Trad Gang

What is the most UEFOC you have been able to obtain? And what components were used?

Please, this is not an foc debate. Thanks.


Summary on page 6.

Best I've done was 23%.  Not real high, but it was a woodie.

Can you provide the range of FOC for these categories?

FOC range-?

EFOC range-?

UEFOC range-?

I'm not being a smart aleck. I sincerely don't know what constitutes the ranges for these categories.

I shoot 29" GT trad .500's with 250 grains up front.  Shot out of 45-47lb bows.  FOC is about 23-24% if I recall.  Havent tried to build much higher than that.

longbow fanatic 1....

Extreme FOC ( >19%) - 1st notable gains are manifested at levels >19%

-- Normal FOC - < 12%

-- High FOC - >12 % to 19%

-- Extreme FOC- > 19% to <30%

--Ultra EFOC >30% - EFOC contributes to a 40% to a 60% increase in penetration having most of the enhancing features

--Ultra-EFOC is (Study defined) as being 30% and above. The reason being, it's really difficult to reach 30% and above FOC without making a concentrated effort to attain FOC.

In theory, one would think after you get that much weight on the front of an arrow it would start having a tumbling effect. Anybody experience this? The EFOC and UEFOC subject really interest me.

31%  

Victory vforce 500 shaft cut to 27.5"
300 grain point with the standard 22 grain insert

3 -4" shield fletched and I swapped the shafts around so the graphic was toward the point rather than the nock.

Total arrow weight is about 520 grains

33.7% reference my post in thread "how much weight up front" on page three

Covey...why would one think that?

Toss a brick with a string attached and no turning induced by the release and the string merely follows.

The more FOC, the less fletching is required and if utilizing longer fletchings, may place so much drag on an EFOC and UEFOC arrow that the slowed arrow velocity will be forced to drop at an accelerated rate.

I got to 32.5%.

500 Spine Black Eagle X-Impact, 40 gn outsert, 80 gn custom made internal SST weight to stiffen spine, 250 gn head.

Thank goodness for metal riser ILF bows, or else that would have been a tough one to tune in...

Friend,
"Toss a brick with a string attached and no turning induced by the release and the string merely follows."

I do appreciate the feedback. I have no experience in EFOC or UEFOC, but would love to learn. So what your saying, is that the EFOC weight is essentially pulling the arrow correct? I'm in the process of setting up some heavy carbon arrows with 250 grains up front.

QuoteOriginally posted by Friend:
longbow fanatic 1....

Extreme FOC ( >19%) - 1st notable gains are manifested at levels >19%

-- Normal FOC - < 12%

-- High FOC - >12 % to 19%

-- Extreme FOC- > 19% to <30%

--Ultra EFOC >30% - EFOC contributes to a 40% to a 60% increase in penetration having most of the enhancing features

--Ultra-EFOC is (Study defined) as being 30% and above. The reason being, it's really difficult to reach 30% and above FOC without making a concentrated effort to attain FOC.

Thanks, Friend!

There is a lot of information here

http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=24

Best ive gotten so far is 31%

I'm at 20.2%  Those of you around 30 has your experience shown a difference on deer sized game?

Im shooting 28.96% (or call it 29% efoc).
Beman Centershot 400's cut to 28.25" (i draw 28.00) with a 75 grain brass insert, 310 grain head, and 3 - 3.5" parabolic fletchings on the back, 10 grain nock.  The calculator calls it 1 to 1.5% less than what the efoc really is when you actually balance the shaft on a knife blade and take real measurements.
Bareshafts fly great out to 25 yards.  In fact, I can even shoot a bareshafted broadhead out to 15 yards quite well (dont try that with normal foc).

QuoteOriginally posted by Covey:
Friend,
"Toss a brick with a string attached and no turning induced by the release and the string merely follows."

I do appreciate the feedback. I have no experience in EFOC or UEFOC, but would love to learn. So what your saying, is that the EFOC weight is essentially pulling the arrow correct? I'm in the process of setting up some heavy carbon arrows with 250 grains up front.

Don't forget the fletching is adding drag aiding in stabilization and its effect is larger due the the longer lever arm as foc goes up.

My last try hit 32%, 465gr point/insert, 4x4 A&A fletch with turbulator, x-impact 300 spine full length.

Thats a serious arrow katman, Nicely done!

Thanks shadowhunter, I cheated a little and had a springy rest and metal ILF riser to help.

Im at 32%. Full length RIP XV with stainless Shok insert, 300 points, 4 fletch 2.75AA and turbolator

31℅
27.5 inch gold tip shaft double brass inserts totaling 190 grains. 125 grain steel adapter and 135 grain head. Total is 710 grains with 450 up front.
Reason I went this way is I shoot a bunch of judos and can build my judos to weigh the same as my broadheads.
Been shooting this combo for a few years now. Love it. I have a few videos showing that shaft bareshaft shooting with a huge broadhead, how I build it, how it flies in high wind, etc. Hit my link then hit videos and you will find a bunch of info on uefoc arrows.

Hey LB_hntr, just wondering have you ever testing how much FoC your set up would have if you used a woody weight rather than a double brass insert?   Just curious...


I really enjoyed your vids on the subject, thanks for the entertainment and info!

QuoteOriginally posted by Longtoke:
Hey LB_hntr, just wondering have you ever testing how much FoC your set up would have if you used a woody weight rather than a double brass insert?   Just curious...


I really enjoyed your vids on the subject, thanks for the entertainment and info!

Never tried woody weights so can't help there. The double insert system works great as the extra FOC weight is offset by the extra length of the double insert and i did not have to change shaft spine and still get the high FOC weight. Win-win. Extra bonus is the first 3 inches of shaft is super tough due to the double brass insert. Can't tell ya last time I broke a shaft now. Love these arrows! Also the penetration is amazing. Have killed 17 deer with these arrows and complete pass thru shots on 16 of them with a huge Magnus 1.5 inch wide broadhead from a 57# bow and my short little 26" draw length. I used to shoot recurves in the high 70s and other longbows in the mid 60s and never had a track record like that. The last deer I killed this year(the non pass thru) was a medium size doe and I blew thru the shoulder blade and broke the leg on the opposite side. Never had that happen with other arrow set ups!

