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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: KyRidgeRunner on March 15, 2017, 11:26:00 PM
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Ok guys so I've been stuck in the house this week, weather is cold and windy. I've played with a dynamic spine calculator until I know every possible arrow combination that should work with my bow. I've noticed that when you enter a 6 strand Fast Flight string over a say 12 strand is makes your bow a little quicker and will change the spine a couple pounds. So my question is: is there any con's to a skinny 6 strand string over say a 10-12 strand?
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I'm curious as well. I've been looking into 6 strand strings.
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If you double serve, pad under the serving, etc. then you are adding a lot of the weight you saved (which isn't a lot to begin with) right back to the most crucial point on the string.
If you just build up the nock point, it can be harder to get a good release. One or the other is required to get a decent nock fit.
Your serving is much more likely to slip, especially if you use a large diameter serving vs. double serving with a small diameter. There's just not enough surface area for it to grip. Slick servings like Halo are the most likely to slip.
According to machine tests and Olympic archers, small diameter strings are less consistent and less stable. I haven't met anyone who shoots a bow accurately for a living that uses them. Realistically though, most of us can't shoot well enough to notice much if any difference there.
Low strand counts will stretch more, creep more, and wear out faster. I've tinkered with them off and on for 20 years and have found little to no gain vs. a comparable string with a few more strands. That's just me. Your results may vary.
Depending on what you mean by "Fast Flight", that could be super tiny, or just a little small. 6 strands of original Fast Flight (BCY's 652 Spectra) would be very small. 6 strands of Mercury would be tiny. 6 strands of 450+ would just be a little small, but nowhere near as small at those two.
No offense to anyone who likes or makes them. I can and have made them, and have shot them a lot. That's just the results I've gotten with them. The best way to find out if you will like them or not is to try one.
Chad
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I never went to extremes but never noticed much difference in speed or anything else by reducing strands. Maybe target bows are different. Durability, finger comfort and nock fit are important for a hunting bow.
Not to hijack...
Chad,
I know you like BCY-X. How many stands do you usually use for fit on classic nocks with .030 Halo? I have switched to classic nock and am trying to get the nock fit correct without padding the serving. I used up a good amount of string experimenting!
Tedd
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Even 10 strand FF strings are a pain to get the nocks to fit snug. 6 strand would be much worse. A quality 10 strand string over a faster string would be better.
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The only string I've ever had break on me was a 6 strand BCY 10 string I was shooting with a 45# bow. That is only an anecdotal example of one occurrence, of course, but that is the last 6 strand string I intend to make!
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Originally posted by Tedd:
I never went to extremes but never noticed much difference in speed or anything else by reducing strands. Maybe target bows are different. Durability, finger comfort and nock fit are important for a hunting bow.
Not to hijack...
Chad,
I know you like BCY-X. How many stands do you usually use for fit on classic nocks with .030 Halo? I have switched to classic nock and am trying to get the nock fit correct without padding the serving. I used up a good amount of string experimenting!
Tedd
IT would be around 18
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Originally posted by KyRidgeRunner:
Ok guys so I've been stuck in the house this week, weather is cold and windy. I've played with a dynamic spine calculator until I know every possible arrow combination that should work with my bow. I've noticed that when you enter a 6 strand Fast Flight string over a say 12 strand is makes your bow a little quicker and will change the spine a couple pounds. So my question is: is there any con's to a skinny 6 strand string over say a 10-12 strand?
Not all 6 strand strings are the same size.
For example: a 6 Strand X would be close to 3 strands of D97 or D10. A 6 Strand Mercury would be like 3/4 strands of X, etc. The diameter of the material must be considered. A 6 strand D97/D10 is very close to 10 strands of BCY X.
When I first began to make strings, I would play around with different strand count strings and actually made 6 strand X strings to test. I could serve them, but I had to double serve it with sx .021. The serving would slip and slide, but you could help that by waxing the string in that are well, but it would eventually slip.
