First off let me say I'm a fan of the PA antler restrictions.
I've hunted many PA game lands over the years. My father and I have hunted state game land 13 and 57 for over 20 years.
My Dad can't walk as far as he used to, so he's limited in how far he can walk back. I have been back in 13 and 57 over 5 miles and I've found deer, grouse, turkey, coyote. But the last few years deer numbers have been horrible even in those remote locations I hump it back to.
It's come to the point where we aren't going to travel to those game lands anymore during deer season. This is a shame, because some of those areas are beautiful.
Can anyone recommend some pa game lands where if you do your homework you have a chance at seeing deer? I'm not looking for secret spots just an area where my Dad can actually see a deer.
Thanks,
JD
JD I guess I would give the state DEC a call and see if they could recommend a game area. I do think overal the deer numbers are down from the hig in the late 80's. I have friends that hunt the game lands near the NY / PA state line of Binghamton NY. They seem to get a doe or two, but I am sorry I do not know the number or name. They are made up of hard woods and some overgrown older type fields that were logged off several years ago. I have a bad leg and was thinging of getting a PA lic to hunt with them and the area seemed to be great for me as well due to me being a physically challenged hunter, that means I have the heart to hunt but no longer can make those 5 mile walk in to get back away from the roads...
best to you and I hope you find a area that meets your needs.
Bill
Uh...don't get too excited. The antler restrictions are fine,but our game commision has been on on a herd reduction mission for a long time. I have only hunted 3 times this year. It's just not worth it. My brothers just got back from our camp, state land, they didn't see a deer in 3 days, and hardly any sign. We keep thinking it can't get worse, but it keeps getting worse. Our habitat needs improvement, so the killed all the deer and now we wait. Instead of actually cutting, planting..etc. I'll be dead before we have good deer numbers again. Some pockets and private land have deer, those guys tell us that don't have that access that we just don't know how to hunt. Around it goes.
Hunting here with a bow is no longer enjoyable.
Unless you are the kind that like to talk to Chipmunks.
Tedd
Tedd,
I'm as frustrated as I can be with public land hunting in general. I too, see almost no deer.
However, my conclusions might differ some.
here goes w/ a prayer that this gets said tight and well.
On state game lands, bought and paid for by us, hunters, I find heavy erosion ditches worn deep on steep hillsides back in areas that should provide some decent hunting. Horse prints. Constant pressure by people on horses or not, in the high impact East, is different that out West. That and bikes and horses are to stay on groomed trails and they don't. Gotta have some impact on the critters to be constantly exposed to trail riders (not on trails!). :(
Park ranger at Muddy Run in S. Lanc. Co said that his deer counts, done several times/day throughout the year, show doubling from Noon of the first day of ARCHERY season through end of hunting in Jan! Amazing...response to pressure in 4 hrs! Wow!
Many area adjacent to some state game lands, Conservation lands, etc, are now heavily posted.
I see much sign on way into stands in the dark. No deer during day. Seems they've gone nocturnal.
I find ladder stands and tree stands hung in the deepest bedding cover...w/ binoculars. Seems there is no place left untrammled.
As more land is posted, leased, whatever, more and more pressure is on public land.
Much of game lands around here have decent access from more than one side...ergo, someone is in most areas.
With all that pressure, there has to be more deer killed...
When we only could hunt bucks, then does wondered by over and over throughout the day. Now that we can shoot both, gun and bow (with tags of course) it seems reasonable that the does become scarce like the bucks. They ain't stupid now that they've become "prey" more'n 3 days a year!
My conclusion, albeit a monday morning quarter back call is that a) too much pressure with too much nearby escape posted ground makes it easy for deer to go nocturnal on public access b) "multi-use" by other groups year-round has manifold increased the pressure, c)deer pattern hunters far better'n we pattern deer!
I just don't see it only as the lower numbers, which I can't argue has to be true...but I also see wayyy too much fresh sign daily in the AM dark going in to think the deer are vanished, they just ain't out and about when we're there trying to whack their behinds!
