much. Elk and Moose are OK because they are big meat. Bears are off the list. Coyotes got on the list because they ate my daughter's ducks-but wolves are out. My suggestion is hunt what's on your list and be happy; and don't expect it to make sense.
Shot my first mountain lion here in Tucson on March 4th. It was the most exhilerating and physically demanding hunt I have ever done! Chasing dogs hot on a lion's trail and trying to get to him before he bolts is an indescribile and absolutely nerve-racking experience. I wrote up the hunt and Western Hunter Magazine is considering publishing it in their November edition. It is very difficult getting published in a hunting magazine because they have so many offers and you have to compete against the big names in the industry. So, I have my fingers crossed. Good luck in your efforts to convince your wife that this is an ethical hunt. I believe it is and in a month I will have a full body mount to remind me of the incredible experience!
There is a reason the game dept. issues tags...it is a management tool that is NECESSARY. Here in Oregon the good well-meaning citizens voted to ban hunting cats with dogs. The result has been a huge increase in cats and a major decline in deer and elk. To the point that the state is going to pay "professional" hunters, who hunt with DOGS by the way, to help take the numbers down in areas that are problem areas by their definition. So, instead of the state selling tags and making some money and hunters doing what they like to do...hunt, they will be spending our tax dollars trying to fix a problem that the voters caused! Hunting cats with dogs is a necessity. You either let hunters do it or you pay to have it done. So, tell you wife that for every cat that roams the woods one deer (bambi) is killed every week by that cat. That is 52 deer a year by just one cat! Those are the figures that the state biologists use here in Oregon. A cat likes to eat fresh meat unlike a bear...of course, we also banned baiting bears too!
Oh, I forgot to mention, despite my initial reaction, mountain lion is some of the best tablefare you will ever eat!
Kinda like veal, but it must be cooked thouroughly to 160 degrees internal temp. Cats are susceptible to trichinosis.
Just tell her if hunting lions with dogs is unethical, you'll need the next two or three years off work to stalk one! :bigsmyl: CKruse
I would also chip in that I've hunted black bears in this manner. It's not for the out-of-shape, something for nothing sort. It's tough, physically challenging hunting. Like Mickey said, the shot is not necessarily the high point, but that's the same with a lot of what we do. CKruse
Bring her and see if she thinks it is fair at the end of the chase. :D
Lol - from the title I was getting ready to bet $20 on the lion, but now I see where the thread is going.
So what the heck isn't fair about it? Would it be more fair if the lion also had a pack of dogs and a bow (though without any thumbs, the lion is gonna have a heck of a time stringing his bow)?
Fair schmair. You are the apex predator, not the lion. Good luck - both with the hunt and with the pre-hunt negotiations. :-D
QuoteOriginally posted by GingivitisKahn:
Lol - from the title I was getting ready to bet $20 on the lion,:-D
You're not married are you :saywhat:
Hey Shawn Leonard, how about a small feral cat?
You live in Silt. I'm sure you can find a track in town after it snows. People change their perspective when a large predator is outside there front door. Especially if you have kids,lap dogs, or cats. Good luck with your dilemma.
Got to go with Farret on the "not married are you". I have been married twenty-four years, three happily, to the same German gal I met in college, I live in constant fear of skillets. My $20 is on the bride!
A wild house cat, yes. Just as Mickey said a Zebra, Hippo, just not for me. I am not opposed to it at all as I said I feel it would bean exciting challenging hunt just not for me. Shawn
I agree take her along then see what she says
I booked a lion hunt for this coming January.About a month later the price went up from 2500.00 to 3500.00.It was like I made 1000.00 bucks.My wife didnt really agree with me but heck it makes a lot of sense to me.If you keep track of them they dont go down in price, they usually go up 500.00 to 1000.00 a year. In B.C. theyre already in the 6000.00 range and now the Canadian dollar is beating ours so hunt as soon as you can.
Izzy
Ask her to come along.
If you can swing it and she's fit, by all means take her along. Looking at a big cat in a tree will change you both. You can decide to take or not take the cat after making the tree, the hunt is over at that point.
I have taken lots of cats, some as a sport hunter and some as a job. The day I don't have emotions for the top predator in that tree is the day I quit.
I choose to think of it this way. I have about as much controll over my reaction to the joy of the hunt and the chase as the big cat does. I do have control over the taking of the cat when sport hunting. For years it was catch and release, now with the people who understand the least about these cats controling the management of them (the voter) The result is the following.
In select units in this state, 40% of the cats in the unit must die per year for 3 years. I don't like it, but this is game management by emotion rather than science. The Pros, our game managers have had to swallow a bitter pill the voters gave them. To stop the downward spiral of our deer & elk herds they do management of the cats.
