Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: STICKBENDER98 on March 26, 2017, 05:43:00 PM
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I recently bought a test kit from Surewood Shafts, and have them dipped crested and fletched, and finally had some ok weather to shoot a little bit. I called and talked with Steve and ordered a dozen and a half shafts starting at 40-45 spine and ending with 65-70 spine. I had the 60-65 and 65-70 spines back tapered from 11/32 to 5/16, all the rest are 11/32. I shot five different bows tonight, my two Northern Mist 51# @28" and 52# @ 28", my Black Widow recurve, 51# @ 28", Hill Country Wildcat 41# @ 29" and my JavaMan Elkheart 41# @ 28". All of them seemed to shoot the 60-65 spine the best. I fletched them with 3-5", these were the only ones I didn't notice any "kick" up, down or left, right. Just curious if anyone else has come across this, I was very surprised with the light weight bows shooting so well with the heavy spine weight. These shafts came in with a 670-680 total grain weight, which also surprised me with how well the light weight bows shot them.
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When you go up un in physical weight, you also need to increase spine. That's why they shoot well out of your lighter weight bows.
But, to answer your question, Yes, I do find wood arrows a bit more forgiving of spine mismatch and shooting flaws than carbons. Been shooting them close to 60 years now, carbons only the past 10 years.
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What field tip weight are you running with this shafts?
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I'm shooting 125 grains with 100 grain woody weights on all my test kit arrows. I have been shooting this same weight on my carbons and aluminums too.
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That much weight up front is why they're liking heavy spines.
And yes, I do find wood arrows more forgivin than carbons.
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It sure seems like it to me, too.
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I have wood arrows that will shoot well out of five of my bows of different weights, and a set of carbons that only fly right out of one of those bows. I tried lots of point variations on those carbons but they insist on being right for just the one bow. i have tried different point weights on the woodies as well, they have at least a tem pound draw weight forgiveness. Why people cannot get wood arrows to fly right is sometimes a mystery, considering the quaility of shafts that are coming from Surewood and Wapiti these days.
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I also have trouble shooting one size carbon or aluminum out of multiple bows.when I make woodies they shoot gracefully out of more than a few with the same spine.
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I have two recurves, two R/D longbows, and a hybrid that all shoot the same cedar arrows. The bows range from 42-47#, the arrows are 45-50# spine.
I need two different alum sizes to shoot well from those same bows.
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Yes in my opinion both aluminum and wood or more forgiving of spine errors than carbon
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With wood arrows it is easier for to set using bop net, I use the back of the head as a draw check. I have also found that Hill style bows of modest length allow for some draw length tolerance as well. Combined, the two tolerances allow for a straight flying shaft that still keep the arrow behind the head. My one set of carbons are also bop net, tapered from Alaska, they are not as tolerant of short draws with 200 or less grains up front, but when I went to 190 grain heads on the long ferrule they told be that they didn't like anything hotter than my standard shot. Like I said, from the one bow they are darts, albeit, heavy darts.
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When I make a poor release I see it off center more with wood than I do with carbon . So for me I would say carbons are more forgiving but I still like shooting woods more .
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Yes, I find wood to be very easy to tune and more forgiving than anything else I have shot. It is beyond me how people have a problem with wood.
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This definitely has me thinking, I started shooting POC, roughly 20 years ago and made the circle to aluminum, and carbons, and now back to wood. Really like the thoughts of being able to use one shaft the same length and same point weight up front on all my bows and not have to worry about anything, other than if I'm doing my part with my release and follow through.
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For me and my shooting, woods are more forgiving in some areas, and less forgiving in other areas. No one arrow material is perfect in every aspect, but they are all certainly good. I love lots about the wood arrows, but there are some things about them I could do without. I can say the same for every material type. Your definition of forgiving, could mean something different to another person. All in all, I think there are things about each, that levels things up.
My lightweight bows shoot heavy woods,heavy aluminums, or heavy carbons very well.
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When I make arrows for my friends, I need to stay on their case about their draw lengths, but I have a tough time guessing spines when they want arrows full length. Every bow reacts to extra arrow length differently, it can really show up with wood arrows. With net arrows they seem to stay with a softer release and an extra hot release. With full length and the spine selected to match the extra length, a soft release shows a loggy arrow flight more, while a jerked release can get the arrow going places more with full length arrows and 28 or under draws. It seems like a wood arrow likes to have something to fly around, or perhaps more precise, something to leverage against to get its spring action going. One Hill shooter here likes carbons, but his arrows skip of the bow when he gets a soft release, which is about every time he shoots at a deer from a tree stand. He gets good flight on level ground at targets and says he hears the hit and sees the reaction when he shoots at deer. A common ailment, to shoot a little weak when shooting down from a tree stand.
