You know , the person that harvests no matter what they are after .
The guy that says they had a bad year because they only got three deer this season and only one buck that just didn't quite make P & Y .
And you also know someone that has deer hunted thirty plus years and never taken a thing .
I was just sitting here pondering that and I can't really explain it .
I'm one of the people in the middle , I've taken three deer in a year . Had several years with tag soup .
Yeah , I just can't figure it .
I used to know the first guy you described. Park his truck walk in maybe fifty yards and get his deer or whatever he was after. I feel like I was an example of Murphy's law. Do all the stuff right but still end up empty handed. One reason hunting has become more of an outing for me.
More of it has to do with where one hunts as it does with how one hunts. Also, some folks put limits on themselves, preferring to kill one or a few mature animals rather than a lot of critters. And, of course, some folks are just not very good woods persons/hunters. Lots of reasons for both scenarios. Not mystical in my view.
I would guess that it's most likely a mixture of many things.
But I wonder if sometimes it could be that we pay too much attention to details that for a given situation don't matter, and we neglect things that actually do, for a given situation.
The motive behind this thought is that I've been listening to some podcasts by a fellow named Jason Samkowiak. Sometimes he plays the role of the "contrarian" on topics. He is very opinionated, but he does make one think.
One recent topic he covered was regarding the role of "noise" while hunting.
In a nutshell, he says that some types of noise matter, and some don't. Most interesting was his explanations with regards to what deer in a given environment are conditioned to expect as "normal", and what signify "danger" to them.
One example was regarding deer near residential areas, and also some farming areas. He says that for these situations it sometimes help to walk to our chosen hunting area while talking out loud, laughing, etc. The reason is that the deer are already accustomed to "non-threatening" humans being in this environment. He says that in these specific cases acting "slealthy" and "quiet" (while walking to a hunting area) can actually make the deer think that we are predators (which of course we would be!).
Another interesting example was that of metallic sounds versus other sounds. Clinking buckles, metallic sounds, etc, are supposedly a real turnoff.
All that to say is that we may do things that spook deer without our knowing, while other things may not really matter.
Here's a link to his podcast:
Jason Sankowiak - Dealing with Issue of Noise while Hunting (http://tbwpodcast.com/episode-190-dealing-with-the-issue-of-noise-while-hunting/)
Best wishes,
Frank
Where my son went to college to get his auditor and cpa degrees, there were deer on campus. he would walk right pass them. one pretty good buck would tolerate people fairly close, with in a few feet. One day he was on his bike heading home and that one larger buck was off campus along the bike path about a block from his apartment. My son stopped and talked to that buck. The buck was eating while he talked to him, about 20 feet away. On our end of the state, deer will be out in a field while I am hunting. A car will stop on a gravel road a half mile away and the deer will raise their tails and bolt. Not all deer are the same. Pheasants have very tiny brains, but in a thick switch grass plot that never gets hunted, you almost have to step on them to get them to fly. Two weeks later after the farmer has let a couple of gun groups with dogs in, those same pheasants will bust out of the far end of the switch grass before I even get to the plot.
The reason it always looks so easy for the TV bowhunting shows in Iowa, is that those are basically farm animals that are accustomed to the activity of those that are tending the run ways and feeding plots, where never is heard a discouraging word.
I definitely think animals know if they're being hunted. Last summer, my wife and I were backpacking in the Wind River mountains of Wyoming. We had stopped by a lake to have lunch. Two huge mule deer with big racks came out of nowhere and walked into the lake 40-50 yards from us, drank some water, and then walked off. They looked at us without any concern. We've had similar experiences with moose, elk, and black bear. I've hunted enough that I know animals act totally different when they're being hunted. Even if they don't see you or smell you and you see them, they're alert and cautious, constantly on the lookout for danger.
We've probably all seen movies of lions in Africa lying around very close or even in the middle of a herd of prey, neither the lions nor the herd seeming very excited about anything. The herd knows when the lions are full and lazy, and when they're hungry.
I hunt state land here in MI me it's hard to get shots on animals especially deer. I usually fill my tags every season but not without a lot of hard work. My cousin is the guy you described and over the last 10 years I've learned lot about hunting whitetails from him. Applying more common sense and having more confidence has helped me bag my tags every season. And that can be hard to do on state land in MI with a recurve. The simple things in the woods can make a huge difference. I have learned to trust my gut instinct.
If you ever want to hunt state land Graps I'll take you to my secret " honey hole" any time you want. It's not to far from you either. I'm always looking for someone to take out there.!
