Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: captain caveman on May 16, 2017, 08:38:00 AM
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If aiming techniques increase accuracy and if accuracy directly translates into success in the field then why are bow sights not more commonly used by traditional archers? Besides the obvious issues with adherence to competition rules, why not use a bow sight as a reference? It seems to be a simpler solution than string walking, allowing the string to be gripped in same place for all distances. Changing location of string grip and therefore the dynamics of the bow seems to complicate things. A sight would allow the archer to focus on the intended target with a fixed pin to spot check prior to release. I've been faithfully listening to the Push podcast and I highly recommend it. It is admittedly my only exposure to competitive archery and aiming techniques. My only question is why are sights not as widely used as these other seemingly more complicated aiming techniques in traditional archery? Any history fellow trdagangers have on the issue would be interesting as well.
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If you had asked this on other sites, you would feel the heat from the trad police. Years ago many recurves had sights-as witnessed by the many older recurves wit sight holes drilled in them. I saw few longbows fitted with sights.. as kids we taped a match to the riser as a sight. Why not? Personal preference,stubborn,trying to do it the hard way,, don't need no stinking sights, etc
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You used to see a fair amount of discussion and use of sights on traditional bows. Some were even manufactured with them. I believe that it became "fashionable" to disdain the use of sights, particularly since some of the most popular and successful archers did not use them, such as Howard Hill and Fred Bear. Oddly, while I have no issue with those who use sights, I have never had any desire to do so myself.
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Nothing against anyone that uses them but my reasoning is "simple". I switched from a compound to traditional archery because of the minimalism aspect of it. I find it extremely relaxing and a break from the "real world" to be able to just go out and shoot and have less to worry about. A sight is another thing to get nocked out of alignment, need to be adjusting or something else to cause me to "over think". I over think things way too much, but I'm getting better at avoiding it. At the same time I am becoming a better archer and enjoying traditional archery more and more.
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Most, not all, of the folks using gapping, string walking, etc. for target shooting are using fairly light weight bows. Many (not all) whose primary archery activity is hunting use heavier weight bows. Draw weight differences are probably what most distinguishes target shooting from hunting, though those difference seems to be moderating in recent times.
Regardless, the heavier the bow, the more difficult it is to hold while using any aiming system, including sights. Not impossible, just more difficult.
Mostly though, sights have just fallen out of favor. Back in the late 50s, 60s, and early 70s, we used sights quite a bit. In fact most everyone did. Then along came the compound and near demise of traditional bows. As folks began to pick up the stick again, they just eschewed sights. Maybe part of it was a reaction to the developing high tech wheelie bows.
I'm toying with the idea of putting a sight on one of my bows again. Problem now is there aren't very many of them around. Can sometimes find old ones on *****. Sights made for wheelie bows don't fit most stick bows.
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When I first got back into traditional archery, I could not get my shooting to the standard I felt was needed to hunt ethicaly. Granted jumping back in with a 75 lb recurve that I had had for over 25 years at the time was probably not a good idea but it was what I had. I put a front sight on the bow, and all of a sudden I could put the arrows where I wanted them. That first season saw a blacktail deer and a rosy cow fall to that bow. The cow was at last light at 28 yards. After that season I got rid of the sight and got a lighter bow and started learning how to really shoot with out the sight. Not really sure how many deer and elk have fallen to my trad equipment since then!
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I don't use one but if you think you might enjoy it more and it makes you a better archer with a sight do it.
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If I wanted to string walk and different walk/crawl methods, honestly, I'd just put on a simple pin sight and be done with it. It would allow me to keep my solid anchor and not worry about moving up and down the string. I much rather keep my setup and shooting style as simple as possible. I see my arrow tip in my peripheral vision, but I also do not use it as an aiming system either. Kind of a "gap-stinctive" style I guess you might could call it. It works for me. If someone wants to use a pin sight, its fine by me. Its not my bow so do what suits you and don't listen to the "trad police".
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I got into trad bows to get away from sights, stabilizers, release aids, and other things that could break, fall off, get out of tune, etc. Murphy's Law seemed to work over time with me.