I hope you get to go on your hunt,and your wife also. The lion, puma, cougar or catamount is our finest big game animal in my opinion and everyone should experiance his gaze before they leave this earth.
Sorry for rambling, RS
Well, guess i will through my 2 cents in here as well.
Our legislature has just considered a Mtn. Lion season here in Oklahoma. Talk to the biologists, they have no firm idea how many there are in the state, no clue as to the recrutment in the population (how many are born each year) and without any data about their impact on the prey populations. BUT BY GOLLY WE OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO HUNT THEM!..they say.
I got no problem with hunting big cats, looks like a great experience. Yet, I have quite a few other dream hunts on the list above it, and a meager pocket book. For those who can and will, more power to ya. Send me a picture!
What does concern me is the idea that if we DON'T hunt them terrible things will happen to this and the other game animals we love. No...not really. Yes, big cats eat a lot of deer and elk. But they have been doing that for thousands of years. If uncontrolled predator numbers depleted prey numbers to levels below sustainability, we would have run out of prey...and predators for that matter... long before game managment agencies were ever created.
This is the idea of carrying capacity. If left alone (this is a big if, I know) populations will find an equillibrium in balance with their food source. We have changed the landscape in almost all parts of this county to benifit the macro-mammal grazers/browsers (deer, elk etc.). So, we have more than we did (not counting the dark market hunting days at the turn of the century). We should expect to have more of the critters that eat the critters that are doing well.
Here lies what I have been so ineptly getting at. As hunters we LIKE to have big numbers of the things we hunt, so a carrying capacity above what would be likely without managment is desired, BUT the corresponding increase in predator numbers is LESS desireable (I don't want big cats, grizzer bears and wolfs in my walmart parking lot either!!). These are what are called SOCIAL CARRYING CAPACITIES. Nothing wrong with them, it's how things are. Population controll on predators regaurdless of species is for OUR benifit, not other game populations.
We don't appologize for enjoying hunting, we don't really need shakey reasoning for hunting big cats. The populations are healthy, they can sustain controlled harvest, it's legal... go forth and hunt!
As far as what I can tell ya about helping with the wife thing, what is more important, a happy wife or a cat hunt? (This is where I throw in the qualifier: NO, I am not married...anymore.)
Good Luck how ever it goes!
OkKeith
QuoteOriginally posted by OkKeith:
What does concern me is the idea that if we DON'T hunt them terrible things will happen to this and the other game animals we love. No...not really. Yes, big cats eat a lot of deer and elk. But they have been doing that for thousands of years. If uncontrolled predator numbers depleted prey numbers to levels below sustainability, we would have run out of prey...and predators for that matter... long before game managment agencies were ever created.
This is the idea of carrying capacity. If left alone (this is a big if, I know) populations will find an equillibrium in balance with their food source..
OkKeith
Which is true and the same point that anti hunters make (which is also true btw) that hunting is not "necessary" for game management as we claim, that if all hunting were ended today, yes there would be an explosion of game animals for awhile, but then nature would take over and disease, mass starvation and a increase in natural predators (bear, lions, wolves) would reduce the herd to the carrying capacity of the land for all the critters. All true.
However since we do like to hunt, and like to see lots of game when we are hunting we have choices to make. One is inevitably to control our competition (the big predators)or see less game when we are hunting...or quit hunting.
Tough choices
This will stir some up but the way I see it, the chase is a very exciting part of hunting anything. Lions or coons, you have to follow the dogs to the tree and get there before the critter jumnps and runs again. Now, shootin one out of a tree is like huntin deer in a pen which it seems that most do not care for. There's nothing to it. It can't really go anywhere and if you are a decent shot, the animal is going to die. If you want to make it real sporting, after it's treed, climb up after it with a spear or knife and give it a chance. Shootin one from a tree would be just like shootin one caught in a trap. I guess it is about the only way to manage the numbers on these animals as they are seldom seen unless they are up a tree. Anyway, don't mean to offend, and good luck on your hunt.
Rob
Last January I had the opportunity to go on a Mt lion hunt in Arizona. It was anything but an easy hunt. Also, lion meat is some of the best wild game I have ever eaten. Here's the story if you care to read it.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=041179;p=1
Can't argue with you Okkeith, what you say is pretty much the way it will go. The only thing is the highs and lows in the numbers is not much fun to watch for folks who really value wildlife.
I know, thats emotion again.
Game management helps stabalize those big pendulum swings. I beleive we are gonna be stuck with game management and not be able to let nature take her course as long as we as people keep hogging the best habitat and our numbers remain as large as they are. Maybe we can go back to being hunter gather'es and be part of those big number swings.
Don't know if this will help a guy get out on a hunt or not.
just my 2 cents
I don't recall ever asking my wife if its OK for me to do something in the field- spending money on a trip - yes...where to go and what I can take on that trip? Never.
I don't get to tell her what she can or cannot do on a cruise, or how to shop or what to buy/not to buy at the mall.
I suspect that's why our marriage has done so well for 30 years. Maybe I'm kidding myself..but if you have to justify taking a legal game animal to your spouse in order to be able to do it? Not sure that will end there...sort of like gun control...right now its machine guns, later it'll be more until they get what they really want..no guns at all.
I think your hunting is eventually doomed if you let this go without a real resolution. Just my 02 cents. Thats an opinion, you know, and everyone has one of those...
Then there is the point that mountain lions kill people on occasion.
If its leagle whats not far about. If it were me I would sit my wife down and tell her I was going to save my extra money to go on a lion hunt. When I got enough saved I would book my hunt and I would go. Then I would tell her to get over it. She would get over it or die very unhappy. But I can say things like this because my wife loves for me to hunt what I want when I want.
I didn't read all the posts but I have to ask do you tell her how to dress? Do you have to approve what style of shoe she buys? Me and the wifey discuss all purchases but that doesnt translate into her having the right to say no just because she doesnt like the idea.. The only question that should be an issue is can you afford it.. If money is not an issue than it shouldn't matter if your hunting ants or antelope..
I have to agree with RoughCountry and Mickey that nature's way of balance is spike/crash/spike/crash with most populations never fully recovering from the crashes. It's not the smooth "carrying capacity" model we've come accustom to. During those spikes we'd have increased animal/vehicular collisions with the resulting loss of human life, human/cat encounters (more loss of human life) and property damage (crop, landscape, etc) as the deer numbers soar. Natural order isn't as euphoric as most people romantisize it to be. It's brutal and animals don't die a quiet death under clean sheets with family surrounding them.
As far as your hunt is concerned; if your reasons for hunting the cat aren't enough to persuade your wife I doubt anyone will come up with something else that will. What you do from that point on is up to you.
All arguments are good but the main one comes back to what momma wants to happen. I agree with Mr. Rudolph. Be nice and you won't have to duck the skillet. Maybe she'll even say okay!!
Alla ya'll are right on with your comments about my previous post. Carrying Capacity is really only a construct people use to get their head around what happens in real life.
The mere fact that we use things like human encounters and how we feel about the way wildlife meets it's end only strengthens the importance of social carrying capacities. There are still spikes and crashes in all populations of wildlife (some we don't see, some we don't really care about). People (all people...as in humans in general) have monkeyed with the landscape to the point that managment is not only wise, but a nessisary activity to conserve not just our wildlife resources but ALL natural resources. We don't truly manage resources, we manage access and use of them.
The poor fella who only wanted help with his disscussion between him and his wife is wondering how the heck Malthusian population dynamics and geo-political habitat change disscusions got in the mix. That'll teach him to try and get interpersonal relationship advice from THIS bunch again!
OkKeith
Good one OK, that one got me laughing. :D Thanks, needed that :)
Ray Hammond said what I was going to say and my marriage has lasted 42 yrs.+ :D :D :D
Does Any one know of a decently priced lion hunt in the U.S ??? Please post or P.M me.
thank you
Sergio
If I was going to book a lion hunt, the outfitter I'd most like to hunt with would be Warner Glenn, Douglas, Ariz.
It's a horseback ,dry ground hunt in very rugged country. Not sure of his prices but he's been at it for years.
Some marriages are different. My wife won't tell me what to buy, what not to buy ,and vice versa, but we discuss major expenditures. Every one of them. A lion hunt would certainly go in the major expenses column and up for discussion (so do new motorcycles ;) ).After all we entered into our marriage 34 years ago as a 50/50 partnership and that's how it has remained. 1/2 of the money I would spend on a hunt/motorcycle etc would be hers, therefore she deserves some input into the purchase. Fortunately for me neither one of us are spend thrifts and I don't have to worry about her spending thousands on something I don't know about and she doesn't have to worry about me doing that either. If either one of us wants something that costs a lot we sit down and discuss how that can be accomplished financially.
If I got a second job, or did side jobs, specifically for the purpose of saving for hunts/bikes, that of course would be different and the proceeds would be used entirely at my disgression.
Some of you fellows are pretty funny and some smart as heck with the dynamics of the earths axis twisting due to over/under animal populations.My wife never said no just did not think following hounds was fair. Been married 31 years next summer. When you are as ferret said a partnership I don't think one partner can say to the other I am just going to take $3000.00 out of the bank so just deal with it. I will get to go, if not this year then next OR I will never get lucky at my house again.
Ferret -
I am but you know - a lion is a lion. :-p
Ferret,
If you need to unload that cat to an heir, you could adopt me.
Your son,
-Charlie