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When I make arrows for my friends, I need to stay on their case about their draw lengths, but I have a tough time guessing spines when they want arrows full length. Every bow reacts to extra arrow length differently, it can really show up with wood arrows. With net arrows they seem to stay with a softer release and an extra hot release. With full length and the spine selected to match the extra length, a soft release shows a loggy arrow flight more, while a jerked release can get the arrow going places more with full length arrows and 28 or under draws. It seems like a wood arrow likes to have something to fly around, or perhaps more precise, something to leverage against to get its spring action going. One Hill shooter here likes carbons, but his arrows skip off the bow when he gets a soft release, which is about every time he shoots at a deer from a tree stand. He gets good flight on level ground at targets and says he hears the hit and sees the reaction when he shoots at deer. A common ailment, to shoot a little weak when shooting down from a tree stand.
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Not to the animal! :knothead:
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Yeah, they'll forgive you for shooting those carbons and welcome you back...
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I'd be interested in knowing what makes wooden arrows more forgiving over carbon or aluminum arrows.
Maybe the fact that it goes through more paradox has something to do with it? I have noticed that aluminum arrows are more forgiving than carbon arrows and it could be because they like to bend more in paradox.
Carbon arrows are finicky in that they do not like going through paradox (are more resistant to it).
As an example I have a set of .500 spine carbons and out of my 50# glass longbow with a 300 grain point they show a near identical amount of stiffness compared to the same arrow with a 125 grain point.
I had to drop down to .670 spine with 145 grain points to get them to fly correctly whereas that same .670 shaft would probably show up quite weak if it were aluminum.
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It's been fun working with wood again, playing with different stains, and finishing them up with cap dips and cresting them. I did each spine weight a different cap dip and fletch so I know what I'm shooting when I grab them. It's nice to know that when I get settled on a specific spine weight it wont matter what bow I grab, I will be able to shoot the same arrow set up out of it. I was very surprised with the straightness of the Surewood Shafts, very little if any initial straightening required.
Jason
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Threads like this make me spend money...
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That is true by my experience also Jason.
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Originally posted by Sawpilot 75:
Yes, I find wood to be very easy to tune and more forgiving than anything else I have shot. It is beyond me how people have a problem with wood.
Exactly! :thumbsup:
Tracy
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Not for me. I tried multiple types and woods, everything from home made to professionally matched and weighed. They're never as forgiving or consistent as my carbons, even the best ones that cost more than a set of fancy carbons. If they were that's what I'd be using, but alas, no luck.
I'd like to like woods... but they don't like me back.
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I think it's because you can get a wood arrow that is within 5 pounds of your actual draw weight. With the small choice of spine weights with carbon arrows it is necessary to add weight to the point to get them to flex enough to shoot well. I think that makes carbons more sensitive to shooting flaws than wood arrows. Just my opinion.
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I can't tell any difference in arrow material in a well tuned arrow.
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Kegan, I have had a few guys say the same as you, but were curious about wood arrows. I gave none of them free arrows. I think that is why they showed up. I do go out back with them and see what's up. In every case, at least so far, they lay down a bunch of barriers about how things get done. Very often they are not shooting like they say they are, then when they resist any input, I give up and send them on their way. We hear how Hill style bows are a perfect fit for wood arrows. I believe it is much more that Hill style shooting likes wood arrows. I have seen slow mo stuff where a carbon arrow can have numerous segment bends. The one that college kids did, showed that wood arrows have a more singular long bend initially that smoothly melds into the 's' as it goes around the bow and transforms into a smooth opposite bend, without doing any extra kinking. That was done with longbows and recurves that not negative of centers, like some bows are these days.
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I just love wood, the grain looks so good just like a beautiful wood bow. Haven' t seen many beautiful carbon bows or arrows.
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Exactly Kennym. Often because we fall short of proper tuning we want to blame the bow or the arrow material.
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Pavan, perhaps some day when I have more time I'll revisit woods but I just don't have the time or money these days. I've worked very hard to get my shooting to the level it is today and still want to go further, so I'm not comfortable changing how I shoot just to use them, especially when a good set costs more than my carbons. I shot Hill style for years... I'm no good at it.
I've found what works for me. If I have to change my shooting just to use them, then they're not very forgiving. Competed with them at trad world's a few years ago and the other LB shooters said the same. It wasn't the bow that made that class tough, it was the wooden arrows.
I shot them for years out of my selfbows and imagine I'll always have a soft spot for them. However at this time in my life I don't have the time to really devote to them. Meanwhile my inexpensive Bemans have proven to be well suited to all the shooting I do and last for quite some time with very little maintenance. Different tools for different jobs I guess.
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Originally posted by snag:
Exactly Kennym. Often because we fall short of proper tuning we want to blame the bow or the arrow material.
I always blame the bow for poor shooting, because the arrow is farther away behind the target somewhere. :D
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(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a639/martinhunter1/IMG_20170224_182419090_HDR_zpsyww2ismf.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/martinhunter1/media/IMG_20170224_182419090_HDR_zpsyww2ismf.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a639/martinhunter1/IMG_20170224_183026383_HDR_zpsxidjrwvn.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/martinhunter1/media/IMG_20170224_183026383_HDR_zpsxidjrwvn.jpg.html)
I have heard people state that wood arrows are not consistent weight or forgiving. Its not my experience. If one takes the time to, let's say, manipulate the weight of the arrow, then take the time to tune the arrow, it will give you the forgiveness that you're looking for in a wooden arrow. Most people do not have the time, or don't make the time to make wooden arrows. I believe that some may suffer from "instant gratification" to some degree. JMO.
