Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Learner on February 16, 2017, 08:03:00 AM
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Questions for those who have hunted with both wood and carbon arrows:
I've just started shooting 11/32 wood shafts. I shoot into a Block Vault target.
I love them, but they feel like telephone poles compared to my GT Traditional carbons. They are noticeably thicker than the carbons.
Also, since they are lacquered wood, they are not as "slick" as carbon.
This got me to thinking: when hunting, will you get as deep a penetration with woodies as with carbons? And will you get as many complete pass throughs?
And do you use specific finishes or treatments on wood arrows to maximize slickness?
Thank you,
Frank
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Don't sweat it. Your 45# bow and cedar arrows have killed everything in north America including moose long before skinny carbon ever came out. Make sure your arrows fly straight, use a quality 2 blade head and go hunt. Hit them in the cage and you will be looking for your arrow on the other side of the animal.
Unless you plan to hunt dangerous African game.
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2x
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I disagree. I never got good penetration using 23/64" wood shafts. I shot them with black diamond delta heads out of bows 60-65 draw weight. Almost never got a pass through. I now use carbons with single bevel broadheads and a high performance 55# hybrid longbow. I get complete pass throughs on most animals. Wood arrows are wider diameter and generate a lot more friction passing through an object, both factors impede penetration.
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I've had pass throughs with 11/32 POC and a 145 zwickeys 2 blade from a 46# bow and I've had pass throughs with carbon and 250+ up front from a 50# bow . And vice versa.
It all boils down to shot placement and a sharp sharp sharp broadhead .
Animals supply thier own lubricant.
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You can get tapered woodies if you are worried about shaft drag. Wood arrows will get the job done.
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I hunted with wood for nearly50 years with no problems. Pass throughs are a function of where you hit the critter. A hit on the offside leg often prevents a total pass through.
I now tend to hunt with front loaded skinny carbons, particularly for bigger critters like elk. They do penetrate better (at least as much because of the front loading as the shaft diameter) but on deer size critters, it really makes no difference.
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Wood will get the job done. I wouldn't sweat it. JMO
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I've gotten more pass thrus with carbon but I've killed just as many with wood. I like wood arrows. If they fly straight and you have a sharp head you did you part. I wouldn't worry about penetration. They will witk
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Pair a good woody with a proper broadhead and it will work great on any thing a carbon will. Targets are much denser than animals and penetration is different.
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Carbons will out penetrate wood for the simple fact that the arrow retains more energy with carbons.
If you look at the high speed camera footage of the shot the carbon will recover much quicker from paradox with much less oscillation than wood and then when the arrow hits the target the carbon will have much less vibration/oscillation than the wood thereby putting more energy into penetrating.
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All things being equal carbons will penetrate better but not to the point that I'd be concerned with, plus when it comes to hunting when are all things ever equal? Shoot the woodies and don't lose sleep.
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I have never bought into the whole "drag" thing in regards to penetration on animals. I have also never bought into the skinny arrow penetrating better (on animals) With that broad head opening up the hide and whatever is behind it i just cant see how shaft drag (in an animal) is a thing. Just my personal opinion.
What is an absolute fact though is that with that setup if you can put your arrows where it counts it will do the job every single time, on most common game like deer and turkeys.
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What Mint said X2...
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Riddle me this, if both wood, carbon, and aluminium pass the through an animal which one penetrated better.
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Well tuned is the key! That, and scary sharp broadheads and the ability to put the arrow in the correct spot.
Bisch
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You are cutting a path through a mostly fluid deer. Carbons do straighten out quicker (recover form paradox) than woods but both are straight by the time they reach the deer.
In all likelihood the woods weigh more so will add momentum
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A tuned wood arrow will pass thru a deer so quick you'll think you missed....
Until you see blood everywhere and that wooden arrow sticking in the ground...
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I refuse to hunt with carbon arrows. In my opinion wood arrows are more traditional..
:wavey:
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Unless you are shooting 350+ lb pigs, bison or mud caked bull elk. Don't think about it. Just make sure the arrow has a real sharp point and flys straight. Go hunt and be happy.
