I placed the order for my Hill "Big 5" TD (and arrows) on Wednesday, January 11th. I received the bow slightly over three weeks later on Friday, February 3rd. Truly superb turnaround time.
(http://i.imgur.com/aXYNMSs.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/O3WoG95.jpg)
Here are the specifics for this beauty:
Howard Hill Big 5, 66", 45# @ 27"
"large" size Hill takedown grip
slight amount of string follow (more on this later)
4 caramelized bamboo lams
Texas Ebony riser
brown glass back, clear glass belly
wine color leather wrap with brown lacing
And here's the story on the string follow: I ordered a "straight" bow from HHA (in my ignorance), because I wanted one without either backset or string follow. However, my bow arrived with some string follow, which straightens in the middle of the lams, and ends at the tips with a very slight amount of backset. It actually appears to be a mild deflex/reflex.
When I emailed Craig as to the reason for this, he quickly responded with the following:
"Hi Frank:
Yes, this is how we build the bows. There is nothing unusual. You did request no backset or string follow, however we can't follow this exactly. When I build a backset bow, I glue it up on a form with 1 1/2" backset. Once I start working it down, it will lose half of the backset and will end up with about 5/8" to 3/4" backset in the end. If I want a string follow bow, I glue it up on a straight form and once I start working it in, it will start to bend toward the strung position. So because of how the bow works, it can't be made with exactly no backset nor string follow. There has to be some. Actually, a backset bow gives you a little more speed and a string follow bow gives you a little more smoothness. With a little of both, you get a little of both. Normally, our bows have a little more backset, but because you requested a t/d, I was able to adjust the backset a little when putting the sleeves on and made it less than average."
So now I know. At least I won't have to wonder how an ASL with string follow feels (in this case, very nice). And the next time I order one from Craig, I will take it with the normal slight amount of backset, to see how it changes the performance (there does have to be at least a second one, doesn't there? :bigsmyl: ).
(http://i.imgur.com/Tq66Cuh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ZjDU086.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/KjRSM3T.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/3In5w3g.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/EgwbzHq.jpg)
Bow performance:
First, a disclaimer: I'm attempting to learn to shoot Hill style, so my comments reflect my experience based on that style. Your mileage might vary, especially if you shoot with a high wrist style grip.
-- the brace height is set to 6.5", which is what Craig recommends for this bow and draw length combination. It shoots well and very quietly at this setting, so I've not had a reason to experiment. However, the B-50 string it came with is only a 10 strand flemish (I believe), and has a large amount of conditional stretch (over a quarter inch each time I string it), What I mean by this is that if the bow is unstrung for a few hours or more, and then I string it, my initial brace will be over ΒΌ" longer than the brace after it stays at tension for a while. So I've got a 14 strand flemish on order from Allen at TenRing Strings, which should help with this.
-- the bow is virtually dead quiet upon release (which is amazing to experience after shooting recurves). You hear the arrow leaving the shelf, but that's seemingly about it. And I'm not using any silencers of any type.
-- there is no hand shock: I can feel the power of the bow in my hand at the release, but no "shock", The only thing that I can detect after a long period of shooting is a sensation of slight pressure in the life line near my thumb. But nothing really at the moment of release.
I know that there are those who experience hand shock with ASLs (some say it "rattles their teeth"), but I do believe that if you shoot it the way that Howard and John Schulz taught, you won't notice any appreciable shock: the elbow must be slightly bent, and you must fully grab the bow, especially with the lower two fingers.
-- I can't detect any stacking (not that I would be able to discern small amounts, anyways). it is incredibly smooth to draw and shoot; possibly the slight string follow contributes to this.
-- as expected, it is quite forgiving (of less than perfect form) to shoot.
-- another great benefit: it's wonderful to finally own a bow that can be strung "conventionally" by hand rather than using a stringer, and without voiding the warranty. I use what some call the "push pull" method, with the tip on the inseam of my left foot, pulling on the back of the grip (or just above the grip), with my left hand while pushing the string up the tip with my right hand). Craig recommends this "conventional method" of hand stringing, and advises to NOT use the "step through" or "over the hip" methods.
Not having to carry a stringer: I like that.
Although I have a long way to go in trad with building my consistency, it does seem that when shooting this bow my consistency has immediately improved over that achieved with my recurves.
Very nice bow. I also shoot strictly Hill style with my recurves. I can't tell you how many hours I have spent perfecting my form the last 10 years. It's so worth it. Congrats on your new bow
The takedown grip:
The grip is wonderfully comfortable. This large size takedown grip (they offer it in both small or large sized) is wider and heftier than a standard Hill grip (which some feel is too narrow on the belly side). It has rounded edges all around, with the back side being more square; the belly side is oval with a slight hint of a vertical center line, just enough to nestle in the life line near the base of the thumb:
(http://i.imgur.com/a7nzWl0.jpg)
This provides me with a very comfortable and stable handle, and fits me very well, (even with my smaller hands). So much so, that the next time I order a bow from Craig, it will also be a takedown. Easy to transport, easy to hold: what's not to like?
Well, there is one cosmetic thing that some may not like: the top edge of the outer (steel) ferrule is very obvious, when looking from the correct angles. The same is true for the bottom view, where both the edges of the inner (brass) and outer ferrules are visible.
And obviously there is the added weight. Personally I like this. But some prefer a lighter weight handle.
(http://i.imgur.com/McT4CWM.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/3DtKvyi.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/fI5AxdC.jpg)
Arrows:
I also ordered a dozen white capped arrows (built by Jason). They are beautiful. I ordered them full length, so that I can cut them to the length that works for my draw.
While cutting and tapering the first arrow, I was immediately aware of the heavenly, fragrant aroma of those Port Orford Cedar arrows. Wonderful!.
*****************
Thank you, Craig and Jason, for your products, quick turn around time, and your customer service.
Also thank go to Nate Steen for his invaluable advice. We have had some very lengthy phone conversations, which have really helped me.
Also thanks go to TG members two4hooking and pavan, who have shared with me via email much important information, and encouragement, regarding the Hill style approach to traditional archery.
Lastly, thanks go to all the members here at TG who have also shared much via their replies.
Best wishes,
Frank
Awesome bow, Congrats! :clapper:
Yes sir, you got a winner there. :thumbsup:
Congrats!!! Thats a beautiful bow. I get my first ASL next week
You have contracted the ASL disease, from which there is no cure. Just roll with it; since there is no cure, you might as well just savor it. Not all archers are so lucky as to have discovered the alchemy of Hill style bows.
If you heat up the string and then string the bow it will "settle in" and not stretch much after that (B50). I use a small crock pot to melt beeswax and heat it up in there. Bob Swinehart used to rub it with wax and then put it in the over for a bit.
The wax really penetrates this way also.
QuoteOriginally posted by centaur:
You have contracted the ASL disease, from which there is no cure. Just roll with it; since there is no cure, you might as well just savor it. Not all archers are so lucky as to have discovered the alchemy of Hill style bows.
:thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by two4hooking:
If you heat up the string and then string the bow it will "settle in" and not stretch much after that (B50). I use a small crock pot to melt beeswax and heat it up in there. Bob Swinehart used to rub it with wax and then put it in the over for a bit.
The wax really penetrates this way also.
Thanks for the tip, Greg. :thumbsup:
By the way, how may strands do you use for your Hill bows?
Best wishes,
Frank
Nice bow.......now have fun!!!
Frank
That's a beauty. Enjoy the Hill longbows. They are somethin' special. Love my Big 5 and WS. Nice looking arrows and quiver. I use a Selway longbow stringer for the Wesley Special, 14 strand B50 from Allen.
You're hooked!!! :archer2:
Deno
:clapper:
QuoteOriginally posted by Deno:
Frank
That's a beauty. Enjoy the Hill longbows. They are somethin' special. Love my Big 5 and WS. Nice looking arrows and quiver. I use a Selway longbow stringer for the Wesley Special, 14 strand B50 from Allen.
You're hooked!!! :archer2:
Deno
Thank you, Deno.
It's interesting: I'm already planning for my next Hill, and I am leaning towards the Wesley Special, also! Four caramelized outer lams, with a natural color middle lam, to provide a striped effect. :cool:
Sounds like a great combo Frank. I love mine. Didn't think I would like the White belly glass but I bought it that way for the numbers (70# and 70 inches). That's one reason why I bought a Selway longbow stringer. I've always used the step through but I don't want to risk it with 70#. I'm always adjusting the brace height (7"). Much easier and safer with the stringer.
Deno
That explains it, Deno. I was wondering why you were using a Selway. But at 70# I would be also.
The method which I described is what Craig refers to as the "conventional" method. He mentions it in the tips and warranty sheet that comes with his bows. But I had to call him to have him describe it to me, as I wasn't certain what "conventional" actually meant to him.
I recently saw a video here on TG, where Howard Hill was hunting with some friends, and one of them strung Howard's bow using this method. Also on the same video you see an example of Howard's takedown:
Shooting in camp (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/vintage/hhmp.wmv)
Good video. I know that's the conventional method, but I never liked my head or face in line with the bow tip. One slip and it's a sure trip to the Emergency Room. I can string my Hill bows with the step through fairly easy but I'll try the Selway.
Deno
Frank
Any luck or response about getting John Schulz's DVD?
Deno
I received an email back from his daughter Laurie. She told me he had a couple. I just sent him a check for one yesterday in the mail.
Great!! I just watched mine the other night. Glad you were able to get it!!
Deno
From Laurie
John Schulz is planning to hold his final bow shooting schools the last
2 wks of June 2017. All the pertinent information will be posted to his website shortly. We will be accepting reservations after April 1.
I've got to get you down to Georgetown so I can try it. Been wanting to try a string follow bow.
QuoteOriginally posted by Biathlonman:
I've got to get you down to Georgetown so I can try it. Been wanting to try a string follow bow.
I'd be happy to oblige you sometime, Brad. :archer2:
I just need to improve a little more so that I'm not totally embarrassed... :eek:
I use a 16 strand B50 but i like them fat and overbuilt.
Hill quiver, too, or is that one of Nate's?
QuoteOriginally posted by Vesty:
Hill quiver, too, or is that one of Nate's?
It's the stiff leather, 22", version sold by HHA.
I never shot one. Does this style of bow have hand-shock?
Tedd
I can only relate the grip to a hammer or tennis racquet. If you have a death grip on either one, you can bet your hand and elbow will feel the shock. Same with these bows. With the proper grip and slightly bent arm, I've never felt hand shock in all the years shooting Hill bows.
Deno
QuoteOriginally posted by Tedd:
I never shot one. Does this style of bow have hand-shock?
I wrote this in my long winded review at the beginning of this thread:
QuoteOriginally posted by Learner:
-- there is no hand shock: I can feel the power of the bow in my hand at the release, but no "shock", The only thing that I can detect after a long period of shooting is a sensation of slight pressure in the life line near my thumb. But nothing really at the moment of release.
I no longer even detect any pressure in my lifeline, even after extended shooting periods.
For me it's hard to accurately express how great this bow feels upon release (to me). You can feel the poower of it, but without discomfort, if that makes any sense. To me it feels very "solid". I think that the absolute quietness of the bow upon release enhances that sense somehow.
But keep in mind that I had determined several months ago that I wanted a Hill ASL. So I endeavored to try to learn to shoot "Hill Style" with my recurve bows. In retrospect I believe this was a good preparatory approach to take.
Others have experienced just the opposite with Hill type bows: annoying discomfort or pain. I read a story recently about someone who bought a Hill bow from an archer who complained about how bad was the handshock he was experiencing. The eventual purchaser of that bow experienced no such issue.
So these can either feel great or terrible, depending on your form, build, and other factors. I also have the takedown grip, which runs wider on the belly side.
I hope that helps,
Frank