There...$.02. :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Tedd:
Uh...don't get too excited. The antler restrictions are fine,but our game commision has been on on a herd reduction mission for a long time. I have only hunted 3 times this year. It's just not worth it. My brothers just got back from our camp, state land, they didn't see a deer in 3 days, and hardly any sign. We keep thinking it can't get worse, but it keeps getting worse. Our habitat needs improvement, so the killed all the deer and now we wait. Instead of actually cutting, planting..etc. I'll be dead before we have good deer numbers again. Some pockets and private land have deer, those guys tell us that don't have that access that we just don't know how to hunt. Around it goes.
Hunting here with a bow is no longer enjoyable.
Unless you are the kind that like to talk to Chipmunks.
Tedd
Wow, that's pretty much how I feel...
I live in SE PA in bucks county. Deer are plentiful here on private land. I have a farm to hunt but I can't take my Dad on it. Now the game lands in SE PA have a few deer but with so little land and so many hunters that after the first week of archery season you're lucky if you see a deer.
The deer are either nocturnal or gone.
Now we used to hunt state game land 13 and 57 which are in north central pa. I've seen one buck in three years of hunting those lands. I also let it walk in hopes my Dad or brother would get it. No such luck. The does have just been decimated by herd mismanagement in those north central areas. Once the does are gone off those lands, the bucks are soon to follow. Why would a buck troll land that isn't going to be productive.
I'm all about the antler restrictions and for proper herd management. In South PA there are too many does, but in those north central counties it's really a shame what's been done.
Now with that being said...
I hit those same game lands in late February early March coyote hunting in the snow. I've walked 5 miles back off the road. I see tons of deer sign when the deer "herds" up for the winter.
I just need a new area to hunt in PA.
I wish the game commission could publish harvested deer numbers for each game land or at least by public WMU area. I think that would open some eyes to the problems going on in some areas.
I think the Pa Game Comm. knows what the problem is.
The Pa GC HAS to give out over 400,000 permits every year for them to enough money to exist.Without that money they wouldn't have ANY!
AR restrictions are great if you don't kill too many does.Not enough young bucks to see a future in hunting Pa anymore.
Best
Bob
There's a better chance you'll see bigfoot then a deer on the Game lands. I see a good bit on private property in York (including my driveway), however people are so reluctant to let you hunt their land.
QuoteOriginally posted by stumpsniper:
There's a better chance you'll see bigfoot then a deer on the Game lands. I see a good bit on private property in York (including my driveway), however people are so reluctant to let you hunt their land.
LOL
Come up to Bedford County...they didn't kill them all here. JD, anytime you want to make a trip here I can put you where there are deer. No guarantees you'll get one of course, but the doom and gloom people tend to take over the microphone anymore. And yes, it will be on public land.
Our deer are coming back nicely here and we're seeing bigger bucks than ever. By the way....no deer will ever be killed unless the hunters pull the triggers.
I disagree that horseback riders and bikers/hikers make the deer more wary. I hunt state parks in MD that get a lot of non-consumptive use. In fact my wife rides in one of them. I've watched deer standing 20 yards off the trail watch a horse and rider walk by. My wife sees many more deer than I do. To the point where I've thought of hunting off horseback!
I think in some cases, hunters who've been hunting particular grounds for decades often don't realize how the habitat and deer use of those areas change over time. The changes are gradual and spread out over years so many people don't realize it until they no longer see deer. I've heard many similar complaints from the Adirondacks in NY. Hunters who hunted in the 50s and 60s still blame the DEC for a doe hunt in 1970 or coyotes for the lack of deer today. Never mind that the even age second growth forests created when the park was celarcut int he 1800s are now mature and provide little food on forever wild state lands. The fact is, if the habitat is there, the deer will quickly rebound from temporary declines. A deer herd can double every 5 years given good habitat. I see way to many dead deer on the roads in PA to beleive that deer hunting will never return to its former glory on state lands. It just needs some time for the overbrowsed habitat to recover and keeping the herd low to give it a break is probably in order.
