Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Mike Mecredy on August 12, 2017, 12:50:00 PM
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This is for those who shoot recurve bows, I need your input.
I've always struggle with recurve designs. I've offered a few over the last 12 years, they never really seemed to be a "hit". I personally prefer longbows and self bows for shooting and the only recurves I really like are the old Ben Pearson's (mustang, cougar, etc.) but not everyone shares my sentiment.
So I'm thinking about designing a 56" to 58" once piece, recurve bow, I've got an idea, and there's not many out there available with what I have in mind, but I want to hear from you all what you'd like to see, as far as grip, limb width, profile, smoothness (smoothness, my biggest challenge, beating the premature stacking) and such.
Your input is much appreciated.
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I can't shoot every 58" recurve because of a 29" draw. But the ones I can seem to have a few things in common. 50's - 60's styling, lower grip and nice wide limbs. I don't do heavy to well anymore so 40-45 pounds at my draw works well for me. I also am real fond of static recurve limbs, seems to give great performance. Not all will agree with this old guy.......lol
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If I were going to get another 58" recurve (I wouldn't get a 56") it would be for hunting. For hunting, I need a takedown recurve that I can easily pack. 3 piece short takedowns seem to sacrifice too much in draw length and smoothness, so it would probably be a two piece takedown: bow bolt, hinge, slot, etc. I don't like extreme recurves because they seem prone to limb twist, so I would be willing to sacrifice some speed for durability. So I would like a moderately recurved bow with whatever other features you could build into the design to increase durability and decrease the potential for limb twist. To help offset the slight decrease in performance from a conservative design, I would like the bow to be constructed of top notch material that would optimize performance. It should be plain-Jane in appearance, befitting it's role as a hunting bow. Grips are very personal, of course, but I have always been partial to either the Black Widow or Bob Lee standard grip: not too fat, not too skinny.
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High wrist 60s style similar to the Kodiak Hunter profile, but in 60". Extra curved tips to eliminate that stacking.
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For me I am a longbow shooter,I really like a 50's style recurve with a leather grip at 58" one piece.I like the grip because it is closer to a longbow style.JMO
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50's style here as well. They just seem to feel and point better to me
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Small riser, static tips, two piece.
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I know that your not looking to copy anyone's design, that being said the Kota Killum has all the characteristics in a recurve that I am looking for. A recurve has to be quiet and stable
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IMO we have few choices as far as designs go. One reason I think the 50's style has made a come back. For a no frills hunting/field bow just a 59-62 style Bear Kodiak style made with modern materials to achieve the performance that a bow 10# heavier would give. Why? A lot of Trad guys are old guys and pulling 50#+ bows an'it easy.
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Maybe go to 60" so you can cover more shooters. 59 Kodiak design is a good place to start.
Tedd
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i've always wanted to try a saluki ibex, turk or scythian. asiatic style has intrigued me for a long time.
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For me, I will not buy a recurve under 60". As far as grip goes, if you could replicate the grip of a 1965 Kodiak or a Wes Wallace Mentor grip, that would be pure gold! If there were one thing I would recommend, it's finding a grip that serves the majority of the populous. I think that's the appeal of bows like Silver Tip, Wes Wallace, Tall Tines, Tolke and so many other great bowyers to mention.
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I personally like short heavy high-wrist risers.
if it is 56"/58" bow, that, to me is a long recurve, so I'd probably enjoy high curve/static tips on the limbs.
American Archery x-48 and really wide limbs, (subjective opinion to follow) to me it seemed to have smoother draw compared to other similar bow of that size (amo 52).
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All of my recurves will be at least 60".
The only shorter bow that I have owned and would buy again is a 56" Shrew Classic Hunter style.
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I'm sure everyone has their own "favorite". I would suggest that instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, look at proven, popular designs; take the best features from them and incorporate them into a solid, affordable bow. As for me, I like a heavy riser, like a Bear Super Kodiak with a grip like a Bob Lee. 58 inches would be just right.
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I only draw a touch over 27 and I prefer a 60" recurve. 58" is ok but I get pinched with any 56" that I have tried. I prefer a high grip and a radiused shelf. I also prefer a heavy riser.
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I draw 27", and will not buy another bow that is under 62". Can't explain that, but short bows just don't feel right to me. I think the '72 Bear Kodiak Hunter is about the most perfect bow, except it is 60". I like a high grip and a small riser. Good luck with your quest to build a popular bow.
