Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: BWallace10327 on April 20, 2017, 10:54:00 PM
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Are other archers generally happy with, and while, they shoot? As of lately, I am not. Arrows that find their mark don't seem to bring the satisfaction they once did because they were propelled by a fluid motion that is fast and largely unstoppable.
I'm getting a tad frustrated and the fun of shooting my recurve is turning to a chore-like I need more work to do in my yard. :banghead: I don't believe I can stop snap shooting for anything, but I am looking for a way to get the fun back into this. I don't always shoot the worst, but I never control my shot as well as I would like.
A wheeled contraption even was drug out of an 8 year storage bid and shooting it was more fun. Any suggestions for a wayward Tradganger? :campfire:
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No advice, but after an injury last summer, I am going thru some of the same, and don't like it at all!!!!!
Bisch
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PM KSdan and ask him about the book he was reading about controlling the shot. I don't remember the name. It dealt with target panic, etc.
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Draw, don't shoot, let down
Repeat, repeat, repeat..................
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I would suggest taking Joel Turner's online course or in person instruction. I haven't heard a single bad word about his instruction, only praise. Or maybe take a Rick Welch class. He also promoted holding at full draw (two seconds, I believe). These are not cheap fixes, but I really think either will help you control your shot process.
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Try shooting some different targets. Swinging tennis balls on a rope are lots of fun. Try and shoot out a candle, etc. It's fun.
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I would consider dropping way down in draw weight so you can focus solely on form. I agree with the Rick Welch suggestion. It is a fun experience and you would leave with a lot of confidence.
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You know, Brent, I've been where you are many times. In fact, I almost quit shooting trad several times out of frustration. Being unable to consistently hit your target, or working through form issues, can be so frustrating. Once you find a way to improve the issues which are causing you to lose the joy of shooting, your outlook will improve. I takes a lot of work. One fun thing to do might be to shoot some 3-d's with friends, but don't keep score. Just have fun and wherever the arrows fly, so be it.
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Without my clicker I do the same thing. Try one.
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Shooting blind will cure that .
It's done by standing close , less than 10 yards .
You concentrate on the spot you want to hit , close your eyes , bring your bow up , draw and hold for a three count . Now just let the string slip off your fingers .
This way of shooting takes the visual part of your shot sequence out so your brain isn't triggered by what you see .
If you miss completely , no big deal , just change your stance , left or right , which ever way you need to go .
You will be amazed at how this can adjust your form and it starts being fun .
Also , it's very neat when you start connecting .
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On several occasions I have taken a break due to frustration. I have been lucky in that improper snap shooting has never been a long term issue. I overcame a mild tendency by reaching anchor and counting out loud to two before letting go. That's all it took to fix the snap draw problem, but I did get some funny looks from other archers. My real frustration, though, is my tendency to pluck the string. Still working on that one.
Relax and maybe go fishing for a while. The urge to shoot the bow will return on its own schedule. Good luck.
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My joy comes from a properly executed shot (mostly follow-through) with the target strike 2nd. The last thing on my mind, when I'm right-minded, is allowing both hands to follow through.
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Friend of mine wanted to get into bowhunting for deer and give up the shotgun deer chasing. I gave him a Hill an old shooting glove and some arrows, he bought a used back quiver. He does not have internet, his only teacher was watching Hill and Schulz on vcr tapes that I borrowed him. That one second fluid tempo that Hill shoots with, is how he shoots, so do I most of the time. Some would call it TP, some would call it snap shooting. When he was accused of snap shooting by a local genius and was challenged to aim for four seconds, he simply said, "I ain't ever gonna shoot a deer like that, stuff like that will mess up my form." He pays me for arrows now, he is the only person I know that only has blunts and broadheads, he has no use for target points.
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I was where you were too. I just couldn't snap shoot consistently. Hats off to the people that can.
I just slowed down everything I did and now I'm always in the top two in my clubs archery 3D shoots. It did take me a long time and my form is no way near perfect but I keep striving to get better and better form. I really envy the guys on here that have such great form.
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Holding for a second or two at full draw is a good compromise to short-drawing, snap shooting (instantly releasing at full draw), or holding-holding-holding until the cows-cows-cows come home. The latter is particularly troublesome because it can promote shoulder, neck and joint problems later (like after you aren't young), especially with anything other than a light target bow.
Everything in moderation.
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Go get a soccer ball and some tennis balls and have fun roving with them on the ground in your back yard. Forget shooting a target for a while.
I'd slow down and make shooting more enjoyable for you by trying swinging targets and moving targets.
If I get frustrated shooting targets (like paper) I'll just grab some soccer balls and shoot them moving around all around the yard without stressing out about misses because a soccer ball and tennis ball are already pretty small targets so you should nto get stressed if you miss them.
Regarding snap shooting, I would not give it up. I switched from a holding at full draw style (which did not work that well for me) to what I like to call "fluid shooting" which just means I do not hold at full draw and my accuracy, comfort while shooting, and the amount of fun I have while shooting has gone up.
Holding bows that weight 40#+ at full draw for even a second or two is no fun especially on your joints. Releasing through anchor is much much easier on your body and much more fun than having to fight the weight of the bow.
This point will be highly controversial but do you GAP, shoot point of aim, or shoot instinctive? In my opinion if you shoot instinctive there is no point in holding at full draw.
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X2 on the clicker.
X2 on Joel Turner.
If that doesn't work, just pick up a rifle for a while. Different body mechanics. Same psychology. Still fun. Fun is the point, right?
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Don't think, just shoot. I know that's easier said than done. If I feel like I'm starting to get in a "funk" I try to do something fun with shooting, and try to forget about hitting my "spot" on the target. I have used balloons either taped to targets or hung from tree branches to shoot at. I also made a small little target course on my little 3 acres. I used old tarps that had holes in them and stuffed them into feed bags for targets, and ended up with 6 targets to shoot at, and challenged my two daughters to a contest....we wont talk about the results of this!!!! :biglaugh: In past years before my best buddy moved to a different state, we would get a group of guys together at his place and have shooting contests at foam disks thrown into the air, using flu flu's...we ended up shooting at a chew can wrapped with black electricians tape. His place also had the perfect sand bank we could set a target up in and shoot from long range, (60-80yards), just to see who could come closest to the target. Sometimes one of us would actually hit it!!! All this being said, I think anything you can do to mix up your shooting and make it fun again, will help. Good luck, and don't give up.
Jason
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I feel your pain. I struggled for the last year with trying to control my shot. I have made a lot of progress and have it pretty much under control now. I am working on gettiny the shot sequence ingrained. I shoot only 1 arrow at a time working on the mechanics of the shot. I am now ready to go back to shooting at a spot I have been shooting recurves and longbows since the early 1960's. I am striving to get back into shooting as well as I did before my problem developed a year ago. Get back to enjoying the shot.
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Originally posted by BWallace10327:
Are other archers generally happy with, and while, they shoot? As of lately, I am not. Arrows that find their mark don't seem to bring the satisfaction they once did because they were propelled by a fluid motion that is fast and largely unstoppable.
I'm getting a tad frustrated and the fun of shooting my recurve is turning to a chore-like I need more work to do in my yard. :banghead: I don't believe I can stop snap shooting for anything, but I am looking for a way to get the fun back into this. I don't always shoot the worst, but I never control my shot as well as I would like. "Aim small, shoot tight" will make more sense than you think.
A wheeled contraption even was drug out of an 8 year storage bid and shooting it was more fun. Any suggestions for a wayward Tradganger? :campfire:
If you linger for fun and have more than 1 bow, shoot each time a different bow. If they are different poundages even better. And get rid of big target bags, go for smallest possible. I bought the smallest yellow jacket on the market (12" height and 8" wide) - it is for crossbow but works for recurves too. At 10m is easy but at 20m becomes challenging just to hit it. "Aim small, miss small" will start to make sense, and a small target close to the killing zone size will bring the fun again. The moment you shoot for the target itself, you will miss it. The moment you try to hit the bee, you will hit it - don't ask me how I know it.
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My target is a four by four cube. I just shot 330 arrows at stuff blowing in the wind in front of it, taped to a fishing line. I am a flying dandelion killer. I knew that stupid crappie rod would come in handy sooner or later.
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Had the same issue that I still fight. It got so bad that I could not draw a bow more than half way without a release. It took all the joy out of it and I put the bow up for many years. I have been working on it now for a few years and it is much better! I dropped to 44@30 which helped a LOT!
Now...some days are really great and enjoyable....some not so. If, on a bad day I can't get things under control in short order, I put the bow up so as to not ingrain bad stuff. I can pretty well hold at full draw now as long as I want.
At one time I was a VERY confident stick bow shooter. Now...I keep any game shots to 15 and under. I still enjoy it even though my wife beats the pants off me most days when we shoot.
Keep at it...it can be beat.
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I'm a hunter not a shooter, have always released as soon as the arrow hits my anchor. If that's snap shooting then so be it but it's how I shoot it works and there's no reason for me to change a thing after 35+ years shooting trad. Some of the best shooters ever to walk this earth shot and shoot the same way.
The longer I hold or try to control the shot the less accurate I get and the less fun I have shooting. I see so many guys on here trying to make so many changes just because the read about somebody else doing it that way. Or the see a video on TV or YouTube or something, just shoot the bow!!!
Your way!!! Not at a target either go out and shoot frogs or fish or leaves or tennis balls anything but standing in front of your target like a statue and overthinking ever shot before it ever happens. Don't worry about Howmuch your arrow weights, how much your pulling, if your arrow is flying perfect just shoot the bow at something fun and forget about the rest.
To many guys take the fun out of this sport/game we play worried about all the little things. It's not hard keep it simple and enjoy, I hope you can if not take a break it's that simple.
Life's to short to worry about the little things, It will all work out in time :thumbsup:
Tracy
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Originally posted by K.S.TRAPPER:
I'm a hunter not a shooter, have always released as soon as the arrow hits my anchor. If that's snap shooting then so be it but it's how I shoot it works and there's no reason for me to change a thing after 35+ years shooting trad. Some of the best shooters ever to walk this earth shot and shoot the same way.
The longer I hold or try to control the shot the less accurate I get and the less fun I have shooting. I see so many guys on here trying to make so many changes just because the read about somebody else doing it that way. Or the see a video on TV or YouTube or something, just shoot the bow!!!
Your way!!! Not at a target either go out and shoot frogs or fish or leaves or tennis balls anything but standing in front of your target like a statue and overthinking ever shot before it ever happens. Don't worry about Howmuch your arrow weights, how much your pulling, if your arrow is flying perfect just shoot the bow at something fun and forget about the rest.
To many guys take the fun out of this sport/game we play worried about all the little things. It's not hard keep it simple and enjoy, I hope you can if not take a break it's that simple.
Life's to short to worry about the little things, It will all work out in time :thumbsup:
Tracy
I agree with you 100% Tracy.
I see a lot of threads where people are buying clickers, talking about rotating their bow arm into place, knuckles off the bow at an angle, lowering their bow shoulder, back tension, using three or more reference points, and over complicating the hell out of shooting a stickbow.
It's no wonder a lot of people have shooting issues when you are worried about a million things!
If I knew some of these people I would just give them a prescription of stumping for a whole month and chances are their problems or concerns would disappear. :)
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I shoot best with just a hard anchor and stretch through it release, snap shooting with purpose. My secret for controlling it, is all about what is in my head to help keep me clear and focused. Okay, so the guys prefer riding my car on the way hunting, it is fast, quiet and it has the best stereo for playing huntin' music. If I have right huntin' music in my head, I do fine. This is one of the favorites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot3g41rHFqU
Seriously, music therapy, it can make a difference. My Daughter is a specialist for kids with learning problems. If you tend to get wound up when you have a bow in hand, perhaps something like this would be better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxgmorK61YQ
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The issues arise when one "worries" about the target.
I'm a proponent of proper shooting form for the sake of consistent accuracy and physical health. That said:
We don't hear much about this but one of things that affects ones shot more than anything is attitude, mental-makeup, approach to things, etc. Some of us fret, have wandering minds, have laser mental focus, are too self-critical, etc.
