Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: forestdweller on January 24, 2017, 02:03:00 PM
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Anyone else feel the same way?
I see a lot of posts on other archery websites and a lot of people are talking about how they need to shoot these bow's that are very high tech and very fast to hunt and it's kind of odd to me.
Talks of the latest super recurves with carbon foam laminated limbs, clickers, magnesium alloy bow quivers, and the latest small diameter light tapered carbon shafts with lumnocks and so forth and so on.
I'm not going to name names but some of these bows could easily be mistaken for a compound.
What's really odd as well is that if you take the fastest modern traditional bows and put them up against the best selfbows (that I'm aware of) and the difference in speed is maybe 10fps (I could very well be wrong on this number but it's within 10-20fps) between a selfbow and a carbon/glass laminated bow.
Does anyone else feel the same way? That modern traditional is becoming (or has become) high tech like compound?
This post was not intended to berate anyone but is just my opinion.
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For years I fought going to "the dark side" using carbon arrows... Then after trying some at a 3D shoot, I was hooked...
I still have limited range for hunting, as should we all... That being said:
This guy does see some trad people holding onto the high tech compound way of thinking... Maybe the latest bow or bells can help them shoot better... I think not always...
Looking at "trad" catalogs sometimes makes my head spin... Sales are sales, I guess... I Love Traditional Archery and Shooting My Longbows! Mostly keeping it interesting and fun... So, if someone (needs) that high tech stuff, let 'em have it... You and I are just gonna have a blast getting better!
... mike ... :archer2: ...
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You've got your numbers a bit off.
A few years back a member here that hunts with a selfbow made a similar statement. He shot a 60# bow and 600 gr arrows with a 28" draw and was getting 160 fps. A very nice shooting selfbow.
We had a customer ask about the setup the following day so we set up a test without showing the poundage of the bow.
Our bow shot the same 600 gr arrow drawn to 28" 162 fps. So pretty close. Then we weighed the bow at 42 pounds.
Unless you are shooting a selfbow that you built yourself with cane or shoot arrows you are utilizing modern tech. You just have to determine how much you want.
Mike
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60 years ago there was nothing wrong with trying out the latest sight or release or rest on your recurve. IT WAS COMMON. The line was crossed with the industry promotion and the Fish & Game departments acceptance of the compound as a "bow", which it isn't.
Today's "traditional" archers messing with materials and tweaking designs is nothing more than an extension of what had been going on all along.
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that's the beauty of what archery it is, its individual and whatever you want it to be. My bow is an extension of what my personality is. I feel when you look at my bow you can see who I am.
I could care less what the guy next to me is shooting. As long as he isn't cheating on regulations or laws. So be it.
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Originally posted by Travisc406:
that's the beauty of what archery it is, its individual and whatever you want it to be. My bow is an extension of what my personality is. I feel when you look at my bow you can see who I am.
I could care less what the guy next to me is shooting. As long as he isn't cheating on regulations or laws. So be it.
Couldn't agree more.
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Even with the new materials, ILF bows, etc. I haven't seen one that could be said to be remotely akin to a compound.
Advances are to be expected in any field of manufacture. It's just the nature of the beast. I'll bet you're not driving a twenty-five year old car, are you.
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It's all a personal preference. On my wall I have bows that were hand made by myself, beautiful customs by top bowyers and bows that sport aggressive high tech limbs on a meticulously designed metal riser built for max accuracy.
I have hand made wood arrows, aluminums and carbons of all shapes and sizes popping out of every corner of my shop.
I'll be honest, the last few years I've been on an accuracy and tech kick, and I am having fun pushing the envelope of the rules and my abilities on the competition front. However, when the leaves turn color, my set up becomes scrutinized and the tune recipe maximized for robustness in the woods. Bomb-proof, forgiving, and reliable is what I'm after.
Trad is not a word to describe equipment. It's a lifestyle. And I'm pretty sure every member that had the ambition to join TradGang lives that lifestyle, regardless of what their bow is made of or looks like. Stop drawing self defining lines in the sand and go shoot some arrows. The camp fire is open to everyone.
(A recent picture after a full blown retuning session of my rig)
(http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af200/mzirnsak/030DEAA0-4C3F-42D4-9C57-2D5206B8DD65.jpg) (http://s1007.photobucket.com/user/mzirnsak/media/030DEAA0-4C3F-42D4-9C57-2D5206B8DD65.jpg.html)
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I don't know if I'd call it high tech. I believe it's just part of the natural progression of things. Look how far cars have come, for better or worse, we're human and we're always tinkering.
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Everything is simple till its complicated.
String your stick at a brace height that works for you add a nocking point that solves porpoise and shoot bow, simple. Get arrows that fly nice to your confidence with the weight of point you like and go shoot, simple;
Everything else complicated.
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For a sport to be a sport it has to have a set of well defined limitations. With hunting, there is an entirely added set of variables. Much of the new tech and shooting techniques are target based. Perhaps the ilf bows help certain shooting styles, but on the whole the bow design changes are designed around the limitations of those shooting styles. I did a lot of target shooting in my younger years, but abandoned it all because it did not match my hunting. I believe that hunters are pushing the margins of intrusiveness with long term tree stand claims and satellite linked trail cameras on public land. I am pushing for the limitation of 'leave no trace' use of all public lands.
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Progress is debatable. But business is business. The more businesses crowd into a niche, the more they have to differentiate themselves by offering something new. Otherwise, margins get compressed. But they ultimately die if nobody buys their stuff. So the problem isn't really the equipment. It's our neomania. New & shiny gets our attention & we keep buying it. If we changed our mentality and suddenly started valuing homemade equipment and disciplined skill over fancy gear, we'd start seeing staves sold at Home Depot & coaching gurus in every city. It's hard for me to see the issue apart from our cultural & business context.