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Originally posted by Ulysseys:
All things being equal carbons will penetrate better but not to the point that I'd be concerned with, plus when it comes to hunting when are all things ever equal? Shoot the woodies and don't lose sleep.
I think Ulysseys covered it best.
I have shot quite a few northern-sized whitetails with both 11/32 and 23/64 wood arrows out of upper 50 to lower 60# bows. Many pass thrus or arrow pretty much hanging out the other side.
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Originally posted by Wheels2:
Carbons do straighten out quicker (recover form paradox) than woods but both are straight by the time they reach the deer.
Straightening out more quickly, as relevant to the OP's question, has nothing to do with how straight they are entering an animal. An arrow that straightens quickly from the bow spends less energy trying to straighten itself out...so it's a statement of retained energy capability. All other things equal, an arrow that straightens more quickly should retain more energy to be spent on penetration.
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Originally posted by Mint:
Carbons will out penetrate wood for the simple fact that the arrow retains more energy with carbons.
If you look at the high speed camera footage of the shot the carbon will recover much quicker from paradox with much less oscillation than wood and then when the arrow hits the target the carbon will have much less vibration/oscillation than the wood thereby putting more energy into penetrating.
Thank you all for sharing your wisdom and experiences with regards to my question. Very helpful!
I do find the point made by Mint here to be quite interesting. Behind my Block Vault I have a sheet of 1/2" plywood. (I aim close to the edge of my target of my target at times to make use of the entire target face, so the plywood saves my basement.)
When I have a wild shot, most times it will pierce the plywood if I am shooting my carbons. But my 11/32 woodies (at about 510 gr), have always bounced off (except for one shot which may have hit a pre-existing hole).
So Mint's comment here makes sense in light of my experience: that upon impact the carbon arrow will vibrate much less, providing more energy to be retained for penetration, even though the woodies are much heavier.
I have some GT "Fact" internal weights on order. Once I bring one of my carbons up to 500 gr, I'll do some penetration tests, both with my target and with plywood.
All that being said, it's good to hear that a game animal provides enough natural "lubrication" to allow easy pass through with even tyick woodies.
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Like some of the others, I believe that on average, carbon penetrates better. However, Ive yet to NOT find my broadhead out the backside of a deer with 11/32 woods. In the end, once a hole is punched on the opposite side, what difference does it really make? You might save some arrows on pass through hits, but ive always been very ready to trade an arrow for the animal anyway.
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Shoot a tuned arrow with a razor sharp cut on contact head, and put it in the boiler room of your intended target. You will have a dead deer at the end of the blood trail.
I have 2 holes in whatever I have shot over the years, be it by wood, carbon or aluminum.
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Tuning is they key. Put a well tuned woodie, carbon or amuminum arrow in the right spot and you will have no worries.
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Originally posted by Bisch:
Well tuned is the key! That, and scary sharp broadheads and the ability to put the arrow in the correct spot.
Bisch
I'm going to second what Bisch and LF have stated: tuning trumps everything else for arrow performance. A straight flying arrow will out penetrate even a slightly off flying arrow every time. I suspect that carbons do have some advantage as they are stiffer and seem to recover quicker in hi speed video, but as a wood shooter, I have zero actual experience with carbons. Shaft diameter does make a difference with targets that stop the arrow with friction, but I see no difference with 5/16, 11/32 and 23/64 with broadheads on game.
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Some of you really make this game/sport a lot harder then it really is. Wood arrows with properly sharpened broadheads will get the job done eveytime as long as you do your part.
Tracy
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Originally posted by K.S.TRAPPER:
Some of you really make this game/sport a lot harder then it really is. Wood arrows with properly sharpened broadheads will get the job done eveytime as long as you do your part.
Tracy
Amen!
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I agree both work and get the job but in my experience as well as some killers I know...On a challenging critter like a big boar the wood will not penetrate like the carbon. On your normal size critters probably no problem. RC
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All of the above is great information. The reason I use carbon arrows is I have the hardest time tuning a wood arrow getting every thing straight and spinning true. Ones you get the formula for a carbon arrow it is much easer to repeat. Like said above put the arrow where it needs to go with a sharp broadhead and you are good to go.