I've seen young people shoot lights out with seemingly effortless ease who are happy go lucky, joke around, and don't seem to care...but they do. I've seen young people (and adults) who are what I call "accountant types" who can block out everyone and everything around them who shoot fantastic (a multiple Olympic medalist from 40 years ago comes to mind). It's the person who shoots a wayward arrow and then chastises themselves, kicks the dirt, looks around for "help" that seems to only get increasingly poorer results.
I remember watching video of the Rio Olympic archery event. Notice some of the shooters and the flow of their shot. It was uncanny but you could see when a particular archer took a fraction longer to release than was their norm, their shot was well out of the bull. I'm betting those folks were aiming, then moved on to the end of their shot but wrongly returned to rethink aiming before they released.
I'd bet that even the most form conscious (I tend to be one of these) can remember times when a shot (especially on game) has been taken and they can barely remember anything about the shot. They just went on auto-pilot and next thing you know the animal is tagged. In fact, it seems most of my hunting shots have been like that.
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I guess we've all been there but this thread really shows how different we all are.
The "fun shooting", "just stump shooting", "just shoot and have fun" or whatever you'd call it doesn't work for me.
Oh, I might make some nice shots that way but the engineer in me has to understand why it worked and know that I have the control over it to repeat it at will.
The only way I can get through a shooting slump (or any other problem) is to solve it. Most people (some of us anyway) have to work hard to do a thing well.
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No advice here
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I do not snap shoot if I did I would miss everytime. I come to full draw hold for around 2 to 4 seconds then release. I too go through time where my shooting isn't what I think it should be but when you are competing with the wheels on a friends bow one can get to critical on ones self.
The one practice I use is stump shooting and finding holes in the bushes or some type of obstacle to shoot around which those wheelie bow do not do so good, by doing this I improve and bring the confidence back.
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Snap shooting sure wasn't much fun for me either. Wasn't very good (even after three years of daily practice) and then couldn't STOP snapping. Only animal I ever made a good snap-shot on was at nine feet. Could have speared her. Lots of misses though. A lot. If holding wasn't good for hunting compounders wouldn't be kill anything either...
I started holding with Rick Welch's video. After that a lighter draw weight and Joel Turner's methods really brought the fun back and really improved my shooting. Like MGF, if I can do something well once I want to figure out how so I can do it over and over.
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The range of answers on here shows how trad archery can appeal to a wide variety of personality types. I was about to post that trad archery primarily appeals to "process" oriented people, who value the process of executing a perfect shot more than the result of hitting anything, but that's just because I am that type. When Rod Jenkins decides that there really should be another step in between step 7 and step 8 in the shot sequence, I think, "That's exactly right! Why didn't anyone think of that before?" I'm sure I'll feel the same way when he gets up to step number 25.
Other people who have just as much fun as I do just go out and shoot the dang thing, have no idea what their shot process is, and could care less about it.
But getting back to the original post, as it says in Ecclesiastes, there's a time for everything. Maybe your time to shoot the bow has moved on, for now. But like a time to reap, and the seasons, it may return again. Go with your natural rhythms. It's not at all unusual on TradGang to hear from someone who is returning to archery after an extended absence, sometimes more enthusiastic than they were the first time around.
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I know exactly what my shot process is and how it all works, I don't need some one else to tell me my system is wrong and how it should be done and his way is the only way. My only competition is myself and I challenge myself in ever aspect of this sport and the animals I hunt to be the best shot I can be always.
I can split nocks and tear feathers from my wood arrows on my good days shooting at targets but I really like my arrows and hate ruining them like that. Snap shooting has always and will continue to work for the simple minded shooters who are just fine shooting this way and the many, many fine animals I kill year after year sure don't seem to mind. Yep, it's fun to just pick up the bow and shoot it and not worry about all the crap.
Tracy
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I think for most of us who have faced or continue to face Target Panic what's frustrating is not being abled to "control the shot".
To this point the only help i've come to realize has been what I learned from Joel Turner giving out his phone # to give free advice on what could, and has helped me.
He now offers a Online course or in person seminars (with groups of shooters).
Some people this would not interest (as their happy with their shooting and most likely in control), but for those of us who need help, help is available.