I used to care and then I remember I shoot Trad for the simplicity.

DDave

QuoteOriginally posted by damascusdave:
I used to care and then I remember I shoot Trad for the simplicity.

DDave

X2. I'm not a big fan of the complexity. Even though there are studies by one man showing that very high FOC is highly advantageous to penetration I still don't believe it.

Hunters were blowing through elephants (Bill Negley as one example) with heavy wooden arrows and even penetrating through steel armor with wooden arrows with "regular" FOC.

Has anyone done any moderate to long distance shooting comparisons between regular FOC and very high FOC arrows between 30-50 yards+?

I'd imagine that with a very high FOC would be the further out you go the more the back end of the arrow would be prone to swaying left/right up/down since most of the weight is condensed in the point of the arrow and not spread out mostly evenly throughout the shaft.

Here is my arrow.
Victory RIP xtreme Gamer V3
It comes in at 696 grains
The FOC is 35.138%
This is according to Tuffheads calculator.
Nock seat to front of arrow head insert 29.4375"
Balance point 4.375 from point insert or 25.0625" from nock seat to balance point.

heck its not all the complicated, just tune your arrows to a real heavy point.  

If you like to tinker with arrows and start chasing foc then it can get a little more tricky, but thats the joy of tinkering to me.

" I'm not a big fan of the complexity. Even though there are studies by one man showing that very high FOC is highly advantageous to penetration I still don't believe it. "


---what is so complex about it??
people used to believe the earth was flat too!
...then thinking men proved that wrong

purposely designing an arrow to maximize penetration is a valid endeavor--that IMO could save your bacon on a less than perfect shot--
in my book worth the effort

simply taking your normal shaft and screwing 550g on the front will likely give you very poor results and I believe the reason some still disparage the concept

a lot of real smart hunters are putting this concept to work ---me I don't believe I've ever experienced TOO MUCH penetration!!

 hunt your own way--use whatever arrows you like

My current arrow is 27.77%. We'll see how it does in Africa next week. I'll let you know when I get back.

QuoteOriginally posted by bamboo:
" I'm not a big fan of the complexity. Even though there are studies by one man showing that very high FOC is highly advantageous to penetration I still don't believe it. "


---what is so complex about it??
people used to believe the earth was flat too!
...then thinking men proved that wrong

purposely designing an arrow to maximize penetration is a valid endeavor--that IMO could save your bacon on a less than perfect shot--
in my book worth the effort

simply taking your normal shaft and screwing 550g on the front will likely give you very poor results and I believe the reason some still disparage the concept

a lot of real smart hunters are putting this concept to work ---me I don't believe I've ever experienced TOO MUCH penetration!!

 hunt your own way--use whatever arrows you like

It's complicated because tuning arrows to EFOC changes a lot of standard principals and makes things very tricky.

For example before I got the right spined arrows for my current bow I was getting a slight stiff reading using .500 spine arrows and 125 grain points out of a 45# bow (about 44# on fingers).

With a 300 grain point they were still showing the same amount stiff yet on some shots they were showing slight weak. I've read other archers problems using very heavy points with light weight arrows.

False stiff/false weak becomes a problem and nock high is more of an issue as well since all of the weight is in the point.

Also shooting past 20 yards and they dropped really hard really fast.

I have played with EFOC and "regular" FOC and got less penetration with the EFOC arrow because of how slow that it was compared to the 125 grain point.

EFOC also does not work with natural shaft material (without a lot of work at least) since most wood arrows are naturally heavy.

Wooden arrows in the standard FOC range have worked for hunters up until the point where EFOC was invented. Now you need EFOC or else you are in trouble (kidding about that point).

For me EFOC causes weird arrow flight and a poor trajectory that want's to nose dive.

But if it works for you keep doing it.

I got into traditional archery to keep the equipment side as simple as possible and not have to use calculators or weird mathematics like algebra.

A heavy arrow with sufficient velocity will break bones and take down any animal on this planet.

The English were penetrating through steel armor using wooden arrows and they did not use EFOC to my knowledge.

High efoc or not. Nobody is twisting anyone's arm to do it or not. But advise on high efoc should be given by people that have used high efoc. If you have not used it and don't know anything about it your opinion is kind of irrelevant. No offense. But no reason to defend anything when nobody is attacking anything.

I will say I have killed alot of big game animals over the last 25 years. I mean alot. Many with cedar, many with fir, many with aluminum, many with carbon. Standard FOC, high FOC, extreme FOC and ultra extreme FOC. For me the proof is in the pudding. Never once during all these years have I ever went backwards with FOC. Always more and more.
As someone that has experience on all aspects of arrows I will just say. I promise you in hunting situations you will do better with a higher efoc arrow....Period. weather you decide to go that route or not is up to you. But it is real, it is proven by my own experiences, as well as many others. Accept that or don't. Do it or don't. But don't ever try to disqualify the power of it. If there was a better arrow set up out there I would be using it. And in that constant search for the perfect arrow I have never went to less efoc ever!

LB_hntr, well said.

Well we stayed on topic longer than I thought before the naysayers butted in. If you want to discuss foc start your own thread.

In case you did not read the original post.

"Please, this is not an foc debate. Thanks.

Deleted out of respect to original posters request.

I have a 31% foc arrow thats about 11 gpp....  being able to shoot longer distances in the wind is one of the reasons I like my arrow set up.   once they are tuned they seem to fly as straight as any of my tuned woodies. I never noticed any of the different arrow builds nose diving....  just my experience,

Any post that gets Mr. Abe Penner going is a good one. And he is bang on. Odd how people who agree are not debating and those who disagree are debating. In Canada we believe in freedom of speech and just say what we think.

DDave

Dave, the question posted specifically asked for ones efoc results and not an foc debate as I feared this would degrade to. My thought was this information may help others with a place to start if they want to try higher foc. The new topic button is available for anyone to use.

Thank you forestdweller.

Hope we can get back on topic if anyone else has efoc configuration information to share.

I'll share mine, but it tends to drag out verbal brawls for some reason.