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Originally posted by K.S.TRAPPER:
Some of you really make this game/sport a lot harder then it really is. Wood arrows with properly sharpened broadheads will get the job done eveytime as long as you do your part.
Tracy
I agree. If wooden arrows can penetrate steel armor (from selfbows none the less) they sure as heck can penetrate through any animal on this earth.
Carbon might perform slightly better but at the cost of an arrow potentially breaking off in your game and ruining a portion of the meat. Or carbon blowing up in your hand due to a damaged arrow.
A lot of us also shoot traditional/primitive to get away from the high tech world. Carbon arrows and compounds go hand in hand and is another reason why I don't like them.
Honestly, I even think that arrow tune is slightly over rated (still important though). If you put 4" up to 6" feathers on your arrows they will fly pretty damn straight out of anything regardless of their tune or at least this has been my experience.
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How many people replying on this thread have shot a heavy animal with both arrows? I don`t mean a deer,they are made purty lite. You can claim carbons are not "trad" I can see that line of thinking but don`t doubt the ability to penetrate they have.A deers chest is not wide at all. 8" penetration will get it done. On a big hog that will get you one lung.
From shooting big hogs with low poundage bows MYSELF I can tell you from experience the wood will not penetrate like a carbon. My bows are tuned and I shoot 5.5 feathers. I also shoot 550 grain plus arrows at big pigs.
I hear about peoples experience with broadheads , arrows and poundage and they will talk about "a" animal they took that it worked out on. worked great. I can tell you I have killed and been in the trailing of other hunters maybe 500 animals taken with a stickbow. A big pig is a whole nuther animal. When you go up in poundage its different but 55 and less ,arrow weight and material matters on big stuff.
I have killed well over a 100 deer and pigs probably more since switching to carbon and never had any meat ruined. Shooting 35/55 and 15/35 carbons they will bend a whole lot before breaking.
Yesterday at Fort stewart I shot a 175 lb boar with a 52@27 Dave Johnson Hill style bow with a 590 grain arrow. Shooting a grizzly broadhead and got a complete pass through. The last few weeks a friend of mine shot 3 different big boars with a well tuned setup with wood arrows and got less than 4" penetration on all the unrecovered hogs. He is a great shot and put the arrow in the center of the ribs forward. I expect he has killed over 150 deer and pigs with a bow or near that.When after big pigs he has a carbon in the quiver now. He is a wood arrow fanatic and it pains him to agree with me.lol He killed a big hog after those three he recovered with a carbon and got the broadhead to the other side of the pig with a 45 lb bow.
shoot what you want but know the facts. RC
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Originally posted by K.S.TRAPPER:
Some of you really make this game/sport a lot harder then it really is. Wood arrows with properly sharpened broadheads will get the job done eveytime as long as you do your part.
Tracy
Isn't that the truth.. I think a big problem is some guys have no confidence in the gear they are using. Last time I checked Indians never had a Carbon arrow..
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RC, my friends and I have experienced the same thing with hogs. With wood I wasn't getting pass throughs on them but once I switched to carbons I noticed a difference. Now I didn't know if it was the front loading of the carbons that helped or just the carbon arrow but penetration increased. I think with the shield the wood and aluminum lose some penetration because of the vibration when hitting a hard service.
In the end shoot what you want, I was just trying to answer a question for a fellow tradganger.
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RC how do you know you only got 4" of penetration on the unrecovered hogs.
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I can't speak for RC, but I'm assuming his friend could see the arrow didn't penetrate into the vitals. Arrow may have been mostly hanging out as the hogs ran off. The 4" of penetration is probably a guesstimate.
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My Friend shot the pigs at 10-15 yards. He recovered his arrow and used it to measure what was in his quiver. I don`t want to argue it is a mute point. shoot what you want. I only give first hand experience or what I know from close friends that are good at killing stuff.Good day.RC
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I have no proof of this except from shooting whitetail deer. I used to shoot wood and still love em. My bro was shooting same weight bow and having complete pass thru. I was not, so switched to carbons and after finding the right arrow, shoot thru em a lot.