There are a lot of rational thoughts we can use to come to rational decisions about skinny strings, just a few of the obvious.
- they're obviously skinnier.
- they weigh less
- more weight on an individual strand, which could lead to more stretching. I say COULD because it depends on the material, weather, etc.
And i'm sure i'm missing a few other. Nock fit really isn't that big of a deal because the string maker can make a nock fit, that's their job.
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For classic nocks, I use 20 strands (loops padded to 24 with Flemish) and .024 Halo or .025 62XS. With .030 Halo...should be 16-18.
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Yes. Nocks don't fit snugly (sometimes arrows pop loose) and more painful on the fingers. I found my skinny FF to be downright painful even after a dozen arrows.
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I personally don't care for strings under 12 strands for the all the reasons listed above.
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Thanks for all the responses guys. I believe I'll just order another 12 strand when the time comes! This one seems to be doing well, just making sure that I wasn't missing out on something with the 6 strands.
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LBR is a good resource I see no reason to have a string fail.
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I had a Hill Style LB that the skinny string worked well with. It cut down a lot of the "thump" and added some performance to the bow. I did not realize that much difference with my Bear TD's. I have since moved on to Chad's BCY X strings. I find the AZ. heat does not effect them as much.
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What LBR said.
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The skinniest string I make is a 12 strand 8125G. It's what I like to use. Anything smaller than that gets unstable. I've tried lower strand counts and smaller strings, but I've never liked the results.
With .030 Halo it would be a 15 strand 3 bundle or 16 strand 2 bundle with BCY X. I've built that string set up.
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More stretch. I personally like a thick string since it's easier to get a clean release with (does not dig in nearly as much as a skinny string) and it will not stretch on you.
If you want a little more fps just drop the arrow weight slightly.
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I'm too ruff and my terrain is too thick hunting hogs.....so I never went down the skinny string road. Just my preference to have a string more durable if a stand or two gets cut and/or badly fraid....
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Originally posted by forestdweller:
More stretch. I personally like a thick string since it's easier to get a clean release with (does not dig in nearly as much as a skinny string)
Okay,
I've heard this several times and I don't understand this logic. How would it matter when the serving is served to
The same size on both? (Not intended in the least bit rude, geniunely wondering)
A GT nock served string is a GT served string no matter how many strands it's made of.
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I reckon there are still string makers that only offer one size of center serving? That's all I can come up with.
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My limited understanding is that six strand strings are typically only recommended for lower draw weights.
Break one strand in the field and your hunt is likely finished.
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I use 6 & 8 strand strings on all my bows. 6 for 50lbs and under, 8 for over. Been doing it this way for about 7 years.
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People should give the actual measurements of the non served string - NOT the strand count as 1 material may be less than 1/2 the diameter of another. Nobody would call a 14 strand B55 string skinny - 14 strands of mercury or even 8190F would be.
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People should give the actual measurements of the non served string - NOT the strand count as 1 material may be less than 1/2 the diameter of another. Nobody would call a 14 strand B55 string skinny - 14 strands of mercury or eve 8190F would be.
Yep. The diameter of the finished string could vary a LOT depending on what material is used.
That said, I don't know of a material I'd be comfortable using 6 strands of other than 450+ and on a very light draw weight.
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Originally posted by LBR:
People should give the actual measurements of the non served string - NOT the strand count as 1 material may be less than 1/2 the diameter of another. Nobody would call a 14 strand B55 string skinny - 14 strands of mercury or eve 8190F would be.
Yep. The diameter of the finished string could vary a LOT depending on what material is used.
That said, I don't know of a material I'd be comfortable using 6 strands of other than 450+ and on a very light draw weight. [/b]
What do you consider " very light draw weight" ?
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No more than 35# and a short draw length. Basically a kid's bow, and only then if they are using small nocks so I couldn't get a decent fit with more strands.