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If you plan to make just one model : a 50's style recurve 60" would probably fit most if you offer some custom grip features as well. With a good limb design it could handle fairly up to 31" DL plus you could offer 2 piece TD possibilities for those who want a TD bow using locket socket or sleeve.
For those willing more mass you can offer option to built the riser in G10 to get heavier bow. Designing the limbs semi static rather than the classic full working limb could be a way to make something different of what others 50's style recurve bowyers are usually offering yet performing and very stable torsionally and vertically (enhancing accuracy)
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Mike, all my favorites are my older Bear bows, Grizzly, Kodiak Hunter, Super K (and a Tamerlane; not for hunting!) The one with the most consistency is the Grizzly at 58"...but the grip could be more contoured and comfortable, for sure.
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Deflex riser,
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Double post for some reason
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Originally posted by Bud B.:
High wrist 60s style similar to the Kodiak Hunter profile, but in 60". Extra curved tips to eliminate that stacking.
The KHunter was made in 60"; the 70's greenies for example. I want one with AFC - automatic form compensation!
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Mike,
I would like to put in a plug for maybe a longer recurve. I've heard many guys that would like something in the order of a 64" bow in the style of the Bear 59-60 Kodiak. Maybe a 62" one would be unique. I draw 28" and I used a 58" bow many years ago, but I have shot 60" plus for 20 years now.
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Prefer larger brace heights on shorter recurves.
Most shorter designs, with higher BH's, that i have worked with were personally more amicable.
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Originally posted by dbd870:
Originally posted by Bud B.:
High wrist 60s style similar to the Kodiak Hunter profile, but in 60". Extra curved tips to eliminate that stacking.
The KHunter was made in 60"; the 70's greenies for example. I want one with AFC - automatic form compensation! [/b]
But the first year (1967.5) was 58".
:)
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Plus, Mike mentions designing/building a 56" or 58". I prefer 60" for more smoothness in drawing to anchor.
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I got this Chek-Mate Attila on the classifieds last year. It is no longer made but embodies many of the features others have already mentioned for a no frills hunting recurve. I draw 26" on this 56" so can't comment on smoothness of a longer draw but maybe other lengths to accommodate longer draws and cosmetic options for those that like to dress up their bows would help make it more popular. A two piece option would please those that may be traveling.
(http://i.imgur.com/CuscZYl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2Fm7AaI.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/utwnfSq.jpg)
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looks like some responses are pointing toward a long recurve, 60" plus, and 2 piece.
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50's style like the Great Northern Ghost
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This is my opinion but why copie someone else's designs. You as a bowyer should be able to design a recurve that has what you consider in a great bow. Good luck and let us know.
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There have been some really good 56-58" recurves. I shoot bows 52-72 inches, so I know there is not a best length, only good designs suited to their lengths. The best 55-58" recurves I've shot all have good mass concentrated in a shortish riser and limbs with plenty of curl and not too much width in the last half of the limbs. Short risers seem to imply high wrist grip, but that's not an automatic. I favor a medium grip. The Howatt Diablo and High Speed and Wing Red Wing Hunter are good examples. The Bear Grizzly is nearly indestructible but made some compromises for that durability. I have a 3 pc TD that is 58" that is my best shooting hunting bow because it has all of these same characteristics.
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Lots of great input here already. My 2 cents:
Short, heavy riser is a must for me in a recurve. Points super well and is steady in the hand. 58" or 60" is my sweet spot, but of course that is different for everyone.
I like a low wrist grip and a radiused shelf.
Takedown is a plus, and although I've never seen/heard of a 2 piece takedown recurve I think it'd be fantastic. It would add weight to the riser, and still allow portability. The cost however would obviously be higher than your standard "no frills, cheap hunting bow", so perhaps that's just an add on option if you're considering it.
I think you've got lots of "proof of concept" in the Prairie Predator line...take what you were successful with in that (very affordable, great performance, ability to customize, attractive strung profile), put those same factors into a recurve however you see fit, and you should see that same success.
Looking forward to what you come up with...good luck Mike!
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I shoot a 64" great northern shadow(50's style recurve with rather narrow limbs) and much prefer the grip style and streamline riser. If i could get a 56-58" bow with a similar feel and profile id jump on it right away
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Mass weight in the riser
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To The Whittler, that's the idea of asking for opinions, I don't want to copy another's design, it's not something I do, that would be easy. Rather, I'd like to get as much input and try to come up with something that will have as much appeal to a broad spectrum of bow hunters as possible. Designing a bow isn't as easy as one might think, especially a recurve.
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Originally posted by Mike Mecredy:
..... Designing a bow isn't as easy as one might think, especially a recurve.