He has several Youtube's online now, look for "Iron mind Hunting".
His approach is sound and will help you if you want help.
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Practicing this evening, and in control of the shot process...
14 yards...
Dragonfly landed on my Alligator target, and thought why not...
Set up the shot and then started to tell myself to Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling, Bam!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4174/34052164852_163706b159.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/TT5ffy) IMG_2253 (https://flic.kr/p/TT5ffy)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2886/33398777953_bdc78f1da6.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/STkt6c) IMG_2257 (https://flic.kr/p/STkt6c)
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Oh and yes the fun was back...
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I was right with you about a month ago. A clicker has brought the satisfaction back and improved my shooting immensely.
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Originally posted by K.S.TRAPPER:
I know exactly what my shot process is and how it all works, I don't need some one else to tell me my system is wrong and how it should be done and his way is the only way. My only competition is myself and I challenge myself in ever aspect of this sport and the animals I hunt to be the best shot I can be always.
I can split nocks and tear feathers from my wood arrows on my good days shooting at targets but I really like my arrows and hate ruining them like that. Snap shooting has always and will continue to work for the simple minded shooters who are just fine shooting this way and the many, many fine animals I kill year after year sure don't seem to mind. Yep, it's fun to just pick up the bow and shoot it and not worry about all the crap.
Tracy
I may have missed something? Don't think anyone told you you needed to change?
The OP can't snap shoot well. A lot of us can't. That's our struggle, not yours. You have a system that works for you, which is great. Not everyone else does yet, that's all.
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Originally posted by KeganM:
I may have missed something? Don't think anyone told you you needed to change?
The OP can't snap shoot well. A lot of us can't. That's our struggle, not yours. You have a system that works for you, which is great. Not everyone else does yet, that's all.
From what I read, the real problem is not necessary that. He lost the fun even from the good shoots and the re-introduction of the compound in the mix made the shooting enjoyable. For me this gentleman has no problem with the sequence of the shooting, with the push and pull, with the drawing weight or anything traditional bow related that all the people here are thinking. He is in that moment of the life when even the most beautiful woman is boring for a man because she is no more New. He has 2 options: change the type of bow all together or let it go.
PS I see the addition of a clicker as a novelty in the "couple", not as a way to make him better.
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I think some of us keyed in on this from the OP
"I don't always shoot the worst, but I never control my shot as well as I would like.
A wheeled contraption even was drug out of an 8 year storage bid and shooting it was more fun. "
That makes it sound like the lack of control is the frustration.
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Originally posted by mgf:
I think some of us keyed in on this from the OP
"I don't always shoot the worst, but I never control my shot as well as I would like.
A wheeled contraption even was drug out of an 8 year storage bid and shooting it was more fun. "
That makes it sound like the lack of control is the frustration.
Whatever line is good as long it supports each one's theory.
This one says other story:
"Arrows that find their mark don't seem to bring the satisfaction they once did"
But is not about who is right here. Even though, when it comes to fun, most of you send him to the doctor. How about giving challenges that will force to find a treatment by himself? We live in a society that promotes treatment for anything, but ... for fun? This is weird.
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As someone struggling myself I find that to get the "fun" back, or keep it, I can't be shooting at bales or 3d targets all the time.
I need to go roving and do "stupid shots". My patented stupid shots are just that, too far, too tough, too stupid ( but safe.. that is important), but I'm gonna try it anyway. You'd be surprised how often you get " dead deer" close to that target after doing this a while. Although I love to actually hit the target, I consider a "dead deer" close arrow as a success.
I'm not gonna tell you how to shoot... you know how.
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Every pointer in this thread has found its mark and is well received.
I've spend some time inventorying what is fun about this traditional archery business and what exactly causes me distress when I shoot. It is easy to accuse people of over-thinking shooting, but those that say that are not me; I am the analytical type and can't hardly help it. Likewise, I shoot quickly, snap shoot if you will and can't hardly help that either. My expectations are unrealistic, as I can't jump horses at, lets say 35 yards and become a gap shooter. Attempting to shoot differently causes distress and it would be best to avoid that all together. I snap shoot and that is the way it is and getting bent out of shape about that is analogous to being upset for not being 6" taller.
As for the fun and where did it go? Well, there was a pile of it on my string making jig and an unopened tube of it next to my tube of fletchtite platinum in my arrow making drawer. In fact, fan was scattered all over the place, although it was not on the X ring of a vegas face.
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Draven, I don't know, can't speak for the OP. Maybe he does just want a new toy?
I've gone through a spell where my shooting was uncontrolled. It's the worst feeling and I wouldn't wish that upon anyone. Got through it though, as have others. If these changes (which are all a lot cheaper than a new bow) have worked for us, and can help bring that fun back for him, why dismiss them? Mr. Joel Turner has been busy for a reason.
I don't see why we have to all shoot the same way, either. Some snap, some hold, some do both. As long as you're happy with your shooting who cares?
As MGF said, it really didn't sound like BWallace was just looking for a new bow. It's normal, some of us are just wired differently.
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Whoops, posted at the same time, BWallace.
Glad you're having fun with it. If you're trying something different, check out Joel's stuff. He's a good guy who just wants to help.
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I don't want a new bow that's something more to learn about. New targets don't hurt though.
(http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag239/loader2008/100_1528_zpsygrwipc5.jpg) (http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/loader2008/media/100_1528_zpsygrwipc5.jpg.html)
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Great shooting Brent!
And I to took your post as some venting on controlled shooting or lack there of.
I'm there with you. Somedays a backyard Champion, and when around others and game can't hit the broad side of a barn much less get to full draw and hold for the shot picture to settle in.
Frustrating to say the least, but don't give in their is help.
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Originally posted by Graps:
Shooting blind will cure that .
It's done by standing close , less than 10 yards .
You concentrate on the spot you want to hit , close your eyes , bring your bow up , draw and hold for a three count . Now just let the string slip off your fingers .
This way of shooting takes the visual part of your shot sequence out so your brain isn't triggered by what you see .
If you miss completely , no big deal , just change your stance , left or right , which ever way you need to go .
You will be amazed at how this can adjust your form and it starts being fun .
Also , it's very neat when you start connecting .
I like graps idea. I had planned to start doing this today as I find myself not letting the string slip from my fingers. It's a forced release and it shows at the target.
When I just relax my the lower finger I am very accurate.....and the bow pulls the string out my hand
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Nice shooting Brent!!! I hope by adding new those new targets it has helped bring the fun back into shooting for you.
Jason
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I bought a Clickety Clicker to solve my target panic/snap shooting problem. (Do not read as "Snap shooting is bad.") I snap shoot and short draw due to target panic, therefore it is bad for me.
I don't release the arrow until the clicker tells me to do so. It won't click until I pull and push through my anchor point.
I did this to align to Joel Turner's philosophy of having an external cue to shoot. I went from releasing the shot uncontrollably to having complete control immediately.
Whether or not you try it, good luck sir!
Not having control of my shot took all the fun out of it. I got to the point where I was seriously considering going to compounds despite my unfailing appreciation for traditional archery.
I hope you get it all worked out.
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Try a clicker
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This sus up what's going on for me. I always wanted to get an A&h longbow, so I whent oit and got one. On odd days I shoot decent and even days not....or is it the other way around...lol
I've been trying yo hold at full draw also, think I'll go back to my old way. I hit anchor and release. Not very fun when you don't know if it's a odd or even day
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I suppose that is the question stemming from what realistic expectations are. I too have those odd/even days and have come to the conclusion that X number of years shooting Y number of arrows from a traditional bow doesn't equate to a given degree of accuracy or consistency. Some people have the nack for it, they are either very coordinated or very disciplined in their shooting and it comes quickly.
In my instance, and I know that I'm not alone, I am persistent and dense and like to watch an arrow fly. With that being the case, I may not be much, if any better of a shot in another 10 years than I am now but I'll have kept sight of what really draws me to traditional archery.
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Every so often I need to break down my shot into specific segments, stance initial draw, on target or secondary coming off the crown, smooth in the straight draw final inches, solid repeatable anchor, tighten up, release, steady follow through. Like a local cop trad shooter says, "If it was easy, you wouldn't be doing it." I guess I am addicted to challenges.