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KeaganM, price wise, the dozen and a half doug fir shafts I purchased from Surewood Shafts didn't cost me any more than a dozen carbons. I started to feel a little nostalgic thinking about when I switched to traditional, and wanted to shoot woods again. Surewoods came highly recommended and I can see why now.
Jason
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Originally posted by STICKBENDER98:
KeaganM, price wise, the dozen and a half doug fir shafts I purchased from Surewood Shafts didn't cost me any more than a dozen carbons. I started to feel a little nostalgic thinking about when I switched to traditional, and wanted to shoot woods again. Surewoods came highly recommended and I can see why now.
Jason
X's 2 on Surewood shafts.
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I think Woods are much better than any thing out there. Shurewoods fir for me are the best. Hard to break and fly great.
(http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s543/TimkoiTimkoi/013_zpspwtaogqq.jpg) (http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/TimkoiTimkoi/media/013_zpspwtaogqq.jpg.html)
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I'm rough on gear but can get carbons, especially footed ones, to last at least three times longer than woods. Even if woods are cheaper by the dozen the still cost me more in the long run. Same thing with aluminums. I love the romance of woods but they're just not as practical or accurate.
I'm just giving my opinion/experience; not trying to steer anyone towards or away from anything.
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I'm envious of those woodies Zwickey-Fever.
Honestly I shoot carbons now but hate them. While it's true that they will last forever especially when footed, the whole look and feel of plastic arrows with a traditional bow does not feel right to me.
The carbons that do have the wood grain look (At least the Carbon Express ones) tend to have large spots where the wood grain is missing and they lose the wood grain over time with use.
I made a post a few months back about how I thought woodies were pointless but honestly since beginning to make my own selfbows I have favored wood heavily since then since it feels more traditional and I love the all wood look and the process that comes along with making your own equipment.
One major advantage that I do believe that woodies have over carbons is that if a carbon arrow does explode on you, there's a good chance your hand and arm are in trouble and are going to be filled with carbon shrapnel. Having to bend an arrow each time you miss (I shoot at small targets most of the time) tends to get really annoying.
From what I have read with woodies you can build them so that if one does break it will break up and away from you so there's no risk of one splintering into your arm or hand.
As for accuracy if they were good enough for Howard Hill, The Willhem brothers, and all of these other archers of the past than there's no way I will ever out shoot them.
Some of the guys on here have gotten their woodies to very tight straightness tolerances along with spine and weight as well.
I also feel with the traditional lifestyle it's beneficial to get away from the mass produced stuff made in today's instant gratification lifestyle and to make things on your own using a craft that has been used for thousands and thousands of years.
But again, maybe I'm just a little bit crazy because I don't even like fiberglass backed or backed bows in general. When I build and shoot a selfbow it feels very special and feels like I'm apart of something that my ancestors have been doing for thousands and thousands of years.
The whole process and craft of making your own bows, arrows, and strings is very special and goes against the grain of modern society's screwed up materialistic instant gratification values.
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Well I really can't say either or any shaft type is more forgiving than another. That word (forgiving) is totally subjective and can mean different things to each guy. I have made wood, aluminum and carbon arrows (all) fly extremely well and not be touchy to shoot. Generally an arrow I consider touchy or less forgiving will be lighter weight, borderline spined or not matched well to the bow.
I love woods and have decades of history with them. They'll kill anything that walks and do it with style. I find they fly best when the bow is specifically tuned for that shaft and the arrow built from it. Anyone who can't get woods to fly correctly either has a mismatched bow/arrow setup, a tuning issue, or they do something differently when shooting woods. I've seen guys be very distracted or have no confidence to the point the arrows are bound to fly with less predictability. Usually it's a combo of issues. Once dialed in and confident, the arrows fly fine and hit the mark.
Carbons? Love them too...no apology. I shot Beman/Easton and found them to be wonderfully dependable and accurate. For my money the carbon dozen will likely have greater uniformity and shaft-to-shaft exactness. I happen to think they tune up very easily...as easily as any shaft type.
There might be one major advantage to carbons and that's penetration. I have no proof, but there is plenty of anecdotal and empirical evidence supporting that nothing penetrates as well as carbon shafts. For most guys it's not an issue, but some will settle for nothing less than maximum penetration performance, especially on very large or dangerous game. I like aesthetics but I'm pretty sure they don't matter an iota to me when I have a big animal bearing down on me and my brain is chilling down and entering predator mode. I just want the kill and it had better be a clean shot.
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From what I have read with woodies you can build them so that if one does break it will break up and away from you so there's no risk of one splintering into your arm or hand.[/QB]
I think someone's blowing smoke. How do you design an arrow so it only breaks a certain way? Do they mean running the grain off on purpose?
The carbon through the hand are mostly compound'ers. It's still in vogue to just buy a 70# compound from Dick's, practice for a week, and try to go kill a deer. We actually had a guy do just that at our club's 3D shoot a couple years ago (our last shoot is the week before archery here in PA). He had missed target number two on a downhill shot and hit some rocks behind/below the target. Pulled it out of the dirt and kept shooting. A couple targets later that arrow exploded on release and the dry-fire caused the string to come off the cam. Never saw him again.