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Originally posted by LBR:
No more than 35# and a short draw length. Basically a kid's bow, and only then if they are using small nocks so I couldn't get a decent fit with more strands.
Well, Like I said , I've been using 6 strand on all my 50# and under bows. They are D-10. Several have been in use for over 5 years. I got several from SBD and some from Mike at Maddog. No problem w/ nock fit. I haven't had any issues or problems w/ skinny strings. I've found an uptick in performance and quietness.
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That's your call. I won't do it. Any performance gain is minimal, and I've had lots of comments about how quiet my bows were with 12-14 strands of Dynaflight. I've tinkered with them off an on for the last 20+ years in different materials, can't make them do anything I can't make a more moderate strand count do...except stretch/creep more and be less durable. YMMV. I have no reason whatsoever to give anything other than my honest opinion and experience.
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Originally posted by LBR:
YMMV. I have no reason whatsoever to give anything other than my honest opinion and experience.
Oh I agree w/ that. YMMV :D
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Well, I've pushed it to the limit for years-on my own bows. I don't agree that 6 or 8 strands of Ultra Cam or 450+ are weak, nor that they stretch/creep to any noticeable degree. I'm talking 10s of thousands of arrows. And, for what it's worth, I always have an extra string for any bow I hunt or 3-d shoot with....because all strings do fray. So I'm always ready to change strings at the slightest notice. And, the more mediocre your bow's performance is, the more a skinny string will help it. I've never broken one. And, I don't consider the performance gain minimal, when considering all the factors. My ultra cam strings will weigh less than half of the mass of a "typical" 16 strand B50 string, including silencing, built up loops and double or thick single serving.
All that said, when someone wants me to build them a low-stretch string, I use 10-14 strands, simply so their know-it-all friends won't comment and instill doubt. Most gains are still there...and it's that conclusion that is leading me to add a few more strands to my own strings as well. 8-10 strands of the best material, built and padded correctly, is still a vast improvement from most bowstrings in use today. I'm getting older and certainly will NEVER hunt w/o a spare string in my pack, but I don't enjoy making them as much as I used to.
FWIW, my go-to bows these days are mostly Border CHs, and I am following the recommendations of Border and using 10 strands of 8190 on those. Actually seems like a very good material, but I have little comparison regarding stretch at this point.
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Originally posted by DanielB89:
Originally posted by forestdweller:
More stretch. I personally like a thick string since it's easier to get a clean release with (does not dig in nearly as much as a skinny string)
Okay,
I've heard this several times and I don't understand this logic. How would it matter when the serving is served to
The same size on both? (Not intended in the least bit rude, geniunely wondering)
A GT nock served string is a GT served string no matter how many strands it's made of. [/b]
In my experience the serving does not pad the fingers as well as using more strands in the string itself does. It also does not perform nor sound the same. The skinny strings seem to be louder. The only reason I can think of for this is that with more string strands the vibrations (which translate to sound) can spread out more evenly among the string strands resulting in a quieter string.
Since I shoot my bows naked (no silencers) I prefer a thick Dacron string since in my experience it is much quieter than the fast flight materials when used on a longbow.
On recurves the difference is very hard to tell because both tend to be very loud until you add string silencers and limb dampeners along with a high brace height (again, my experience).
I like a nice thick string. It's easier on the fingers, quieter, and gives a better release in my experience.
I mean I'm sure we can double serve a thin fast flight string and it will feel easier on the fingers but it will not feel quite as good as making the string itself thicker and it will still be louder than a thicker string and stretch more.
Why not just make the string thicker and drop arrow weight slightly? A thin string gains around 5+- fps or so over a standard string which really is insignificant in my opinion.
That's like dropping 25 grains in arrow weight.
I use 14 strands of B55 Dacron and with a selfbow that has a little string follow it's literally dead quiet regardless of arrow weight.
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450+ isn't weak. It's approximately 155# test per strand (static load). The fraying is the tiny strands that compose the string breaking down, which will happen much faster with a low strand count (reduced durability).