I agree with the vast majority of whats already been said, especially about the numbers of varied reasons.
One other thing that ive given a lot of thought to, is timing. Not seasonally, or patterns, just good old fashioned timing...you know...fella walks in and sits down, waits 2 min. and game comes walking by. There are fellas, that just have good luck in their timing, and though we'd all like to think we are somewhat in control of the hunt, it all comes down to timing, that essentially, is out of our control. We can be there when we THINK game should be moving by, but we are at the mercy of life's timing, and that so often goes against our planning and desires. For instance, "If I didnt have to stop and air up my truck tire, I would have been on stand and killed that ol mossy horned buck, that im now watching from 100 yards away, going right past my stand"...kind of timing. Some guys just have better timing.
The greatest hunting trick of all time is called dumb luck. Being able to get off a shot when dumb luck strikes is very important. Sure, you can say that there is a reason dumb luck strikes, but each situation is unique and and unpredictable.
I don't agree. It all boils down to good ole fashioned luck. By the way, I have a bridge for sale.
What ya want for it Charlie? I need one.... :laughing:
Luck is great, but you have to be ready to capitalize on her when she comes. Gotta stay awake, and alert.
Cell phones are a distraction and handheld games are the same. I've been known to check TradGang while on stand, but only when I first get there and the timber is settling back down.
No games for me.
Well I'm not a great hunter but I have had several " lucky days "
A few times I have had deer bumped up and run right to me .
One time there was four guys that walked past me and never saw me . As they barley were out of sight , six deer circled around them and stopped about 10 yards from me , looking away from me . :archer2:
Just picked out the biggest one .
QuoteOriginally posted by crazynate:
If you ever want to hunt state land Graps I'll take you to my secret " honey hole" any time you want. It's not to far from you either. I'm always looking for someone to take out there.!
I might just take you up on that .
I definitely know people like that. Both my brother and younger cousin shot nice bucks on opening day. Neither one set foot in the woods all year to help hang stands, scout, etc., but both go in and kill deer within a few hours of sitting. I spend every free moment that I get in the woods scouting and working but it never happened this year. Frustrating, but that's why it's called hunting.
Personally, I think that some people just have that killer instinct. They seem to instinctively know when to move or get their shot ready and seemingly make it happen. I know enough to realize I don't have it. For me it has rarely been an issue of getting on game, it's a matter of the details once they are there. Some can be learned by experience but I think a lot is just plain instinct. I have come to grips with this reality for myself and I realize that just getting on the deer is a blessing from my Creator and just push on.
I've come to appreciate and understand what my Grandpa meant when he'd say :"Nope, I got lucky today - didn't kill a thing."
Kenny, I only need 2.5 mil for it. There is at least that much on material. Good steal I mean deal, I tell ya. ;) ;)
Turkey Duke, I'm the same way. No issues seeing or getting on game but I have an uncanny ability to mess up every time.
I have seen deer react calmly to me in a casual manner but run away quickly when I was in a hunting posture. I think they can tell the difference.
It seems that many of those instances where the casual hunter routinely takes deer involve a bait pile. At least it appears that way around here. I could be wrong, but...
I have a saying I picked up along life's journey........"luck happens when preparation meets opportunity".
Now there are exceptions, but I live by that rule. :)
Scott.
QuoteOriginally posted by Turkey-duke:
I've come to appreciate and understand what my Grandpa meant when he'd say :"Nope, I got lucky today - didn't kill a thing."
Guess I'm one of those who agree with this. Many times I come home empty-handed, yet happy as a clam. For me, it's not about the kill. It's about a good hunt and giving it my best.
Sometimes there's just a few that just work a little harder, understanding and study the animals that we are after( not what the shows try to tell you) I'm content to sit and study them in the wild putting in many, many hours of sitting and glassing and patterning.
Not just deer, not just turkeys, not just elk everything I am after from fur to monster bluecats. It's a challenge way down deep inside of me to accomplish what I want. Sometimes I fail, does it bother me nope not in the least it motivates me, always.
I have taught my boys the same, we don't lease we work on hand shakes. We don't hunt over bait piles or feeders we scout and do it year round. Does it bother me if other people do, nope! that's what there taught everyday when they turn on the hunting channels. It's not about deer it's about woodsmanship skills and reading the sign left behind, knowing we're to place your stands or blinds and why. IMHO
I better stop :D
Tracy
I always see deer when I am not hunting or not looking for them. Now, when I go "hunting", It's just a walk through the woods, with my bow.