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Originally posted by pavan:
I am pushing for the limitation of 'leave no trace' use of all public lands.
I could get behind that!
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I have been told three times that there was no place for us to hunt on public land because one or two guys loaded it up with their tree stands. In NW Iowa, the land that has a Pope and Young buck hiding behind every tree, guys are showing up with pick up loads of tree stands and trail cameras and then telling people to stay away from their spots. Almost every year the game warden tells me, a still hunt hunter and portable seat carrier, that I cannot kick people out of my tree stands, when I do not use any. He has yet to tell any of the land hoarders that same thing. So now I am raising hell at the state level, I did it before and we got a tree stand law. That law needs serious modifications, considering the changes in hunters equipment and land use. The problem when land and game management gets political, money talks louder than reason.
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Originally posted by Travisc406:
that's the beauty of what archery it is, its individual and whatever you want it to be. My bow is an extension of what my personality is. I feel when you look at my bow you can see who I am.
I could care less what the guy next to me is shooting. As long as he isn't cheating on regulations or laws. So be it.
Pretty much word for word what I was going to type. Shoot what you want, and don't worry about what others do.....that's my feelings!
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It would be interesting to hear Fred Bear's take on this. After all, he was pretty much "leading edge" in his bow designs and materials and also built an early compound. Still, most Trad Gangers would consider him a "traditional" bow hunter.
I am in the process of ordering a flintlock - an early Isaac Haynes style. I like traditional. I don't own an AR, liking my smooth, graceful bolt action rifles much more.
I don't own a compound bow, so I think my tastes are pretty well established. At the same time, I don't expect to see any Olympic archers shooting self bows. Nice thing about living in this country of ours, we can probably find a group with similar likes and dislikes and can pursue those interests as far as we wish to take them.
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Why should anyone care what kind of trad bow anyone else chooses to shoot?
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Originally posted by forestdweller:
I'm not going to name names but some of these bows could easily be mistaken for a compound.
What?
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Originally posted by cpnhgnlngct:
It's all a personal preference. On my wall I have bows that were hand made by myself, beautiful customs by top bowyers and bows that sport aggressive high tech limbs on a meticulously designed metal riser built for max accuracy.
I have hand made wood arrows, aluminums and carbons of all shapes and sizes popping out of every corner of my shop.
I'll be honest, the last few years I've been on an accuracy and tech kick, and I am having fun pushing the envelope of the rules and my abilities on the competition front. However, when the leaves turn color, my set up becomes scrutinized and the tune recipe maximized for robustness in the woods. Bomb-proof, forgiving, and reliable is what I'm after.
Trad is not a word to describe equipment. It's a lifestyle. And I'm pretty sure every member that had the ambition to join TradGang lives that lifestyle, regardless of what their bow is made of or looks like. Stop drawing self defining lines in the sand and go shoot some arrows. The camp fire is open to everyone.
(A recent picture after a full blown retuning session of my rig)
(http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af200/mzirnsak/030DEAA0-4C3F-42D4-9C57-2D5206B8DD65.jpg) (http://s1007.photobucket.com/user/mzirnsak/media/030DEAA0-4C3F-42D4-9C57-2D5206B8DD65.jpg.html)
Well said!
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To each his own threshold, and to thy own selfbow be true.
;)
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Well the original poster said it himself, if the difference between extremely modern bows and extremely primitive selfbow is negligible then the answer is no, technology has not advanced to a point to make a great difference in traditional archery.
I've started shooting a Selfbow seriously recently and it has cut my effective range by about 10 yards (from 30 to 20 yards) so yes it's tougher to use the selfbow but it still traditional archery either way.
You would be hard-pressed to put a modern recurve that shoots 195 ft./s-ish next to a modern compound that shoots over 300 ft./s and has 90% or more light off
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I might add, for those of you old fogeys who often compare traditional equipment to compounds and don't see in advantage one over the other, you need to go shoot a top-of-the-line compound, it will blow your mind how different compound technology is from even just 10 or 15 years ago.
Hand shock is nonexistent in these bows, let off is ridiculous, draw cycle is unbelievable, and overall stability and balance is beyond anything that could've been imagined in the 90s
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I don't know...there's only so much you can do to a single string bow. If you change the materials or, even mount a sight, it's still a bow and it's still not all that easy to be good with.
I've tried my hand at building self bows with limited success, I just bought an ILF (plain Jane wood riser)...******** trident.
And, I just came in from shooting may "canoe bow". It's a short little solid glass job with a molded plastic handle marked 40# @ 28".
The thing I put the most effort/investment into is my own skill. When I do my job well I can hit the target with just about any bow. From there I can shoot what I like.
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Originally posted by pavan:
I have been told three times that there was no place for us to hunt on public land because one or two guys loaded it up with their tree stands. In NW Iowa, the land that has a Pope and Young buck hiding behind every tree, guys are showing up with pick up loads of tree stands and trail cameras and then telling people to stay away from their spots. Almost every year the game warden tells me, a still hunt hunter and portable seat carrier, that I cannot kick people out of my tree stands, when I do not use any. He has yet to tell any of the land hoarders that same thing. So now I am raising hell at the state level, I did it before and we got a tree stand law. That law needs serious modifications, considering the changes in hunters equipment and land use. The problem when land and game management gets political, money talks louder than reason.
That sure rings a bell.
I have several state WMA's close to home and one that's real close.
Starting in September the place is loaded with tree stands. I don't have anything against tree stands but these guys are homesteading!. LOL
Especially on the weekend, I'm afraid to go into the woods for fear that I'll mess things up for one of the homesteaders.
You can't go "way back in there" because there is no such thing. They've cut access trails (or whatever they are) everywhere.
I just haven't been able to learn how to enjoy hunting such a place. I need to because I don't have much else to hunt. I just don't feel like I'm hunting when I'm there.
