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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: evgb127 on March 10, 2017, 08:26:00 AM

Title: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: evgb127 on March 10, 2017, 08:26:00 AM: If given the choice between a traditional back set bow and a string follow bow, which would you choose and why?
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Orion on March 10, 2017, 08:54:00 AM: Back set. It's faster. That's what i shoot.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: ron w on March 10, 2017, 09:37:00 AM: I have one Hill that is string follow and it's ok, but I prefer straight or back set. Just so much better performance in my opinion. Several string follow bows that I have had seemed to kind of hit a wall on full draw.......not liking that.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Deno on March 10, 2017, 10:39:00 AM: Hill Straight and back set here. Both shoot well but I favor the back set more.
Deno
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: David Mitchell on March 10, 2017, 10:44:00 AM: Straight or back set for me as well.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: McDave on March 10, 2017, 11:06:00 AM: I think your question is incomplete. A more complete question would be: assuming the same performance, would you rather shoot a string follow or a backset bow? For the performance to be the same, the string follow bow would have to be higher poundage. How much higher would depend on the bow, but at least 5 pounds more. So the real question is, is it worth pulling at least 5 pounds more to have a string follow bow?
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: 4dogs on March 10, 2017, 12:15:00 PM: I do like the feel of a well made string follow bow. Of the bows I have of both string follow and back set, I really can not tell the difference in performance and they are the same poundage. I have Northern Mist in a string follow and a backset N.M. I also have a JD Berry North Star and a Morning Starr. All great bows, string follows just have a smoother feel to me.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: on March 10, 2017, 02:56:00 PM: Years ago, '78 or '79, we made some belly set longbows with the Gordon glass with the quilt pattern and the peel strip, so they could be glued with Urac. I achieved the belly set by using a flat riser, on a flat form with tapered bamboo lams. All of the bows were over 80 pounds. They had no shock, I felt no stacking, they were very accurate and dead quite. They required a 5 pound spine drop from the same weight Schulz built Hill that I had for comparison. Now if you weigh that against a osage cored glass backed longbow made by another prominent bowyer of the day, those bows were magic. The same cast as the osage cored bow, with the added advantage that the eyeballs stayed in the same eye sockets that they started in when shooting arrows that were only about 7 grains per pound. I am not one to bitch too quick about hand shock, but that osage bow made change fly out of my pockets.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: on March 10, 2017, 03:06:00 PM: Some times a cedar shaft can come in pretty light, GPP wise, with heavier longbows. Right now I have a set of 65 acme cedars that weigh 503 to 507 grains, complete with 145 grain broadhead. I gave the bow away that those arrow were used with, I went to 190 grain Ribtecs on them so i can use them with a lighter bow. In certain cases with a B 50 string, a string follow bow can be more enjoyable to shoot with a heavier draw and a lighter GPP.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: forestdweller on March 10, 2017, 06:19:00 PM: String follow.

I shoot both a set back and string follow longbow and a bow with string follow is vastly more pleasant to shoot for many many reasons.

If you want more arrow speed just increase the draw weight.

I haven't ever tested it but I'm pretty confident that if we took a bow with set back and compared it to a bow with string follow that was 5# heavier that the arrow speed would be identical using the same weight arrow between the 5# heavier string follow bow and the 5# bow with set back.

The bow with string follow will be quieter, have less handshock, and will be easier to draw back so you can most definitely go up in weight using a bow with some string follow.

String follow also places much less stress on the bow since there's significantly less preload with a bow with string follow putting less energy back into the bow during the shot process and while at brace.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: K.S.TRAPPER on March 10, 2017, 07:44:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by forestdweller:
String follow.

I shoot both a set back and string follow longbow and a bow with string follow is vastly more pleasant to shoot for many many reasons.

If you want more arrow speed just increase the draw weight.

I haven't ever tested it but I'm pretty confident that if we took a bow with set back and compared it to a bow with string follow that was 5# heavier that the arrow speed would be identical using the same weight arrow between the 5# heavier string follow bow and the 5# bow with set back.

The bow with string follow will be quieter, have less handshock, and will be easier to draw back so you can most definitely go up in weight using a bow with some string follow.

