When a release is botched (torqued string, plucking, creeping, etc, etc), a recurve seems to amplify the mistake, whereas a longbow puts the arrow closer to the point of aim. Generally speaking.
Why is this?
Best regards, Skychief
I have heard that as well. Can't answer it.
I just know as hard as I have practised with my longbows, I am still more accurate with my recurve.
And, I have been practising with my longbows a lot. I think I might go see Arne.
First of all, the term longbow encompasses many variations of bow styles, which technically fall into that category. Longbows like ASL, English LBs, R/D LBs and handle forward LBs like the Shrew, Java Man..., and they're not all created equal when it comes to forgeability.
That said, I will venture a guess at why some LB's may be more forgiving than other bows. My guess would be that LBs with a higher brace height, somewhere in the 8"-9" range, are more forgiving because the power stroke is shorter, and the arrow is on the string less time to be affected by shooting errors.
On a side note, I have always read, or have been told, that recurves are more forgiving than longbows. That is why many archers have trouble shooting LBs, myself included.I'm sure we will get some varying options on that here though.
I think it is subjective. Each individual may find they shoot one or the other better.
Howard Hill felt that longbows were more forgiving. One reason in support of his position would be that recurved tips are more prone to torquing. You can bend them back and forth easily, but it is difficult to bend a longbow tip in a sideways direction. So I would think that if you torque a recurve string, it will have more effect on the bow tips and POI than if you torque a longbow string.
OTOH, I shoot recurves better than I shoot longbows. In the tournaments I shoot in, there are separate recurve and longbow divisions, and the recurve division usually turns in higher scores. The bows are set up the same: off the shelf, no sights or stabilizers, etc. I'm sure the top guys in each division all practice just as much, and shoot the best longbows or recurves they can find. Of course, occasionally the best longbow shooter will turn in a higher score than the best recurve shooter, but not very often, and not on average.
Probably the answer is that the best shooters don't torque their strings, so that factor is out of the equation!
The way I see it, every time I try shooting a longbow I end up asking for forgiveness.
Seriously, I love the way a longbow feels and how the shot feels, but can't shoot them as good as recurves. Always suspected that it was because of the lighter physical weight of the longbow. But, I have a 57 Kodiak that is as light as any bow . It is one of the best shooting bows I own. :dunno:
Everyone's different, but for me, it's a longer BH that makes a bow more forgiving. Some find a longer bow more forgiving, but for me, it's a 8"+ brace height that does it. Love longbows, but I'll shoot more accurately with say, a 58" recurve w/ 8" BH, than a 68" longbow w/ 6 1/2" brace.
I can honestly shoot better with Hill style bows at 6" brace height than a D/R with a higher brace height. It might have something to do with how comfortable(repeatable)the grip is. I rarely shoot recurves, but when I do it doesn't take long to get back in to the groove.
The forgiveness of a longbow will show up when taking fast shots in varied circumstances. If your shooting form is more a straight draw, straight armed, slower, static style, a recurve would be a better bow for you.
I can't tell the difference. Both put holes in my barn but never the bullseye. :banghead: :biglaugh:
Honestly though, I don't notice any "forgivness" differences between the two. I prefer a longbow, but arrow flight and accuracy are very close for me. I do think that some longbows put the arrow closer down to the bow hand then some recurves.
At the end of the day if your poor form is affecting the arrow with a recurve its still going to affect the arrow with a longbow. There are no magical short cuts to proper form.
I always assumed that by more forgiving it meant from awkward positions. I can shoot my straight end longbow way better from odd positions than my recurve. If I need to shoot from a laying down position, my recurve tips will often get torqued and throw the shot where as my longbow won't have that issue.
My recurves also seem more sensitive to a bad release. If I pluck with my recurve, my arrow may fly a foot wide at 15 yards, where as my longbow will still put it where it needs to go. That's just how I've always looked at it anyways. There are lots of people out there who know far more about this than I do.
I am in the recurve camp for being more forgiving. I have tried a few longbows, but always shoot better with recurves. I always thought it had a lot to do with my recurves being cut beyond center.
A top ILF with a 25" or 27" riser and long limbs is probably the most forgiving bow you can shoot.
But the bow be it recurve or LB is only as forgiving as the guy shooting it.