It's not hard to check your arrows when you hit something hard, but there are always people who either don't know or can't be bothered, and that's when injuries happen. Same as anything else.
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I saw a video of a well known survivalist that was on the show Dual Survival and he mentioned that you want the arrow to be positioned in a place so that the the grain is facing up when nocked on the string (or something along those lines). That way if the arrow does break it will break up and away from your hand.
I'll try to find the video later on.
Another thing that I forgot to mention is that some carbon arrows will make a hissing sound. I'm not sure why but I have a set of Beman Bowhunters that make a hissing sound downrange that is pretty loud to the point where others will point it out to me.
I think it has something to do with the arrows being hollow but my other set of carbons (Carbon Express Heritage) do not make any hissing sound.
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Forest, have you checked your feathers? My arrows only hiss if the glue/quill become separated in the middle (even if the ends are still held firmly in place with glue). Otherwise a well tuned carbon is just as quiet as anything else.
While making wooden arrows, especially with self nocks, I always tried to arrange the grain perpendicular to the string for better durability against splitting. However I've never heard of that being used to prevent any other sort of arrow failure.
Admittedly though, I'm always skeptical of "survival archery". They play by different rules and some of the stuff I've read/heard has been quite inaccurate as far as practiced archery is concerned. For instance one fellow tried to suggest that only green wood can make a usable bow and that once it dries it should be replaced. Not so sure about that!
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If you flare out of the grain towards the end of the arrow, if the eye of the grain is pointed towards the point, a breakage would tend to lift above the hand. if the grain does not have flare out and runs continuous, it is of little concern and the shaft can be shot out of either a left hand or right hand bow.
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Handling, My arrows are 27" bop. I hunt with a back quiver. Another here has the same draw as me and hunts with a back quiver. Those full length carbons are the biggest pain in the butt possible for him when he has to follow me through cover and they look goofy as well, sticking way out like that. He has to do a double grab to get them into action. I handle my arrows by the nock, front loaded carbons are too clumsy to do that and are handled by the shaft. "Getting that second arrow out of the quiver and onto the bowstring will pay off in bowhunting." JS. That especially applies to rabbit and pheasant hunting, a very practical thing to expect with net and near net wood arrows, not very doable with extra long carbon arrows. An old beat up wood arrow is more forgiving of you when you turn it into a small game arrow, they understand and are happy to take on the new task.
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Anyone also notice that you can have a wood shaft that is slightly bent and still flies well? If I have a wood shaft that is not laser straight, it doesn't bother me, it will still shoot.
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I prefer wood....I never understand the mystery and avoidance of wood shafts for traditional equipment. I find them easy to straighten, seal, fletch, etc... I dont sit around hand straightening my douglas fir shafts every week and are fairly durable as well. The benefits of aesthetics, feel, tradition, etc outweighs any benefit from aluminum or carbon.
To me it is like using loose black powder, flint, patches and balls in a blackpowder rifle....yes it is not as accurate, more problematic, etc...but some things SHOULD BE more difficult in my opinion...and you learn to hunt within your abilities and hunt closer or use field or woodsmanship to make up for the parts lacking in equipment.
I tend to think most of the people frustrated are OVER COMPLICATING it and not sure if they are primarily compound shooters or target competition shooters that are used to looking at every grain of weight, and perfection in everything for high level accuracy and competition. Myself...I left compounds to get away from that crap....keep it simple. Funny how guys are still killing elk, sheep, grizzly, moose, whitetail, etc with selfbows, cane or dogwood shafts, trade or knapped points.....where the bow is not fast, the arrows are not light nor are they perfectly straight, and they are still very deadly.
Makes me chuckle when guys say that you need this level of perfection in material and accuracy to be successful. LOL
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I agree 100% Brock.
There's no point in me shooting traditional if I'm worried about additional penetration from using a modern material like carbon. It's similar to trying to increase the acceleration of a classic muscle car by using a high tech engine, the latest tires, and other modern stuff.
No matter what you do it's always going to pale in comparison to the latest and greatest in technology (compounds, crossbows, and rifles).
I'm a diehard kinda guy, if I'm gonna go trad I'm gonna go all the way. No point in half assing things.
I feel bad for the guys that use carbon arrows and do not make their own bows and other gear. They are missing out on a HUGE part of archery. The shooting aspect of traditional archery is only a small part of it.
That being said I have seen guys get their wooden arrows up to par with carbon arrows in terms of straightness and even surpass them in terms of weight consistency.
Some people complain about it being time consuming but that's the whole point of making your own gear including arrows, it's a timeless craft that is highly rewarding and is skillful. It is going against the grain of the whole modern industrialized bigger better faster lifestyle that is downright depressing, unfulfilling, and destroying humanity.
I don't know about you guys but when I start to shave and shape wood it puts me in a meditative state. Plus there's just something magical about turning something so beautiful that occurs in nature (wood) into an arrow or bow.