The reason I figure behind this was I get quite close to the deer I shoot. The woodies were getting as much or more penetration at 18 yards as at 5. They might have had enuff time to get recovered..I think the carbon recovers fast enuff that a close shot will be pretty much straightened out compared to a wood at same short range.
My .02 and that's exactly what it's worth. Carry on and enjoy yourself whether you shoot carbon, cane or wood!!
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I'm a diehard wood arrow guy, but I'm not too proud to admit that I believe carbons will get better penetration than my woods. They're smaller diameter and slicker surface than woods. Plus RC has more experience killing stuff, especially hogs, than 99% of guys here. I would believe in his real world experiences shooting critters
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I've made, love, and shot a lot of deer with wood arrows. That said, I've shot a lot with carbon as well. I will only speak for my own 40+ years of experience and say the same weight shaft, same broadhead, both tuned to fly right, the carbon will out penetrate the wood. Will it make a difference in your hunting situation? That's up to you.
I'll still continue to use wood on occasion for deer but for hogs you should listen to RC. I don't know of anyone on here who could claim to have shot more hogs (and probably more deer) than Robert Carter.
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Originally posted by RC:
How many people replying on this thread have shot a heavy animal with both arrows? I don`t mean a deer,they are made purty lite. You can claim carbons are not "trad" I can see that line of thinking but don`t doubt the ability to penetrate they have.A deers chest is not wide at all. 8" penetration will get it done. On a big hog that will get you one lung.
From shooting big hogs with low poundage bows MYSELF I can tell you from experience the wood will not penetrate like a carbon. My bows are tuned and I shoot 5.5 feathers. I also shoot 550 grain plus arrows at big pigs.
I hear about peoples experience with broadheads , arrows and poundage and they will talk about "a" animal they took that it worked out on. worked great. I can tell you I have killed and been in the trailing of other hunters maybe 500 animals taken with a stickbow. A big pig is a whole nuther animal. When you go up in poundage its different but 55 and less ,arrow weight and material matters on big stuff.
I have killed well over a 100 deer and pigs probably more since switching to carbon and never had any meat ruined. Shooting 35/55 and 15/35 carbons they will bend a whole lot before breaking.
Yesterday at Fort stewart I shot a 175 lb boar with a 52@27 Dave Johnson Hill style bow with a 590 grain arrow. Shooting a grizzly broadhead and got a complete pass through. The last few weeks a friend of mine shot 3 different big boars with a well tuned setup with wood arrows and got less than 4" penetration on all the unrecovered hogs. He is a great shot and put the arrow in the center of the ribs forward. I expect he has killed over 150 deer and pigs with a bow or near that.When after big pigs he has a carbon in the quiver now. He is a wood arrow fanatic and it pains him to agree with me.lol He killed a big hog after those three he recovered with a carbon and got the broadhead to the other side of the pig with a 45 lb bow.
shoot what you want but know the facts. RC
This is factual information. Same results I experienced as well. And if you contact bone it is amplified.
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Wow, I think that I may have unintentionally started a civil war! :knothead:
But seriously, as a newbie, I'm very grateful for the replies from both sides of the issue.
:thumbsup:
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In my refrigerator and freezer is I don't know how many pounds of sausage and chops and other cuts of Texas hogs. All shot by a friend that goes to Texas every winter and shoots three with wood arrows and aluminum arrows that i made for him and his 47 at 27 longbow. I asked him about his penetration. He said the 12 that he has gotten so far have been either pass throughs or the arrow sticking out both sides. All shot with Eskimos and Grizzly 125 grain broadheads. Shot timing and shot placement may be on his side, he is very good at both.
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A skinny carbon arrow will out penetrate wood of the same weight, speed, and distance by a longshot. I don't think it is purely a matter of diameter, recovery, or energy return but I think it is all of these put together.
That being said, unless you were hunting keep Buffalo or giant hogs (which are really really tough to get penetration on) I'd shoot whatever feels best to you.
Me: I love my carbons!
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"The last few weeks a friend of mine shot 3 different big boars with a well tuned setup with wood arrows and got less than 4" penetration on all the unrecovered hogs."
I was wondering, how did you guys figure out the wood arrows only got 4" penetration, if they went unrecovered?
