Hello all, I'm new to the forum and traditional archery as well. I've been reading a lot on the forum and enjoy the site. So a friend of mine gave me my first recurve. It is a Wing Thunderbird and I absolutely love shooting it. To get to my question, can you really feel the difference in a nice custom made bow and the bow I shoot? I got to shoot a Samick Sage and it had a lot more vibration in the handle. It didn't feel as good. My bow feels great to me. I haven't gotten to shoot, let's say a black widow. What will the difference be? Will it feel better? Shoot better? Thanks for reading.
Hi I am 65 years old and my first real hunting bow was a Wing Thunderbird when I was 13 years old. It is a fine bow, feel free to enjoy it and expect to take some animals with it.
Thanks for the reply hitman. My goal this year is to kill a deer with it. I'm motivated for more than one reason but would love to give my friend that gave it to me a call and tell him I killed one with it.
Wing Thunderbirds, Slimline Wings, and many other big company bows are every bit as good as custom bows.
tons of great bows out there. thats the fun. try to shoot em all. haha what part of MS you from? I live in Vicksburg
Welcome from Michigan . :wavey:
As far as your question , some hi end customs are awsom , but do you really need a Cadillac , when a good midsized will work just fine .
Thanks for the replies guys. Hey BOHO, I'm not too far from you. I live in Pearl. I'm not in a hurry to get a new one by any means. I just enjoy looking and seeing what's out there and the different styles. This bow feels really good to me. Besides, I'll be spending all of my extra money on arrows for awhile. I went to a shoot in Tannehill a week ago and lost a few.haha
Stick with the Wing, to start. The more you become familiar with shooting traditional, the more you will be able to distinguish the subtleties between bows.
Welcome Dude! Good advice from Archie!
Deno
In its day, you could not do better than a Wing! The Samick you shot might not have had the limbs tight in their brackets if you felt vibration.
QuoteOriginally posted by Archie:
Stick with the Wing, to start. The more you become familiar with shooting traditional, the more you will be able to distinguish the subtleties between bows.
x2
Thanks for the advice. I haven't even formed a solid taste in bows if that makes sense. I loved the take downs until I went to Tannehill and then saw all of the different bows and now I like one piece designs. Anyway, I'm completely content with what I have right now.
The better you become the more difference your can discern and the more you know what you like.
First of all, welcome! The more bows you shoot and the more you shoot traditional bows the more you can feel the differences. You have a sweet bow. Enjoy shooting it and try to get to some of the big traditional shoots and then you can try shooting lots of bows!
The secret is how good you are to fine tune your rig.
It is incredible how well some fine tuned equipment can shoot
Had a used Wing Slimline Pro for some years, when I started shooting. Felt like a pretty good bow to me. Was my only recurve, so I can't compare directly to the current custom ones, but I bet yours is a really good bow. Should serve you well, and you'll know if and when it's time to try something else.
I remember the Thunderbird hanging in the Mr. Wiggs store (Richmond, IN) when I was 17 or 18 years old (1971-72). If I recall that bow (all black) was priced closer to $100 than my occasional $20 budget could stretch. I wanted one but couldn't afford it. I think it was $25 more than the Bear Super K, that I also couldn't afford.
I think you have a great bow! I've owned and liked Widows (3)...great bows. I wouldn't have any qualms about the Thunderbird though. Its mass weight should feel very nice!
Just depends. I would punch my mother to get back a mass produced damon howatt monterey I let go. But there are certain "well respected" custom bows that I wouldnt take for free if I wasnt allowed to sell them.
But a really good custom is going to be better for sure. There is a reason people are willing to pay $1300 for a widow recurve.
Try to hook up with some of the folks in Southern Traditional Archery club. A bunch of wonderful people who will enrich your life, and you can learn more than you ever thought possible.
As for your bow, it is a proven example of a product that has lasted for years at the top of the heap. A custom bow will not be a magical aid to your archery. Learn to use what you've got, then you'll know if you want to buy a custom.
The answer is yes, you will feel the difference
There is a definite difference in smoothness of draw and overall feel of the shot between my Chekmate Attila -which is no way near a high end custom - and 40 year old Black Bear at 4 inches longer, 8lbs less weight, and more mass but was more of an entry level bow in it's time. Your Thunderbird is much better in design, materials, and mass than the Bear and for a first recurve you are in a pretty good position to start.
Wing bows (think BOB LEE) were some of the best available. Bob Lee still makes exceptional bows and of all bows I've owned over nearly 50 years of shooting, my Bob Lee and/or Wings have been my all around favorites. So net, what you have is, in my opinion, among the top of the production bows.