This season,I used a purple heart footed cedar shaft, front loaded with 425gr. Yes, the arrow is a heavy one coming in at 825gr. My bow is not cut to center, and lower lb draw allowing me to get UEFOC. Those particular arrows are a bit over 31%. I killed a nice big doe this year at 15 yards with them. Those arrows were the end product of testing, trying, and figuring for almost a year, and it was a blast. My 17 yr old son has a similar set up on aluminums that are 27%, and he took a nice buck at 12 yards. Amazing what those arrows did.

Think of EFOC as front wheel drive. It's pulling instead of pushing.

Don 't do anything spectacular with my skinny carbons.  I get about 23-24% depending on the head I use (about 300 to 350 grains in total up front, 29 inches BOP).  Been very pleased with the results and haven't tried to go higher, though probably could with a heavier spined shaft.

Have been able to achieve just shy of 20% with wood arrows.  11/32 shafts footed with a standard length hardwood shaft and tapered the back 9-10 inches or so. 160 grain head, 29 inches BOP.
Could probably go higher here, too, but adding more weight up front requires more spine. Difficult to find in POC.

I shoot 22% FOC and I really noticed how awesome this principle works when I went from 57# to 47# at 28" draw.

I get as good of penetration at 47#'s as I did with other arrows with my 57# limbs. It is a very simple way to increase penetration without having to go to a really heavy arrow.

Years ago I was just trying to increase overall arrow weight and did not know about FOC. It is nice to stay at the 10gpi threshold and get better penetration by getting the FOC up. I shoot carbons.

I remember a chat with the EFOC Doc (real one, retired eye surgeon, not one who has such a handle on the net)   :rolleyes:   and we chuckled how we bugged carbon makers to up the weight of shafts for us trad. They did, now we want spine without the weight so we can front weight without getting rebar weight arrows!  :)

I used to do the weed eater thing back when carbons came on the scene, and some were filling shafts with condiments (really!)pull the nock and season your kill over the fire I guess.

AS I dropped draw weight, I become far more interested in improving penetration...

it's like "hunting the wind"... good policy if you have extensive enough cover to do that but some areas only have patchworks of small cover to hunt legally, so then you best find other resources...

Same with penetration. It's not a concern for everyone and the great news is, "do what you feel is best!"  No holy grail here!  :)  :)

I've come up with 2 different EFOC arrow recipes for the bows I shoot the most. For my 51 and 54# Silvertips, I was able to achieve 27% FOC at a fairly light arrow weight of 450 grains:

-Victory RIP XV .400 shaft at apx. 29 1/8"
-Victory Stainless SHOK half outsert
-200 grain head
-Three 4" parabolic feathers
-Easton Axis X nock

For my main hunting bows (Silvertip 60# and Habu 61#), the following arrow comes in at 640 grains and 30.3% FOC:

-Victory RIP XV .300 shaft at apx. 29 ½" (these shafts run 7.0 GPI)
-a 50 grain Easton Axis (breakoff) insert below a 100 grain brass Axis insert from 3 Rivers (150 gr total)
-1" 1916 aluminum shaft as an external footing
-Three 4" parabolic feathers
-Easton Axis X nock
-250 grain head

My best to date is 33.0% on a 900 grain arrow.

I'm working on something special right now and I think I might be able to push it higher. More to come in a few weeks.
Thom

Dennis502, nice. How do you find the durability of the Victory RIP XV shafts, especially the 400 spine?

Katman-

Not nearly as durable as the Easton Trad Axis I used for years. The Victory RIP's will not survive a hard strike as well as some other options. There's no denying that and there is no free lunch.

However, I've (slowly) adopted the view of my arrows as a relatively inexpensive consumable item. I shoot almost every day from May through September (and hunt hard September-November) and I still don't destroy/lose more than 18 arrows a year. That's less than $200. I spend that much on ammo for a weekend of running my pistols or a couple of nights out with my wife.

Everyone has a different matrix for what they consider expensive, but for me I consider the enhanced performance of these shafts worth the loss in durability. This was my first season using them (5 whitetails, one bull elk, bunch of small game) and I will be shooting them again next season.

Since I have had to move down in draw weight (due to a shoulder replacement) getting more FOC has become more important. I want to make sure my arrows are as lethal as possible. I am at 18.5% now (not too bad) and looking to work up a formula for something over 20% if I can assemble the right parts.

I do think I'm OK so far with 11.5 GPP at 18.5% -- but I like to tinker with arrows, so I'll keep at it. Gold Tip Velocity shafts seem promising.

There is no advantage in penetration gains under 19% FOC. The increases just beyond 19% are revealed by close analysis. From a personal experience perspective, the 25% mark penetration increases are easily verifiable. Beyond that, the penetration increases a much more pronounced...the increase in FOC form upper EFOC to UEFOC are visibly not linear.

Utilizing 400 gn up front on a 611 gn total wt UEFOC arrow has yielded penetration from brisket to an 6-8" exit of the inner thigh utilizing a Big 3...deer just laid down on the spot...was utilizing a 52# bow.

On the flip side, this setup is far more than I require (extremely hard on targets)for the game I pursue. Note: Excellent shootabilty yet more than I need...often times requiring an arrow puller to remove arrows from 3D targets.

If setup properly, your own observations will serve you best.

Friend-
Could you please describe your shaft/point combo?

Hermon...

Victory HV350....10 gn nock...28 5/8" shaft...100 gn insert...300 gn point...611 gn total arrow wt

Thanks to everyone that's replied.  I'm very interested in this and have gotten some good advice/knowledge from this thread.

Finished my latest efoc arrow. Black Eagle x-impact full length 350, 33" with outsert, 325 point plus 45gr outsert= 370gr up front. Total weight 631gr. Plan to try increase point weight to hit Ashby bone threshold of 650gr. Right now foc 28.8%. That's with 4x4 parabolics, plan to try 4x4 A&H fletch to compare.

May try the 400's next and see if I have enough arrow to shorten and tune with 325gr point.Oh the lulls of winter.

You could try a lighter insert and using a woody weight to shift more of the weight to the tip of the shaft.  That should give you a nice little bump in foc.  