And that is 1 of the big 3 in quality manufacturing....excellence in design, craftsmanship and materials. If one of those is missing the product is doomed.
To me, a design is a lot like making a pizza. Some folks like a thin crust - others like a thick one and some like one in the middle - just right.
After that, specific tastes begin to take over.... Some folks love anchovies - some folks hate 'em.
For me, and i'm pretty new to traditional archery, but have determined i most prefer a 3-piece take down recurve - with the limbs on the side facing away from me (opposite Black Widow's bows - ugh....anchovies to me!!!).
I do like the exceptionally curved "static" limb tips like Dryad's ACS limbs or Border Archery's Hex limbs.
I also really like the look of "footed"(?) risers - maybe called a flare?
Anyway, there are many recurve designs which are so very similar, but are very appealing to the masses.
Other bow types are nice (longbows, horse/mounted cavalry bows, etc) - if you like them.
You make a very nice longbow and i'm confident your bowyer skills will produce a quality bow.
I wonder if the design needs to come from what you like about recurves?
Make what you love and love what you make!
Sorry, i am verbose.
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Originally posted by Bud B.:
Originally posted by dbd870:
Originally posted by Bud B.:
High wrist 60s style similar to the Kodiak Hunter profile, but in 60". Extra curved tips to eliminate that stacking.
The KHunter was made in 60"; the 70's greenies for example. I want one with AFC - automatic form compensation! [/b]
But the first year (1967.5) was 58".
:) [/b]
My point was you don't have to wish - they exist.
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That pic of the Check Mate Atilla pretty much embodies everything I like in a recurve. The Bear Grizzly has similar lines.
I like simple profiles without horns, bumps, thumb rests, etc. Same with contrasting crazy riser laminations. Some bowyers seem to go overboard and end up with a gaudy looking bow. I'd much rather see a nice piece of pretty wood than a rainbow.
The takedown feature doesn't mean much to me. I have one and only ever took it apart to install a quiver.
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In my eye (and hands), the best example of a terrific 58" hunting bow was the Howatt Hi Speed. Powerful, works great for my 29" draw, maneuverable, easy to shoot (as well as I am able to shoot)...
Out of all the bows I have owned, from 50" Sheepeater, to 54" Thunderstick Ramhorn, to 60", 62", and 64"ers built by names you'd recognize... I think the 58" bow may be the perfect length for HUNTING... at least MY hunting!
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Originally posted by dbd870:
Originally posted by Bud B.:
Originally posted by dbd870:
quote:
Originally posted by Bud B.:
High wrist 60s style similar to the Kodiak Hunter profile, but in 60". Extra curved tips to eliminate that stacking.
The KHunter was made in 60"; the 70's greenies for example. I want one with AFC - automatic form compensation! [/b]
But the first year (1967.5) was 58".
:) [/b]
My point was you don't have to wish - they exist.
But not one made by Mike at Maddog!
Heck, recurves exist, so why build one at all? The reality is, Mike makes great bows. I like his Prairie Predator and his Pup longbows. If he made a recurve that I preferred, I would buy one, like one similar to the KH in high wrist, 60", long rounded working curved tips for smooth draw well past 28". And affordable, like the rest of Mike's bows.
I have four Kodiak Hunters. Since Bear no longer makes them, it would be great to see a newly made similar version, but not a clone. Especially one with a nicely radiused shelf. Most KHs have flat shelves. Great for elevated rests, but no so good shooting off the shelf.
Looking forward to what you come up with, Mike. Very much so.
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I can tell you what I don't like in a bow. It's a grip with sharp back corners like the new Bear Super Kodiak. Just horrible and I'm a Bear fan. :mad:
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I would go with captin Kirk on the old bear designs. I like a full working limb that is not got a ton of hook. I had a Attila at one time. Got too heavy for me but a very good design.
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The simple designs from the past is what most guys and gals I know seem to like. Pearson Deer slayer,
Howatt Bandito ect.
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The only 58" bow I've been able to shoot well is a Browning Cobra II drawn to 29.5". but it is 44#'s. I've owned/shot Bears,Howatts,Pearson and prefer a heavier riser in 62-64" these days.But static tips in a shorter bow might give the smoothness we all crave.
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Originally posted by Red Beastmaster:
[QB] That pic of the Check Mate Atilla pretty much embodies everything I like in a recurve. The Bear Grizzly has similar lines.
Here is the visual comparison alluded to of the 56" Attila and a 58" early 70's Grizzly.