String follow also places much less stress on the bow since there's significantly less preload with a bow with string follow putting less energy back into the bow during the shot process and while at brace.
I agree!!! It's the way I build my bows to come out with string follow for a reason.

Tracy
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: on March 10, 2017, 07:57:00 PM: I am waiting on a bamboo riser, Hill money bow 2&1/8" grip to fit my tiny hands, with green glass back and white belly string follow. I had another used string follow that was made for a longer draw than mine, that was also a little light at my draw for the arrows that I have. After being out on loan for over two years to a person that the bow fit perfectly, the loany insisted on giving me money for it. He tried other bows, but in his head, that is what a bow is suppose to shoot and feel like. String follow or back set, a longbow still has to fit the shooter.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: monterey on March 10, 2017, 08:58:00 PM: Quote

I haven't ever tested it but I'm pretty confident that if we took a bow with set back and compared it to a bow with string follow that was 5# heavier that the arrow speed would be identical using the same weight arrow between the 5# heavier string follow bow and the 5# bow with set back.
Testing that was not the intent but chronographing two ASLs, one slightly reflexed at 41# and one slightly string follow at 44#, had them shooting the same arrow of 675 grains at 137 fps with the difference between them about 2/10 of a foot per second.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: on March 10, 2017, 09:22:00 PM: mont, not disagreeing with your findings, not all bows back set or string follow are created equal. Not sure any bow is ever created equal, but close enough counts. The one thing I was wondering, what are you hunting that says you need to shoot 675 grains out of a low forties bow?
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: RC on March 10, 2017, 09:45:00 PM: String follow for me as well. Just feels better to me. speed does not concern me. I shoot 12 grains per pound and shoot through everything I kill. They seem smoother on the draw and softer at the shot. RC
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: MnFn on March 11, 2017, 12:09:00 AM: I have had both. I kind of like the draw of a string follow for quicker shots; it seems smoother to me.

I have a Morning Star that has less hand shock than the string follow I had. The performance seems good, but I have not shot anything with it.

But I think I might have another string follow bow in my rack some day.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: evgb127 on March 11, 2017, 07:41:00 AM: Thanks for the responses everyone. Part of the reason why I asked is because at a shoot recently someone mentioned that Howard Hill preferred to shoot bows with a little string follow. I'm not sure if that is true but it got me thinking.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Learner on March 11, 2017, 09:14:00 AM: Thank you all for sharing.

When I can afford another Hill ASL I was considering getting one with backset (how Craig normally builds them), but after reading these I may instead go for a string follow.

Craig told me that he doesn't build straight ones, just backset or string follow. He glues up his string follows as straight, but after working them down they have string follow.

On my takedown, I did not know this ahead of time. So I requested straight, but what I got was sort of a deflex/reflex with some string follow. This was due to him mounting the two pieces in the handle ferrules with slight angles towards the belly, to try to make it straighter (as it must have started out with a slight backset). But after shooting it for a while and having it settle in more, it definitely has some string follow.

For those of you with string follow bows, how much follow do they generally have?

More specifically, if you have a string follow built by Craig, how much follow does that bow have?

Best wishes,
Frank
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: David Mitchell on March 11, 2017, 11:08:00 AM: I recently have come into possession of two longbows that have just a wee bit of string follow--almost not enough to call it that. They are a Two Tracks echo and a Jim Belcher American. They are among the most pleasant longbows I have shot. Nearly straight but with just a hint of SF. Best of both worlds?
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: monterey on March 11, 2017, 12:34:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by pavan:
mont, not disagreeing with your findings, not all bows back set or string follow are created equal. Not sure any bow is ever created equal, but close enough counts. The one thing I was wondering, what are you hunting that says you need to shoot 675 grains out of a low forties bow?
Let me emphasize slight reflex (not true back set) and slight string follow derived as described above by building straight which allows the limbs too take on a bit of string follow. So they don't really compare to other bows unless they were to come off the same forms but they approximate and somewhat support the differences cited above.