You reconnect with your past ancestors when you make your own arrows and bows as well.
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Originally posted by forestdweller:
I'm a diehard kinda guy, if I'm gonna go trad I'm gonna go all the way. No point in half assing things.
This gives indications I'm not so sure I can support. I agree with the benefits you listed, and I am a wood user. But I dont know how well the rest of the crowd are going to take being called half assers, if they use aluminum or carbons or dont shave their own bows...lol!
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I always have people telling me that wood arrows are way to inconsistent weight, that is why I posted those pictures, 570 grains X's2 equals 1140 grains. I made up a dozen Surewood shafts and all was 568 to 572 grains. If someone that paicky about weight, maybe they should not be shooting traditional. I have found similar inconsistencies in carbon shafts.
For me, shooting and making my own wooden arrows is just a small part of the traditional experience that I am looking for. Shooting and hunting traditional only means shooting a long bow or recurve bow without sights, making and shooting wooden arrows and sharpening my own broadheads. I did shoot carbon arrows for a while but never did I feel that it was traditional. But for some people, shooting carbons is their definition of traditional. I will say this, when I shot carbons, I would fling one without care of loosing or damaging it. But with wooden arrows, I am slightly more careful on what I am shooting at. That's not because I am afraid of damaging it, Its because of all the work and love that I put into building it! Haha! And besides, a wooden arrow is so quiet compared to shooting a carbon arrow.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a639/martinhunter1/IMG_20170219_151340209_zpsucmr6n75.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/martinhunter1/media/IMG_20170219_151340209_zpsucmr6n75.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a639/martinhunter1/IMG_20170219_151806991_zpsfxm5azzp.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/martinhunter1/media/IMG_20170219_151806991_zpsfxm5azzp.jpg.html)
Its good to see a strong support for wooden arrows
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I think you meant 568 and not 668, nice arrows, but when I get too fancy, I get too careful. I ain't shootin' nutin' pretty at dem pheasants. I am still looking for the ultimate forgiving wood arrow, the one that willingly flies around that annoying branch that always seems to get in between me and the deer.
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Originally posted by Shadowhnter:
Originally posted by forestdweller:
I'm a diehard kinda guy, if I'm gonna go trad I'm gonna go all the way. No point in half assing things.
This gives indications I'm not so sure I can support. I agree with the benefits you listed, and I am a wood user. But I dont know how well the rest of the crowd are going to take being called half assers, if they use aluminum or carbons or dont shave their own bows...lol! [/b]
Nobody is a half asser if they use carbon or aluminum arrows or even fiberglass, carbon, or foam laminated bows.
What I meant by using the word "half ass" was that when I do things I like to go all the way with it that's all.
I misused the word and should of said that I like to go all the way with what I'm doing. It was not meant to be derogatory at all.
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Well now, last year I got way half assed and put a bow sight on a recurve and shot some arrows from 20 to 30 yards. I also shot a bunch of differing arrows from several longbows at those same ranges and a bunch out at point on for the individual bow. I was a little upset by how little difference arrow weight made, within reason, to flight and trajectory. I was also surprised and a little upset, after I built two dozen perfect arrows for a particular bow, that I shot arrows that by all practical reasoning were too heavy and too stiff for that bow, would send arrows that flew nice and straight into the same pile at the same distance, which was much further than anyone would to shoot a deer. Some arrow materials get too stiff too quick and are difficult to gauge, while others if they are too soft in spine get difficult to gauge. If we stay within reason on spine and weight, things work out. It is when we start adding a bunch of goofy variables that things go amuck. By goofy varibles, one fellow here shot full length carbons so he wanted to get full length woods, so he ordered the stiffest woods he could get. He was up to 300 grain heads and they still wouldn't fly. I handed him some 27"bop 45 tapered cedars to try, with his about 45 pound r/d at his true 26 and something draw. He got mad as hell at me, he claimed that he had a 28 plus draw and that his bow was actually 4 pounds heavier than marked. He was wrong on both counts and my 45@27" bop arrows flew flawless from his bow.
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Pretty disheartening to see such negativity towards others.
I don't build and shoot longbows because they're "traditional", I do so because they're the best bang for my buck. Same with carbons. It's my money and what I use does that job quite well without costing much.
We can talk about "tradition" until the cows come home but we're all sitting at computers. Come on. This is just a hobby. Heck, longbows are my career. They pay my bills and keep food on the table. It's been traditional archery 24/7-365 for the last six plus years. Should I quit because I'm only "half ass-ing" it? Of course not, that's just silly.
We're better than this.
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Originally posted by pavan:
I think you meant 568 and not 668, nice arrows, but when I get too fancy, I get too careful. I ain't shootin' nutin' pretty at dem pheasants. I am still looking for the ultimate forgiving wood arrow, the one that willingly flies around that annoying branch that always seems to get in between me and the deer.
Yes, you are correct. Sorry for the typo there. And the point that I am trying to point out is the fact that everyone has their own definition on what traditional means to themselves. For me, it is what I stated. I haven't shot field points in years. I hunt with broadheads and practice with broadheads. And we all have had those tree pop up between us and the deer. That's bow hunting.
