Hey everybody!My name is Robin Cheung,Im a traditional archer and barebow archer,also A bow dealer.I live in China and had been to the states twice.
(My english sucks sorry,I basically learn it by myself)
Last month I and my crew had been to kalamazoo expo,it was an awsome event!So many trad guys gathered here and I was happy about so many folks could share the same spirit and belief!Not to mention the catchy bows with all the bells and whistles!
As soon as we put our feet in here,we began to greet different bowyers and grab a fat bunch of bows from them,everything was perfect until someone told my camera guy to stop filming his products,I was so confused at first and then He said he dont wanna us do knock offs.
That was really hurting my feelings,as I said Im a bow dealer,I sold hundreds of bows and numerous accessories a year on my own in China,and the very most of them were imported from US and Scotland,none of the bows are knock off,now,I was scapegoated for chinese knock offs?Just because Im a Chinese?
I confronted him and told him Im a decent man,Im not that guy play the dirty game who gonna jeopardise your folks livelihoods,and grabbed over $2000 worth of accessories without hesitation and after that I told him we look for long term business and I would never fool u folks around!Finally there was a big smile on his face.Even though,many folks still stared at us with suspicious.
In my opinion,your American folks have stronger personalities and always been forward.We have had good relationships with many famous bowyers but in a few occasions some of them had an idea that our crew gonna copy their stuff one day,its pretty awkward!
Indeed there are culture differences and prejudices among the two countries, I truely wanna work it out somehow,to be honest,Its a shame of being surrounded by hilarious knock offs.LOL
I really enjoyed my stay in the states,your hospitality is a great honor for me,Im very impressed by your original thoughts and independent、tough characters!Not to mention your amazing shooting skill!Even the kids!what an advanced community!Chinese traditional archery circle is also expanding rapidly!
So,folks,plz give me some advises on how to do a better job in this traditional archery business and benefit both sides...
For the record,I would never ever do kock offs!I got a main job which is irrelavent and work 24/7,I really committe myself to this career,I got a strong desire to be someone!
Thx folks!
You have to understand that others from Korea and China have done the same as you were and bowyers saw there products duplicated and sold the very next year.
So it's hard to trust when people have been burned before.
Mike
Robin,
You handle it as well as you could have I believe but as wingnut said others have been burned before.
I think this is one of those instances where good folks can find themselves in a tense situation because of what bad folks have done. Just keep doing it right and it will work out.
Robin, It was a pleasure meeting you and your guys.I hope to see you all again one day. I do not know who asked you about knocking off bows. Thankfully though he could see your true intentions once you explained yourself.
Although we have had knock off issues before. I can say personally that the thought never entered my mind of you or your guys. Reason 1) Strait away you introduced yourself and stated your intent to buy for a customer. You were even in contact with the customer at the time of purchase. Reason 2) This is the main reason! You guys were enjoying the shoot! I saw you all back and forth shooting bows all weekend and just having a good time. It is always great to see folks enjoy themselves. It can be fairly obvious when someone is just enjoying themselves or taking a closer look at a product than they should be.
Here are a couple of suggestions that might make things easier for you next time.
1)If possible you and your guys could speak English to each other about the bows (or whatever you are interested in) when you are near the vendor. That would let him know right off that you have nothing to hide.
2) Do not wear matching shirts with a business name on them.Unless you explain that when you introduce yourself.
Please do not take the question about knock off bows to personally. We like to know where we stand and usually figure a direct question is the fastest way to find that out.
Bill
Bill, you took the words from my mouth! X2
Welcome to Tradgang my friend. Sorry, I have no advise for you. It sounds to me as you handled your situation with grace, well done.
Like many things in life ( look around you) there are many people of many groups. Some are wonderful and a few are... well, not. Those, unfortunately, are the ones that folks hear about and develop issues about. Those issues, then, become issues for that entire group. Right or wrong, that is the way it is everywhere in the world that I have traveled.
Look at ****, in the archery section. Look carefully at bows, broadheads, blunt tips ( yeah judo points), and almost anything else that has been around forever. They are copied, some nearly exactly, and sold for cheap.
In my career ( I am retired now) I ran into this on a much larger scale with big equipment.
You may be ( and I hope it is true) a very wonderful person who wants to do the right thing and make something of himself. I applaud that. In this country, that does not include copying someone else's product without their expressed permission.
Good luck in your endeavors.
ChuckC
I am not so sure it was illegal to film at that public event. How can anyone tell one person not to film and then let 20 others take photo's. Hundred and hundreds of photo's were taken at K-Zoo I am sure.
Sorry for your bad experience with "that" dealer but most would be honored to have their bow recognized, brought back to another country and maybe purchased.