Well, I don't hunt exclusively with 675 grain arrows. Sometimes I drop down to 650. :biglaugh:

I'm set up for the largest game I typically hunt which is elk and possibly hogs. I'm not sure the heavy arrow is needed but I find comfort in it.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Hatrick on March 11, 2017, 01:41:00 PM: For me it's a reverse riser with a touch of back set.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: on March 11, 2017, 02:55:00 PM: Mont, I kinda figured that. I could imagine that an elk rib could make a difference.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Sam McMichael on March 11, 2017, 04:37:00 PM: I have straight and string follow bows and find the string follow to be a tad more comfortable. The straight seems to be a tiny bit faster but not significantly so. I haven't owned one with back set, but I don't believe there is enough variance to make much real difference, so I would simply go with whichever individual bow feels best in my hand.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: NBK on March 11, 2017, 04:47:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Sam McMichael:
I have straight and string follow bows and find the string follow to be a tad more comfortable. The straight seems to be a tiny bit faster but not significantly so. I haven't owned one with back set, but I don't believe there is enough variance to make much real difference, so I would simply go with whichever individual bow feels best in my hand.
Same here. Like them both.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Learner on March 11, 2017, 05:37:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Sam McMichael:
I have straight and string follow bows and find the string follow to be a tad more comfortable. The straight seems to be a tiny bit faster but not significantly so. I haven't owned one with back set, but I don't believe there is enough variance to make much real difference, so I would simply go with whichever individual bow feels best in my hand.
The challenge is if you are custom ordering one. You'd have to know someone with a similar bow, from the same bowyer, which you could try.

Best wishes,
Frank
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: evgb127 on March 13, 2017, 06:16:00 PM: Who makes a good string follow? I'd like to try one out.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: NBK on March 13, 2017, 06:21:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by evgb127:
Who makes a good string follow? I'd like to try one out. [/QUOTE

Northern Mist, JD Berry. Or Newwood makes a stringfollow that's a real nice bow that most guys don't know about.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Yewbender on March 13, 2017, 07:17:00 PM: Hey Evan, all my Hill style longbows are backset and i love shooting them. I don't own a string follow but have shot a few. If you come to the Pennsylvania Longbow Assoc traditional shoot April 1&2 at West Caln i can give you some more info and you can shoot any of my Hill style bows...Gary
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: forestdweller on March 13, 2017, 10:50:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by evgb127:
Who makes a good string follow? I'd like to try one out.
If you have the tools for it I'd head over to your local lumber store and get a 1X2 or 1X3 piece of red oak or maple board and make a simple flat bow with tapered limbs.

Might cost you a mere $8 or less.

It's not as difficult as it may seem (only took me three try's to get a bow that will group within 10 yards and cast a 450 grain arrow about 100 paces.....it's a slug but shootable at very close distances.)

It has 2" of string follow on either limb and it's hard to believe that an $8 piece of red oak is the smoothest drawing and quietest bow that I have shot to date.

If you have a decent farriers rasp (all you really need with a lumber board) you can find out how a string follow bow feels within 1 week if you take your time with it.

I always encourage other archers to make their own bows now because there's nothing more satisfying than shooting a bow you made with your own hands from all natural materials.

Selfbow's will take a natural string follow unless overbuilt or if the wood you are working on has a lot of reverse set before you even begin working on it.

Best of luck and have fun.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: K.S.TRAPPER on March 14, 2017, 08:49:00 AM: You can also build a much better bamboo backed bow easily for very little cost. I build mine so they come out with string follow, there a pleasure to shoot and hunt with.

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/0c38c133.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/0c38c133.jpg.html)

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/01ec600f.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/01ec600f.jpg.html)

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/t3-7.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/t3-7.jpg.html)

Tracy
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: forestdweller on March 14, 2017, 02:42:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by K.S.TRAPPER:
You can also build a much better bamboo backed bow easily for very little cost. I build mine so they come out with an inch of SF, there a pleasure to shoot and hunt with.

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/0c38c133.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/0c38c133.jpg.html)

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/01ec600f.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/01ec600f.jpg.html)

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/t3-7.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/t3-7.jpg.html)

Tracy
Not trying to start an argument with you Tracy but a bamboo backed bow is going to be a whole nother beast to make compared to using a single "stave" of wood since it's a laminated bow and since bamboo is very finicky.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: K.S.TRAPPER on March 14, 2017, 03:15:00 PM: Single stave of hickory backed with bamboo! I have no problems building them out of staves and have not found bamboo to be finicky like you say. It's very easy to work with easy to get and cheap to bye.

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/Mobile%20Uploads/D1961E55-4E1D-4A92-82C4-DDA87E1AB752_zpscas4fkml.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/Mobile%20Uploads/D1961E55-4E1D-4A92-82C4-DDA87E1AB752_zpscas4fkml.jpg.html)

Another!

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/Mobile%20Uploads/80417025-25D8-4735-83CB-13C463E3483D_zpsmsdlntpc.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/Mobile%20Uploads/80417025-25D8-4735-83CB-13C463E3483D_zpsmsdlntpc.jpg.html)

Another!

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/bowandshoppicks031.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/bowandshoppicks031.jpg.html)

Ipe board bow backed with boo!

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/null_zpsb38eef94.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/null_zpsb38eef94.jpg.html)

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/null_zps28c7932f.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/null_zps28c7932f.jpg.html)

I'm sure I could dig up plenty more picks. Don't worry I know what your saying I've built plenty of selfbows, just got tired of there performance exspeacially oak. Oak is as slow of wood and weak as you can make a board bow. It's just easy to bye, hickory will make you a better bow almost evertime. IMHO

Tracy
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: on March 14, 2017, 04:14:00 PM: Years back I built one pig nut hickory out of a very straight grained piece. This bow has been through a lot, my last change to it was to shorten and and retiller it. I am curious what would be different or better if it had bamboo backing. I am thinking about reducing the poundage some. My snow blower starter died and I lit up both shoulders rope pulling the beast. That upward jerk is not a good direction for the shoulders. The 'pignut' has been a very good bow, that is why it is the only one I have.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: evgb127 on March 14, 2017, 05:52:00 PM: Wow Tracy, you make a great looking bow. Sadly, I lack the tools, time, and competence to ever build my own bow. I've only shot glass bows, but sometime I will try a boo bow.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Ray Lyon on March 15, 2017, 09:14:00 AM: I've got a 55# Northern Mist Shelton string follow and a 57# Howard Hill Tembo with backset. Really don't see a difference in performance to the naked eye, however a huge difference in shooting pleasure. I'm a string follow fan. Have also owned a JD Berry Northstar and John Schultz 'Natural' laminated all bamboo. Both of which were string follow. Both well behaved in the hand. The 66" Shelton is just a beautiful shooting bow in a manageable longbow length.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: jwhitetail on March 15, 2017, 09:54:00 AM: I have turned from preferring the back-set ASL bows to string follows. I am a huge fan of JD Berry Archery bows and while both the string follow and back-set models are quiet and smooth, I have just come to love the feel of the string follow. I have been shooting the JD Berry Heritage which is a string follow and it is just amazingly smooth. In terms of performance I actually feel that you lose very little with the string follow. Mine all have a great deal of power and deliver a very fast arrow out to distances far beyond what are considered normal hunting distances.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: evgb127 on June 16, 2017, 09:39:00 PM: Thanks for all of the responses. I just ordered a string-follow Howard Hill Tembo. I can't wait to try it out.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Flingblade on June 17, 2017, 11:40:00 AM: Quote
Originally posted by evgb127:
Thanks for the responses everyone. Part of the reason why I asked is because at a shoot recently someone mentioned that Howard Hill preferred to shoot bows with a little string follow. I'm not sure if that is true but it got me thinking.
true
pg. 86 "Hunting The Hard Way" by Howard Hill
"A straight-end longbow that follows the string slightly, with good cast, carries a heavy string, is pleasing to draw, and is comfortable in the hand, can be shot much more accurately under hunting conditions than a sensitive bow.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Ulysseys on June 17, 2017, 12:04:00 PM: Congrats on your purchase and I'll vote string follow as well. For me they're just nicer to shoot.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Sam McMichael on June 18, 2017, 09:13:00 AM: I have both straight and string follow. I find the string follow to be very smooth and I shoot them just a bit more accurately.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: GregD on June 18, 2017, 09:53:00 AM: Tracy, Is the first bow bamboo backed osage? Are they lams or a single stave? Thanks
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: toddster on June 18, 2017, 10:40:00 AM: I have shot many different bows by different bowyers, and yes the statement "depends on the bowyer", is so true. I prefer a quality string follow bow, as for me much more accurate.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: ron w on June 18, 2017, 04:51:00 PM: I just got a Two Tracks Echo with string follow. Was never a big fan of string follow but I test drove this one at Compton on Saturday and it came home with me. It's a 70"er 44# @ 28 and it shoots real nice. Dark brown glass and Osage riser. So now I guess I'm a fan of both.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: joe vt on June 19, 2017, 08:32:00 AM: Congrats on your order.

I have no experience with a backset longbow; however I recently received a string follow longbow and love it! The longbow is a 2pc and was made by Mike Mecredy at Maddog.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: on June 21, 2017, 11:47:00 AM: Quote
Originally posted by RC:
String follow for me as well. Just feels better to me. speed does not concern me. I shoot 12 grains per pound and shoot through everything I kill. They seem smoother on the draw and softer at the shot. RC
Yep...
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: K.S.TRAPPER on June 21, 2017, 01:26:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by GregD:
Tracy, Is the first bow bamboo backed osage? Are they lams or a single stave? Thanks
Yes, BBO with lams and I make them out of staves also. Side view of that bow.

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/095095d6.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/095095d6.jpg.html)

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/f25a6279.jpg) (http://s904.photobucket.com/user/TmPotter47/media/f25a6279.jpg.html)

Tracy
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Ray Lyon on June 21, 2017, 03:44:00 PM: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: MIBIGHNTR on June 21, 2017, 04:38:00 PM: Sorry, but could someone explain the difference between a "sting follow" and an "ASL"??

THANK YOU
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: evgb127 on June 21, 2017, 04:50:00 PM: Hi Mark,

I'm sure someone can explain this better than me, but since I started this thread...

ASL's or "American Semi-Longbows" are D-style bows, which people often call Hill-style bows. The limbs can either be backset, straight-end, or string-follow.

When unstrung, a straight-end bow will have limbs that are, well, straight. A backset bow will have limb tips that are forward (i.e., ahead of the riser), and a string-follow will have tips that are backward (i.e., set behind the riser).

I hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: on June 21, 2017, 06:59:00 PM: So if 68" is semi long, an ACL would be crazy long? It gets confusing then because ASL could also be 'a short longbow', which you don't want. Most of the time from what I read it could just as well mean ASL- a slow longbow. There are exceptions of course to all rules, some times an ASL can be faster than an ASR, a slow recurve. It's all subjective, I have an ASBMW,1976 750/7, that is still way faster than I need it to be.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Orion on June 22, 2017, 10:13:00 AM: When Hill offered the term semi-longbow, he did it in comparison to the English longbow, which, in fact, was quite a bit longer. Not uncommon for them to be 72 or more inches long.

BTW, the D-shape referred to the cross section of an English longbow limb, not the strung profile of the bow, which also happened to be D shaped. The American Semi-longbow limb has a flatter, rectangular cross section, but does string up into a D shape profile.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Flingblade on June 22, 2017, 10:54:00 AM: Another interesting note from Hill on bow length;

From "Hunting The Hard Way" by Howard Hill

"Use a 6-foot bow and a 28-inch arrow as the standard. For every inch or portion of an inch taken away from the length of the arrow, take twice that amount from the length of the bow."

Hill also recommended not shooting more than a 28-inch arrow due to the difficulty finding shafts with enough spine for the heavy draw weights. When I bought my first Hill bow I was shooting a 29" arrow and with the shafts available wasn't concerned with finding the correct spine so I was looking for a 74" bow. The longest available from HHA was 70" so that is what I bought. I haven't tried a string follow yet but a Northern Mist Shelton is on my list.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Caboo on June 22, 2017, 12:22:00 PM: If I could shoot 70+ #'s like I use to in my younger days it would be string follow but now I want to maintain a flatter trajectory so it's setback bows. What a lot of us forget is Howard didn't lose anything with a string follow longbow when he was shooting 80 to 100# plus.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: MIBIGHNTR on June 22, 2017, 12:29:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by evgb127:
Hi Mark,

I'm sure someone can explain this better than me, but since I started this thread...

ASL's or "American Semi-Longbows" are D-style bows, which people often call Hill-style bows. The limbs can either be backset, straight-end, or string-follow.

When unstrung, a straight-end bow will have limbs that are, well, straight. A backset bow will have limb tips that are forward (i.e., ahead of the riser), and a string-follow will have tips that are backward (i.e., set behind the riser).

I hope that makes sense.
MUCH APPRECIATED!!

Mark
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: JRY309 on June 24, 2017, 07:56:00 PM: I like straight or backset but I have shot and had all three stlyes and would not pass on any of them.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Ari_Bonn on June 24, 2017, 11:55:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Flingblade:
Another interesting note from Hill on bow length;

From "Hunting The Hard Way" by Howard Hill

"Use a 6-foot bow and a 28-inch arrow as the standard. For every inch or portion of an inch taken away from the length of the arrow, take twice that amount from the length of the bow."

Hill also recommended not shooting more than a 28-inch arrow due to the difficulty finding shafts with enough spine for the heavy draw weights. When I bought my first Hill bow I was shooting a 29" arrow and with the shafts available wasn't concerned with finding the correct spine so I was looking for a 74" bow. The longest available from HHA was 70" so that is what I bought. I haven't tried a string follow yet but a Northern Mist Shelton is on my list.
Hold on if I remember correctly those measurements are for his selfbows. There is another for glass ones.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: on June 27, 2017, 12:59:00 PM: I think that HHA clarified length measured between the string groves, versus tip to tip length. 68=28, 66=26. Things like reverse handles and string follows change the equation some as well. I am not sure how much change in performance it really makes. I expect every situation may be different.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: strigif0rm3s on December 26, 2023, 10:50:34 PM: Let's reignite this debate because why not.

I'm more partial to backset but do love a GOOD stringfollow bow.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: 58WINTERS on December 27, 2023, 03:59:14 PM: TTT
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Wudstix on December 27, 2023, 04:48:37 PM: As close as I come to a REAL longbow is a Kota Badlands mild D/R - D shaped bow. All the rest are "hybrid" or D/R bows.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Orion on December 27, 2023, 07:22:33 PM: I changed my mind. I said in a post on the first page that I preferred back set ASLs because they're faster. True, they are a tad faster than straight or string follow bows, but string follow bows have a draw force curve that tends to fit me better. They start out softer and build weight faster toward the end of the draw, almost feeling like they stack a little. However, before the heavy lifting starts, my body is in better alignment to handle it. String follow bows are also gentler on the bow hand at release, i.e., less hand shock.

We're not talking big differences here, but the more I shoot string follow ASLs, the more I like them.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Rob DiStefano on December 27, 2023, 08:59:10 PM: It's all personal and it's all good.

I'll take string follow any day for it's typical shot-to-shot stability. As with back set or string follow, it's the rest of the design and build that will matter as much.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: evgb127 on December 27, 2023, 10:04:46 PM: Since I started this thread about six years ago, I’ve tried all sorts of different bows. For me, it all comes down to the tillering and bowyer. A Northern Mist American, which has a considerable amount of backset, will feel much more stable and shoot circles around some other bowyers’ string follow offerings. That said, all things the same, I’m in the stringfollow camp for the reasons stated above.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Hill Style on January 13, 2024, 12:26:48 PM: I’m shootings backset San Marco now but have owned several string follow bows. It depends on the design and bowyer imo as to how much difference it makes.
A guy on another forum chronograph a few of his ASL bows. A Northern Mist American with 2” of back set and a couple pounds heavier was only 3 fps faster than a string follow JD Berry longbow of lesser draw weight. Proof to me a string follow bow doesn’t necessarily have to be slower than a backset bow. If those two bows were the exact same draw weight the string follow would be faster.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Rob DiStefano on January 13, 2024, 12:34:23 PM: Hmmmm .... how can a longbow that has back or belly set be called an ASL?
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Hill Style on January 13, 2024, 01:40:03 PM: Quote from: Rob DiStefano on January 13, 2024, 12:34:23 PM
Hmmmm .... how can a longbow that has back or belly set be called an ASL?