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The second most under-used phrase on any forum is "for me only". The most under-used statement is "you should do it as you prefer".
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Before supper I shot one Surewood arrow 60 times at my deer target, right handed, I most of the time shoot left handed these days. I need to get in more walking for my SI joint injury. By rights that particular bow should be shooting 5 pounds less spine. From varied shot positions from 10 to 24 yards. I never missed the kill zone even once. Dang wood arrows anyway. Oh yes, that wood arrow was a bop net length broadhead arrow. That is very difficult to achieve for under 27" draw lengths from Hill style bows with carbon arrows, but easy to pull off with wood arrows. Being able to tag that head with my finger is a very large part of my shooting control.
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Originally posted by KeganM:
Pretty disheartening to see such negativity towards others.
I don't build and shoot longbows because they're "traditional", I do so because they're the best bang for my buck. Same with carbons. It's my money and what I use does that job quite well without costing much.
We can talk about "tradition" until the cows come home but we're all sitting at computers. Come on. This is just a hobby. Heck, longbows are my career. They pay my bills and keep food on the table. It's been traditional archery 24/7-365 for the last six plus years. Should I quit because I'm only "half ass-ing" it? Of course not, that's just silly.
We're better than this.
People do things for different reasons Kegan. I shoot traditional because it requires more skill (more rewarding), is a craft that is actually useful in the real world, and because it reconnects me with my past ancestors. It's a step away from modern society. It's an art form and a sport and I can use this skill to feed me and my family.
While I agree that we do use computers and other technology I do believe that there is a "middle way" in which we can try to make most of our activities as traditional as possible if that's what one wants in their life.
I do not see it as being hypocritical to shoot traditional archery and live a primarily traditional life style yet use modern technology to a certain degree (I try to keep it minimalist myself). Because on the other hand you could just go full out modern and live on the computer, buy and use the latest smart phones, buy the latest cars, and literally go crazy with modernism but that's not what this is about.
It's taking a step away from the modern fast paced industrialized world and doing something that takes time, effort, does not give instant results, is a craft, and reconnects you with the past.
I mean no disrespect but if what you said is true than why is there are a large group of people following a primal blueprint lifestyle? Most people in the paleo diet and lifestyle movement use computers and modern technology but again it's all about balance.
Finally brother, I am terrible when it comes to my usage of words so please forgive me. I had no intention of saying that anyone else was half assing anything. What I meant to say was that I like to go all of the way with doing the things that I do as I find it more rewarding.
I think that it's amazing that you are able to make a living selling longbows, I have seen your work and it is great. No disrespect intended my friend and I wish you and your business well!
Originally posted by pavan:
Well now, last year I got way half assed and put a bow sight on a recurve and shot some arrows from 20 to 30 yards. I also shot a bunch of differing arrows from several longbows at those same ranges and a bunch out at point on for the individual bow. I was a little upset by how little difference arrow weight made, within reason, to flight and trajectory. I was also surprised and a little upset, after I built two dozen perfect arrows for a particular bow, that I shot arrows that by all practical reasoning were too heavy and too stiff for that bow, would send arrows that flew nice and straight into the same pile at the same distance, which was much further than anyone would to shoot a deer. Some arrow materials get too stiff too quick and are difficult to gauge, while others if they are too soft in spine get difficult to gauge. If we stay within reason on spine and weight, things work out. It is when we start adding a bunch of goofy variables that things go amuck. By goofy varibles, one fellow here shot full length carbons so he wanted to get full length woods, so he ordered the stiffest woods he could get. He was up to 300 grain heads and they still wouldn't fly. I handed him some 27"bop 45 tapered cedars to try, with his about 45 pound r/d at his true 26 and something draw. He got mad as hell at me, he claimed that he had a 28 plus draw and that his bow was actually 4 pounds heavier than marked. He was wrong on both counts and my 45@27" bop arrows flew flawless from his bow.
I agree with your findings. We have been led to believe that we need to put out the big bucks to buy the latest cut past center carbon laminated mass production bows, carbon arrows with laser straight nocks, and all the other "traditional" doo dad's that are being sold to be accurate or hell, even hit the broad side of a barn.
Honestly, what's funny is that I got into making bow's not too long ago because I wanted to make my own laminated bow eventually and wanted to learn the basics first. I was led to believe by the big "traditional" bow company's and others that were led to believe the same thing that shooting a selfbow accurately is impossible because of many different factors. I was also led by the carbon and aluminum arrow manufacturers to believe the same thing.
After making my first board bow though I have to tell you I fell in love with the process of making the simplest of bows. I was led to believe that you'd need this tool, that tool, and you'd have to read 5 books minimum on the subject before getting started, and you'd screw up a bunch of times breaking bows but honestly it's all untrue.
It's all a simple straightforward process. Simple to learn hard to master.
The main reason for my posts in this thread on wooden arrows is not to piss people off, it's because I do not want others to be misled like I was thinking that you need to buy the latest and greatest in "traditional" archery bows, arrows, and other equipment just to be able to shoot halfway decently.
It's simply all untrue and has been propaganda by marketing.