Just like there are differences in production bows, there are differences in semi-custom and custom bows. I've shot some customs that were not as good as top-end production bows and perhaps not even as good as mid-level normal production bows, especially considering the price tag difference. In general top-end customs are probably "better" than production bows...certainly in beauty and hopefully in performance as well.
Bows are personal. What I like and works for me could be quite different than someone else. If possible, when you are ready, get your hands on something made by the bowyer you consider and find out for yourself.
Lots of variables. My bet is the Samick you shot had the string that came with it, which is lousy. Something as simple as a good string can change the way a bow feels a LOT. Also, as mentioned, tuning makes a big difference, as does arrow weight, nock fit, your release, etc. etc. etc.
With some custom bows, you can feel a difference, with others, not so much. I've shot some very expensive custom bows that were pretty bad. The worst handshock I've ever experienced was from a "custom" recurve. The uber-cheap Samick Journey I have, with a good string, shoots as well or better than many custom bows I've shot over the past 20+ years.
I think you have the right idea. You said you haven't developed your taste in a bow yet. That takes time, and even then your taste is liable to change as you progress. There will be another shoot at Tannehill in June, the Howard Hill. Come back and check out more bows, take your time, do your homework.
Chad
QuoteOriginally posted by mississippidude:
Thanks for the replies guys. Hey BOHO, I'm not too far from you. I live in Pearl. I'm not in a hurry to get a new one by any means. I just enjoy looking and seeing what's out there and the different styles. This bow feels really good to me. Besides, I'll be spending all of my extra money on arrows for awhile. I went to a shoot in Tannehill a week ago and lost a few.haha
Went to highscool in Brandon, graduated and went to college in Alabama and haven't been back to MS since. Sure loved it down there!!
Oh yeah, Welcome and shoot what ya got, learn and have a blast!!!
Ive always wondered why people speak highly of the samick sage.
I'm not going to mention any names or company names. But I ordered a custom bow from a very well known bowyer with a great reputation. Took a little over 9 months to receive the bow. I set it up to the bowyers suggestion. I started grouping but the bow was the least forgiving bow that I ever shot. Every detail in my release and grip had to be just right for me to hit where I was aiming. I tried carbons, aluminum and wood arrows, different feathers, different weighted heads as well as different lengths of arrows. I wounded and loss 2 nice bucks the first year. I also founded out that the bow was actually 51#@28in. not the 55#@28in. like I ordered and the bow was marked by the bowyer 55#@@*in.. Come the second year, the upper limb cracked when drawling back on a another nice buck. So I sent it back with a money for another set of limbs. When I received my boy back, my grouping was worse. Come the third year while on my way to my stand a 150 inch class buck busted from the hedge row chasing a doe directly to me! He stopped broadside at 18 yards. The arrow fish tailed like no other arrow I have ever seen launched of a bow. My arrow hit the buck to only bounce out!! It only went in as deep as the broadhead with no blood on the shaft. I sat there with my jaw dropped. When I called the bowyer up to get his input, he asked if it was on video? I just laughed and said no and that there was something definitely wrong with his bow. His response was, "Let me shoot you with that bow and I will show you penetration". I said conversation was over at that point. The very next day, I took my old Martin Hunter bow into the stand and killed a 141 inch 8 pointer! I spent $1550.00 on that bow, 2 limbs. In good conscience, I could not bring myself to sell the bow so I just gave it away for free. The guy called me about 2 weeks later wanted to know what was wrong with the bow? I said if I knew, I would still have it. The bowyer did call back and apologized after he heard that I gave the bow away for free.
My point is this, you do not have to spend a ton of money to be accurate, harvest animals or have fun. Find a bow that fits you and meets your needs. And by all means, I'm not trying to offend any bowyers, just sharing my experiences. My father who has been bow hunting since the 50's has killed a ton of whitetails with his old Shakespeare. Like I said, find a bow that fits you and that you feel comfortable to you. That bow for me is a Martin.
I have 3 Wing Thunderbirds and they are great bows. They are a lot better than most bows out there. I have and have owned several custom bows and my go to bows for the most part are Wing tbirds and Bear mag td's ( I have the wood riser Bears too). I have been shooting for over 45 years and have had as many as 35 bows at one time and the Wings keep being at the top of the pack to go hunt and shoot. Fast, quiet and dependable.
Thanks for all of the replies guys. I love how active this forum is! Mine is an AMF and I've read up on them but I'm curious as to what year it was made. Is there a list of serial numbers made by year anywhere?
Samick comes with a pretty poor string. Putting a good one on it really changes the way it shoots.
I have few custom bows. Often, the only real difference between a stock bow and a custom job is that your name is printed on the custom bow. An individual bow is good or bad (assuming sound construction) simply determined by how it performs in your hands. A well designed bow should be smooth and you should be able to accurately shoot it easily. Sometimes, though, a particular style bow may not fit well into your style of shooting. This does not make it a bad bow, but it simply means that it is not a good fit for you. Most of us shoot non custom bows, and they work just fine. I have had only one Wing bow, a Redwing Hunter. It is a very nice bow. Performance, not cost and glamour, separate good from bad.
My only advice is don't ever sell the bow you have now. Sounds like you really like it and you'll regret it. The grass isn't always greener with other bows.
That being said, I always enjoyed buying/selling/trading different bows and I'm sure you will too
I think I should note, although I do enjoy shooting the Samick Journey (I have two of them), I also have owned several custom bows, still have a few, and am down to about 4 months wait on the one I have on order. Re-read my post and it could be taken that I don't appreciate custom bows--I do, very much so--but some of them aren't all they are cracked up to be on message boards. Others may be a great bow, but with lousy customer service (as noted earlier).
QuoteOriginally posted by md126:
My only advice is don't ever sell the bow you have now. Sounds like you really like it and you'll regret it. The grass isn't always greener with other bows.
That being said, I always enjoyed buying/selling/trading different bows and I'm sure you will too
That is the same advice I got from the guy who gave it to me. Never let go of your first bow.
I've shot a few factory made bows and honestly, the smoothest drawing bow I have shot yet was a selfbow that I made recently even though it was extremely slow (Came out underweight and the limb design was poor).....
I feel as though within 25 yards I could shoot a tree branch that is still green and unseasoned and still kill game with it as long as it had adequate fletching.
That being said my main problem with most of the factory made bows being made is that they are designed for high performance at low poundage which means recurves that are touchy and longbows with lot's of reflex/deflex that feel stacky early on in the draw and are not much of a joy to shoot.
Some mentioned the Samick Sage and samick Journey and I have shot both of these bows with arrows ranging in the 9-10gpp area and they are both extremely slow and are very touchy and like most recurves feel very stacky due to their high preload which has to do with how much energy they store at brace.
They were also both very noisy even with string silencers and dampeners and a high brace height.
The best factory bow I have shot yet has been a Samick Sage Longbow, very forgiving and very fast. Faster than the Journey or Sage Recurve using even heavier arrows with the Sage Longbow.
Just my $0.02
While stationed in Yuma AZ from late 97 until mid 2000 I had the opportunity to shoot a lot of 3D matches. It seemed there was a shoot every weekend if you weren't afraid to drive a few hours. It always made me chuckle when some guy would wait for the crowd to get big and then pull out his very expensive custom. The more they spent the more they wanted you to notice. Some of these guys shot pretty well, others not so much but they talked a big game. I was shooting a #45 65 Kodiac I picked up years earlier for next to nothing (gave it to my nephew) and had a lot of fun with it. I always tried to pair up with one of the show off guys, after the first few targets the found something they had to do I didn't see them the rest of the shoot.
You have a fantatic bow. It was made by some of the most skilled American craftsman ever. Guys that took pride in their work. Never get rid of it. Finding one better will be tough.
I like old stuff, my go to deer rifle for the Michigan woods is a waffle top Marlin 336 in 35Rem. Made when men gave a crap about what they were making.
Done ranting. Shoot what ever makes you happy.
T4
Not my experience at all with the Sage or Journey. The Sage stacks a bit at the end of my draw (31"), I don't feel the Journey stack at all. I'll check on my digital scale when I think of it to be sure.
Haven't checked the speed on a chrony (no idea where mine even is...haven't used it in a long time), but they aren't slow, or unforgiving.
I haven't shot one with the factory string though. That could be the difference. I'm sure it's at least part of it.
T4, I've done that with my Journey. Shot one tournament with a guy who wasn't trying to be flashy, he's just serious about shooting--he had a high-dollar target rig. He beat me, but only by a few points. I've won two long distance novelty shoots at the KY Tradfest with my Journey, killed a deer with it, and killed my biggest stingray to date (approximately 100#) along with lots of other big fish.
What are the vital numbers on your Thunderbird?
This is what it has on the riser:
62"
T-2-539
AMO
45x#
That should be a pretty sweet shooting bow. Even if and when you might get another bow, hang onto that one.
QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
Not my experience at all with the Sage or Journey. The Sage stacks a bit at the end of my draw (31"), I don't feel the Journey stack at all. I'll check on my digital scale when I think of it to be sure.
Haven't checked the speed on a chrony (no idea where mine even is...haven't used it in a long time), but they aren't slow, or unforgiving.
I haven't shot one with the factory string though. That could be the difference. I'm sure it's at least part of it.
Well I never said they stack, they just *feel stacky* because recurves and bows with refelx/deflex have a high preload which makes the early draw more strenuous compared to say a bow with no reflex/deflex or has some string follow which are buttery smooth early on in the draw.
By unforgiving I meant that the limb tips can easily be torqued. When I first shot a sage that I later sold I could not figure out why the string kept leaving the string groove.
It was a very hit or miss bow with me. I'd have day's where I shot great with it and day's where it was all over the place due to the limbs being easily torqued.
This is just my personal experience with the bow and I know some people that love the sage so to each their own!
I've had expensive recurves where the limb tips torqued, and the string kept leaving the grooves. I could bend the limb tips back into alignment, but after a while it went out of alignment again. Eventually the limb tips weakened to the extent that the bow would unstring itself at full draw. That was the end of that bow! I've had other recurves, like the first Black Widow I bought in the early 90's, where the limb tips have never torqued. It is as aligned now as it was the day I bought it.
I think there are inherent weaknesses in wood that can cause one side or the other of a recurve to have less strength, and be susceptible to limb twist. Two bows can be constructed identically out of the same wood, but different pieces, and one will be susceptible to limb twist while the other one won't. I don't think there is enough torqueing force on a r/d longbow for this to be a problem. If you find a recurve where his doesn't happen in the first year, I think you are good to go for the life of the bow. My experience is that 1 out of 15-20 recurves will have a problem with limb twist, but I really haven't owned enough recurves (yet, I'm working on it) to make that statement with any confidence.
To me, the extra draw weight at the beginning of the draw is free power. I have to get out to full draw anyway; why not store as much energy as possible in the early part of the draw, when it is still relatively easy to pull the bow?
Welcome to the Gang...as it happens the Wing Thunderbird is a fine bow. Maybe one of the best production bows ever made in fact.
If it fits you then stick with it. Make time to attend some 3D shoots and try out a bunch of bows. They all have a different feel to them but the real question is what fits YOU the best and feels most comfortable for YOU to shoot.
Don't be surprised if it continues to be the Wing even after you have shot a bunch of custom bows
QuoteOriginally posted by McDave:
I've had expensive recurves where the limb tips torqued, and the string kept leaving the grooves. I could bend the limb tips back into alignment, but after a while it went out of alignment again. Eventually the limb tips weakened to the extent that the bow would unstring itself at full draw. That was the end of that bow! I've had other recurves, like the first Black Widow I bought in the early 90's, where the limb tips have never torqued. It is as aligned now as it was the day I bought it.
I think there are inherent weaknesses in wood that can cause one side or the other of a recurve to have less strength, and be susceptible to limb twist. Two bows can be constructed identically out of the same wood, but different pieces, and one will be susceptible to limb twist while the other one won't. I don't think there is enough torqueing force on a r/d longbow for this to be a problem. If you find a recurve where his doesn't happen in the first year, I think you are good to go for the life of the bow. My experience is that 1 out of 15-20 recurves will have a problem with limb twist, but I really haven't owned enough recurves (yet, I'm working on it) to make that statement with any confidence.
To me, the extra draw weight at the beginning of the draw is free power. I have to get out to full draw anyway; why not store as much energy as possible in the early part of the draw, when it is still relatively easy to pull the bow?
Well by torque besides the string leaving the groove, if you grab a hold of the very tip of a recurve and can twist it clockwise or counter clockwise than it's easy to torque the shot.
I'm not trying to start an argument with you brother but the earliest part of the draw is actually the hardest on your body (your shoulder joints in particular) because of the position of your arms and because you are not in as strong of a position as you would be in nearing full draw.
This is why a lot of compound archers end up with bad shoulder injuries.
If you don't believe me take two bows that add up to a draw weight that is very heavy for you and try to draw them back.
You should notice that you are weakest in the early to mid draw and gradually become stronger once you are over that mid way point in the draw cycle and are really engaging your back muscles.
This is also the reason why I think that you see some guys shooting 70+ pound longbows up to 120 pounds or so yet hardly ever hear of people shooting 90+ pound recurves.