These jerks in PA hve pretty much ruined a way of life for me and many others. I do not have realistic access to any area that has a huntable population of deer. If by some mystery the population of any animal, or insect other than deer dropped as quickly as the deer numbers in PA we would have a national crisis with al gore blaming global warming! I just don't get it, we have the ability to improve the habitat in a few short years, but we just have to sit by.
I hunted in Wyoming the last two years in rough extremly dry country. The abundance of every kind of game is just unbelievable. There is litrally a deer behind every bush. we have better habitat but just a tiny fraction of the deer.
If all those thousands of acres of state land that they think is so great to hunt on was privatley owned I feel pretty sure that private land owners would have deer and healthy timber.
We have people telling me I shopuld just enjoy the time in the woods and not expect to see deer! Huh? I can walk in the woods anytime. I go to kill a buck, I like getting one!
My targets are still fun too shot at.
Tedd
Tedd
I've hunted many places across the country. PA has some of the most dense deer populations in the country. I'm living near Pittsburgh, and I've never seen anything like it. Deer are like destructive rats here. I've lived here 9 months and I don't think I've gone a day without seeing a deer somewhere. I've been successful just shooting them from my yard in the suburbs.
I'm all for herd reduction where appropriate, but I know not all of PA is in that situation. Perhaps the largest game lands need special management to bring their numbers up, while many private lands remain liberal killing fields. People want "QUALITY" deer, but they can't get it when they number 10 times the land's carrying capacity.
It has to be understood that the places that were good 40 years ago may not be good now, simply because deer populations once got out of hand and destroyed their own habitat, allowing many non-native plant species to take over and no regrowth to occur.
Deer are their own worst enemy. Recovery of the land takes decades. In the meantime, do the world a favor and kill the feeders (young does and button bucks) in an over-populated WMU.
I live in north central Pa, and I can tell you our herd is way down. I hunt remote areas of State forest and Gamelands and very rarely see anyone. DCNR is cutting state forest land like crazy and putting nothing back, they fence every area cut for regeneration purposes. The only thing regenerating in striped maple, poplar, and sassafras. The game commission has cut their budget and doesn't put money back into their food plots. The quality bucks we're suppose to have are non existent, I'm 66 and hunt just about every day, archery , rifle, flintlock and It's very discouraging to take my grandson's out and not see deer. Private land, and there's more each year, with high protien food plots are creating quality deer, but I didn't support the Pa Game Commission all these years to be forced to buy my on land and start my own deer management program. There's no bang for the hunters buck, just higher salaries in the commission.Lobbyist have done an excellant job in controlling our Game Commission.
I used to live in SE PA. There are deer there because of the amount of suburbs that surround philly. My folks live 10 mins from the city limits and every night there are over 10 deer in their backyard. I also hunt Tioga Forest in Northern PA. There are no deer in that area. I see more deer by accident in the gorge behind my house then I have spending hours in a tree stand in Tioga. You combine that with no hunting on Sunday and you soon see that PA sucks. If you are hunting Tioga you are better off driving about an hour north and going to Connecticut hill or even better is the Arnot Forest but you need a permit from Cornell University to hunt it. Both areas are over 16,000 acres and they feed into each other. According to an old timer whose cabin I stay at - There are too many poachers and city folk that will kill anything that moves in Tioga. He said that in the 70s it could have been one of the best places in the country. I will say that PA has some quality fly fishing.
My camp is Tioga/Lycoming county. Thousads of acres of public land.
Scoter,
The game commission sold more permits when it was only a 3 day doe season in order to get the harvest numbers that they wanted. This meant more money. Now they don't sell as many because rifle hunters have more time to fill their tag including the very important Saturdays.
As far as the horses and bikers on gamelands, My position is that they shouldn't necessarilly be banned from that use on the gamelands.
However, they should be required to purchase a hunting license in order to support the resources that they are enjoying free of charge. They should be patroled and penalized for leaving groomed trails.
As far as the herd in the north Central section. It has been so unbalanced for so long that people thought it was normal. Herd reduction should have taken place 25 years ago. My thoughts are that they need to start selectively harvesting some of the state and national forest to get income from that resource and to improve the habitat.