American semi longbow (ASL)
The name doesn’t have anything to do with the limb profile it was built to.
Straight,backset,string follow are all ASLs. Howard Hill coined the phrase and he built them string follow and backset some with a lot of backset.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Orion on January 13, 2024, 01:44:32 PM: From myth earlier post. "When Hill offered the term semi-longbow, he did it in comparison to the English longbow, which, in fact, was quite a bit longer. Not uncommon for them to be 72 or more inches long.

"BTW, the D-shape referred to the cross section of an English longbow limb, not the strung profile of the bow, which also happened to be D shaped. The American Semi-longbow limb has a flatter, rectangular cross section, but does string up into a D shape profile."

According to Hill, an ASL's limbs were long (but not as long an an English longbow, thus the word semi-long)and rectangular in cross section. He didn't mention back set or string follow in his definition, but most of his early bows were string follow because they were all bamboo laminations and took a set naturally. I believe he started incorporating back set into his bows with the use of fiberglass which would hold the shape.

Whether the limbs are back set, straight or string follow, it doesn't change the definition of an ASL.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Rob DiStefano on January 13, 2024, 02:36:07 PM: Semantics to a fair degree. In England, longbows without ovoid bellies are called "flat bows", which is exactly what Hill created. The prime difference is in the limb cross sections.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Hill Style on January 13, 2024, 03:29:42 PM: One definition of semi is half of. The two pictures one is of a cross section of an English longbow from the Mary Rose showing nearly a round shape. The second picture is from Howard’s book Hunting the Hard way notice the cross section is about half of what the English longbow was. Also notice the taper to the belly of the bow on a true ASL, nothing really flat on these bows. And this was a self bow made from a stave. When Howard moved to glass backed bows the limb width narrowed as we see in John Schulz bows or later Howard Hill archery bows.
Bob Burtons book shows several pics of Hill made bows, some backed with fiber glass some bamboo only. They all had the taper or trapping to some degree. The newer made rectangle nearly square edged longbows being sold are not Hill style bows.

I think Howard had the term exactly right with Semi Longbow I think the Semi is the (cross section) not necessarily the length as the bow pics in his book were for a 6’ bow.
I think American Semi flat bow could be a term that fits some of the wider limbed longbows being produced today, as they are not Hillstyle nor true ASL.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: GregD on January 16, 2024, 09:51:03 AM: I did not realize this was an old thread till I saw I asked a question. The only thing I know for sure is I still love the look of Tracy’s BBO.
Title: Re: ASL's: Back Set or String Follow?
Post by: Hill Style on January 16, 2024, 11:50:56 AM: For what appears to be a simple design of a bow there is a lot more going on. And even more confusion it seems.
Just like the “D” shape. An English longbow is not “D” shaped in cross section it is nearly round. We know this because there are still real actual English longbows to look at. Howard Hills illustrations in his book show the “D” shape of the cross section of the ASL. Clearly you can see this for yourself.

No where in Hills book did he instruct anyone to make a bow with rectangular cross section. And if you look at any bow built by Howard Hill you see the tapered trapped to the belly,just like he instructs in the book.

Over the many years bowyers have widened and flattened and squared up the edges of “their” bow designs. Same with the round handles and long risers. That is not Hills design. There’s way more to a true Hillstyle bow than a leather grip and pretty limb veneers.

On page 91 of Hunting the Hard way Hill writes about the 3 distinct types of bows. Straight end longbow, short flat bow and composite recurve. He goes on to say some bows are a bastard design having varying combinations of features of all 3.

When Hill refers to straight end longbow he means just that the ends don’t curve, he’s not talking about the limb profile being backset or string follow.

It pretty obvious when Hill said Semi longbow he was talking about the cross section. The English longbows recovered from the Mary Rose where from 72”-78”
The bow in Hills book illustration of an ASL is 72” long. That’s not much difference in length.