Performance gains are usually 2-3 fps at best. To me, that's minimal. Almost anyone shooting can gain a lot more than that simply by working on their release. http://www.safarituff.com/trophies.html (bottom of the page)
Never broken a string myself, but I have talked to a few that have. Never fallen from a tree stand, but I still won't get in a stand without a safety harness.
Strings don't weigh a lot to begin with. 16 strands isn't typical for dacron--I rarely build one with more than 12 -14 strands. Even with a string that weighs half, buiding up the serving/double serving/etc. is done to the most crucial point on the string.
"when someone wants me to build them a low-stretch string, I use 10-14 strands, simply so their know-it-all friends won't comment and instill doubt."
I sure don't claim to know it all, but I have been studying strings and string materials for over 20 years. I've been very fortunate to have access to BCY's vast resources, along with some of the best shooters and coaches alive. Of course I have my opinions as well, but I try to make a point to keep those seperate from fact.
If 8-10 strands of a material was a big improvement, seems to me that there would be archers who shoot accurately for a living using them. I've never met one that does in 20+ years of 3D or the last 5 years attending big tournaments like Vegas. Not arguing what a person's personal preferance is, just making a point.
I've made lots of strings for Border bows. It's only been recently he's started recommending 100% Dyneema materials like 8190 (Dyanflight '97, Mercury, etc.). I'll just say they are the exception, and in dicussions with him about string materials, he has a bit to learn yet. 8190 is a very good material, but I like 18-20 strands myself.
Sid is going to have to figure out something else, because 8190 isn't going to be produced anymore once supplies of SK90 Dyneema run out, probably around the end of the year.
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Well, I do it mostly for me....I'm not a dealer or in the business. But, other than maybe one tradganger, very very few have had the number of bows I have since 1973. Virtually every of them got a new string as soon as I got them home. I did make strings to sell, but most of that was back in the B50-only days. When I make a dacron string now I do make it 10-12 strands to get what I can from it. Could be true, a well made 12 strand B50 might approach the performance of a low stretch skinny string(2-3 fps?, assuming you are correct.) But, that's a far cry from the "ropes" so many bow hunters are using. The difference is significantly more than that, when you are talking about over-twisted, 16 or more strand strings with too much silencer and too much serving.
Terry says his requirements amount to a "bomb-proof" string because of where and what he hunts. So, for him, he chose the right criteria. I seldom have any need for that.
I began by saying that I have not had the same impression of skinny strings as some others, and I find them acceptable for my criteria. To conclude that this is not valid, based on what target archers use, just seems beside the point, and not fact-based(not my words). We're all talking opinions based on different experience, and we're entitled to those.
There's no need taking this particular discussion any further.
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"To conclude that this is not valid, based on what target archers use,..."
That's not what I said or meant. My apologies for not being more concise.
My point with that example was, if low strand counts were better (at least from an accuracy standpoint) the best in the field would be using them. I'll also note that a great many of these "target archers" are also accomplished bow hunters.
You said "8-10 strands of the best material, built and padded correctly, is still a vast improvement from most bowstrings in use today."
That was a very broad statement. The same could be said about any well made string with a moderate strand count.
I say this because I make it a point to check out strings at events, and the big majority of "stock" strings are very lacking. Doesn't take much to be a vast improvement over a lot of them.
For me, I think anyone that is serious about archery (target, hunting, or otherwise) that accuracy is the #1 goal. The most accurate in the sport, who spend the most time testing and studying every aspect of their equipment to work out the most accurate and stable set-up, don't use skinny strings. That certainly is a fact.
I won't attempt to argue opinions--those belong to the individual. If someone likes skinny strings, nothing wrong with that--it's their choice. I'm just stating the facts as to why I don't use or recommend them.
If there are any questions pertaining to anything I've said, I'm more than happy to carry it further. I love talking about strings.
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It's nice to live in an age, time, where we have so many choices!