The brass insert would make for a more robust arrow though I would think.

katman...why 650 gns...are you hunting Asiatic buffalo?

The Ashby bone threshold was established based on possibly the toughest critter to penetrate on the planet next to pachyderms.

This is the reason I observe the rule of 650 grains even on average to small game:
https://youtu.be/AhSzRAVdJKU?t=2m30s

The aforementioned is absolutely not a rule.

A rule is an explicit or understood regulation or principal governing conduct.

As a major proponet of Dr. Ashby, it is difficult to dismiss the the hyperfocus on gaining an edge which in total may account for less than 5% of what is required to consistantly harvest game. Assuming a moderate arrow design and tuned arrow applicable to the game pursued, the exceedingly number one element for success, is typically omitted as if the mind is preset for failure.

The exceedingly largest available gain to be made resides behind the bow. Execute a shot that your mind most confidently owns.

Know your own personal setup and its limitations, focus and perform the shot sequence with total confidence.

I shoot 21% simply because it flies well out of my bow.  I've never tried for higher.  Thats Gold Tips with 100gr inserts and 125gr heads.

QuoteOriginally posted by Friend:
katman...why 650 gns...are you hunting Asiatic buffalo?

The Ashby bone threshold was established based on possibly the toughest critter to penetrate on the planet next to pachyderms.

Nope, just the lull of winter and playing around. I am going to stick with this setup for that particular bow. Point on is 25 yards with that 33" shaft. Been trying fixed crawl and now no need to crawl. Have not chroned it yet but it shoots so darn good I don't care about the speed.

QuoteOriginally posted by Longtoke:
You could try a lighter insert and using a woody weight to shift more of the weight to the tip of the shaft.  That should give you a nice little bump in foc.  

The brass insert would make for a more robust arrow though I would think.

Got to stick with the outsert for the .165 id x-impact. The outsert does foot the shaft some. Going to stay with it the way it is, shoots to darn good.

According to Ashby, 650 gr is the minimum recommended bone breaking threshold for deep penetration in standard sized big game... 900gr is the recommended minimum for bone breaking threshold for deep penetration on the super sized large game animals.

Found some time to put some small fletch, 4x2.75x.5 with turbulator on the 350 x-impacts. Weight reduction was only 3 grains. Difference in feather weight from 4x4 parobolics and these smaller fletch is 5 grain but the turbulator added 3 grains. Anyway foc went from 28.8 to 29.55.   :bigsmyl:   . 631gr with 29.55 foc and 11.6gpp is way more than I need but can't wait to put it to test on turkeys this spring with the grizzly instinct and large hogs with the grizzly kodiak.

This may be part of the "debate" BUT this is the second time I've heard the brick and string analogy regarding EFOC.  Yes, the brick will pull the string, BUT the string won't PUSH the brick.  That's the way an arrow works.  Therefore, I'd expect there is a maximum FOC for any particular shaft.  Finding out what works via input from others' experiments seems like a pretty good idea to me.  We don't each have to reinvent the wheel.

Really liking the X Impacks and VAP .166. With a 300 gr point outsert weighs 48 gr, total upfront 348gr total shaft with 3 4" feather 510-520 grains.
Been using efoc for about 15 years now, not about to go backward. Like using a real light shaft and the heavy points.

BTW what is the formula to determine FOC???

Here Bob - from Grizzlystik
For those of you who prefer to calculate your FOC the old way with a calculator, this is for you:

A = Balance point as measured from the throat of the nock to the point of balance.
L = Total arrow length as measured from the throat of the nock to the back of the point.
(Do not include the length of the point in this measurement.)

1.  Measure the arrow length from the throat of the nock to the end of the shaft. (Back of the point) e.g. 28.5"

2.  Divide the total length number by two (2). (Or multiply it by 0.5.) e.g. 28.5/2 = 14.25 or 28.5 x 0.5 = 14.25

3.  Find the arrow's balance point. Measured from the nock throat to the balance point. e.g. 19.0"

4.  Subtract half the total length from the balance point number. e.g. 19.0" - 14.25" = 4.75"

5.  Multiply that result by 100. e.g. 4.75 x 100 = 475

6.  Now divide that number by the total arrow length. e.g. 475 / 28.5 = 16.6% FOC

There are a lot of calculators online which you input your arrow specs and they calculate it for you - Gold Tip has one

I can see this being easier with heavy poundage bows but more challenging with lighter equipment around 50lbs and under.
I went through some of the Ashbly reports on here - 2007 part 5 I believe listed things in order of importance for penetration - FOC being 3rd after tuning and good arrow flight (out of 10) so high on the list.
I shoot mainly 48-51 lb bows and next winter (arrow making time - just finished this year)maybe try some lighter heavier spine shaft to see if I can increase it. Always avoided the really light shafts but assume that would be the method to go.
175 grain to 225 grain up front now on CE150's and CE250's comes in around 13%

Looking at the X Impacts on-line, does the point screw into the outsert with the outsert adding length to the finished arrow, it's a little difficult to tell from the website.  I'm currently shooting FMJ's with about 250 grn on the front making a fairly heavy shaft with about 19% FOC.  I'm interested EFOC as I feel anything that improves penetration is a positive as the few animals I haven't recovered all have had a penetration issue.  I also need to come up with a good arrow for my daughter to hunt with considering her short draw and the low draw weight bows she needs to shoot.

In regards to the arrow "pushing" the broadhead - The only time the arrow is pushing the head is after the release when the arrow is still attached to the bowstring.  Once the arrow separates from the string, the arrow is no longer pushing the head, it is following, and if fletched it is actually pulling on the head due to the drag on the fletch and slowing the head speed down.  Without this drag or pulling on the head the arrow flight would never stabilize.  As said before, the more FOC you have, the longer the leverage arm you have on the head so it takes less drag force to stabilize the arrow.  This allows you to use smaller feathers to conserve the arrows speed and reduce the effects of cross winds.

QuoteOriginally posted by rraming:

I can see this being easier with heavy poundage bows but more challenging with lighter equipment around 50lbs and under.