Yes, I guess I should have made a distinction between torquing the shot and twisting the limbs. Because of the ease of moving the limb tips, it is easier to torque a shot on a recurve by than on a longbow, whether straight limbed or r/d. Not torquing the shot is just one more thing that one has to learn in shooting the recurve, easier than some things, harder than others. Occasional torquing of the string or bow won't ruin a recurve, although it will ruin that particular shot.
When I wrote of torquing the shot in my post above, I meant shooting a recurve with limbs that are inherently out of balance, so that every shot is torqued, with or without the shooter's help. The continuous torquing of each shot eventually weakens the limbs so they will unstring at full draw. You can straighten the limbs so they look in alignment at brace height, but they will bend to the side as you draw the bow.
I didn't know that about the additional effort required to draw a bow near brace height as compared with near full draw. I guess since I've always drawn bows with higher tension in the beginning of the draw, it just seems normal to me, and when I draw a bow without that additional tension, it just seems weak to me. I've never been fond of really heavy weight bows, and fortunately my shoulders are still hanging in there.
Enjoy your bow and probably if you stick(ha!) with it for a few years, you will get the bug to try a custom bow. It's sort of like.....a Chevy will get you to work but a BMW has a lot more going on. Custom bows have different limb and riser designs, woods, grips, lengths, cores etc, and each of those things influences the feel of the bow. There is no perfect bow (except the one you are shooting at any given moment) but you may find that you prefer a narrower or fuller grip, for example, and a custom bow is the way to get what you want.
QuoteOriginally posted by McDave:
Yes, I guess I should have made a distinction between torquing the shot and twisting the limbs. Because of the ease of moving the limb tips, it is easier to torque a shot on a recurve by than on a longbow, whether straight limbed or r/d. Not torquing the shot is just one more thing that one has to learn in shooting the recurve, easier than some things, harder than others. Occasional torquing of the string or bow won't ruin a recurve, although it will ruin that particular shot.
When I wrote of torquing the shot in my post above, I meant shooting a recurve with limbs that are inherently out of balance, so that every shot is torqued, with or without the shooter's help. The continuous torquing of each shot eventually weakens the limbs so they will unstring at full draw. You can straighten the limbs so they look in alignment at brace height, but they will bend to the side as you draw the bow.
I didn't know that about the additional effort required to draw a bow near brace height as compared with near full draw. I guess since I've always drawn bows with higher tension in the beginning of the draw, it just seems normal to me, and when I draw a bow without that additional tension, it just seems weak to me. I've never been fond of really heavy weight bows, and fortunately my shoulders are still hanging in there.
Ahh I see there was just some confusion about what you meant. I have only had experience with my recurve's throwing a shot off when I over gripped the bow.
Oddly enough the recurve that I currently have (Samick Journey) had a twisted limb from not being used and put in the corner of a room sitting there for months and the top limb became twisted.
I just made a flemish twist string for it and after replacing the endless loop string that was on it with a flemish twist string the limb twist is 100% completely gone.....very odd and interesting.
As for limb design and no preoload vs little preoload and where the bow builds up most in draw weight I think it's personal preference.
I've come to learn that I really enjoy shooting a bow that feels buttery smooth in the early to mid draw and only builds up the weight gradually towards the end of my draw in which I feel the strongest.
But I do understand that some people love a heavy preload and a soft back end. So to each their own my friend :archer:
Quote
Oddly enough the recurve that I currently have (Samick Journey) had a twisted limb from not being used and put in the corner of a room sitting there for months and the top limb became twisted.
I just made a flemish twist string for it and after replacing the endless loop string that was on it with a flemish twist string the limb twist is 100% completely gone.....very odd and interesting.
Possibly the opposite of what I was talking about. Some bows may have an propensity to twist, due to an inherent weakness on one side or the other of a limb. Perhaps a bow that is well balanced on each side of the limbs may have a propensity to return to proper alignment once the force is removed that caused it to twist. Sort of like mangled feathers held in steam will more or less return to their original shape.
Howard Hill once made the statement that he didn't feel like he was a good enough archer to shoot recurves. Other than false modesty, perhaps he got hold of a recurve with inherent instability in the limbs. It is a weird feeling to look down the string on a bow that appears to be in alignment, and then shoot it and have the arrows go all over the place. It wasn't until the bow unstrung itself at full draw that I began to realize what was going on. Didn't make me hate recurves; just a quirk to watch out for. Have spotted the same thing on two other recurves (not mine) since then.
The string with the Samicks is the first thing I would update.