Honestly it never occurred to me that I could shoot a compound "bare bow", else I would have likely just gone that route.
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I should add I'm glad it worked out the way it did!
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I agree with Chad, to get rid of all the peripheral crap. Just me and my stick. When I shoot I don't see my bow or arrow but concentrate where the arrow WILL go. My pea brain can deal with just so much at one time.
With enough thoughtful practice anyone can shoot well without sights.You don't put sights on baseballs, basket balls, foot balls or horse shoes so why on your bow?
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I have used sights and they work good in certain situations. The problem I have is that they are confining in that you are forced to hold the bow vertical. When I am hunting the situation is always different and I feel that a sight that forces me to shoot a certain way is a hindrance.
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Us old farts remember another argument that was out there in the olden days .
A bare bow shooter can get on target faster and doesn't need to worry about what the exact distance is .
Sights can get bumped and then your done until you " Sight In " again .
To look down on someone that uses sights , is just wrong and rude .
If you want to use sites , I say go for it . I certainly wouldn't think any less of a traditional archery if they did .
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Competitive shooting has different motivations than hunting. People want to compete against others who are similarly equipped. If you could get enough people interested in bending over and shooting backwards between their legs, you could start a new competitive division where people had to shoot that way. Probably there just aren't enough people who want to shoot trad bows with sights to make that happen, although Olympic style shooters use them.
Motivations for hunting are much more personal. Certainly, if sights are allowed on compounds for hunting, they would also be allowed on trad bows. If I decided to put sights on my hunting bow, the next thought in my head would be why not just go ahead and use a compound? But if a particular individual feels that he can maximize his hunting experience by putting a sight on his trad bow, I wouldn't hold it against him.
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For me, this is where the mystic and magic lies in trad archery.
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The first deer I ever killed was with a compound with no sights and fingers........that's how I shot my Browning Nomad so I didn't know any better. If you want to try a sight......go for it.
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I have a fair bit of experiance shooting with sights. I am a firm believer shooting with sights will make you a much better shot, but not from what you would expect.
Sights make you a better shot because they force you to have a VERY consistent form. You will know right away if your form is off or inconsistent, because you will not be able to hold good groups.
I eventually took the sights back off as i just liked it better without. The sights were a very humbling experience that I feel made me a better shot in the end when i went back to bare bow.
Give sights a try, what do you have to loose? SS
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For me the lack of mechanical assistance is what makes trad archery fun! No sights just my instinct against the target or animal
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I think that looking down on a guy who's using sights on a trad is wrong. In this case, whoever uses the arrow as guidance and tabs with lines marked for distances should be treated the same. Do as you please and ignore the opinions that try to push your fun out from archery. They are not used so much, or not that often because trad is associated with the way the ancestors were shooting while hunting.
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I agree with the gentleman above this post. No person should be looked down on for using sights. Especially by the guys who string walk and use a fixed crawl. It's the same thing. Using an aiming system by having your tip be the pin is the same thing in my opinion but I could care less how someone shoots. It's all about fun. I shoot instinctivey but if I were to try a fixed crawl or string walk I'd rather put a sight on.
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As a profound newbie to traditional archery (i have not even bought my bow yet!), i can really only reflect on what my preferences were when i shot with compounds.
Incidentally, when i did shoot compounds, i shot split-finger and did not use sights even though they were common (it's been more than 20 years since I shot with a bow).
I realized that i enjoyed shooting a bow strictly for the fun of it. I didn't really look to achieve stunning precision (i did that with bolt rifles - I'm still pretty OCD about that). It's not that I think accuracy with archery gear is not important, I truly believe it is - and especially so for hunting.
Rather, that i wanted a more simple experience and truly believe excellent accuracy is achievable without additional "gadgetry". I enjoy archery for the simplicity (although really complex in action) of it and additional bits-n-bobs take away from that simplicity.
However, if an archer/archery hunter wants to use a sight on a trad bow who am i to say anything against it?
If i started being that critical I hopefully would question myself... like who made me the "Traditional Archery" police?
I suppose for recreational things I tend to be a good bit more inclusive than exclusive.
I am admittedly 'eccentric' and do have some Luddite tendencies, but archery isn't among them. For some, it may be...