I really admire everyone on here for being apart of traditional archery. And trust me I'd love to sit down on a nice spring or summer day and drink a few beers with you guys while harvesting trees and making self bows and toying with wooden arrows.
Like I said it's A LOT of fun and since I have started in this adventure of making my own bows, arrows, and so on I'd have to say that the shooting aspect itself is really only a small part of traditional archery.
I do apologize if I come off as an ******* at times or arrogant but sometimes it gets difficult for me because I love traditional archery so much that I get too single minded and get too intense and lose focus of what I'm saying while I'm typing up a post.
No harm intended and I wish you all well!
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No harm here John, me being from Delaware, knows how us east-coasters speak!! LOL, Joking. I am actually glad to see your interest in traditional archery and welcome the challenge of it.
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I just hate to see division in our archery community. We're all on different points in our own personal journeys, with sometimes very different destinations. That's the trouble with the internet. We're often alone, not face to face. It's not just a small group either, the whole world can see what's written for years to come. We don't have the benefit of facial expression or inflection to help convey our meaning; we have to rely solely on plain text most of the time. It's tough.
I think it's fantastic that everyone can enjoy archery in so many ways. The wide variations to the simple bow and arrow are just amazing and it's wonderful to share in the joy of someone with a passion for something. I grew up poor in an angry, anti-social family. Selfbows and wooden arrows were all I could afford and they kept me out of the house. As an adult my wife and I don't have those struggles and I can spend some money and time as I'd like. I still live for archery and time in the woods, but do enjoy a newer truck as well as a smart phone (gift from the wife). I enjoy archery all the more because I don't have to do it any certain way, and now I can enjoy every way I'd like.
To grow the traditional community and sense of family that goes with it would be a wonderful thing. It's just such a great sport that can be shared with almost everyone. I'm still amazed that such a simple, timeless instrument can have such a massive impact on our entire race. We're all in this together.
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Not only that, wood arrows are more forgiving.
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Originally posted by pavan:
Not only that, wood arrows are more forgiving.
LOL,,Now the timing on your posting is priceless!!
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nuff huggin and kissin lets get back to arguin'
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Doctor Phil moment is over,,,LOL!!
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Originally posted by pavan:
nuff huggin and kissin lets get back to arguin'
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
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Lest we forget...
Indigenous peoples hunted with hand made wood arrows for thousands of years before any of us were born. It's doubtful that any of their arrow shafts were as straight as the worst production shaft you would find today, and weight and length were likely whatever they found. Can you see a Sioux warrior fretting because one stone arrowhead 'felt heavier' than another? The likelihood of any two arrows even being remotely close by our standards is laughable, yet...most young men had killed more game with these 'monstrosities' before they were twenty than a dozen modern trad bowhunters would likely kill in a lifetime combined. It was that or starve to death. I think we obsess over the details too much and depend on technology to make up for what we can't master in skill and discipline, and then still complain if we miss!
But back to the OP's question...I've found wood to be my arrow of choice, even though aluminum and carbon both are technologically superior as well as more durable for the most part. I guess one could argue that a wheelie bow is "more forgiving" over a trad bow too...but not too many of us are running to make that trade.
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Years ago, many years ago, I got my first copy of Hunting The Hard Way. There were tips on how to make arrow shafts and how to fletch those arrow shafts. The fletching technique worked great. My attempts at making Hill style barrel tapered shafts was different. You should have seen those suckers fly. I killed nothing but time and air with those hand made shafts.
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Joke if you'd like but no good comes from being nasty towards fellow archers.
To the OP: see which works best for you.
Paper is good for comparing different gear or techniques. Removes as many variables as possible. I can shoot the same scores with carbons and woods on 3D but the difference on paper is almost 20 points (just in my yard- I don't compete). The wood exaggerates my errors more, but hey, your mileage may vary.
Below a certain level of accuracy gear doesn't make a difference. I spent a lot of time fussing about gear before my shooting got consistent enough to really see a difference.
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Nobody is being nasty Kegan, people are just making light of the situation. Nobody is belittling anybody's preferences or methods or gear of shooting but just making light of the subject matter. As I mentioned previous, everyone here has their own definition as well as methods of shooting traditional. There was no name calling or bashing here. There was just a strong support for wooden arrows, no more, no less.
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There are so many variables in these opinions that no one could draw any solid conclusions. What is forgiving is a huge variable in itself. I have seen wood arrows that others have had made for them, lots of pretty paint, but not right. I see a continuous string of threads of folks not getting carbon arrows to tune that are looking for help. Nothing is automatic. Perhaps pure center shot bows like carbons better, bows that are not center shot need that carbon arrow tweeked just so to be right for them. In Hill style longbows things tend to show up. My three upper 50s to 60s longbows will all shoot the same wood arrows, but my 57.5# bow is the only one that will shoot the carbon arrows that I have, they act way loggy out of the 55 and most definitely take a weak side walk with the 60. All of the bows are identical 3/16" outside of center and are right to specs for tuning. Could I play around with them by going outside of tuning specs to get the carbons to fly? Maybe, but still, those woods fly out of five of my bows and the carbons only fly out of one. ON A MORE FUN NOTE. I broke out my target arrows yesterday, I have been doing onesy shooting with a single bop net length broadhead arrow mostly this year. Target arrow meaning, a dozen 1918s plus one net Surewood and not shooting at my deer targets. My 12 1918s, turned into 8 very quickly. That Surewood is a mean son of gun with a prejudice against orange knocks, it has a pretty yellow nock. Of course, I always shot it last, I didn't want any of those orange nock autumn orangers to hurt my reality check arrow.