(http://i.imgur.com/v1aNiWg.jpg)
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I have settled on 60 inch bows. I have had several 58 inchers and though they shoot well, I have no desire to have one, my next bow , if I ever buy another will most likely be 62 inches. I would like to see a modernized version of something similar to the 57 Kodiak. That would get my attention.
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A bowyer could get pretty confused reading about what archers like in a recurve it seems with all the various opinions on what different individuals like in a recurve:)
What one likes another may not care for.What another dislikes another loves.
How bout a hybrid cross between a 50s style and 60s style offered in one or 2 piece.That might get you on the path to a middle of the road design that would please a wide cross section of recurve addicts.Not too heavy.Not too light physically.A nice amount of wood showing in the riser but still not too bulky.The riser wood would allow some artistic flare as far as shaping,sculpting,cosmetics and aesthetics.
You would still have the T.D version as an option for the T.D lovers.But you would not have multiple limb options.Oh well too bad.Three pieces are ugly anyway.
I have always liked many of narrow limbed recurves bows with a deep core.Thier elegant and if made right dampen out quickly and are quiet.I like the looks and performance of the 50s style 62 inch Fox breed in this narrow deep core.Its full working and very smooth,quiet,stable and fast.These limbs feel like a longbow somewhat.Alot of 50s style recurves have this type of limb.Some are better than others.The riser on this bow is a bit longer and has gorgous long fadeouts that extend and disappear.The thinnest across I ever had was 1 inch at the fadeouts and was build by Fritz Johnk of Frederick longbows.All the laminations were beautfully tapered to fine whip like tips.Very nice and elegant and unique bow.
Conversely I have had wider limbs that shot great.Brackenbury,Wallace,Jack Howard,Schafer and Blacktails etc.More of a 60s style
As far as limbs you have choices.Full working,semi static,static and the more radical super recurves like Border and Morrisons and a few others.
Deflexed risers,straight risers,setback risers and forward set grips and or reverse handle,Asian etc.
Small diminutive tips are always welcome.
A few differnt grips and custom grip options in this area are always a great idea
I have owned and liked recurves of many styles and of different era's.Had a major bow addiction problem that I have actually gotten over due to poverty.
It would require alot of thought and imagination to come up with a recurve that pleased many archers on a broad spectrum.But I think it could be done.Might come to you in your dreams at night deep in REM.
I would like to see what the creative impulses, instincts and rational thought of your mind come up with in your end game of designing a near perfect curve.Thiers certainly a lot of ideas to consider.
Look forward to seeing what you come with!
Put me on the your test list when it comes to fruition Mike
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I too am on the 2 piece boat. I prefer the bow bolt type. A 59. Kodiak type would surely be a hit. That being said my favorite grip lies somewhere between a Tall tines and Schafer. The late 50's early 60's bows have stood the test of time though and would be hard to go wrong with. Limb wise if I were to copy anyone it would be the Schafer. Smoooth! I like 60" bows as they seem to be the middle ground for compromises.
John
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I too am on the 2 piece boat. I prefer the bow bolt type. A 59. Kodiak type would surely be a hit. That being said my favorite grip lies somewhere between a Tall tines and Schafer. The late 50's early 60's bows have stood the test of time though and would be hard to go wrong with. Limb wise if I were to copy anyone it would be the Schafer. Smoooth! I like 60" bows as they seem to be the middle ground for compromises.
John
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Alright, I think I got all the information I need, thanks for the input. Most input points me towards, bulky risers, 60" -64" lengths, 50's and 60's profile, and 2 piece.
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If there was ever a bow bolt 59 Kodiak style bow in about 62 inches I'd buy one immediately
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Originally posted by mark Willoughby:
If there was ever a bow bolt 59 Kodiak style bow in about 62 inches I'd buy one immediately
:thumbsup: ME TOO!!
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Sorry to disappoint, but I'll not use a bow bolt. Tried it, before. I think it would work fine with synthetic materials like phenolic but I didn't get good results with wood risers. Perhaps in the hands of somebody with better machinery, and engineering skills than I have, the bow bolt is better suited. A guy has to know his limits.
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I too am on the 2 piece boat. I prefer the bow bolt type. A 59. Kodiak type would surely be a hit. That being said my favorite grip lies somewhere between a Tall tines and Schafer. The late 50's early 60's bows have stood the test of time though and would be hard to go wrong with. Limb wise if I were to copy anyone it would be the Schafer. Smoooth! I like 60" bows as they seem to be the middle ground for compromises.