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from my limited experience as someone who transitioned from compound to traditional archery, many, many moon's ago, a bow sight gives false sense of ability. Though few can deny, that with a bow sight, you will be more accurate, hand down. However, you are limited with your shot's when it comes to hunting. Also, one more thing that can go wrong, as far as coming loose or broken. I have had all the things happen not only to me but other's that got into hunting with a bow sight. The other thing that I enjoy more about the lack of sight, is that I know I have to commit and practice more to become good and stay proficient. The day may come to when I will have to revert back to that. But as long as possible I will stay with the traditional way, just opens more options for hunting shots. A good example, is few years back, I come across a deer and was doing a stalk. I had to crawl to within range, it ended up the deer moved into the grass I was stalking it from. I had no option but to take a laying down shot (yes I practiced it). There is no way I could of done that with a bow sight.
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I have no qualms about using sights, on any type bow.
I've put sights on one of my recurves a time or two. I didn't like the feel either time. I think I'm so used to a "wall" to pull into with my "other" bow and metal fingers, it didn't feel right.
However, I might give a simple sight another try on my recurve. I don't care what sighting system I use as long as I'm as accurate as I can be.
When I moved to sights with my "other" bow in 1981 after shooting bare bow since 1967 or so I did it to help remind me to pick a spot. I was tired of shooting high. It worked....most of the time.
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At the relatively short distances we shoot game and 3-D targets I feel there is no need for sights. I gap everything which serves the same purpose out to 35 yards.
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I hunted with a three pin sight user when i was a kid. He always told people, "shoot through the sight, not at it." His entire shot process was 2 seconds or less. He used his sights much like Hill's Secondary image system, or as Hill put it, "imaginary aiming point". What he could not do is sit low to the ground and take long shot because of the needed bow cant his reference was too far off. Personally, I think string crawling is the silliest thing ever dreamed up for bow hunting.
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I have messed around with sights a little (pin stuck in adhesive backed foam ) I know I could improve my over 20 yard accuracy with a sight. But for hunting and shots under 20 yards I prefer no sights. I have shot several deer that I might not have got a shot off with sights.
I don't have a problem with sights, may play around with them again someday.
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When I started shooting bows and hunting EVERYBODY used a sight. Everybody shot Recurves. I have no issues if someone feels sights help and they use them. Everyone is wired a little differently. Me personally I can shoot extremely well without a site and have no need or interest. I do remember as bows got heavier in draw weight at some point it would have been very difficult to use a site had someone chosen to do so. The low bow weights popular today would be easy for most to use a site. It does seem odd there are so many methods to supposedly shoot "barebow" without a site that are in effect a sighting method - but on the flip side those who use these methods still are using a bow not dependent on using a site which for some may be a benefit.
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I once put a 3 pin sight on a martin recurve. I couldn't hit anything. My bow doesn't like for me to hold it vertically, or maybe visa-versa. Also, I can shoot darn good groups with my "other" bow with wheels and cables and stabilizer and release and string loop and let off AND sights, but I have a hard time when I don't use my rangefinder. I love my traditional bows and even more so without a sight because I don't need to know the range, within reason of course.
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I am fairly new to the traditional archery scene but the reason I came over from compound is the challenge as well as the simplistic approach. Sights make it easier but is that what you want with traditional? Again, I'm no authority and I couldn't care less what anyone else does as long as they are enjoying the outdoors. That's just my thoughts on the subject.
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Well. In an attempt at answering his question, more folks (on this site) don't use sights simply because, for whatever their reason, they don't want to. That's all.
Go to a site dealing with olympic target shooters and most will be using sights.
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Originally posted by Pat B:
Just me and my stick. When I shoot I don't see my bow or arrow but concentrate where the arrow WILL go. My pea brain can deal with just so much at one time.
With enough thoughtful practice anyone can shoot well without sights.You don't put sights on baseballs, basket balls, foot balls or horse shoes so why on your bow?
Great response Pat, you nailed it! :thumbsup:
Tracy
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To each their own. I never had interest because it's one more thing to buy/break/lose. I'd also have to buy the inserts to mount them on my bows. Since I'm shooting the arrow anyway, aiming with it just makes more sense to me.