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I see, thanks for your quick response.RC, I went back and found where you already stated how you knew. To Be honest, I had skipped through some of the arguments and didnt see it. I was seriously wanting to know, and not trying to be annoying. I find your accounts interesting.
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I respect RC opinion very much and listen when he posts, he never fails to post fine pictures of great animals and is well proven on here for many years. I would share a camp with the man anytime anywhere.
My opinions and post earlier are based on elk size animals and down with wood arrows but no pigs, I've had no problems with complete pass throughs or close to it on all of them. Many of the arrows have harvested more then one animal many times out of my longbows.
Now pigs, theve never really interested me that much but my brothers place in NE Texas is getting hit pretty hard the last couple years by them and I will be going down on a fishing trip soon and plan on trying to find some to shoot at with my wood arrows so we will see. I shot carbons out of a recurve for a while during rehabilation of a rebuilt shoulder but the just never felt right so I went back to wood as soon as I could. Never ever regretted it not once.
Tracy
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No. Wood does not penetrate as well as carbon. That's the only thing that I find that wood doesn't have going for it. I love wood arrows. That's all I've shot and hunted with for the past six or seven years. All else being equal- weight, tune, broadhead, and bow poundage- carbon will out-penetrate wood. I admit it, I HATE to, but I admit it.
I'm the person RC's talking about, pull up a chair.
My younger brother has a hog problem on his farm. Given permission to hunt them after deer season closed, I went after them. I HAVE NEVER HAD ANY PENETRATION PROBLEMS WITH WOOD ARROWS ON DEER AND SMALLER(<150LB.)PIGS. I've killed several of both. My arrows are always over 550gr.from bows 45-52lbs. Broadheads vary-I like woodsmans and two-blade deltas.
Day one- I crept in on two big boars fighting over a hot sow. I was within 10 yards of both. As the smaller of the two turned broadside, I let him have it. My arrow struck him in the side about two ribs back and He simply grunted loudly and WALKED OFF. I heard my arrow break as he hit the swamp. I heard him fighting again five minutes later as I was standing there holding 25" of a 29" arrow. I knew better than to even look for him, I did no real damage. Two days later I was in a creek bottom, same situation. A fight was happening and I got the wind right and crept over to it. At no more than 15 yards A big boar was standing on the side of the creek bank and I drew and hit him-hard, right behind his shoulder-midline of his body.That shield stopped my arrow cold. It's like shooting through the side-wall of a large tractor tire or something. Anyway, the pig made a tight circle and trotted off, breaking my arrow as he left. Again, I was left with most of my arrow and a non-lethal arrow. That happened one more time before I got tired of creeping to within spitting distance of these big hogs and making a good shot and having nothing to show for it. So- I changed up a little bit. I went home and tuned my 45# recurve to shoot a 3555 gt blem with 300gr. in the front. I had them shooting like bullets out of that recurve. I went back to the farm the following Friday evening and within 30 minutes a got on a pretty nice stinky old boar. As he came up out of the thicket and into the pine trees I shot him at twelve yards or so, right in the ribs behind the shoulder. The carbon arrow dug in to the fletchings and the Grizzly broadhead stuck out the far side shoulder a pretty good ways. He died in a creek 75 yards away. Nothing changed about the whole situation except for the arrow. And the boar was just a tad smaller than the previous ones. I love my wooden arrows, but the fact is that carbon just penetrates better. And RC is right, and I don't like to admit it. LOL. So, shoot your wooden arrows and have fun, man. They will serve you well and there's nothing not to like about them. People say "wooden arrows will kill anything on this continent", and that is true. Carbons just do a better job on bigger boars that have that thick, nasty shield. And that, my friends, is what happened.
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Awesome, thanks for sharing!
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OK I have never shot carbons, probably never will. I have had a wood arrow go in one side and exit the other side. Ive seen countless posts on archery forums of guys defending wood arrows and explaining how they had full penetration on whatever critter they had shot. First, I refuse to agree that a fraction of an inch in diameter is going to keep an arrow from penetrating and animal with mostly soft tissues, if you avoid the heavy bones and have a sharp head. Second, the finish on an arrow is only going to make a difference when you shoot one of the high-compression targets or very dense 3D targets. Remember, most targets these days are designed to stop very high speed arrows, not traditional arrows. Sand bags are not the same either, nor is ballistic gel. Try them both in a hay bale. Much easier arrow removal and no target burn. A deer's innards just do not grab and hold an arrow shaft like a foam target does. As said above, 45 pound bows and cedar arrows have been killing stuff for decades or more. Don't sweat it.