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Should be room for everybody. If a person is happy hunting or competing with a homemade self bow, he probably won't be happy hunting or competing with a modern recurve, and vice versa.
Just like when my wife and I go backpacking. She carries a split bamboo fly rod and flies she made herself, and I carry a factory made spinning rod and lures. Neither of us would be happy using the other's gear. Some people are unhappy with both of us because we fish to eat, rather than catch and release. I think people would be happier in general if they paid more attention to their own business and less to mine!
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I wonder what difference it makes.
All of the bow hunters I know locally use a compound. Most of them have never shot a "trad" bow and I'm sure that none of them have any idea where I'm "coming from". LOL
Can I brag a little? We have to be careful about doing that on some of these forums because we have some accomplished shooters (I'm really not one of them) and we have some VERY accomplished hunters and I'm not really one of those either. LOL
I work with several "bowhunters" who all use compounds and crossbows. All of them are from farm families and they have lots of great land to hunt...while I have nothing of the sort.
This year I'm the only one of the bunch to legally take a buck during bow season. I have to stress "LEGALLY" because folks around here kill deer all the time. They kill them when they want and how they want.
I became something of a celebrity with my daughters in-laws (compound and crossbow hunters all) because I took mine with a "longbow". It was an Omega Delta (3 piece take-down).
I just shoot what I like and hunt how I like. I just wish I had more and/or better places to hunt.
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Well I'm glad that we could get a good discussion going! I'm starting to get cabin fever and have not been able to shoot as much as I normally do and I was debating making this post as I did not want to seem disrespectful.
Some interesting things were brought up so far though. I definitely do believe each archer should go their own way.
My path of progression has been an interesting one.
I started out shooting a glass recurve with aluminum arrows with the intention of learning Olympic style archery. I then learned to shoot instinctive ( did not know that it existed) and learned about Byron and Hill and took the rest of my bow and started to shoot off the shelf.
I then became very interested in the longbow and bought my first glass longbow some time after that. I then decided I wanted to start to learn how to make my own bows and bought a plank of wood from home depot, made my first bow and I am now hooked and want to make my own wooden arrows and selfbows.
It seems like the better I get shooting wise and the more progress I make the more I am regressing in terms of how minimalist and simpler my equipment becomes.
I most definitely have a lot of respect for the bowyers that are pushing the limits with their glass/carbon/foam bow designs and it's good to see them able to make a living that has to deal with traditional archery. One can only dream to do what they are doing.
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Originally posted by forestdweller:
Well
It seems like the better I get shooting wise and the more progress I make the more I am regressing in terms of how minimalist and simpler my equipment becomes.
That's something I can relate too.
It might be counter intuitive but simple tools usually require more skill on the part of the user.
A hammer is one of the best examples I can think of. A really simple tool, right? But, as farrier and blacksmith of going on 40 years I'll tell you that very few really know how to use one...I'm still trying. LOL
The tool is simple but the skill is complex. The same is true with a bow. The bow (the kind we shoot), being a "simple machine", is a little more complex than a hammer but still requires significant skill to be used well.
If you have the knowledge and skill, you can make a decent bow from a tree branch. If you have the knowledge and skill, you can hit your target with it.
What do you really own, or have control over in this world? IMO, only what's in your head and in your own hands.
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Originally posted by Travisc406:
that's the beauty of what archery it is, its individual and whatever you want it to be. My bow is an extension of what my personality is. I feel when you look at my bow you can see who I am.
I could care less what the guy next to me is shooting. As long as he isn't cheating on regulations or laws. So be it.
I agree.
I like to think regardless of what we shoot. We're all on the same team.
Saying that you won't say names, appears divisive to me, but I could be wrong.
I use a clicker, so if you feel like you're more of a traditional hunter than me, because you don't use a clicker, congratulations.
Us clicker guys may be the bottom feeders of the trad world, but we're still above the guys that shoot the super recurves with carbon foam laminated limbs. :goldtooth:
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As long as it's hand drawn hand held without any mechanical advantage I'm in.
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To each his own. It does not matter what anyone else thinks about a given archer's choice of equipment. Some lean toward more modern, and some prefer to remain very low tech, but it remains an individual choice. It seems a bit of a pissing contest to say that this or that is more appropriately traditional than some other set up. I don't mean to be offensive, but this is, in my opinion, a senseless debate. Just pick up your bow and shoot it!
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The fact is that as long as we are railing against technological advances in the archery world then we really need to realize that by having some of those same materials and technology in our chosen bows then we're just being hypocritical.
Foam cores, carbon fiber limbs, aluminum risers, IFL limb pockets, etc....
These are all highly advanced materials or construction methods that, while they still are more challenging than a compound bow, we're only fooling ourselves by claiming to be more righteous than the wheel bow guys.
We can't attack those that use other means to bow hunt. That includes various compounds, lever bows and even x-bows. It makes us no better than whacked out liberal tree huggers that claim to be "better" because they only eat vegetables or only store bought meat.
We don't have to like those methods.
We don't have to use them.
But we do have to at least live with them or be just a bunch of hypocrites.
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I draw my line in the sand well below what is available, in terms of technology, and I seem to be reverting. But... that is simply my line and should affect nobody else.
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Originally posted by forestdweller:
Anyone else feel the same way?
NO!!!!!!
Bisch
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What's high tech to one guy might not be to another. I bet guys 60years ago would've take any advantage they had. They shot wood arrows and made they're bows by hand. We call it traditional but I think they would've used whatever they could to make them better. I don't think we should discuss what high tech with all the xbows and xguns and all this "trophy" hunting ruining our sport. If someone said something to me about shooting carbons I would just laugh. Come on really
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I've shot with guys carrying compounds and simple selfbows. I didn't worry about what they were shooting and really could care less if they worried about what I carried.