One thing that I have noticed up abround Marienville, President, and up to Bradford is the amount of camps for sale. Where the population hunts is shifting to other areas. I predict that we will see the herd become unbalanced again in the near future with too many deer and not enough hunters.
As far as gamelands,
Some good ones on the west side of the state are Area 39, Area 151, and Hillman State Park (which is run as a gameland).
The biggest problem I have had this year is lack of mast due to Gypsy moths wiping out oaks. No acorns, no deer. Also, It seems deer are very nocturnal this year so far. I think this is due to warmer weather then we are used to this time of year. If I find acorns, I have found deer. The problem, I only see them just before sun rise and after sun set. During the day, I see nothing, no squirrels, no birds, no deer. How ever, the deer are there. I hear all kinds of complaints. The forest cutting etc. has been improving the land in my area. Things change, we get used to deer doing certain things in a certain area. When habits change , we freak out and blame every thing under the sun for it. I've had to do a lot more work this year, hunting harder, moving to different areas. The deer are around. Why are so many splattered on the road if they are all gone? Expectations will always kicks ya in the ass.
I know some guys who hunt PA and i believe the deer numbers are down and the cause is many things but one of them is the way the herd is managed. Just like in NY, the conservation guys see way to many deer like the late 80s and 90s and keep managing the same old way. They should revise the laws every 2-3 years as the herd changes and account for rough winters and road kill, coyotes and a bunch of factors, they are always 10 years behind and by that time it is too late and it takes years for our herds to recover. In the area I hunt in NY which I have a 140 acres of private land and I am the only one who hunt it(bow only)my sightings are down 80% of what they were 4-5 years ago. Shawn
The one thing I don't understand with the game commission is the way the management units are set up. Just from reading these posts, It depends where you are as to whether there are any deer. The management units need to be smaller, not larger than the per county units that it use to be.
Steve
I am not a complainer, but I hunt SGL 51 in Fayette county. I don't need to see 20 deer a day, but it's nice to see at least one. Last archery season I was off work and hunted 3-4 times a week and saw a total of 5 deer the entire 6 week season. Talk about frustrated. This year I had back surgery and have been out once photographing but the outlook isn't much better. I love to bowhunt and enjoy just being out there, but is also nice to have some meat in the freezer too.
If you think it's bad now...wait to see what happens to hunting in PA if the legislature takes over the PGC... :eek: :banghead:
Even the highly berated Gary Alt shared in private once what I thought was a head nod to my thought that smaller management as in "site specific" would be better. Some states I've hunted had extra doe permits on "private" land where on heavily hunted public, not so!
Lots of ideas. And the neat thing is that while some above seem to have their mind made up, some seem to realize there are a lot of variables in something this complex... and we might just be one of the variables. :)
I contacted the game commission through their website this week. I gave some observations and was looking for more information. I received a smart-@#$ comment back from the person on the other end of the email communication. I got a name. I then called my regional office to get a different contact and forward the string of correspondence I had through email. I was on hold for 25 minutes and finally hung up.
I've met plenty of PA conservation officers in my time and I've always shown respect and always come out with a positive experience. I expect the same respect to be shown to me when I contact the commission. The person I corresponded with thorugh email is the press secretary for the PA game commission for goodness sakes! I would think they would be a little better in public relations.
I can't wait to actually talk to a conservation officer to let them know my experience.
Ugh, frustrating.
Doc Nock mentioned Gary Alt, it was through his efforts that the current management program was set up. Explain to me how you have better control of an area when you lump ten counties under the same management area. The terrain is so different that no program can cover all. Understand I know we needed a system to get our out of balance herd in proper ratio, I just feel it went too far the other way. Deer hunting was the commission's cash cow, thats disappearring and the number of out of stater's is also dropping, in our area that means more camps on the market. No simple cure but one I believe in is smaller management areas.
I have yet to see a deer. I don't know if I'll even go out anymore this year.
I leased some ground in VA but can't find the time to use it. My Brother-in-law hunted it last week and saw 20 deer per day and passed n some small bucks. what a difference. PA sucks!