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Sounds more like EFOC versus 15% FOC on the hogs.
In combination with a I believe small difference in diameter at least for the regular 5/16" carbon arrow.
I bet a tail tapered and compressed from 11/32" to 5/16" Sitka Spruce with 300 grain Tuffhead tuned to the bow would deliver almost identical results.
Or a light stiff bamboo shaft with heavy broadhead would do the same.
I think it has much more to do with FOC (which is super easy to achieve with carbons).
If the ferule of the broadheads is larger than the diameter of the shaft, there will be much less friction period.
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No matter what the shaft that is pushing it, I find it very difficult to measure the penetration of a three to one broadhead. Quite often finding it after shooting an animal is even more difficult. Getting the arrow directly behind the head and having a head that tracks straight through at the hit, will enhance penetration. I have seen some carbons act very finicky with the power level variations, i have some that will only shoot out of one bow, while other bows that are very close, being some with a little less cast and others with more cast, they do not like at all. While at the same time I have wood arrows that are spot on with all of the above bows. it coud be a draw length factor or a Hill style longbow thing, but the recurve that I got them for did not like them what ever I did. Last year I helped a kid tune his carbons, he showed up with a tool box full of things to try. It took a bit of doing, but when all was done, he found that he hated full length arrows. His shooting development was with near net bop arrows.
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Originally posted by RC:
How many people replying on this thread have shot a heavy animal with both arrows? I don`t mean a deer,they are made purty lite. You can claim carbons are not "trad" I can see that line of thinking but don`t doubt the ability to penetrate they have.A deers chest is not wide at all. 8" penetration will get it done. On a big hog that will get you one lung.
From shooting big hogs with low poundage bows MYSELF I can tell you from experience the wood will not penetrate like a carbon. My bows are tuned and I shoot 5.5 feathers. I also shoot 550 grain plus arrows at big pigs.
I hear about peoples experience with broadheads , arrows and poundage and they will talk about "a" animal they took that it worked out on. worked great. I can tell you I have killed and been in the trailing of other hunters maybe 500 animals taken with a stickbow. A big pig is a whole nuther animal. When you go up in poundage its different but 55 and less ,arrow weight and material matters on big stuff.
I have killed well over a 100 deer and pigs probably more since switching to carbon and never had any meat ruined. Shooting 35/55 and 15/35 carbons they will bend a whole lot before breaking.
Yesterday at Fort stewart I shot a 175 lb boar with a 52@27 Dave Johnson Hill style bow with a 590 grain arrow. Shooting a grizzly broadhead and got a complete pass through. The last few weeks a friend of mine shot 3 different big boars with a well tuned setup with wood arrows and got less than 4" penetration on all the unrecovered hogs. He is a great shot and put the arrow in the center of the ribs forward. I expect he has killed over 150 deer and pigs with a bow or near that.When after big pigs he has a carbon in the quiver now. He is a wood arrow fanatic and it pains him to agree with me.lol He killed a big hog after those three he recovered with a carbon and got the broadhead to the other side of the pig with a 45 lb bow.
shoot what you want but know the facts. RC
I can see where RC's results make sense. The higher FOC's generally used with carbons help penetration, but I suspect the big difference is penetration through the shield on a big boar. That shield is hard and tough and is going to add considerable drag and the carbons smaller diameter and rigidity would be a big asset. I've killed one large boar with a wood arrow and a 200 gr Grizzly Instinct 3-blade head. Just past broadside, penetration was through the shield and to the far side, but did not exit. Bow was a Toelke Whip, 50 @ 26; arrow was Doug Fir about 600 gr.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Fletcher610/20150313_132316.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Fletcher610/media/20150313_132316.jpg.html)
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Hill spent considerable time working out the needs to shoot through the shield, power plus weight certainly, but the broadhead choice is a big part of that. Two blade versus three, 3 to 1 versus 2 to 1. I would bet the type of edge put on the head can make a difference as well. Not all substances cut the same.