Shoot what you like , but please don't look down on folks who don't shoot exactly the same stuff as you. :)
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Forestdweller, I have yet to see a recurve or longbow that could easily be mistaken for a compound. :saywhat: I don't get my panties in a wad about whatever material is used for bows or arrows. Wheels are a completely different animal, but I have no issue with guys who prefer or need for some reason to shoot them. To each his/her own.
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Originally posted by mgf:
Originally posted by forestdweller:
Well
It seems like the better I get shooting wise and the more progress I make the more I am regressing in terms of how minimalist and simpler my equipment becomes.
That's something I can relate too.
It might be counter intuitive but simple tools usually require more skill on the part of the user.
A hammer is one of the best examples I can think of. A really simple tool, right? But, as farrier and blacksmith of going on 40 years I'll tell you that very few really know how to use one...I'm still trying. LOL
The tool is simple but the skill is complex. The same is true with a bow. The bow (the kind we shoot), being a "simple machine", is a little more complex than a hammer but still requires significant skill to be used well.
If you have the knowledge and skill, you can make a decent bow from a tree branch. If you have the knowledge and skill, you can hit your target with it.
What do you really own, or have control over in this world? IMO, only what's in your head and in your own hands. [/b]
To your point, it's not the simple hammer ( or the bow), it's the farrier ( archer's) skill. That said, a really good archer will shoot most bows well. Compound, ILF recurve, custom longbow or self bow. Form is everything!
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Originally posted by BlacktailBowhunter:
Originally posted by Travisc406:
that's the beauty of what archery it is, its individual and whatever you want it to be. My bow is an extension of what my personality is. I feel when you look at my bow you can see who I am.
I could care less what the guy next to me is shooting. As long as he isn't cheating on regulations or laws. So be it.
I use a clicker, so if you feel like you're more of a traditional hunter than me, because you don't use a clicker, congratulations.
Us clicker guys may be the bottom feeders of the trad world, but we're still above the guys that shoot the super recurves with carbon foam laminated limbs. :goldtooth: [/b]
I know you must not feel this way, but no one is better than another. Trad archers who shoot wood bows as well as the greats like Fred Bears, Etal, are no better than those who use clicker or fancy ILF bows with foam core limbs.
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Originally posted by Soonerlongbow:
....as long as we are railing against technological advances in the archery world...
But some of us simply use what we enjoy and don't spend a bit of time railing against other equipment or those that use it.
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There's little respect for the idea of old school traditional anymore, primitive archery is the closest thing left and the rest is procrastination at it's finest. No rules, no limits and no sense of keeping it simple.
Easy Peezy Archery...the practical alternative to traditional.
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The journey we are on is also a journey away from something.
Focusing on the fulfillment filters out the noise of distraction.
Worries will not undo the sufferings of tomorrow yet will sap the strength of today.
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A large percentage of hunters will always use the most advanced/easiest killing weapon permitted. Those hunters are the ones that will determine how long your seasons are. I'm not with the school of thought that all hunters should stick together. I think we have a duty to care about what others hunt with in archery season. And promote traditional bows when possible.
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Originally posted by longbow fanatic 1:
Originally posted by BlacktailBowhunter:
Originally posted by Travisc406:
that's the beauty of what archery it is, its individual and whatever you want it to be. My bow is an extension of what my personality is. I feel when you look at my bow you can see who I am.
I could care less what the guy next to me is shooting. As long as he isn't cheating on regulations or laws. So be it.
I use a clicker, so if you feel like you're more of a traditional hunter than me, because you don't use a clicker, congratulations.
Us clicker guys may be the bottom feeders of the trad world, but we're still above the guys that shoot the super recurves with carbon foam laminated limbs. :goldtooth: [/b]
I know you must not feel this way, but no one is better than another. Trad archers who shoot wood bows as well as the greats like Fred Bears, Etal, are no better than those who use clicker or fancy ILF bows with foam core limbs. [/b]
Complete sarcasm. I've got friends and family that hunt with every weapon under the sun, and I will hunt with a compound and rifle depending on the target animal. Trad is my favorite, but I'm only as trad as I want to be and could care less what other people think about my chosen weapon. I have an awesome group of friends that hunt with various disciplines.
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Originally posted by Travisc406:
that's the beauty of what archery it is, its individual and whatever you want it to be. My bow is an extension of what my personality is. I feel when you look at my bow you can see who I am.
I could care less what the guy next to me is shooting. As long as he isn't cheating on regulations or laws. So be it.
Yeah, this! Only definitions I apply are for evening the playing field in tournament's!
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I shoot what I like and applaud folks for shooting what they like. No need to put other archers/hunters down.
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Just at first sight, a Bear takedown assembly looks way more high tech than an ILF connection assembly.
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Originally posted by forestdweller:
Anyone else feel the same way?
I see a lot of posts on other archery websites and a lot of people are talking about how they need to shoot these bow's that are very high tech and very fast to hunt and it's kind of odd to me.
Talks of the latest super recurves with carbon foam laminated limbs, clickers, magnesium alloy bow quivers, and the latest small diameter light tapered carbon shafts with lumnocks and so forth and so on.
I'm not going to name names but some of these bows could easily be mistaken for a compound.
What's really odd as well is that if you take the fastest modern traditional bows and put them up against the best selfbows (that I'm aware of) and the difference in speed is maybe 10fps (I could very well be wrong on this number but it's within 10-20fps) between a selfbow and a carbon/glass laminated bow.
Does anyone else feel the same way? That modern traditional is becoming (or has become) high tech like compound?
This post was not intended to berate anyone but is just my opinion.
No.
This debate has been started and finished numerous times over.
Your numbers are off.
Been shooting Longbows and recurves for 35 years...never seen one that looks like a compound.
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Bows are not becoming too high tech for my tastes.
I shoot what I want without influence by others. Sometimes I shoot a compound and a recurve during the same session. Did this week in fact.
Some times I feel like a nut, some times I don't.
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The technology in compounds is light years ahead of any technology we would use on stickbows.
Always has been and always will be
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The latest compound technology is always based from the stand point of taking the human or athletic quotient out of the game. Lots of folks will go for the process, follow these simple mechanical steps and arrows go where you want them to. The latest compounds with all of the gizmos is not really much different than a crossbow. With the crossbow you still have to physically go through all of that work to cock it and actually need to put the arrow on the string yourself, and you need to do that every time. It's exhausting. And if that's not all , those things don't carry them selves, you have to do it. A growing number of manly men around here are getting past needing to use those horrible compounds, by having chiropractors and doctor sign a slip that says they have an ouchy shoulder, then they get to hunt with crossbows. The one thing that the area modern shooters have proven is that they can shoot little red spots. Their hit to find ratio on deer is not very impressive, in fact it is an embarrassment.
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The bridge from Compound to Crossbow is miniscule compared to the bridge from any recurve/longbow to compound comparatively.
Shooting a selfbow or "high tech" recurve, using fingers and no sighting apparatus...are identical, because they both rely 100% on the shooters skill and athletic ability.
I shoot trad because anything else, and I might as well just wait for firearm deer season.
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Yet numerous recurve bow makers now advertise AMO speeds approaching 300fps, granted with light weight twig like arrows. Point is, as long as we're trying to be high and mighty claiming moral and ethical superiority while slinging skinny arrows from carbon fiber bows we're being hypocritical at worst and elitist snobs quite likely.
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Originally posted by Soonerlongbow:
Yet numerous recurve bow makers now advertise AMO speeds approaching 300fps, granted with light weight twig like arrows.
Please enlighten us with examples!!! AMO speed is determined with a set arrow weight at a set draw weight and a set draw length.
Bisch
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Why can't people let others enjoy what they like about our sport. The only hypocritical and elitist snobs are the ones that try to push their way of thinking on you. How come primitive archers can get along with laminated bow archers? Seriously, live and let live folks. Division among us will be the death of us... were not discussing the difference between a crossbow and longbow, there is a definite line there, you're saying if I shoot limbs with a foam core or carbon lamination's that I am not a true traditional bowhunter and you're above me... don't worry, I won't share a hunting camp with you.
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Soonerlongbow, I've never seen any bowyer claim 300fps from a trad bow let alone "numerous". 200fps maybe (& supported by a chrono) but never 300. Hopefully that was a typo.
Regardless of technology, Compounds and trad bows aren't even in the same category anymore as far as I'm concerned.
I shoot both and hunt with both
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More accurate to say several. Alaska Bowhunting Suppy is one of them. I've seen other as well, typically majority carbon construction or similar.
As Luv2Bowhunt said, live and let live.
I say hunt and let hunt.
I don't give two hoots as to how a hunter hunts. More accurately, when our chosen weapon was the dominant type it literally was the state of the art. Well the art has advanced.
Hunt and let hunt.
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I don't think you know what you are talking about. You certainly know little regarding the history of "traditional archery." Clickers have been around longer than you've been a bowhunter, I bet. I guess you have never heard of the magnesium-handled Bear take down bow. I seriously doubt your figures on comparing bow speeds between a tricked out trad recurve and a selfbow. Not buying your numbers at all. Made up news like Trump talks about. You can play the "I'm more traditional than you!" game all you like. I am not impressed.
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I have had lots of discussions through the years with folks about why i choose to shoot traditional. And my answer always goes something like "its what I like and it is fun to me but you do what you want". I mean I think its safe to say that most of us like or love to hunt but ultimately it is a hobby and our future or the future of our families or their next meal don't truly depend on it. And I can guarantee that if my life or family was depending on it I would dust off the old bolt action. Makes me think of the old saying, Necessity is the mother of invention.
Just my two cents which might be worth two bits.
C
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Personally don't care if you like the figures, nor do I personally give a hoot if someone hunts with anything out there. It's about choice. It's about what you personally choose to harvest game with. The holier than thou attitude isn't coming from me. Still rifle hunt, even a suppressed rifle at that.
Maybe I didn't put it right earlier. I'm not a either/or guy, I'm an all the above guy. Use a compound if you choose, xbow if that's your ticket. If using a self bow you built yourself with arrows you harvest from the creek bank, more power to you!
But we as hunters have to stick together no matter what we choose to hunt with.
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Originally posted by Soonerlongbow:
More accurate to say several. Alaska Bowhunting Suppy is one of them. I've seen other as well, typically majority carbon construction or similar.
Again, please show us a recurve bow with a 300fps AMO speed. I do not believe that bow exists!
And btw, I do agree with you that we should stick together, and quit worrying about whose stuff is better!
Bisch
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Originally posted by Bisch:
Again, please show us a recurve bow with a 300fps AMO speed. I do not believe that bow exists!
Black Swan claims their bow shoots 300fps IBO (not AMO). IBO tests speed at 70 lbs, 5gpp, 30" draw.
web page (http://blackswanarchery.com/#/home)
Do I believe it? No.
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Hey Sooner. Just went to Alaska Bowhunting Supply and they don't even carry bows. Broadheads, yes. Really, where do you get your info? Your credibility has taken a serious hit.
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I saw a video on youtube yesterday where a Black Swan hybrid was chrono'd at 250 fps and if I remember right it was 48# draw with about 8gpi arrow. I will look it up. There is also a video that shows the GrizzlyStik Qarbon Nano Longbow shooting 279 fps at IBO conditions. It looks like Alaska Bowhunting Supply doesn't sell it anymore. It is distributed by 3 Rivers.
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Found the video of the black swan. The comments say "Black Swan Bow.. 48 pb @ 28 inches. with 390 grain arrow.Three chronographed shots. 252, 254,252 feet per second."
The Qarbon Nano was tested at 203 -205 at AMO standard 60# at 9 grains per pound.
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Originally posted by highlow:
Hey Sooner. Just went to Alaska Bowhunting Supply and they don't even carry bows. Broadheads, yes. Really, where do you get your info? Your credibility has taken a serious hit.
http://www.grizzlystik.com/Qarbon-Nano-QN2-Longbow-C73.aspx
Under the original Qarbon Nano they listed it as 300fps for AMO speed. Now listed at 175fps for a 45# @28.
The Black Swan is also listed @ approximately 300 AMO.
http://blackswanarchery.com/#/home
Everybody knows that guy that talks about how awesome old cars are yet instead of restoring to original specifications they upgrade to a bigger engine, EFI, disc breaks, etc. Don't get me wrong it's a nice car but it's nothing like the when it rolled off the plant. Does it drive like a modern car? No, but it sure doesn't handle like the show room version either. And theres nothing wrong with that either. But don't claim it to be all original.
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Can't we all just get along? That's the real question.
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We can when we're all hunting.
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Originally posted by highlow:
Hey Sooner. Just went to Alaska Bowhunting Supply and they don't even carry bows. Broadheads, yes. Really, where do you get your info? Your credibility has taken a serious hit.
They did , and the Nano was reputed at very fast speeds in IBO ratings.
However, with respect , Ed the owner passed away last year and so I am thinking that production stopped with him. He was well known for his b'heads, bows and shafts.
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I don't see a listed AMO speed of 300 on the Black Swan site. The Alaska Bohunting Qarbon Nano is now sold by 3 Rivers. Traditional is a subjective thing. Could it be that this same discussion happened back when someone had the audacity to add a string to a stick to throw their spear? I just enjoy getting out in nature and relaxing a bit.
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Oh I found it. The 300 fps on the Black Swan site is an IBO speed, not AMO.
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Originally posted by JohnV:
I don't think you know what you are talking about. You certainly know little regarding the history of "traditional archery." Clickers have been around longer than you've been a bowhunter, I bet. I guess you have never heard of the magnesium-handled Bear take down bow. I seriously doubt your figures on comparing bow speeds between a tricked out trad recurve and a selfbow. Not buying your numbers at all. Made up news like Trump talks about. You can play the "I'm more traditional than you!" game all you like. I am not impressed.
If we compare a high draw weight selfbow to a glass backed bow of the same draw weight than the arrow speed would be very close with the same weight arrows. Selfbow's don't reach effeciency until the higher draw weights or if using a design with a lot of reflex/deflex or heavy recurve.
We can take a look at the English longbow which is a selfbow and at 175# draw weight I have heard figures of them casting a quarter pound arrow near 200fps although the person that gave those figures could of very well of been wrong.
As for clickers, I don't care if someone uses them but I think they are missing out by introducing modern technology to their bow. There's something special about shooting a bow bare from any attachments just relying on your own abilities.
I'm sure Bear bow's had magnesium riser but Bear bow's are also relatively new (within the past 60 years or so).
I never said I was more traditional than anyone, I just think that calling some of the bows out there traditional is a misnomer.
Carbon foam limbs with clickers and carbon arrows is not traditional unless we are considering the tradition to be within the past 10 years.
I've seen a few bow's that could pass as a compound that are considered traditional. Namely the ones that have more than one string attached to the limb (due to a clicker) and lot's of recurve with 5/16" cut past center compound style risers.
If we take your standard Olympic FITA recurve setup and strip it from all attachments does it then become a traditional bow?
I never intended to offend anyone, just wanted to start an interesting discussion.
I watched a video of master Bowyer Ed Scott and he was talking about what traditional archery really was and it got me thinking.
I'm sorry if anyone is offended by this post or any other post of mines. If you find anything offensive just let me know and I'll remove it.
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My bow has more than one string too. It's got a second string wrapped on the first as a serving. Then it has two more tied on in the form of nocking points. I'll still call it traditional thank you very much.
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Many of the game animals that I shoot with longbows, could not be shot with the methods and equipment of most of the compound boys.
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To me it's largely marketing driven....the turnover of product in the compound market is a perfect example...if a company can keep you buying it's a successful company....traditional archery lacks that profit margin to large companies for the most part so you see them entering the trad market with the same approach to compounds with performance sales pitches that'll likely change year to year to convince people to keep buying the latest. You rarely see this in custom bowyers, they just make the models they make and that's it, no real sales pitch, they rarely even mention speed.
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Originally posted by Travisc406:
that's the beauty of what archery it is, its individual and whatever you want it to be. My bow is an extension of what my personality is. I feel when you look at my bow you can see who I am.
I could care less what the guy next to me is shooting. As long as he isn't cheating on regulations or laws. So be it.
well said, also if someone needs that stuff to make a ethical kill, good for them
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To the OP,
You have started this topic on numerous times elsewhere and that has ended badly each time.
This will go the same way as the others ...
id suggest just leave it that you have an idea as to what trad is that will differ from others. The preoccupation with clickers etc is odd.
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Originally posted by forestdweller:
Originally posted by JohnV:
I don't think you know what you are talking about. You certainly know little regarding the history of "traditional archery." Clickers have been around longer than you've been a bowhunter, I bet. I guess you have never heard of the magnesium-handled Bear take down bow. I seriously doubt your figures on comparing bow speeds between a tricked out trad recurve and a selfbow. Not buying your numbers at all. Made up news like Trump talks about. You can play the "I'm more traditional than you!" game all you like. I am not impressed.
If we compare a high draw weight selfbow to a glass backed bow of the same draw weight than the arrow speed would be very close with the same weight arrows. Selfbow's don't reach effeciency until the higher draw weights or if using a design with a lot of reflex/deflex or heavy recurve.
We can take a look at the English longbow which is a selfbow and at 175# draw weight I have heard figures of them casting a quarter pound arrow near 200fps although the person that gave those figures could of very well of been wrong.
As for clickers, I don't care if someone uses them but I think they are missing out by introducing modern technology to their bow. There's something special about shooting a bow bare from any attachments just relying on your own abilities.
I'm sure Bear bow's had magnesium riser but Bear bow's are also relatively new (within the past 60 years or so).
I never said I was more traditional than anyone, I just think that calling some of the bows out there traditional is a misnomer.
Carbon foam limbs with clickers and carbon arrows is not traditional unless we are considering the tradition to be within the past 10 years.
I've seen a few bow's that could pass as a compound that are considered traditional. Namely the ones that have more than one string attached to the limb (due to a clicker) and lot's of recurve with 5/16" cut past center compound style risers.
If we take your standard Olympic FITA recurve setup and strip it from all attachments does it then become a traditional bow?
I never intended to offend anyone, just wanted to start an interesting discussion.
I watched a video of master Bowyer Ed Scott and he was talking about what traditional archery really was and it got me thinking.
I'm sorry if anyone is offended by this post or any other post of mines. If you find anything offensive just let me know and I'll remove it. [/b]
:biglaugh:
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This is how I see it. But first let me say my first love is shooting a selfbow with wood arrows. Next would be my Hill with wood arrows.
I go to a lot of 3D shoots if I go for fun I don't care what bow I shoot. If I go to compete than I'm taking my r/d bow and carbon arrows. I want to every bit of performance. It's like any sport or competition you want every edge that's legal. But no matter how modern your equipment is you still need to know how to shoot.
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I never said I was more traditional than anyone, I just think that calling some of the bows out there traditional is a misnomer.
What exactly is traditional??? The term never even existed until compounds came along, and somebody needed a way to distinguish between the two. It used to be just bow shooting, bowhunting, or archery, then compounds came along and made two different styles. Those two styles needed a way to be referenced.
Traditional does not mean "Done the way it was XXX number of years ago". It is just a label someone came up with to be able to distinguish what we do from what wheel guys do!!!
Bisch
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Originally posted by Bisch:
What exactly is traditional??? The term never even existed until compounds came along, and somebody needed a way to distinguish between the two. It used to be just bow shooting, bowhunting, or archery, then compounds came along and made two different styles. Those two styles needed a way to be referenced.
Traditional does not mean "Done the way it was XXX number of years ago". It is just a label someone came up with to be able to distinguish what we do from what wheel guys do!!!
Bisch
Well said Bisch!
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Amen Bisch!
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Metal bow handles are cold. Aluminum arrows go 'ting-o-ling-o-ling'. You do not want carbon arrows to get shredded in a deer. Feeders are folly. Trail cameras are like having a digital spy. Antler stew tastes no better now than it did 50 years ago.
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To me trad is a method we use to shoot our bow.And there are a few methods and still not have sights. As far as the tech going into the building and perfromance part we all need the advantages it gives to enjoy it more and make the harvests seem easier with the confidence it gives.
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Originally posted by cpnhgnlngct:
Trad is not a word to describe equipment. It's a lifestyle. And I'm pretty sure every member that had the ambition to join TradGang lives that lifestyle, regardless of what their bow is made of or looks like. Stop drawing self defining lines in the sand and go shoot some arrows. The camp fire is open to everyone.
Amen to that, bro :notworthy:
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"The camp fire is open to everyone."
Is it really? Threads like this make me think that it is not. Since there is no definition of what is "traditional", I often prefer to refer to some of the modern bow designs as "traditional-style" bows. One string with no pulleys or other mechanical advantages. One can argue all day to what extent foam and/or carbon glass give such bows an advantage, but whatever advantage they provide, it is rather modest and does not make a bow any easier to shoot accurately other than maybe dropping a few pounds in pull weight.
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David Mitchell,
I've recently bought a large number of Traditional Bowhunter back issues. There's an article in the Feb/March 1999 you authored called "The Politics of Bowhunting". It is a GREAT article with sound advice!
This thread, while it seems pretty civilized to me, reminds me of the Proverbs 15:1 verse you quoted in that article: "a soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger".
For those of us out in the world (vs. holed up somewhere) this is divine advice.
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Bowwild, thanks so much for the gracious comment about that article. It seems like every facet of American life these days emphasizes division rather than an effort to promote unity.
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Originally posted by Bisch:
What exactly is traditional??? The term never even existed until compounds came along, and somebody needed a way to distinguish between the two. It used to be just bow shooting, bowhunting, or archery, then compounds came along and made two different styles. Those two styles needed a way to be referenced.
Traditional does not mean "Done the way it was XXX number of years ago". It is just a label someone came up with to be able to distinguish what we do from what wheel guys do!!!
Bisch [/b]
:thumbsup:
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Originally posted by Bisch:
I never said I was more traditional than anyone, I just think that calling some of the bows out there traditional is a misnomer.
What exactly is traditional??? The term never even existed until compounds came along, and somebody needed a way to distinguish between the two. It used to be just bow shooting, bowhunting, or archery, then compounds came along and made two different styles. Those two styles needed a way to be referenced.
Traditional does not mean "Done the way it was XXX number of years ago". It is just a label someone came up with to be able to distinguish what we do from what wheel guys do!!!
Bisch [/b]
"tra·di·tion·al
trəˈdiSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
existing in or as part of a tradition; long-established"
Most of the bows being touted as traditional are not so. When did super recurves with carbon and foam limbs fit into history along with carbon arrows and clickers?
Super recurves as an example are considered by some to be traditional yet their design and materials have only bee around for less than 20 years.
I think that calling any bow with a single string traditional is a misnomer. If we take into account the materials being used (glass/carbon/foam) along with the designs only capable using said materials than it's clear to me that they are not traditional.
I think it's important that we have a clear definition of what a traditional bow is to separate the high tech modern single string bows from the true traditional bows as to me they are two separate things.
According to the author in TBB a traditional bow is one made out of natural materials meaning wood and/or using natural backing. I think that's a solid definition. There was no fiberglass nor carbon 100+ years ago.
Originally posted by pavan:
Metal bow handles are cold. Aluminum arrows go 'ting-o-ling-o-ling'. You do not want carbon arrows to get shredded in a deer. Feeders are folly. Trail cameras are like having a digital spy. Antler stew tastes no better now than it did 50 years ago.
That's one of the main reasons why carbon arrows turn me off. They can blow up and splinter badly into your hand or arm and they have the potential of ruining your harvest.
Originally posted by Ben Maher:
To the OP,
You have started this topic on numerous times elsewhere and that has ended badly each time.
This will go the same way as the others ...
id suggest just leave it that you have an idea as to what trad is that will differ from others. The preoccupation with clickers etc is odd.
This is the first time I've talked about this.
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Heck , how bout you call yours trad and I'll call mine a bow I built in my own shop from almost all material I made in my shop . I don't care if anybody thinks mine is trad or not.
Let's go shoot somethin!
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Well, I tried!!!!
We will have to agree to disagree on this one!
And I guess you can go back wherever it is you go, and be "more tradional" than the rest of us! :knothead: :knothead: :knothead:
Have a great day!
Bisch
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Maybe some need a traditional safe place?
;)
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:deadhorse: :(
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Man takes too much pride in his works, be they good or otherwise.
What's 25 years to be an antique or 100 years to be "historic" on the scale of eternity? I've always chuckled (or cried if my tax dollars) at towns that spend a fortune preserving a bunch of wood, asphalt, pipe and wires called an old house.
It is simple really. When most people, archers or only those a bit familiar with archery, think of "traditional" they envision any vertical bow without wheels and multiple cables and strings.
I reckon there'd be a lot of room for multiple websites if they were decade-specific: Pre-History Bows, 1900 Bows, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, etc. I imagine each might have about 10 followers? Your screen would be split, one side would be static, grainy old photos. The other side would be a mirror.
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Funny how some folks can get into a barroom brawl arguing about whose bow is "traditional", then go out and hunt with carbon arrows, screw-on broadheads and the like... :knothead:
I'm not throwing stones here, I have no dog in this fight. In my opinion, what works best for the shooter/hunter is what he or she should be shooting, not what somebody else has 'blessed' one way or the other. I completely agree with the comments about divisiveness and how petty arguments over semantics can make a mountain out of a molehill...and enemies out of friends. Nobody is all right or all wrong, we just have differing opinions. Nothing wrong with that in my book.
Bottom line, we all like bowhunting and prefer to do it without wheels. And that should be enough. :thumbsup:
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I am with Bisch and others here. Whatever the dictionary says, in context to archery, the term traditional was coined simply to separate compounds from what was used before. Your personal meaning might differ or include more or fewer particulars.
What's going on with the world lately where we have to argue about everything instead of just talk. Draw some lines in the sand for yourself, don't step on mine.
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Originally posted by ChuckC:
....
What's going on with the world lately where we have to argue about everything instead of just talk. Draw some lines in the sand for yourself, don't step on mine.
x2
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According to the author in TBB a traditional bow is one made out of natural materials meaning wood and/or using natural backing. I think that's a solid definition. There was no fiberglass nor carbon 100+ years ago.
I thought we already had a class that fit your requirements pretty well, called "primitive," which is a term that is in common use and well understood as a defined category of bowyers and shooters, but let's make sure that we don't fudge on this. There was no dacron for strings 100 years ago, no electrically powered hand tools in home garages, no modern glue, so I would guess that most primitive bowyers and shooters of today would be disqualified under your definition. There are a few who do all their work by hand without power tools, and maybe even use linen strings, but how many of those use draw knives and rasps made in industrial processes not available 100 years ago? Too bad, they're disqualified too. Y'all have a good time, ya hear?
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Originally posted by McDave:
According to the author in TBB a traditional bow is one made out of natural materials meaning wood and/or using natural backing. I think that's a solid definition. There was no fiberglass nor carbon 100+ years ago.
I thought we already had a class that fit your requirements pretty well, called "primitive," which is a term that is in common use and well understood as a defined category of bowyers and shooters, but let's make sure that we don't fudge on this. There was no dacron for strings 100 years ago, no electrically powered hand tools in home garages, no modern glue, so I would guess that most primitive bowyers and shooters of today would be disqualified under your definition. There are a few who do all their work by hand without power tools, and maybe even use linen strings, but how many of those use draw knives and rasps made in industrial processes not available 100 years ago? Too bad, they're disqualified too. Y'all have a good time, ya hear? [/b]
We are talking about the bow and arrows themselves not the tools used to make it.
To be fair with you though most of the hand tools used to make traditional bows are still traditional tools. Draw knives have been around for a long time as have hatchets, rasps, and what not.
I suppose you could call it primitive but designs like the English longbow and the Turkish recurve among other bows are not primitive designs but are traditional as in being very old designs.
I don't know, when I got into archery I thought it was all wooden bows, wooden arrows, and so on.
If you ask most people what a longbow or recurve is made out of they will say wood and they will say the arrows are wooden as well.
I thought traditional archery was supposed to be a life style away from buying mass produced items and was supposed to be about self reliance and the age old craft of using wooden arrows and wooden bows?
I have nothing against fiberglass or carbon laminated bows or carbon arrows but to me they are not true traditional archery.
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On Tradgang it's no wheels no cables....
And we make calls on new fangled gadgets such as ozonics.