John
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I think you are on the right track. The perfect bow for me is a 67.5/68 Super Kodiak. The medium high grip shape, the ratio of handle to limb length, riser mass makes for a smooth, forgiving and accurate bow (for me). These characteristics are more important than performance for me. I usually go for a 60 inch bow as I feel they match my 28" draw the best.
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I took all the input, and I put wood together last evening to make a form, it'll be 62" - 64" long, slim, and with high wrist or low wrist option. Thanks everyone.
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Can't wait to see one!
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Smokes! That was fast!
I'll test a lefty!
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It's a shame on the bow bolt. That's a deal breaker for me. Come on try some Phenolic or Micarta.
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I've got one of those minds, Bucknut. And I'm not sure you could relate or not. But if I put something out there with a bow bolt in it, especially over 45#, it would vex my thoughts day and night. And I'd rather be at peace, I really dig peace, I value it over most things.
There are those bowyers out there that use it, and have had success, they'll be happy to help you out.
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What about a socket system like widow and big Jims with a little phenolic or micarta? Good mass weight and a solid takedown system ... Just a thought
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Hello Mike,
We are all on tenter-hooks here , waiting to hear how it went..
Personally a 64 inch bow interests me, wo I am particularly curious what you have done
Cheers
Alex
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Same, too short for my 29.5
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I'm curious as well!
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Medium to smaller grip to better accommodate thicker gloves.
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Medium to smaller grip to better accommodate thicker gloves.
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I'm working on it...
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Good hand placement with fat diameter medium or high wrist riser. Has to be good looking dark fine grained woods for the riser, not wide grained like bocote or woods that look like plywood. Good balance after arrow release where the bow just gently rocks forward like the target bows of the past. Smooth draw out to 28 inches. It can stack after that since I have a 26 inch draw. Riser wood should go way up into the limbs like the 1961 and 1962 Bear Kodiaks. Shelf needs to be slightly curved, not flat. I like the looks of wide limbs like most my 1959 through 1962 Bears, but the fastest shooting old Bear I have (1960 K Special) actually has super skinny limbs like the Black Widows made before 1962 and it shoots faster than its cousin bow, a fat limbed 1959 K Special with the same limb length and draw weight.
Main concerns for me is the bow smooth (no sudden weight gain on the draw or stacking) and steady in my hand. For me, its looks are very important. Don't give speed or how quiet a bow shoots as much priority. Slow loud bows shoot good too.
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Bump.. :)
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Got my attention !
58-60" static tip 2 pc take down, preferably bow bolt for the nice weight it adds to the riser. Slim profile !
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Originally posted by ozy clint:
i've always wanted to try a saluki ibex, turk or scythian. asiatic style has intrigued me for a long time.
X2. But I would want it 48" or shorter.
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I see where you said you're going with a little longer bow than you first mentioned. I personally like a 56-58" recurve. I picked up a second hand Hoots Lil Hoot recurve for my wife that's 56", and it's awesome. I've commandeered it for several hunts. I haven't setup anything for posting pictures since the photobucket fiasco started, or I'd post some pictures. It's a forward riser design along the same lines as the Helms Deep from Java Man.
I'd also love to see you produce a 56-58" bow with similar lines to what I mentioned above, but with longbow style limbs. You've been great at producing an awesome product that's affordable, from what I've seen, so it could be a more reasonably priced alternative to an elk heart or a thunderchild, if you will. As popular as those are at $800-$1200, I'd think a quality bow with similar handling and performance in the $400-$600 range should be popular.
Looking forward to seeing whatever you come up with.
Matt
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I'm actually working on two at the moment. One is a variation of the Machete recurve I used to make, but instead of a 46" recurve I'm making it 50" (total length measured along the curve) And I'm working on a 64" as well. The market has plenty of others in the lengths in between. I'll have some done soon and I'll post results and pics.
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60" + for me only
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That's very interesting to hear... I am looking forward to seeing the 64".
Cheers
Alex
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50's style blend of my two favourites:
Toelke Chinook with Cari-bow 2pc grip. 60"-62"
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Awesome. I've never owned a bow shorter than 56", but the one 52" I've shot was nice. I might have to get on the list for one of your 50" ones.
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Originally posted by Mike Mecredy:
I'm actually working on two at the moment. One is a variation of the Machete recurve I used to make, but instead of a 46" recurve I'm making it 50" (total length measured along the curve) And I'm working on a 64" as well. The market has plenty of others in the lengths in between. I'll have some done soon and I'll post results and pics.
Will like to see the short version! I'm thinking horseback archery! :)