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I believe the difference in penetrating has more to do with the carbon retaining more energy since it recovers so quick out of paradox and does not vibrate upon hitting the shield. I wish I could find the high speed camera footage comparing a carbon, wood and aluminum arrow with paradox and upon impact. The difference between the carbon compared to the aluminum and wood was striking to me.
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Dead is dead. I use GT 3555 trad carbons a have re-used kill arrows to shot again.
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Mint, I've seen that video also and I've spent the last hour trying to find it- I haven't been successful. It's a very interesting video and shows in great detail how all three arrow materials react when striking a target.
For those gentlemen who think that wood will penetrate as well as carbon, especially on larger hogs-- out of curiosity- how many 200# boars have you killed with a wooden arrow?
My point is this, I've seen an Apache helicopter. I've even seen them perform in combat. But if I were asked how to fly one of them I couldn't begin to tell you, because I have no experience flying them. So my answer would be purely second-hand information and speculation. I certainly mean no disrespect and I do not wish to sound argumentative. I love my wooden arrows, but carbon wins in the penetration department. That, I do know.
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Originally posted by catman1:
Dead is dead. I use GT 3555 trad carbons a have re-used kill arrows to shot again.
True! I used the same arrow and broad head on four deer last year. Last doe was quartering a bit and the head hit offside leg. She broke the shaft but screwed that head on another arrow and took a bobcat with it. I guess carbons work ok..... :)
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Originally posted by kennym:
Originally posted by catman1:
Dead is dead. I use GT 3555 trad carbons a have re-used kill arrows to shot again.
True! I used the same arrow and broad head on four deer last year. Last doe was quartering a bit and the head hit offside leg. She broke the shaft but screwed that head on another arrow and took a bobcat with it. I guess carbons work ok..... :) [/b]
Yea, but I did the same thing almost exactly over a few seasons with the same Dougfir arrow and Ace broadhead. 3 big KS bucks, doe and a turkey till I hit a far leg this year on my buck. I' guess wood works ok too lol! :bigsmyl:
Tracy
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I have only shot a few animals with wood arrows, and have had no problems, but I think there is enough evidence out there to suggest that carbon arrows will out-penetrate wood arrows, all else being equal, on tough targets. Will it matter for most people? Most likely not, but if you haven't tried both on large tough animals like heavily shielded boar, you really can't be expected to understand what happens in that situation. I will defer to Dendy and Robert on this. I have killed a few big hogs, but all of them except one has been using carbons.
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Who wants to shoot those big old boars anyway, the smaller round ones taste better. I just finished some off that was ho with a wood arrow, Yes, a carbon should out penetrate a wood arrow, but still needs to flying straight to get that done. In longbows that are not center shot the carbon arrows seem present more of a flight problem for the local guys here when they do not get full draws. They could be tuning them a bit stiff, I cannot know that for sure. I have never had a penetration problem with arrows myself, but I am not planning on shooting a 200 pound boar either.
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Big hogs get a bad rap. My wife said that the 225# boar that I shot a month ago was the best tasting one that I have shot and not given away. Of course these hogs around here get plenty of corn, acorns, and pecans to eat a large portion of the year.
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I think Dendy's analogy of shooting through a thick shield being like shooting through the sidewall of a tractor tire is about the best analogy that I have heard.
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I think penetration of wood and carbon are insufficient for ethical hunting. I now shoot shafts of pure lead. I get great penetration I just have to adjust abit when shooting running game at over 50 yards.
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:laughing:
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I've never found a difference that mattered with penetration between wood and carbon. I've taken a lot of game with both and had great results.
Durability and straightness are my issues. Wood shafts these days would not even make the cull pile 20 yrs ago. I don't have the time or energy to go through the process of trying to make wood fly like carbon. So I hunt with carbon.