As McDave pointed out, the biggest difference between a true longbow (ASL) and recurves and hybrids is the narrow, thick stacked limb of the longbow vs the wide thin limb of the recurve. Just much more difficult to pull a longbow limb out of alignment through torquing (sideways or vertical). Thus, it is more forgiving of torquing, plucking, uneven string pressure, etc., i.e., the effects of those actions aren't as great as they are on a recurve. The longer limbs also help to ameliorate those form errors as well, compared to a shorter limbed recurve.
That being said, newer materials and layups have come a long way toward making recurves more forgiving as well. Most folks shoot a recurve more accurately on the target line where the extra mass and flatter trajectory is an advantage. The forgiving characteristics of a true longbow tend to give it the advantage in hunting situations where shooting conditions are more variable.
OK , this one time I was talking with Byron Ferguson and he explained to me that you can't shoot a longbow the same way you shoot a recurve .
But you can shoot a recurve the same way that you shoot a longbow .
He also said that the longbow is touching the string in only two points , thus having less influence on the string .
Recurve limbs can be pulled out of alignment during the draw and there will be a side to side movement in the limb tips when you release .
Don't know if that explains it enough , but that's what Mr. Ferguson told me .
It kinda makes sense .
I've never felt a Longbow was more forgiving, don't think I've heard it said by anybody else either. That being said, I don't find a recurve any more difficult than a Longbow with similar mass in the riser. Now you start getting into one piece super light mass longbows and they are the twitchyess of all the bows I've shot! I have a one piece Toelke Whip Longbow I shoot pretty real well but not as good or consistent as my three piece Toelke Lynx Longbow of similar specs!
I've heard the same. Modern materials have taken a lot of the RC problems out of that equation though. The arrow still goes off target when I don't do my part regardless of bow type. For me grip and mass weight have the most influence on accuracy. I've had RCs that I can't shoot for crap same as I've had LBs. But when you find that perfect combo for you, you know it. It is a trade off for me. I love the feel of a light longbow, but if it takes 10% off my accuracy its not worth it.
I don't know about forgiving ( I've been divorced twice) but for me I shoot a Hill style bow better than any I've ever shot. The longer the better. You just look, draw, release and the arrow goes where it's supposed to.
Everybody got to know their limitations. Mine is Hill style bow. I love the feel, nostalgia, etc. but never would have hunted with it seriously because I did not have the confidence in myself to make a killing shot. As for forgiving, I am still waiting on that one. Personally I think it's a heavier arrow that makes a "forgiving" shot.
There is always higher scores at the shoots with recurves than longbows so I don't know how a longbow could be more forgiving. I think opposite but the recurves, especially takedowns, have more physical weight and that makes them more stable and easier to shoot accurately . You make a bad shot its bad regardless what bow you are shooting.
Just one of those old mythes that guys have read or heard and keep repeating. How straight limbs are don't matter much in how a guy shoots his bow better than another. There are many mythes that just die hard. Like the myth that I find odd "longbows cast a heavy arrow well". ?????? To me that says "my bow is slow but I'll shoot heavier arrows so it's not all that bad".
What McDave, Orion and Graps said.
If you torque, have inconsistent anchor, and a bad release, a longbow is not going to "forgive" you anymore than a recurve will. Bad form is bad form.
I always thought the whole forgiveness thing was a bunch of hooey.
I know that my Bear Montana does not forgive me.
It grants me total and unconditional absolution for sloppy, open stances, floating anchors and not thinking about my back muscles.
I think it is more in the design of the individual bow, and the tendencies of the individual shooter. That's why half the responses here say recurves are more forgiving, and half say longbows! I pretty much only hunt with my longbow because I prefer the way it shoots and feels. I shoot my recurve at 3D shoots because I can play more. Most of the time my scores are neck and neck with each other. It does make me mad when I do beat my longbow score with the recurve, just because of all the time I put into shooting the longbow!!!
As far as which one is more forgiving, I can't tell much difference in the longbows and recurve (I only own one recurve) that I have.
Bisch
QuoteOriginally posted by Graps:
OK , this one time I was talking with Byron Ferguson and he explained to me that you can't shoot a longbow the same way you shoot a recurve .
But you can shoot a recurve the same way that you shoot a longbow .
He also said that the longbow is touching the string in only two points , thus having less influence on the string .