Be yourself, people who do not already trust you soon will. You sound like a pretty good guy to me, very passionate about traditional archery.
You did fine, and I hope you are welcomed in the future as you start to build relationships here.
Good luck, shoot straight! :campfire:
Hey Robin, glad you made to the States for a great traditional archery expo. I watched you shoot most of the 3D shoot. My buddies son Bruce shot in your group I was curious about your buddy vidioing the whole thing. But now I get it. You are a pretty good shot! Anyhow I hope you take all of these fellows words that are responding to heart and stand as a man of your word. Hope to see you again and I will introduce myself.
Take care and good shooting,
Steve Jr
I'll be interested to see your Kalamazoo video when it's edited.
Sounds like an old racist to me. Lots of bigots in the world. Just have to leave them behind and move on with life.
Probably a misogynist too, and ( what were those other things half the population is now being called)...?
Hi Bill,thanks for ur advises!Such brilliant ideas!Its a honor to meet at Kzoo!
I began to shoot 4 year ago and rather enjoy it ever since!Iv participated in many paper target shooting competitions in China and did well...but we have no 3 D shooting at all!(The targets are hard to get and our country is overcrowded with people,no space for that)But we will figure it out someday!
I'd like to see the video too. I've never been to K'zoo. It's kind of funny that I live right here in America and have never been to k'zoo. And they traveled halfway around the world to get there! Proves these guys love Trad bows!
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
You have to understand that others from Korea and China have done the same as you were and bowyers saw there products duplicated and sold the very next year.
So it's hard to trust when people have been burned before.
Mike
Thats what is happenning everyday!Sir I feel terribly sorry about that...
I respect all of your bowyers' efforts and your intellectual properties,many of you make a living from that,I wont jeopardise your careers!
Truely,some chinese bowyers took your original designs as granted which also pissed me off !
QuoteOriginally posted by gvdocholiday:
I'll be interested to see your Kalamazoo video when it's edited.
I'm interested as well. Did you film some of the 3D shoot?
QuoteOriginally posted by Jon Stewart:
I am not so sure it was illegal to film at that public event. How can anyone tell one person not to film and then let 20 others take photo's. Hundred and hundreds of photo's were taken at K-Zoo I am sure.
Sorry for your bad experience with "that" dealer but most would be honored to have their bow recognized, brought back to another country and maybe purchased.
Hey bro,I didn't take it as a bad experiments at all! In fact I would rather folks be forward to me than been conservative. That dealer is my friend now! I bought a lot from him and got many positive feedbacks from china!
To be fair to Robin and his countrymen they are not the first nor will they be the last to copy some other design or creation.
Look around at some of our own American bows and you will see quite a few variations of others original design :saywhat:
And as they say imitations is the greatest form of compliment or something like that.
Not to cause a rift here, but copying of original design is nothing new and will continue to happen.
So has bowyers or inventor of products the best safe guard would be to apply for patent and copy rights.
QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Jr:
Hey Robin, glad you made to the States for a great traditional archery expo. I watched you shoot most of the 3D shoot. My buddies son Bruce shot in your group I was curious about your buddy vidioing the whole thing. But now I get it. You are a pretty good shot! Anyhow I hope you take all of these fellows words that are responding to heart and stand as a man of your word. Hope to see you again and I will introduce myself.
Take care and good shooting,
Steve Jr
I sucked at 3 D shooting,my form was not that bad just lack of practices in 3 d shooting(Its hard to get a proper target!The shipping fee is insane,U guys got a beteer idea?)Bruce is very talented for his age!
Nice to sling arrows with u guys,I wont give it up !
QuoteOriginally posted by Crested Finger:
Sounds like an old racist to me. Lots of bigots in the world. Just have to leave them behind and move on with life.
Its normal people acting on their behalf.Im not trying to collect sympathies here,I just wanna make myself better understood!
Ur American folks are amazing and thats what makes USA a leading country in this world.
QuoteTo be fair to Robin and his countrymen they are not the first nor will they be the last to copy some other design or creation.
Look around at some of our own American bows and you will see quite a few variations of others original design [saywhat]
And as they say imitations is the greatest form of compliment or something like that.
Not to cause a rift here, but copying of original design is nothing new and will continue to happen.
So has bowyers or inventor of products the best safe guard would be to apply for patent and copy rights.
Yep. And it's not just bows.
Several years ago, when I made strings for stores and bowyers (I don't anymore), I got a surprise in the mail from a company I was making strings for. It was a very detailed spec sheet on how they wanted their strings made. Evidently I wasn't the only one they were ordering from.