I keep hearing people blame the game commission for the lack of deer "up north". That might be true. I can only say from my previous experience working in the timber industry and being in the woods almost daily, that the deer herd is altering the composition of the "forest" and the impacts reverberate amongst all other game species. I'm willing to see be objective to see how this turns out knowing the current situation is not sustainable.
Let's not forget what a great job the coyote has done coming on line here in PA and we all know our Bear population is expanding. Here's a link about fawn mortality and the star performers are coyotes and bears.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=465&q=152750
I don't think it's any one thing that is causing the change in deer herd.
Tedd---hang in there. I don't think Pa sucks (except for lack of sunday hunting) but I can only imagine how frustrating it is to have a camp upstate not seeing deer.
Richard,
I probably should NOT have even brought it up, so let me clarify. In my time living in MT, then VA they had what they called "site specific management." That meant from one ridge to another ---seasons, species and bag limits changed. Very taxing, but I admired it.
I mentioned this to Gary and, best memory serves me that many years ago, he mumbled something about "having merit... but you have to work with the system available" Whatever his comment was specifically, let me take responsiblity for "thinking" that he'd have preferred much smaller management units in agreement with models I'd shared like above.
Obviously, while he was the one in charge of the overall concept for deer management, I think it unlikely he had carte blance to set all the rules for all aspects. I heard other of the "Commissioners" voice their opinion that we needed fewer, not more, management units. Bam. We got some honking big 'uns now.
If PA would just implement a bit more conservative policies on public lands, like VA, I "wonder" if it might help. No crystal ball in my poke, but it's a curiosity. Where they get hammered, back off some...where it's private, whack and stack if need be.
Just too complex for my head...makes my brain sweat!
Doc,
We share a few of the same ideas, hopefully the game commission directors will start listening to the hunters in earnest.
Don't even get me started JD on Commissioners... We pay scientist to study, recommend and do what they are hired to do to have these political machines do exactly opposite. And then we blame the PGC...best I can tell its more these individuals who seem to be answerable only to themselves that are the problem, not the PGC per se.
Although..the comment above of rude behavior from a PGC representative is indeed concerning
Allow me to throw my opinions in here. I agree with alot of what Doc has to say.
There are some factors to be taken into consideration as far as PA hunting as compared to other states. PA sells over 200,000 archery stamps each year. That's alot of bowhunters in the woods! I'm sure that when everybody used to see a lot more deer, it was before this explosion took place. Also, more and more priveate lands are being posted than ever before. This puts a great amount of pressure on Game Lands.
As far as getting harvest numbers to determine future tag allocations, I have heard numerous people claim that they shot a deer, and butchered it, without tagging it. By the way, most of this came from hunters from "Up North" where there are NO DEER! How can you accurately determine allocations, when the hunters(and I use that term loosely) won't legally tag and report harvested deer. The game commission actually has a formula they use to calculate unsent tags. That's pathetic!
I also find the GAme Comission at fault. They cater to politics, and not listening to the biologists who are making suggestions. The WMA theory is ridiculous. The areas are too large, and the allocation system is horrible. But we can't take away the revenue for the county treasurers can we.
In summing it up, I'm just saying I believe there are a lot of factors in PA contributing to this problem. To blame one group is probably shortsighted.
The answer? Couldn't tell you. I do see deer sign when I go out, but I believe like Doc that it's nocturnal activity now. Just means I have to hunt a little harder and smarter from now on.
Thank you for putting up with my time on the soapbox, I'm goin hunting!
Lee :wavey:
I live in the N.W. corner of the state and have Game Lands all around me. I happen to have access to more than 500 acres of private farmland to hunt too. Are the deer numbers down...YOU BET THEY ARE! Are there deer on the Game Lands...yes. I've found that it just takes a massive amount of foot work and continous scouting to keep tabs on the deer that we have compared to 10 yrs. ago. I hunted at least 4 times a week this season and finally shot my buck on the 30th. During that time I saw a grand total of 9 buck and 17 doe. I had stands hung from behind my house to 11 miles away. It's tuff but there's deer. To the original person who started this post...you're more than welcome to come up here to hunt and I can show you deer on Game Lands that are not difficult to get to.