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Shooting paper is good for comparing different gear or techniques for some people but definitely not everyone. Guy's like Ishi could not even hit the target from what I have read yet very rarely missed game.
For me the best indication of whether or not the change you made is beneficial is to hang a tennis ball on the target and take one shot from 20, one shot from 30, and on shot from 30 paces and see how close I can get to hitting it.
I'd then work on a form change that day or equipment change and do the same thing the next day with the change. If I miss further away with those 3-5 shots then I'll either keep working with my change if it's a technique change or revert back to what gave me greater accuracy.
In hunting it's only the first shot that counts, sure someone can shoot a 285 NFAA round but it's that one shot in the 1 or 2 zone that in a hunting situation that could lead to an injured animal or a complete miss.
I'm not trying to justify my crappy paper shooting either I'm just saying in my opinion a greater measurement of accuracy for a hunter would be a one arrow shoot off at varied distances and stump shooting.
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For that one shot either stumping or at game, I have more confidence that a wood arrow will not go off as far as a carbon with my longbows. When a carbon arrow is shot weak from a longbow, from what I have witnessed, they seem to have a bigger reaction than a wood arrow. In target scoring an arrow that goes off an inch will make a bigger difference in the score. But then with target shooting, there is no excuse for bad execution, since timing and shot position is totally in the shooters control. It is a common thing for hunters to occasionally make a weak shot at game. On video, Hill did, Byron Fergusson talked about it, when I do not feel that broadhead touch my finger, I know made a weaker shot. A hunter should consider that possibility when setting up his arrows, no matter what type of arrow he is using.
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Wood arrow prices are sure to skyrocket now. :D
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Great stuff guys, always good to have a light hearted discussion. As has been stated above, it doesn't matter what bow you shoot, or what arrows you shoot out of it, when it comes right down to it we are all "brothers of the bow". The more I have shot my test arrows, the happier I am that I tried them. When all is said and done and I settle on a specific spine weight, it wont matter which bow I grab I can shoot the same shaft from them. Just hope I get them ordered before the price jump!... :biglaugh:
Jason
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Come to think of it, I think everyone should shoot aluminum arrows. STAY AWAY FROM THOSE NASTY WOOD AARRRRROOWWSS!$!$!$
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Originally posted by forestdweller:
In hunting it's only the first shot that counts, sure someone can shoot a 285 NFAA round but it's that one shot in the 1 or 2 zone that in a hunting situation that could lead to an injured animal or a complete miss.
A 285 would mean no 1's, 2's, or 3's which is some world class shooting. Way beyond the average bowhunter just looking to cleanly kill a deer and more like your average compounder.
But that's scoring to compare yourself to other shooters, I'm talking about compare YOUR usual scores to YOUR new scores with whatever different gear/style/etc. Personally, I drop about 20 points going to wooden arrows. In the 230 range down from around 250. Not super scores but something to compare. It's helpful in finding what actually works best for me.
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I think its all going to boil down to what a particular persons shooting faults or lack there of,.... actually are.
Im like Kegan, I shoot carbons better in general then I do woods. I love woods, and dang sure shoot them plenty good to kill any deer I shoot with them..., turkeys is a lil more sketchy because of the tighter kill zone.
My form issues, involves a really bad habit, of torquing the arrow shaft when drawn. It causes the shaft to bend right to left, throwing my shots crazy like a poor tune. I'm working on it. But, I've noticed the carbons in my situation are less affected and so group tighter then do the woods. I know it's my faults causing it, but that's where forgiveness amounts come in to play,, right?, when all is NOT right?. In my particular situation the carbon are more forgiving then the woods, because they are less affected by sideways pressure. However....if I'm NOT being a bone head, and concentrate on what I'm doing....I can get pin point accuracy with both wood AND carbon. So, if im shooting correct there isnt much difference really, and they all go where I tell em....but when I'm messing up and doing MY bad habit....the carbon is more forgiving. Ticks me off too, because Ive always loved woods, and continue to shoot them. I'm convinced this matter, is a matter of what we deem our "faults" to be in a realistic and honest way, relating to which type gives a more forgiving result. If there is no fault in ones shooting...lucky you,,,they will both consistently hit the mark and be forgiving to us. How can it do or be anything but? We should probably just be more understanding as to why each of us have our own experiences, demons, and thus opinions. We each certainly have our own faults and dont argue that point, right? That makes it quite a personal experience, as to which is more or less forgiving, and we can argue til the sun dont shine about it. The truth is, we are all likely correct in our opinions, based on our own personal experiences. Nobody is exactly the same, why try to make it so?