Mike
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Where are you guys getting your wood arrow shafts that they are so out of straightness that it affects your shot negatively? Wow...I hear all this talk and yes aluminum and carbon are man made and straight as (AN ARROW) and perfect nearly every time....but my goodness you give people the idea they are doing themselves and the animals a disservice and wood arrows are destined to look like the arthritic finger of the Evil Queen.
as to the question.....I personally think the penetration issue is null and void if all things are similar...same bow, same arrow weight, same sharpness on broadhead and same shaft diameter. where I see a difference is having nearly same weight arrow with a smaller diameter shaft...all things equal except shaft diameter the skinny one will out penetrate. It has to be equal or very close everywhere else though....
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Targets are specifically designed to stop arrows. Some use friction to stop an arrow and diameter size will show a huge difference here. Animals are not the same so the difference between 5/16 and 11/32 for example will be much less apparent when shooting an animal.
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If one has doubts about penetration, get Grizzlies or Hunter's Heads or Hills. I don't have a problem with crooked wood arrows. Surewoods and Wapiti and Acmes. I keep them bundled straight and they stay straight in the bundles. Before I finish them with Watco Oil, I may see a minor thing here and there, that is easy to fix. Once finished, I check them every so often, but rarely need to do much straightening. I find that a slightly bent wood arrow, when I get my quiver full of shoot away cheap arrows, will fly better and more on target than an aluminum arrow with the same bend. Don't know why that is, don't care, and that's the way it is.
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I shoot and love wood arrows. They're my go to arrow for 90% of my hunting and then it's Easton Axis skinny carbons. As noted above, I'm not a hog hunter so any advice or possible anecdotes I give are pure speculation.
However, I know that when guys like RC and the Wensel's (speaking of their experiences shooting larger African plains game) noting a difference on penetration with skinny carbon's and are recommending them when penetration can be an issue--well, that's some advice I'm going to listen too.
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When did RC go to Africa??? What'd I miss??
I agree overall carbon will out penetrate wood in most instances giving all things being pretty close to equal but when you change bow weights and change broadheads to a degree that is above normal your your results can be misleading.
I'll shoot and hunt 90% with carbons but I also wax them or put black magic Tire wet on them and use a nice wax on my wood arrows.
Shoot what you like and what works best for your lifestyle.
Have Fun!
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Originally posted by wingnut:
I've never found a difference that mattered with penetration between wood and carbon. I've taken a lot of game with both and had great results.
Durability and straightness are my issues. Wood shafts these days would not even make the cull pile 20 yrs ago. I don't have the time or energy to go through the process of trying to make wood fly like carbon. So I hunt with carbon.
Mike
x2
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This is the only hog over 200# that I have shot with a wood arrow, but he wasn't heavily shielded and I was using a bow that was a little over 63# at a little over 29", and was using a 2 blade broadhead. I would suspect that it makes a difference with a less energetic setup on a more heavily shielded boar. I still didn't get two holes, because the broadhead buried in the offside shoulder on this quartering away shot. Pretty typical for larger hogs.
IMG]http://i.imgur.com/nkzMn0e.jpg[/IMG]
(http://i.imgur.com/4NvW5Kj.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/ilduy63.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/f0ZowHb.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/yOEnmDp.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/tYJw6BQ.jpg)
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=135963;p=2
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
When did RC go to Africa??? What'd I miss??
I agree overall carbon will out penetrate wood in most instances giving all things being pretty close to equal but when you change bow weights and change broadheads to a degree that is above normal your your results can be misleading.
I'll shoot and hunt 90% with carbons but I also wax them or put black magic Tire wet on them and use a nice wax on my wood arrows.
Shoot what you like and what works best for your lifestyle.
Have Fun!
Sorry Terry, the Wensel's have stated elsewhere that they use the skinny carbon arrows due to penetration improvements that they noticed when shooting the larger African plains animals. RC didn't say he went to Africa. Bottom line, RC and Wensels have a boat load of experience and when I see a bunch of speculative anecdotes about 'it shouldn't make a difference on a large hog because it's worked for me on white tails.....you just need a sharp broadhead on a straight flying arrow.....' well, if I'm going hog hunting, I'll listen to RC (or your advice).
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Thanks Ray I just wanted to make sure that I hadn't missed a thread or something.