Longbowman: "I hunted at least 4 times a week this season"
...and thats what I'm talking about, only a select few can put in the time to get themselves "into" deer. I know how to hunt as good as the next guy, but without time to find the few straglers of deer, hunting them is pretty much a joke. I have no desire to even go out.
Tedd, You get no argument from me on this one. I am very privileged to be able to get out as much as I do. My son got to hunt even more than I did but he didn't put the leg work into it and has only seen 6 deer all year and none in shooting position. It's very hard out there. I too like the antler restriction but I believe it should be the same state wide with 3 points on one antler. I had a one morning two evening period that I had 3 different buck over 16" inside spread that didn't have the 4th point on one antler and had to let them walk.
I hunt mostly state game lands and have been successful and fustrated at the same time. However this year has not been a banner year. I usually see up to 20 or more deer per archery season, per 6-7 days of evening hunts. This year I have seen only 3 deer and jump two, I have been out for only 5 days of hunting. I hunt in upper York County and I think the new home construction is part of the problem and land being posted with no hunting. I also hunt on one private property that has an abundance of deer. This property is in a residental area and each home has at least 5 acres. Last year I harvested a big doe and could not get the bucks to come close enough to get a decent shot. I saw 5 legal bucks on this property and was very excited to hunt on this property this Saturday during the rutt. While checking in with the property owner, they decided to not allow hunting on their property because a friend of theirs was sued from a neighbor because a rifle hunter's bullet hit their property. They did not want any liability isssues. There are deer around but they are not in public lands. Why should deer run in public land when they are being fed expensive landscaping and being protected?
QuoteOriginally posted by BigHink66:
Scoter,
The game commission sold more permits when it was only a 3 day doe season in order to get the harvest numbers that they wanted. This meant more money. Now they don't sell as many because rifle hunters have more time to fill their tag including the very important Saturdays.
As far as the horses and bikers on gamelands, My position is that they shouldn't necessarilly be banned from that use on the gamelands.
However, they should be required to purchase a hunting license in order to support the resources that they are enjoying free of charge. They should be patroled and penalized for leaving groomed trails.
As far as the herd in the north Central section. It has been so unbalanced for so long that people thought it was normal. Herd reduction should have taken place 25 years ago. My thoughts are that they need to start selectively harvesting some of the state and national forest to get income from that resource and to improve the habitat.
One thing that I have noticed up abround Marienville, President, and up to Bradford is the amount of camps for sale. Where the population hunts is shifting to other areas. I predict that we will see the herd become unbalanced again in the near future with too many deer and not enough hunters.
As far as gamelands,
Some good ones on the west side of the state are Area 39, Area 151, and Hillman State Park (which is run as a gameland).
I think all those camps are for sale is because so many deer are gone and the hunter numbers are dropping in PA.
Thanks for the info on 39 and 151, I'll check them out.
Good to see you post, Lee. :) Better to see ya at the door sometime! :)
When I was living in central PA, there were game lands that would take you the better part of a full day of hard hiking to get across. Down here in the SE, the lands are way too accessable from multiple directions to find any "hidey holes'.
There is one..along the river. I did find some hellacious trails diving right off the steep sides and a few tiny benches... with decent sign on them.
But, y'know, at my age, I'm just about fat enough and learned enough to know I don't want to stick one there and have it peel off down to the river and RR beds and even THINK about having to find a way to truck that sucker back kup...especially a nice fat doe or buck.
Yup. I admit. There are some places I used to go and just don't anymore. I leave that to those who are younger, in better shape and more daring than myself.
Lee, I don't THINK the deer on most of the public property in our area are nocturnal, I know it! :) When I was outa work, I'd get to go pretty regularly at times till gas $$ ran out and I'd find fresh rubs & scrapes coming in at dead dark 30 in the AM and no deer moved all day, "rinse and repeat" (sorry..that's a shampoo analogy for folks with hair, Lee! :) ).
I could've made gas $$ though selling sandwhiches and drinks to all the guys in the parking lot were I smarter and more entreprenural! :bigsmyl: