This is something I got into a discussion with a bowyer about and would like some of you guys opinions. I would love to see others thoughts.
so, back to the question, should a dry fire happen on your bow, what would you expect the string to do?
Would you want the string to break?
Or
Would you want it to stay intact?
I would also be interested in which one you thought would be easier on the bow.
I know there are a lot of SMART fellas on this forum so I was wondering if you wouldn't mind expressing your vote as well as why you voted that day.
I voted for staying intact. I have had several dry fires over the years, and have never had a string break, and never had damage to a bow. Each time it has happened to me, I have looked things over, then kept on shooting with the same string.
Bisch
I voted stay intact. I've had two dry fires, one with a 45lb recurve and another with a 60lb longbow. Both string survived and the bows had no damage done.
I may be wrong, but I would supposed that if a string did break and the bow sprung forward with all of that force, then it could possibly overstretch the bow in the wrong direction and cause some damage. Could that happen?
Once a string breaks, it is no longer available to absorb the energy of the limbs by stretching. Can't see that as being a good thing for the bow. JMHO.
QuoteOriginally posted by pdk25:
Once a string breaks, it is no longer available to absorb the energy of the limbs by stretching. Can't see that as being a good thing for the bow. JMHO.
Pat,
I can definitely see your point there. I have had a few dry fires. I have had both happen, the string break and the string not break, never had a bow mess up from it(at least not yet). When the strings would break, they never broke both strands, it would only be one and would still keep the bow at a slight brace and at the second bundle would slide due to there not being any counter tension.
I am not sure of what would be best. But I can definitely see both sides.
I know nothing about physics, so my opinion may not be worth much, but I would prefer the string to break. I have had a string break before with no bad results. When the string breaks, it absorbs some energy before it lets go, then when the limb fully extends, the remaining energy has to be absorbed. However, the energy is absorbed by the bow in stages. If the string remains intact, all energy is absorbed by the bow all at once, thus increasing the likelihood of limb failure. I will be glad to hear from the bowyers on this one.
I agree with Pat AND would add that the string keeps both limbs working together and operating in "normal". fashion. Sorry for quotes, but I didn't know how else to describe normal in a dry fire (not normal) situation.
In a mechanical system such as a bow, you want the energy dissipated in a controlled known way. If the opposite occurs and energy adds in the wrong way or place (harmonically for example), bad things could happen. For example all the energy my double in one limb as opposed to both or many variants in between.
Adding to the discussion,
if the string breaks at release, the limbs have a long way to travel, and they will travel past the "normal" mark changing the tension / compression stresses on the limbs, but eating up the energy by simply flexing back and forth. String breaking ( or not) at the normal spot puts a ton of pressure on the limb tips and the top section of each limb as it does at every shot). Not sure how "controlled" that is except that it happens at the same location within the bend. Pretty violent either way.
Not sure how I would see the string helping the limbs "work together" once a release is made as there is relative slack until it gets tight again at or near the end. It would seem the bow's tiller would see to any "togetherness" and changing tension on the string holding fingers or a sloppy release can and will change some of this momentarily.
I am also thinking that the outcome is also very dependent upon bow design with ASL / heavier limbed longbows better able (in my mind at least) to hold together and dissipate the additional forces than some heavily reflexed, lighter ( thinner) limbed recurve.
I guess I would hope for no dry fire at all.
I too am waiting to hear from those that are technically advanced in this particular area for better answers / questions than I can supply.
CHuckC
Don't know what's supposed to happen other than I've witnessed dozens of dry fires over the past few decades at shoots, etc. and I've never seen a string break.
I know a bowyer who recommends B50 for new shooters in case a dry fire happens it stretches more and will hopefully do less damage to the bow.
I dry fired a bow trying out a new split finger tab that didn't have enough room for wood arrow nocks. Crapped my pants a little. Threw the tab in the trash and was nervous for a few shots but the bow is fine.
I had a dry fire once and the string snapped completely in two. The brass knock put a significant dent in the back of the riser. Luckily that was the only thing that happened! So I would have to agree with Pat and say intact to help absorb some of the energy
Because of the way the question was worded, I chose "If I had a dry fire, I would want (expect) my string to break." This is different from asking "Would you rather have a dry fire because your string broke or because of some other reason, like an arrow nock breaking."
I would prefer, if I had a dry fire, for the string to remain intact until it reached brace height, and then break under the force of the dry fire. To me, this is like asking, if you fell out of a building, would you rather fall into a tree and then hit the ground, or fall directly onto the ground? I think the string breaking as the bow reached brace height would take some of the sting out of the dry fire.
If my choices were to have a dry fire because the string broke at full draw or because an arrow nock fractured, I would pick that I would rather have an arrow nock fracture and the string remain intact, for the reasons others have stated above.
Never really thought about it. I've had a few dry fires over the years, seen tons more, but never had a string break or saw one break on a dry fire. IMO, if a string breaks on a dry fire, it's not a safe string--very likely it's going to break anyway sooner or later with regular shooting.
That being said...I haven't had a bow delaminate on me over a dry fire, so I'll vote for it to stay intact.
Daniel funny you should post now
Never had a dry fire with conventional bows. Only one with a hot rod wheelie & I know what caused it. What are the things to watch out for with re curves and long bows? Thanks. Ken
Good thoughts Chuck, and what I was referring to was towards the end of the cycle and in rereading my post I a wasn't clear about that at all.
What I want is this whole messy affair to stop in as orderly of manner as possible. The string IMO would aid that.
QuoteOriginally posted by kenneth butler:
Never had a dry fire with conventional bows. Only one with a hot rod wheelie & I know what caused it. What are the things to watch out for with re curves and long bows? Thanks. Ken
Have had several dry fires, and all resulted from either fractured nocks or the nock slipping off the string. I have been examining my nocks for cracks since the last dry fire, and have replaced several that might have fractured later on. As John said, keeping nocks snug should prevent them from slipping off the string. Also, don't get in the habit of touching the arrow with your bowhand finger as you draw the bow, or you can pull the nock off the string as you draw the bow.
Exactly right about the habit of putting the bow hand finger next to the arrow as a guide, bad, bad, juju!
Dave,
everyone would rather hit a tree first! haha!
I don't know that i've ever seen one break at full draw. I have had a couple that once the bow hit brace, they broke due to nock slipping off. I would have to say that I agree the most with ChuckC. I think the string breaking at brace would absord a lot of the energy. In my experience, i've never had one break both strands. It only snapped one and the other one still maintained a little bit of brace.
A bowyer was just telling me how some materials weren't supposed to be used on his bows because of how they would break or not should a dry fire happen.
It got my little rat to turning.
let em grow Dave, yup, was a bit confusing. And realize, I am just guessing out loud, I have no materials engineering background to be able to figure out all the stresses involved.
ChuckC
Chuck...so am I but a fun noodle on a Friday. Thanks Daniel!
I had a dry fire recently due to loose nock fit. Five of ten strands of an endless loop string broke between the serving and lower limbs tip. No damage to the bow. So, I voted no break but really don't know which event would be least likely to result in damage.
Monterey... did they break where you might expect long term wear (under the nock impact area) or elsewhere ? Could you tell ?
I have had a few broken nocks resulting in something like a dry fire. Once, the string broke under the limb tip and I ended up with a pretty bad crack in my riser The string wasn't that old, but the grooves had always been a little sharper than I liked. Nonetheless, I felt bad as I had the bow for a long time.
I had one dry fire due to a nock breaking, and I had a string break at full draw. Based on the excitement these caused, I voted for the string to stay intact. Both of these were with the same bow, a 66 lb. recurve. When the string broke, something, maybe the brass nock point, put a small ding in the riser, and the broken string whipped my arm pretty good.
I want to never have to find out. Never had a dry fire and never intend to.
DDave
I've seen / had my fair share of dry fires over the last 50 years. Most resulted in no damage, but would say a least a dozen bows have been ruined by this. Most of the bows from lesser brand names and used. With that said, one has no idea of the bow history. Has it been dry fired previously? Stored in a hot car, or a attic? As far as string breakage have had that also, but only on worn strings. I shoot a lot and replace the string yearly if not sooner.
Intact for sure, I've had a few and the one that did damage the string broke and my ILF limbs landed between me and target.
I have been shooing for about 34-35 years with about 30 years with a stick bow and have never had a dry fire. I check my arrows all the time while shooting and not shooting, I also check my bows.
It just takes a few minutes and it can make a difference.
QuoteOriginally posted by ChuckC:
Monterey... did they break where you might expect long term wear (under the nock impact area) or elsewhere ? Could you tell ?
One strand broke at the bottom of the serving and the rest broke midway between the bottom of the serving and the loop.
Unless the string is in terrible shape I wouldn't expect it to break. I've had 3-4 dry-fires w/ both recurves and LBs without consequence.
I've seen where guys have dry-fired their compounds and they did not fare so well. A lot more stress on those wheelie bows.
I was not as lucky as some here. A couple years ago I had a dry fire from a broken nock on a woodie. I brought the bow in the house to look it over. I pulled it back to just about my anchor and the handle broke in half at the throat in the grip. My chest was black and blue and very sore but it could of been much worse. The bowyer told me that he had only had 3 riser failures since 93 and it was all the same batch of diamondwood. Had a string on a one piece Dale Dye break in half at the nock. Scared the heck out of me but that bow is still going strong.
I have about a 26" draw plus a bit. A dry fire for me with a longbow is not as big a deal as a dry fire for someone with a 31" draw on a high performance recurve.
Even though I have a handful of bow, the grip pressure is fairly light at full draw. when I was using Stotler nocks with my first fast flight strings, I had a couple and the bow flew out of my hand both times with no damage other than dirt in the string grove.
I have had a few dry fires with different bows. No harm done to any of them. Every single one was due to sloppy nock fit. I had thinned the nock to the point where they popped off the string if you tapped the nock. However, after some shooting the nock becomes too loose.
I am going to have to leave a little tighter, I guess.
The only broken string I have seen was when I was about 9 or ten. I was watching my dad shoot his 56# recurve. The string broke snapped be across my face. Man, that stung.