I don't get the animosity towards other aiming styles.
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I think you see very few sights on trad bows today because: (1) Very few trad shooters have ever tried using a sight, (2) Longbows have increased in popularity and most of them have risers that are not very amenable for using a sight, and (3) Most people don't want to be ridiculed by the trad police for not being "trad enough." That said, I see a lot of people at trad shoots that would likely benefit from trying a sight.
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Funny thing, I switched from traditional equipment for target practice only, to a compound when I began archery hunting for deer 33 years ago. I thought the sight pin was so cool until i discovered I was looking past it when the light got low. I added a small light and battled with sight picture "washout" or an even poorer view of the deer due to the glow. Then came fiber optics. Better, but twigs can snag and breakfibers. Before I knew it I was into $150+ sights with protected fibers, bubble levels, canted pins.......you get the picture. Shooting barebow and instinctive is a HUGE breath of fresh air. love it.
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Totally agree great points. With the inability to cant a sighted bow and difficulty at higher draw weights that pretty much settles the issue for me. I don't have inserts on any of my bows so not an option anyway. At the ranges I shoot at game it's not an issue either. But if in a tree stand with a 30 yrd shot and more time to prepare and hold bow vertical would be a confidence booster.
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One other thing that i have observed all several occasions. I have seen three times where good shooters try a bow sight to improve their shooting and shot much much worse with a bow sight than with their normal bare bow shooting. some folks do little tweaks to get their instinctively shot arrows on the mark. Aiming with a sight robs them of their little tweaks.
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For me it's just something else to go wrong with or break. I've had many times 30-35+ years ago, where I'd be all set up On stand then realize that my sight pin had either moved bent or broke. I like things as simple as possible.
I think I shoot ok with out them
(http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee393/seanb45/2F6F1491-5A84-4265-B06A-8E7B1919D6EE_zpseejb3pat.jpg) (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/seanb45/media/2F6F1491-5A84-4265-B06A-8E7B1919D6EE_zpseejb3pat.jpg.html)
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No doubt looks good. Correct me I if I'm wrong but it sounds like Byron Ferguson uses some awareness of the arrow for windage and shoots elevation purely instinctive. Seems like a good idea since horizontal errors will have more impact than vertical errors judging distance when it comes to success in the field. I'd much rather miss clean above or below than hit too far forward or back on something with a heartbeat.
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Originally posted by captain caveman:
No doubt looks good. Correct me I if I'm wrong but it sounds like Byron Ferguson uses some awareness of the arrow for windage and shoots elevation purely instinctive. Seems like a good idea since horizontal errors will have more impact than vertical errors judging distance when it comes to success in the field. I'd much rather miss clean above or below than hit too far forward or back on something with a heartbeat.
I'm not sure how he shoots but I'm a gap shoroter. I don't care what "traditionalists" think of it. But it works for me and has for 27 years. Nothing wrong with it. As I said for me it's an unneeded piece of equipment that has the potential to fail at the wrong time. And to me, there's nothing wrong if someone wants to use them.
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I started using sights on my recurve back in the 60's. They enabled me to develop good form and accuracy, but after a few years I found I no longer needed them for normal hunting distances. They actually became a hindrance for that. Always worried about the bow being vertical, and we'd even step off yardage from our tree stand and flag distances so we'd get the right pin.
If I was shooting Olympic style targets I would not hesitate to switch back, but for what I enjoy, I just don't need them.
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I'm a relatively young guy at 32 years old, and I started out with a compound in high school. About 5 years or so back, I decided to give trad a try. My initial reasons were mainly for more of a challenge and bragging rights, though I was also drawn to the history aspect being a bit of an old soul compared to most guys my age. The reason I have stuck with trad is the simplicity of it. I just find the simplicity of shooting a bare bow to be more enjoyable, and sights take away from that simplicity.
Having said that, I've come to like vintage bows more than modern custom bows, and I've seen quite a few vintage bows for sale with vintage sights on them. If I was ever to buy one with vintage 1960s sights already on it, I'd probably shoot it and hunt with it that way.