Good stuff rraming.

But I always thought it harder with heavier bows because with all the weight up front, the arrows quickly become too weak and you run out of stiffer arrow options quickly - at least with carbon.  But who knows...

Lt-m-grow.  More likely to run out of spine with woodies than carbons.  Can get some hellasciously stiff carbons.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bowbldr:
Really liking the X Impacks and VAP .166. With a 300 gr point outsert weighs 48 gr, total upfront 348gr total shaft with 3 4" feather 510-520 grains.
Been using efoc for about 15 years now, not about to go backward. Like using a real light shaft and the heavy points.

BTW what is the formula to determine FOC???

Here is a program Rob Destafano made up Bob, easy to use.

http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000089

last arrow, yes the point screws into the outsert allowing the use of regular threads versus the deep six. The outsert also foots the end of the shaft. Full length with outsert is 33" for my x-impact 350's.

That's a nice setup Bob, an advantage of a short draw you can use a shorter arrow reducing overall weight.

The challenge with 50# bows is not too evasive due to the more recent availability of higher spined low GPI arrows.

The greater challenge is incurred when one has a long draw length and is limited to long arrow lengths.

The challenge with 50# bows is not too evasive due to the more recent availability of higher spined low GPI arrows.

The greater challenge is incurred when one has a long draw length and is limited to long arrow lengths.

Note: Shimming the side plate out provides an added FOC increase option.

Gery, with the outsert on the X Impacks do you measure to the back of field point or back of out sert???? Not trying to be a SA just want to do it right. BTW I like Rob formulas.

Bob

Bob, Back of field point, same as if I was using a brass insert in a gold tip.

Thanks for the info. I'm at 33.33% foc.

Bob

Quick summary of posted foc/components. Thanks all.

29" GT trad .500's with 250 grains up front. Shot out of 45-47lb bows. FOC is about 23-24%

31%Victory vforce 500 shaft cut to 27.5"
300 grain point with the standard 22 grain insert
3 -4" shield fletched and I swapped the shafts around so the graphic was toward the point rather than the nock.Total arrow weight is about 520 grain

I got to 32.5%.500 Spine Black Eagle X-Impact, 40 gn outsert, 80 gn custom made internal SST weight to stiffen spine, 250 gn head.
Im shooting 28.96% (or call it 29% efoc).
Beman Centershot 400's cut to 28.25" (i draw 28.00) with a 75 grain brass insert, 310 grain head, and 3 - 3.5" parabolic fletchings on the back, 10 grain nock.

32%, 465gr point/insert, 4x4 A&A fletch with turbulator, x-impact 300 spine full length

32%. Full length RIP XV with stainless Shok insert, 300 points, 4 fletch 2.75AA and turbolator

31℅ 27.5 inch gold tip shaft double brass inserts totaling 190 grains. 125 grain steel adapter and 135 grain head. Total is 710 grains with 450 up front.

I've come up with 2 different EFOC arrow recipes for the bows I shoot the most. For my 51 and 54# Silvertips, I was able to achieve 27% FOC at a fairly light arrow weight of 450 grains:

-Victory RIP XV .400 shaft at apx. 29 1/8"
-Victory Stainless SHOK half outsert
-200 grain head
-Three 4" parabolic feathers
-Easton Axis X nock

For my main hunting bows (Silvertip 60# and Habu 61#), the following arrow comes in at 640 grains and 30.3% FOC:

-Victory RIP XV .300 shaft at apx. 29 ½" (these shafts run 7.0 GPI)
-a 50 grain Easton Axis (breakoff) insert below a 100 grain brass Axis insert from 3 Rivers (150 gr total)
-1" 1916 aluminum shaft as an external footing
-Three 4" parabolic feathers
-Easton Axis X nock
-250 grain head


Victory HV350....10 gn nock...28 5/8" shaft...100 gn insert...300 gn point...611 gn total arrow wt

Black Eagle x-impact full length 350, 33" with outsert, 325 point plus 45gr outsert= 370gr up front. Total weight 631gr, 28.8%foc, with 4A&A 29.5%

X Impacks and VAP .166. With a 300 gr point outsert weighs 48 gr, total upfront 348gr total shaft with 3 4" feather 510-520 grains, 33.3%foc

black eagle x-impact .400, 370 point/outsert, 30.16% foc, 605gr

And this nice post by Friend.

Extreme FOC ( >19%) - 1st notable gains are manifested at levels >19%

-- Normal FOC - < 12%

-- High FOC - >12 % to 19%

-- Extreme FOC- > 19% to <30%

--Ultra EFOC >30% - EFOC contributes to a 40% to a 60% increase in penetration having most of the enhancing features

--Ultra-EFOC is (Study defined) as being 30% and above. The reason being, it's really difficult to reach 30% and above FOC without making a concentrated effort to attain FOC.

I want your input.
Do you think a 750 grain arrow with 15% FOC will perform better or worse than a 600 grain arrow with 20% FOC?

Reason I ask is I hear guys talk about their heavy arrows being so great but they're so slow. Then I release my lighter arrow with better FOC and it fly's so much quicker and it penetrates even better.

Wouldn't you have a more optimal performing arrow if it's the ideal blend of FOC, weight, and speed?

What are your thoughts?

What are your suggestions on a optimally designed hunting arrow for elk?

If both are properly tuned they will get the job done. I would choose the one I was most accurate with at various hunting ranges.

I have hunted with very similar setups and both made 2 holes on whitetails. It would only be a guess on my part to choose which performs better.

For what I hunt in North America the ideal blend for me would be 500-600 grain arrow with as much foc as I could get and have a durable shaft. Adjust broadhead type, 2 or 3 blade, depending on critter size/toughness. That is probably where I will end up after putting these efoc arrows thru some critters.

Elk I would go with 600gr, foc >20%, 2 blade cut on contact head.

My current arrows a 29 1/8" Victory V Force,HV6 .350.

Brass inserts are turned down to 92-93 grs.Broadhead is a 300 gr Tuffhead,with steel adapter,405 grs.Fletching is 3",4 fletch of my own design,nor quite A+A.Overall weight is 728 grs and 35% FOC.

These are tuned for several bows from 50-53 #.
(http://i.imgur.com/st88bf9.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/DtoFt1p.jpg)

JimB was wondering when you were going to come on this thread. I thought you might have an even higher FOC. The cut on your feathers does it make them quieter? Not that 3" are very loud to begin with.

I have never delved into FOC, so know almost nothing about it. Is there a tipping point, at which you get diminishing returns from further increase.

I guess one of the reasons FOC never turned my crank is that I believe it is unnecessary for  white tail hunting when using my hunting weight bows, all from 50 - 56#. Any point weight that tunes well seems to be quite adequate. Am I missing something? Assuming my thoughts are adequate for deer, what if I move up to hogs and other heavy frame game? I can see that it could then become significant to me. I shoot only wood arrows. Also, I don't enjoy tinkering, so unless the probability of significant enhanced performance is high, it would still not interest me. You guys that have a lot of experience with EFOC can give skeptics like me a lot of useful info to ponder. I guess what I really want to know is if you can accurately quantify the degree of performance improvement you have experienced and at what % of FOC these best results happened. Thanks.

A link to my 750 gr arrow is in this post.

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=001184;p=1#000002
 
My arrow shoots 160 fps out of my longbow at 62#.
My 550 gr arrow shoots 180 fps.  For my hunting ranges the 20 fps isn't huge given increased KE and Momentum.  Dr Ashby felt that the "bone breaking" threshold was 650 grain area for heavy boned animals.
The 750 is set up for elk, maybe overkill for whitetail.  However this Year I hit a 4-5 year old deer high in the shoulder, had a good 8" of arrow penetration.  Unfortunately I rushed in to soon and jumped him given the amount of blood.
Never found his second bed so must of one lunged him as I tracked him a good ways before loosing the trail.  He's dead I am quite sure because he is well known on my cameras and 3 other properties, and hasn't been seen since.  

Long post but if it wasn't for my stupidity and pushing the deer to soon I am convinced he'd still be laying in that first bed dead as opposed to wounded only with a lighter arrow.

I would be curious to hear thoughts on sightsee's post.  Finding the sweet spot is easier said than done.

My bows seem to like the 10-12 grain per pound range.  My foc's are in the 18-22% range on my bows typically.

An accurate shooting arrow though is still most important.

Following the original post, I am only providing my 2 experiences where I've seen the potential.  Not really looking to debate either.  I'm not really not too far out of the realm of the a standard 10 gpi rule many trad guys use anyways.

I too am curious about Jim B's fletching performance.  They look cool.

Jim, few questions if you don't mind:
1) are those cap wraps?
2) using a burner to get that shape?
3) what is the gray band at the nock?

I think I know the answers, but I'd like to know for sure. BTW, those look great!
Thom

My way of figuring FOC is this.  Balance point measurement divided by arrow length measurement, then subtract .5 (1/2 arrow length)

29" arrow (valley of nock to back of point) with a balance point 22" from valley of nock would be:
22/29 = .7586
.7586 minus .5= .2586 or 25.86%

Just seems a little easier to my simple mind.

35%, way to go Jim B

Sam, no it is not necessary for whitetails imo, some of us love to tinker. As long as overall arrow weight and durability stays reasonable I can't find anything wrong with increased foc. Agree totally a good arrow tune is most important.

Per Sam, I guess what I really want to know is if you can accurately quantify the degree of performance improvement you have experienced and at what % of FOC these best results happened.

Sam I have not gone thru the process of quantifying improvements, after reading Dr. Ashby's studies I believe increased foc >20%  is beneficial as this is where he saw penetration gains begin in his studies.

Jackpine, yep a 10-12 gpp arrow, >20%foc and excellent tune would be my perfect arrow for North America.

Hermon, yes you can do the math or just plug in arrow length and balance point into Rob's calculator,  http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000089

Abe,I'm not sure my hearing is good enough to discern if they are quieter but they seem quiet to me.I should add,I acquired a 56" Caribow Wolverine and really like it.I could go higher on the FOC if I were willing to give up the wrap,which I really like and I'm positive I could go to a 2 1/2" AA fletch,without a hitch.

sticksnstones,they are Onestringer wraps that I cut to 4".I do burn the fletch.The gray band is 1/4" Easton Platinum footing.

I've started delving in this,in 2008 and have have built several dozen sets of arrows,most having more FOC than the one before.Once I got in the mid 20's,I started seeing a difference in stability,penetration and wind deflection.With each jump in FOC,these aspects were more apparent.This current set of arrows is the best of all.

Ashby has pointed out many times that this does also apply to bad hits on North American big game.A bad hit on a whitetail can involve 1/2" thick bone,similar in thickness to a water buffalo rib.I don't want to make bad hits and FOC etc is not a substitute for practicing and good shot placement,but an arrow setup that drastically increases penetration,without pulling an extra pound of bow weight,is a boon for me.

At 67,I'm not going to be able to increase bow weight any more.My current 50# setups,now penetrate better than my former 60# plus bows did with normal FOC,9-10 GPP arrows.They are also more stable in high winds which are always an issue,here in MT,especially in the open country where antelope,mule deer and whitetails are hunted.

I have tree stands where an elk,big black bear,moose or other big game may show up as likely as deer and I'd never hesitate to shoot at the largest of them,with my current arrows out of 50-53# bows and expect two holes but am trying for pass throughs on all shots.I believe,as Fred Bear did,that pass throughs can drastically shorten retrieval distances.

Thanks for the reply Jim. I'm still doing the hand cut feathers, but was thinking of setting up a burner since I'll need to do 3 dozen arrows in the next two months. I'd think the burner would be way faster and more consistent.

Personally I've given up on nock collars and wraps, just extra time and it moves the balance point in the wrong direction. I gotta say your arrows sure do look nice compared to mine!
Thanks for sharing!
Thom

Jim B
I don't want to give up on the wraps either. What do your nock collars weight?

Hey guys how are you getting such a high FOC, I am shooting one of Abe's longbows @49 with a FMJ  300 gr Tuffheads with a 100 grain insert. Arrows are 714 gr, and my foc is about 26. By the way the Car-Bow slynx I just bought is a beauty and a blast to shoot. I have only shoot recurves for the past 30 years. My arrows are 29.5 from throat of nock to end of shaft.

larry f....

Not to far in the distant past, there would be post of trad guys taking up to 2 years to develop such an arrow.

Today, the opportunity to achieve hi end range EFOC and possibly Ultra EFOC has been simplified by the introduction of much lower gpi stiffer arrows.

AN actual ex...HV350 shaft...28.5" shaft length...100 gn brass insert...300 gn BH... arrow tuned to of a 51# bow weighs in total 611 gns and have 31.5% FOC.

My results are the same as Scotts And Jims. I too am 67 years old and shoot 52 lbs. My arrows are 28.250  300 gr. point 100 gr. brass insert total weight 642 gr. GT ENTRADA 7.4 gr per inch 31.85 UEFOC. They are the most forgiving best wind bucking best penetrating  arrow I have shot in 46 years of bow hunting. Something magical happens when you reach 30% front of center. I get as good of penetration as I did when I shot 68 lbs. They are also more arrow dynamic and shoot flatter than the same weight arrow with less foc. TRY IT YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.

The above arrow is a 400 spine arrow

Thanks for the information on other shafts but what is an GT Entrada and a HV 350 shafts and where do you guys get them. One more question what do you use to cut the carbon shafts. The archery shop that I use to go to is closed down, just like a lot of other small retailers.

Larry F
When you have arrows that are under 7gr per inch it's much easier to get UEFOC.

JimB what do the nock collars weight on those arrows.I'm still using super glue and braid fishing line for my nock collars.

Thanks for the information,I will have to buy some different shafts in order to get UEFOC.

I'm about to order a new bow in the 55-60lb range at my draw length, 28". I'm thinking about using the Victory Rip XV shafts, but I don't see them in the Stu Miller calculator. I'm planning on using 250 grain screw in broadheads and then whatever insert/component combination gets me close to 10 grains per pound. This would put me in between the two setups Dennis502 is currently using on bows with poundage on either side of my new bow. My questions are which spine should I start with .300 or .350? And what are the tuning problems concerning efoc/uefoc arrows?

http://www.tuffhead.com/education/tuning%20the%20efoc%20shaft.html
Good read on tuning uefoc.

I would say the 350 spine for your draw length zor.

Thanks Katman, that was most helpful.

Latest try with uefoc. black eagle x-impact .400, 370 point/outsert, 30.16% foc, 605gr.

Glad winter is about done, running out of combo's I want to try, lol.

Is there any easy way to cut the carbon shafts without spending a bunch of money.
Thanks

QuoteOriginally posted by larry f:
Is there any easy way to cut the carbon shafts without spending a bunch of money.
Thanks

I have done many with a dremel tool with the cut-off wheel.  I then square up the ends on a belt sander.  Both the dremel and the sander have many uses beyond this so even if you have to acquire one or the other, it is money well spent.

BTW:  There isn't a job worth doing unless you can buy a tool for it :-)

I've learned so much from this thread guys!  Thanks to everyone that contributed.  One of the many reasons I love trad gang.

QuoteOriginally posted by larry f:
Is there any easy way to cut the carbon shafts without spending a bunch of money.
Thanks

Big Jim carries a mini Drill Master cut off saw. The blade is so tiny and cute at 2"! Ive got one I picked up at a big box hardware store, and I can tell you with the abrasive wheel, it gets the job done very well. I think its like $35-$50 if I remember right...

"JimB what do the nock collars weight on those arrows.I'm still using super glue and braid fishing line for my nock collars."

Abe,it's 1/4" of 2013 Platinum shaft,so,2.25 grains.

Building a EFOC some times can be a daunting and exhausting experience. Some archers have spent considerable time trying to achieve what they consider a  perfect arrow.  Others here have used the experience to have a better understanding of the sport that they love and trying to find the upper limits of their equipment .  

How far a person wants to carry this passion is up to the individual .

A person can use their existing arrows and experiment with using different points and feathers in order to improve FOC of the arrow they are already shooting. Any improvement in FOC that leads to improved flight or penetration will be a plus. Others may choose to start from scratch in order to attain a high UEFOC arrow for their hunting needs

I personally have spent a lot of time trying to learn about arrows,  I have and continue enjoy experimenting. There are some personal hints  or axioms that I pass on that may save frustration.  These hints are from my experience or others have shared with me .

1.First and foremost FOC can improve arrow flight and penetration in soft tissue. FOC does not according to Dr. Ashby studies increase penetration in bone. To breach bone the total arrow weight should approach or surpass 650 grains.  Weight of the arrow is the most critical criteria. Weight should not be replaced by FOC.  The ideal is trying to get 650 grains total weight with a high percentage of the total arrow weight in the arrow front. That is why they call it FOC.

 http://www.tuffhead.com/education/ashby2.html  

2. As mentioned By Abe Penner when selecting an arrow try and find one that is high in spine and low in weight /inch , This would be an arrow which you have a better chance of attaining a high FOC .

3 While the trend of arrow diameters is to "skinny" arrows which are good for penetration (less drag), They are not necessary to attain FOC .  if you use a broadhead that has Ferrule. large enough to make a hole for the arrow to follow through. Arrows referred to 5/16 and in lower range of weight per inch  work well.

A easy arrow to start building a UEFOC  with is Carbon express Max Red . They say the Max Red 250 and 350 will cover bows 40 lbs to 90 lbs .   http://www.carbonexpressarrows.com/archery/hunting-arrows/maxima--red--  

An arrow like that will allow a considerable range of variables. These arrows are approximately 5/16 O.D. and weigh 9grn. /inch for the MR-350 or less if using the MR-250.
There is some advantage to using a 5/16 arrow as there is a good selection of inserts and adaptors for this arrow. However, more are coming on to the market for the skinny arrows. There are several arrow manufactures mentioned in this thread all have proven to have benefits and show good FOC results. I only mention the Max Red as an arrow that I have found easy to tune If your draw length is at least 27 inches and you shoot a bow with 5o lbs draw weight probably the MR -350 will work at least that would be a place to start.

4.  Figure out what kind and weight broadhead you desire to use for all your hunting and build your arrow around that. Don't worry about over kill in your hunting arrow. Better to have too much arrow than not enough.

5. It is surprising how well a UEFOC arrows flies and arrows  700+ grains total weight can be shot accurately out to 30 yards ,or more ,depending on skill of the archer ,The loss of  trajectory in a UEFOC arrow is not as fast as most think.  

6. The ideal arrow for medium size game will have a UEFOC of 30 % plus and weigh around the 650 grain total weight.

7. The front of the arrow is not the only place to look when working on any FOC arrow. By removing knock collars, wraps and reducing the size and the number of feathers UEFOC can be raised several percentage points
One grain of weight removed from the rear of an arrow is the equivalent of adding 5 to 7 grains in the front. I was able to increase my UEFOC by 2% by removing the manufacture's knock collar, wrap and going to three 2.5 inch feathers. These are all potential places one can experiment.

8 Build the arrow front first than experiment on back portion testing just as when experimenting with front weight making adjustments slowly one at a time

9 .My personal arrow arrows are Carbon Express 250 or Max Red 350. They are cut to aprox. 30 .25 inches. My draw is 28" on a good day.

They have a 100 grain brass insert .... 75 grain adaptor....300 grain point ....and a 25 grain footing. A total weight of 500 grn. up front  and a total arrow weight of 760+_ grns.

I use no knock collars and no wrap. I use three 2.5 inch straight fletch A&A feathers.  My UEFOC is 32. 5 %

I use this arrow in multiple three-piece takedown longbows with equal accuracy.

A.   Cari-Bow Silver fox64' 54# 28 "
B.   Dryad – Orion ACS CG  64"  55#@28"
C.  Chuck Jones "Royal" 62 "  53 #@ 28


10. A good write up by Troy Breeding can be found at
 http://www.tuffhead.com/education/tuning%20the%20efoc%20shaft.html  

Follow Troy's methods and you will end up with a nice shooting arrow!

When cutting carbon arrows as asked by Larry Fischer a Dremel tool with a carbide wheel works great. Dremel sells the wheel as a accessories wit a arbor that could be used in a standard electric drill.


11. To calculate your FOC a calculator is available at

 http://www.tuffhead.com/education/formulas_FOC.html

Well I got a new bow recently and decided that I would try to build a UEFOC arrow for it from the start.  It is 45# @ 28" and I draw around 27"-27.5".  

I purchased some single shafts (Victory RIP and RIP XV) in 500, 400 and 350 spine.  My thinking was that the 500 would probably be to soft spine, and the 350 too stiff, and would probably end up using the 400 with whatever point weight it took to tune properly.  

The 500 was too soft with any significant amount of front weight just as I had suspected.  I then went to the 400 spine shafts.  I could not get rid of a nock high/left flight with several different points.  Even with the RIP with standard aluminum insert and points down to 175 grains.  

I then decided to get out the 350 spine RIP XV shaft and try it.  I had the Victory 60 grain stainless steel insert with a 100 grain brass insert behind it.  With a 225 grain point the arrow flew great.  I never would have thought that it would take that stiff an arrow out of a 47# bow.  Total arrow weight of the bare shaft is around 575 grains with a FOC of 31%.  

I am looking forward to shooting the bare shaft some more this weekend to confirm that the spine is correct and then fletching it up and trying it.  

This experiment had been fun so far.

Update.  Shot some more tonight and tried 300 grain points and felt like the flight was even better.  650 grains and about 34% FOC, 14 gpp.

How long is your arrow from the back of point to the throat of the nock?

29"

I realize one can eventually get an arrow with UEFOC for a fairly lightweight bow, say a 46#er +/- a couple of pounds but question the wisdom of doing so. My thinking is that the extreme weight of the final product is too much resulting in unacceptable drop after only a few yards. I realize these arrows are used in hunting scenarios ranging in the 20 to 30 yard distance. Persoanlly, I want an arrow in the 11-12 gpp range with FOC of around 20%.

JMO for what it's worth.

David- you make a very good point.  I am not sure that I will end up hunting with such a heavy arrow but am just wanting to experiment with this and see for myself.  I have some 500 spine FMJ's that fly great out of this bow also that fit the specs you listed.

highlow-

High FOC numbers don't necessarily require high arrow weight. Note in my arrow "recipe" on page 3 of this thread that I'm at 27% with a relatively lightweight 450 grain total arrow weight. Using your 46# weight at 11-12 gpp, you could easily achieve a 30+% FOC.

Thanks Dennis. Will consult your "recipe". Sounds good.

I shoot 14 GPP arrows and like them.At 20 yds there's no noticeable  difference.There is a little difference at 25 yds.There is more at 30 but that's my point on distance.Like most,I rarely take 30 yard shots at game,but when I do,the point verifies my hold.At 25,the point is 4" under.

I started delving in to this stuff in 2008,when I was having shoulder issues and drew a coveted moose tag.I didn't get to try my first setup on a moose but there was a marked improvement on other game and in my own,off the cuff,penetration tests.

I got rid of my 60-66# bows and went to 50-53# ones.With a combination of heavy arrows,high FOC and 2 blade,single bevel broadheads.I'm getting at least twice the penetration that I did with the 60+# bows,possibly more.I haven't tested the 35% FOC for penetration,alongside my older sets yet but there is a visible difference in targets.

The trajectory and speed wouldn't suit some but I got used to it in one shooting session and the gains in stability,wind bucking capabilities and penetration are worth the tradeoff,especially at 67,as it's doubtful I'll ever go up in poundage.

I think the secret to shooting a UEFOC or heavy arrow is to practice with that weight arrow all the time. (Particular if you shoot instinctively.)    :)  
Jim B touched on this in his last post.

I know some shoot one arrow and bow set -up for 3-D and another for hunting. I have never seen the reasoning behind this unless 3-d is you main motivation or sport.
I guess my practice is all centered around the hunt. Keeping hunting  shoots to a reasonable distance and practice shots at longer distance helps a lot.