Recurve limbs can be pulled out of alignment during the draw and there will be a side to side movement in the limb tips when you release .
Don't know if that explains it enough , but that's what Mr. Ferguson told me .
It kinda makes sense .
Absolutely!
I spent 8 years of my trad experience shooting Browning and Bear recurves. Did okay! However, later on in my hunting career I started shooting a narrow/thick limbed (Hill style)longbow and when faced with a 20 yard target, I did well with either bow...the edge given to the longbow. When hunting with the longbow on the ground and in the trees, having to shoot at odd angles and uncomfortable positions the recurve lost the battle.
If you are standing on the line, comfortable, with time on your side, the 'curve can be a good friend but if you need to rely on instinct in an unpredictable and changing scenerio, with limited windows of opportunity, my experience gives the edge to the straight limbed longbow.
One of the most difficult things to develop is shot timing, when hunting. Okay, maybe not for the guy sitting in a blind by a feeder, but for the ground stalker and small game hunter. It is important to decide what kind of shot you want to be able to take. Not all recurves are finicky and slow on the point, but many ASLs are not at all finicky and very fast handling. For the Hill shooter that has followed John Schulz and Hill, they know when the bow gave them some working room that many recurves cannot provide. Those that are more in the static straight up shooting style will either not understand it or simply deny it. The stiffer static style is much easier and quicker to learn, but it comes with limitations. Larger rivered hybrid bows are much closer to recurves than longbows for handling, aiming and general use. A recurve grip will straighten out the bow arm and bow wrist a little to comply with the grip, while the straight griped longbow likes to have a bit of flex in the bow arm. I have shot birds, clay pigeons and coins out of the air with both, the differences are not all that distinct for benefits, but the simple ASL does win in the fast handling race most of the time.
Orion hit the nail on the head. Its all science. Generally longbows limbs are narrower and thicker which makes them less effected by variables in release.Its that simple. And the longer the bow the smoother the release as well.
Now as far as accuracy with perfect form on both..I would say the recurve generally is flatter shooting making it easier to shoot variable distances.
Bow design of both recurve and longbows vary so much now that the answer is not simple as a steadfast rule.
I have noticed in my own experience that longbows seem to be more accurate for me in cold weather where I have plucked the string or had poor form due to being cold. I hunt with both and success is pretty much the same. Generally if you shoot well..both work !!!!
I recently ordered a bow from what I believe to be a good bowyer with a good knowledge of building bows.
I asked this question as I was trying to decide between a recurve or longbow.
His reply was guarded as he didn't want to tarnish any other bowyers reputation. But what he said makes sense to this simple mind. He said if the bowyer does his job and builds a bow the way it should be then it doesn't matter if it's a longbow or recurve. If it's not shooting well it's the shooter.
Pretty simple but makes sense.
-Jeremy
2x
Well , I think it depends on the geometrie of the bow, whether recurve, longbow or hybrid!
Can't hardly disagree that shooting accuracy/shooting a bow well rests with the shooter, but this thread is about a bow's forgiving properties, i.e., characteristics that enable the bow to partially accommodate and ameliorate some shooting/form errors or just make the bow more comfortable to shoot..
When I try to shoot my Groves recurve as fast I always can shoot my longbows, it is a guessing game where the arrow will end up. My normal right hand tempo with a longbow is a smooth one second. If I try to shoot 6 or 8 arrows out of the Groves that fast the arrows will spray as big as a big watermelon at 20 yards. There is a difference. Although, that difference is more noticeable from a Hill style shooter's perspective than from a static style shooter.
I believe forgiveness in a bow comes from 3 things. 1 mass weight in riser...2 bow length...3 how forward the grip is. A bow with all this will be a shooter and forgiving. I also believe that if you are a longbowman like say shooting Hill style bows you will only have the advantage of length and your form will be spot on if you are gonna shoot as accurate as you would with a recurve thats much shorter with a heavy riser.
In short for me I don`t expect dime hitting accuracy at 20 yards with a long hold. I shoot longbows because I seem to be able to get on target quick and shoot with a faster hold allowing me to shoot a few more pounds of bow weight with a bad neck and shoulder. I`m no 3d man and the advantages of a quick pointing longbow with a fast style of shooting make them forgiving enough for me to crack ribs in the woods. RC
For me I think it is in the grip. A grip that naturally fits into my hand and as I draw it just doesn't torque is "forgiving". Makes no difference if it is a longbow or recurve. Some bow grips I just do not shoot well. And of course this can vary from person to person - thus a bow that is not forgiving to me, may be to someone else.
QuoteOriginally posted by skychief:
When a release is botched (torqued string, plucking, creeping, etc, etc), a recurve seems to amplify the mistake, whereas a longbow puts the arrow closer to the point of aim. Generally speaking.
Why is this?
Best regards, Skychief
Skychief, great post with a lot of good info posted in the answers. For me, started with a hill style longbow then went to recurves (Bear Kodiak Hunter and Assenheimer) and found the recurves consistently out preformed, for me, longbows. I have a 56" Shrew that shoots well, yet I just never seem to get the same consistency with it. My recurves are both heavier, 55# and 57# at my draw length, than I now can now comfortably pull. So I am shooting the 53# shrew all the time now and no matter how much time I spend with it I still miss the steadiness of recurves. Just my view and it is different for all. Great post thanks.
I've never notices a difference....I shoot both longbows and recurves with the same accuracy. Never have understood that statement...but maybe some folks for lends itself to one style of bow over another.
I do like hunting with longbows better though...I feel they are not as fragile and I don't have to worry and keeping up with a stringer :biglaugh:
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
The forgiveness of a longbow will show up when taking fast shots in varied circumstances. If your shooting form is more a straight draw, straight armed, slower, static style, a recurve would be a better bow for you.
yep...I agree with this.
I would agree with Terry provided the grips are of the same style. I shape my grips the same regaurdless longbow or curve. Can be as accurate with one as the other.
QuoteOriginally posted by skychief:
When a release is botched (torqued string, plucking, creeping, etc, etc), a recurve seems to amplify the mistake, whereas a longbow puts the arrow closer to the point of aim. Generally speaking.
Why is this?
Best regards, Skychief
I haven't been shooting trad long enough (even after many thousands of shots) to say that I can absolutely vouch for the validity of this (I've been shooting only a little over a year now).
For the first six months I shot my two recurves. Towards the last couple of months of last year I already knew that I wanted to shoot Hill style, so I started to transition over my style on the recurves. But since my Hill ASL arrived in January, I've only been shooting longbow.
I've seen it stated several times that such and such longbow "shoots where you aim it". That may be true, but I would say that there' a big "IF" that needs to qualify that statement. The "IF" has to do with whether you are shooting (assuming a straight grip longbow)
with the appropriate "longbow" technique. But if one tries to shoot it like a medium or high wrist grip recurve, then I would say that it is not more forgiving.
I do agree with the statement that "you can shoot a recurve like a longbow, but you cannot shoot a longbow like a recurve".
Although there are always exceptions (as there are some exceptional individuals in this world), I would say that in general, one cannot shoot recurve well, and then just "try" a longbow to see if it is more forgiving.
Because before it starts "forgiving" you, you most likely will have to go through a considerably long phase of getting acquainted, and getting slapped in the face (figuratively speaking)!
Just my two cents.
Best wishes,
Frank
I would go with longer bows are more forgiving than shorter ones.
I am currently trying to talk some sense into a 56" Browing Wasp and I have to work carefully at every release.
Howdy Stumpkiller!
I can relate. Before this 64" longbow, I was shooting a 56" recurve. I'd shot it well enough but at times struggled.
I've not looked back.
Best regards, Skychief
What's really funny is Howard Hill said he didn't shoot recurves cause he couldn't shoot good enough to be accurate with one.
That is a funny and curious statement coming from HH.
That is interesting Terry! I've shot both and notice a slight difference in how each shoots for me but if I do my part my accuracy is the same with either. The longbows seem to fit my hand better as I like a low wrist grip. The longbows seem to have a slight vibration at release but after a shot or two I get used to it. I guess that's from the difference in mass weight of my recurve to longbow. Just something about hunting with a longbow though that keeps drawing me to them!!
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
What's really funny is Howard Hill said he didn't shoot recurves cause he couldn't shoot good enough to be accurate with one.
That is a funny and curious statement coming from HH.
I believe I heard nearly that exact same statement from Byron Ferguson years ago when he was doing a show at an Ohio Deer and Turkey expo.