It's about probabilities. And in any game of probabilities, there are those who succeed and those who fail -- both by sheer luck, good or bad.
A simple thought experiment:
Give 100 people a coin and tell them to flip it. Heads are winners, tails are losers. There should be about 50 winners. Take those winners and do it again. Now you have 25 winners. Do it again -- 12. Again -- 6. Again -- 3. Again --1 or 2. The last one or two "winners" just flipped heads 6 times in a row. The odds of that are about 1.5/100. But I can assure you that they're not skillful coin flippers -- it's just dumb luck.
Out here, our success rates are only about 10%. Better odds than a lottery but still 90% chance of tag soup each year. My neighbor usually gets his deer each year but he hunts for a month straight (retired) so he increases his odds accordingly.
This isn't to neglect the role of skill. But luck plays a much bigger role in life, business and fun than we care to admit.
Yes and it makes me a little jealous. Years ago i gave a guy a recurve. With his compound and mechanical heads, if it wernt for bad luck he'd have no luck at all. He went out with that recurve, second time out, perfect shot. Then claimed all he had to do is cant the bow, he knew where the arrow was going and it did. He then went to a longbow, stays on the ground, he wants the option open to run after pheasants and turkeys. He has been running after deer that are not heading his way and killing them. He has been told that he is a snap shooter, he has been told to hold his bow straight up, the experts are doing their very best to 'help' him and get him to come back to the indoor spot shooting club. Twice in two years I got back to my car with my little cargo trailer in tow and found the note on my windshield, "I have your deer cart."
Flipping a coin a deer hunting are far, far from the same. :dunno:
You have to make your own luck through determination and work. ;)
Tracy
Probably 40 years ago my brother and I got a guy started shooting a recurve. All summer we told him all the things we did, scent killers, peed in a bottle , went to stand well before daylight and the list goes on and on. He would shoot once a week or once every 2 weeks. Come season he got out of his car at 9 am walked in drinking a cup of coffee, lit a cigarette and climbed up on a 6 foot step ladder all the while enjoying his pleasures. At 9:30 a Pope and Young walked inand at 10' he shot it. Told us it was a lot easier than rifle hunting. Who Knows!
Tracy is right on. You normally make you own luck.
I gotta say time spent is a big part, sure some folks have some luck sometimes, but the guy who stays after it and can pretty well read the animal's actions will have the most success.
Great story Ben :bigsmyl:
Exactly Kenny! ;) :thumbsup:
Tracy
O.k., this more of the believe it or not, but I tell you now it's all true.
My buddy gets me into hunting in 1996, which I really know very little about, but I can shoot archery, So I take my trusty 1973 Ben Pearson recurve ( against his wishes ) and I bag a doe right off. Few days later I get back into the woods, I bag a nice 7 pt buck.
Then one day we're walking into the woods and I say to him, " do you smell that ? " he says smell what ? I say to him I smell deer, he looks at me like I'm crazy and, says I think you've lost it, and you can't smell deer ! We take a few more steps and there they go, about 5 or 6 deer take off. Needless to say, he's got nothing to else to say, but he gets aggravated with me because he asks me where I'm going to sit, and I tell him I'm going to try a new spot. He starts telling me how he is trying to teach me how to hunt, and how I need to scout an area out and then set up a tree and cut shooting lanes and do all sorts of preperation. So I say, it's a little too late for that and go to my area, find a tree, wrap my climber around it and climb up, as I'm pulling my bow up, I hear a noise and low and behold I'm surrounded by about 7-8 doe's and get stuck with my bow half way up the tree and, no, I didn't get a shot off.
Don't forget now, we have the highest amounts of deer per square mile of any state.
So no, I don't scout, I don't cut shooting lanes, I don't prepare any trees. I go in the woods, find what looks like a good area with some sign, check the wind, and hunt ! I don't even bother going up in a tree anymore. Is it luck, I don't know, I suppose sometimes it is. I did read everything I could find on hunting white tail deer when I decided I was going to do it.
P.S. Charlie, please stop trying to sell my bridge !
I'm one of the guy's who never scores......been at it since 1968. I had a shot in 1972 I think, next shot was just a few years ago. 3 shots since 2 misses and one hit no recovery. Bear Quest #9 in Quebec I had my first Trad kill.....the Bear in my Avatar. But I will say I have had some fantastic hunts and never drew an arrow. Had seasons with out a deer being seen......like last year. BUT.......I'm not a quitter....... :dunno:
Ron, you gotta find a spot with more deer!! You can't shoot em if they aren't there!! ;)
That's why I want to move south by my daughter in Georgia.........
I usually fill a tag or two. In fact I've killed at least one deer every season since I was 17. I'm 46. Every deer is a trophy. Some tags I fill for the freezer. Some because I want to ply my skills on a nice buck. I get.very little time to hunt because we of my job. Because of that I take pride in getting close and seeing deer. A basket six or a flathead, etc ther is an earned trophy. Now don't get me wrong, I have matched wits with some nice bucks and occasionally it worked out. But I don't think success is measured by filling tags either. I had a gorgeous 8pt come past me on 14 November. I had filled my buck tag on opening day and was looking for a fat doe for the freezer. But it was awesome to know that had I been able l, he was as good as dead. That was just as fun as tagging him. Well, almost. But my point is? I m usually successful but there's more to it than killing animals.
This is an interesting subject! I've always wondered the same thing, I think it comes down to certain variables.
1) some people have all the luck LOL I feel like I've been in this category a few times
2) with traditional archery shooting ability is a big factor
3) you'll notice guys who kill lots of animals consistently put a lot of faith in their equipment. For instance, have you ever noticed how few hunters with wooden arrows consistently kill? I don't think it's because wooden arrows shoot poorly necessarily it's more because the "killers" of our groups tend to use man-made materials for better consistency
Lastly but most importantly, a universal trait of all consistently successful hunters:
They are quick to change their set up, hunting location, gear etc. at a moments notice when it appears to not be working well for them. This is the biggest difference between the successful and the unsuccessful.
What about the guys who killed stuff every year before carbon arrows. :saywhat: I don't think gear has anything to do with it. You either have good spots to hunt or you don't. You either practice hard or you don't. You put the time in.......or you don't. The last few years I have been closer than ever, because I have been working harder to make it happen and I sure it will if I live long enough....lol
#3 is one of the craziest statements I've heard on here in a long time. :clapper:
Tracy
No kidding Tracy. I hope the turkey I shot this morning doesn't come back to life once he realizes that it was a Doug fir arrow that went through him.
3) you'll notice guys who kill lots of animals consistently put a lot of faith in their equipment. For instance, have you ever noticed how few hunters with wooden arrows consistently kill? I don't think it's because wooden arrows shoot poorly necessarily it's more because the "killers" of our groups tend to use man-made materials for better consistency.
wow, that is one hell of an assumption.
I have noticed that some people take pictures and brag about every single thing they shoot. Out of the eight deer that got shot by wood arrows, (that I made) this past year in our one tag per hunter area, the only picture taken was one that I took with my cell phone. I took it to commemorate a lengthy pass through shot with a 20 year old wood arrow shot from an elcheapo Montgomery Ward recurve that I completely reworked and gave to a friend when he wrenched his shoulder years ago. When asked why he used that bow, the answer was, "because it is perfect in every way." You cannot put a price on 'it's my favorite just because'.
The single most important thing to consistently taking deer (or whatever) each year is location.
Like has been said, if they ain't there you ain't going to kill em.
I could hunt hour after hour for 100's of hours in my front yard...I still think my chances are zero.
I am blessed to have numerous places to hunt which all hold quite a few deer. I shoot several deer each year and I pass up lots and lots of shots. Not because I am such a great hunter! It is simply because I am there - where the deer are.
quote:
Originally posted by K.S.TRAPPER:
Flipping a coin a deer hunting are far, far from the same. :thumbsup:
My most successful deer arrows are the old cedars with heads that have sharpened many times that getting to the point that when i shoot at a pheasant or turkey, I won't cry myself to sleep over losing an old arrow. The embarsssing part is the last three deer in a row were dumb luck. One i didn't like the thermal shift, pickup my stuff in both hands and just walked into a buck, the one before that I was trying to line up to some approaching turkeys, the one before that I saw three cock pheasants go into clump of brush across the valley, with my most worn Hill ready to shoot, an 8 pointer stands up.
I believe you get luck on your side sometimes , but to say it's all just luck I don't think so. I would venture to say the ones that put in the hours and days and years learning everything possible about the gear and the animals have more " LUCK "
I also tend to post a few pics so I guess I'm a bragger and if that's the case I sorry if I have offended anyone. I will from now on only post a pic of every 3rd animal I kill.
,,,Sam,,,
Sam, I think you should post all the pictures you want. I would bet the vast majority of the folks around here very much enjoy your pictures and the stories that go along with them. I cant remember the last time I read a story around here that I thought came off as boastful. Half the reason I get on here is to talk hunting, read about what works for some folks AND look at the pictures. To see stories and pictures about hunting in places I may never get to visit in person..... Please continue. :campfire:
I don't care, post all the pics you want. Some folks, just don't do that. There are some very good hunters around here that have no connections to any internet forums and when they get their deer, the hunting story goes only as far as the friends that stopped by. Many of them shoot wood arrows and they are not always looking to change things up. Some also have very good places to hunt, they tell very few people of what they see out hunting. Problems come when the very wealthy hunters hear about a large buck, they come to the farmers with open check books to get total access control. A farmer friend of mine was offered $500 for a single day of access to one switch grass plot that I think is about 40 acres. He turned them down.
...some people ruin all the fun.
QuoteOriginally posted by ron w:
What about the guys who killed stuff every year before carbon arrows. :saywhat: I don't think gear has anything to do with it. You either have good spots to hunt or you don't. You either practice hard or you don't. You put the time in.......or you don't. The last few years I have been closer than ever, because I have been working harder to make it happen and I sure it will if I live long enough....lol
I wasn't necessarily saying that primitive equipment doesn't work, obviously it does and well in the right hands. I was just saying that some hunters put efficiency/ease-of-use (read this as more hunting time) ahead of aesthetics.
...meanwhile the woody shooting, plaid wearing, ground sitting folks (as cool as they may be) can't relate when someone points out the reasons they don't enjoy piddling around with equipment as much. You are making it harder on yourself in one way or another. Good for you really! I'm impressed!
Also, apparently they don't post pictures of their success which is a terrible tragedy for us all! I get every bit as much a kick out of enjoying another's success as my own...which is why unlike some on here I will jump at any chance to bowhunt with my brothers, in fact I wish I could.
...two similar paths that sometimes lead to a different end.
Nah, its all fun. Really now, how bad does a set of wood arrows have to fly to really matter at 25 yards. I have carbon arrows that out of one bow are like darts, as they say. Of course, I have wood arrows that match them. I have also seen a few times where the carbon arrows do not perform in real hunting like they did in close practice, to the surprised users of them, especially ones with mechanical heads. The human element throws in too many variables to predict such things in a universal declaration. Besides having game to shoot, what I see with the most consistent trad archers is simply knowing what to do when the time is right and executing the shot as practiced. I have also seen them do everything that they can think of doing right and then punt when the pressure is on and their perfectly tested set up goes haywire with a short draw and a flubbed release. In other words they may shoot at a safe patch of dirt one way and then contort into something completely different when shooting at a deer. My 12 arrow 30 yard groups go from a small water melon to a cantaloupe, I am not the best shot in the world, but I do pride myself in having excellent shot timing. One of the advantages of having many wood shafts to play with is that one can tolerate more arrow loss when hunting small game and flying game. many cp shooters have 3 arrows and they practice much less than someone with a back quiver full of wood arrows at things other than flat targets, stumping, small game, and fun shots. When the pieces and parts of the arrow are cheaper and part of nature more, there is more freedom to chase the adventure. I occasionally cross paths with a fellow that roams the public woods with a metal detector and a rake. He is looking for lost arrows and native points. He has an incredible stash of aluminum and carbon arrows, along with a number of very interesting native artifacts. It looks like missing is nothing new and is not going away any time soon.
For me, terrible! Because I don't know how to straighten them or value the making of my own as much. I commend you if you do, it's a fine art and skill which I strive to learn better. Until then I'll stick to foam with woodies since I value a clean kill as well as any
Yes my first 100 arrows were pretty much failures. I thread fletched them, snakes with feathers. Then I talked to Lamont Granger and Louis Armbruster and they set me on the path to straight flying wood arrows that stayed straight. Lamont lived 60 miles north and Louis lived 60 miles east. Most of the time I get my wood arrows to show nothing more than feathers spinning around the nock after the 's' curve. I do not believe that I am doing anything special. They are either net or bop net. Through trial and error with various shafts used for experiment shots with a different shooter or a different bow, I usually get it right the first try. I do not bare shaft test or paper test, I simply shoot the test shafts or have or have the recipient shoot them from about 40 yards and we watch where they go and how they fly, the right one will be the right one. I can say this a wood arrow likes to have something to fly around.