It only took a glance to see that the sheet was based entirely on MY strings...from the size of the loops to the length of the twist to the length and placement of the serving to the color code I'd come up with for various string lengths--it was mine to a "T".
Wish I'd kept that spec sheet...may still have it lying around somewhere. I never said anything to them, even when they stopped ordering without warning or explanation.
I didn't care that they tried to copy my strings, but it would have been nice to have been asked, or at least given a little bit of recognition for the trouble I went through for them.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jack Hoyt 75:
Robin, what products were you most interested at Kalamazoo? What type of bow do you shoot? I sold a Centaur to a guy in China once, I hear they are popular there.
Just stand by your word and don't do cheap knock offs. Welcome!
I shoot traditional recurves and longbows also barebow(recurve unaided)
The stuff from Kzoo all appealled to me!
Not bluffing,Iv sold hundreds of bows of different brands a year on my own in China,all imported either from US or Britain.
Im a natural born salesman,Many hot brands are promoted by me,u could get a line on me whatever :bigsmyl: Im well known in Chinese traditional archery/business circle. My chinese nickname is 裸奔张
Man,U just can't imagine all the hustle and butsle I need to handle with every day!I got an online shop to take care of,I need to interact with foreign bowyers and domestic customer,editing videos,practising shooting,studying english ect...I even converted one of my living room to a warehouse!The chinese marketing is so big!And remember,Not everyone wanna buy cheap stuff and be humiliated by knock offs.Im the guy who only sell high quality and original stuff.Expensive indeed
QuoteOriginally posted by Crested Finger:
Sounds like an old racist to me. Lots of bigots in the world. Just have to leave them behind and move on with life.
Tyrone, I have seen my bows copied by the far east.It is a very real concern.If you do not want to take my word for it ask, Robin. He has seen it happen himself. I can assure you that just because a man wants to protect his products and his lively hood. That does NOT make him a racist! I'm curious why it is that just because a man stands up to protect himself he is instantly labeled a racist? Maybe give that some thought.
This is the last I will say on this subject. The only reason I commented at all is so, Robin does not get the wrong impression that race had anything to do with the issue.
Bill
Bill is right, this isn't a matter of race, but it is a matter of law.
The problem with protecting designs is that virtually everything that is being done today with regard to traditional archery equipment has already been done before. The only things that can be patented are those things that are new and not a part of the body of existing knowledge in their particular field. When it comes to recurve and longbows, those things are few and far between. The fact is, every bowyer making bows today is using intellectual property that was "stolen" from someone else.
When it comes to protecting "industrial designs" which are the things that make a particular design unique and attractive, it has to be proven that the design, or anything very similar, has never been used before, and again those are VERY few and far between. Even if you can prove that you have a totally unique design, and choose to have it registered, the certificate only normally lasts 5 years and then usually only in the country in which it was issued.
If you are worried about knock offs get a U.S. and International patent. If you can't get the patent that means your product isn't original.
There is a market for entry level bows that are cheaply made and functional. Perhaps this is a good thing, as it might attract more people to archery than would otherwise do it. There is also a market for original bows made by craftsmen, or artists in some cases. I would no more want a Zipper knockoff than I would want a Rolex knockoff. If I had the money to buy a Rolex, having a knockoff would be meaningless to me. If I wanted a cheap watch, I would buy an honestly made cheap watch, not one that looked like a more expensive one.
The same would be true for me with one of Chad's bowstrings, for a different reason. Bowstrings are inexpensive enough that why would I want to pay a few dollars less for something that may or may not be equivalent? The feeling I get from buying a custom made string from someone like Chad is that a person I can call and talk to is making a string from the best material he can find the best he knows how, yesterday, today and tomorrow. Once I find someone like that, whether he is my dentist, gardener, pool guy or hardware store owner, I will deal with him for the rest of my life without pricing alternatives every time I need something.
Foreign competition is sometimes scary, but not always bad. For example, in the 50's, we got lazy making cars. In the '60's and '70's, the Japanese came along and cleaned our clocks. Now, Ford, for example, has figured out how to make trucks that I prefer to buy over all foreign competition for the type of vehicle I want, and not just because they are made in the USA. The same is true for many other kinds of vehicles now made by US car makers. Foreign competition can also be morally bankrupt, too, when they ride roughshod over our patent and copyright laws, and that needs to be a factor we take into account when we determine on a national level how we are going to deal with those countries in trade and other aspects of life.
To have someone from a foreign country come here and look over our products because they think our products are well made and worthy of emulation is a tribute to those who made them. That visit might result in them giving us a wake up call some day, but that's life.
Crested Finger......BYE!!!!!!!!! :wavey: