Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Learner on January 05, 2017, 12:25:00 PM
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While perusing a Hill thread here, I ran across this video by member Chuck Hakari ("akbowbender"). I felt that it should be shared again for the benefit of newbies such as myself:
Using a back quiver (Hill style) (https://youtu.be/702n8EWLEP8)
After seeing John Schulz's video a few months back, I adopted this method, with one exception: I still nock under, rather than over as John and Howard taught. I don't find it to be much more difficult. And if I try someone else's bow, I don't need to change my method.
Thank you, Chuck, for this video. It was very well done. Nice camera work, also!
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The Hill method as taught by John is certainly the most efficient in terms of economy of motion.
This does not mean other methods can not be as fast or comfortable if practiced enough.
Bob Swinehart describes using a nocking method where he brings the arrow onto the string from inside the bow instead of coming down on the string from above. He was certainly able to become efficient at that by the number of arrows in a charging elephant LOL
(http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/two4hooking/Trad%20Know%20How/668655077_o_zpsd773b377.jpg) (http://s481.photobucket.com/user/two4hooking/media/Trad%20Know%20How/668655077_o_zpsd773b377.jpg.html)
Personally I learned to do it the Hill / Schulz way it seemed to favor speed from the back quiver in that economy of motion theory, but other methods will certainly work if practiced consistently enough.
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I use the same method as John describes in his video except I also knock under. I don't think I'm faster nocking above. It takes practice but I can grab an arrow nock and draw without looking pretty quick.
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Originally posted by crazynate:
I use the same method as John describes in his video except I also knock under. I don't think I'm faster nocking above. It takes practice but I can grab an arrow nock and draw without looking pretty quick.
:thumbsup:
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Originally posted by two4hooking:
The Hill method as taught by John is certainly the most efficient in terms of economy of motion.
This does not mean other methods can not be as fast or comfortable if practiced enough.
Bob Swinehart describes using a nocking method where he brings the arrow onto the string from inside the bow instead of coming down on the string from above. He was certainly able to become efficient at that by the number of arrows in a charging elephant LOL
(http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/two4hooking/Trad%20Know%20How/668655077_o_zpsd773b377.jpg) (http://s481.photobucket.com/user/two4hooking/media/Trad%20Know%20How/668655077_o_zpsd773b377.jpg.html)
Personally I learned to do it the Hill / Schulz way it seemed to favor speed from the back quiver in that economy of motion theory, but other methods will certainly work if practiced consistently enough.
Thanks for this, Greg.
I think what has drawn me to this style is both the fluid motion, and not having to look at my bow when nocking an arrow.
I've watched a lot of trad videos where the archer spends wasted time pulling an arrow from a "non-back" quiver by the shaft, bringing it through the bow in a convoluted motion, nocking it, and finally addressing the string. All the while, their eyes are off of the target, which would seem not so great for hunting.
The Hill method just seems so right. :thumbsup:
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Excellent article in the current issue of TBM on using the Traditional Back Quiver.
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On some bows I use two points, I can feel them with my thumb and hit the string without needing to slide the arrow. If you are ever trying to get one particular arrow out of your quiver and you see the sun go by twice, you need to adjust it.
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Originally posted by pavan:
On some bows I use two points, I can feel them with my thumb and hit the string without needing to slide the arrow. If you are ever trying to get one particular arrow out of your quiver and you see the sun go by twice, you need to adjust it.
:)
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I have trouble reaching my arrows. I noticed in the TBM article their back quivers are almost horizontal. Not sure it will help but thought I would give t a try.
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That is a great video. He has it over to the side too. Thanks for sharing.
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In real hunting situations when I have a coat on, when still hunting rabbits and pheasants and sometimes deer, I find that simply giving the strap a little tug up by my shoulder, is just as fast and easier than trying to bump it with my elbow.
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You're right pavan. After a bit of practice
the tug or the bump becomes automatic. Pulling the arrow and nocking it without looking becomes easier the more you do it.
Deno
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Ha... try doing it left handed !
It is good to watch these sort of videos because it gives you clues as to ways to overcome problems that you have ( and others have), so you don't have to invent the wheel. You may not do it exactly as proposed by others, but it gives you ideas as to what can be done, or even that something CAN be done.
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I have a Hill style back quiver but have never tried using it for hunting. The video shared is very good but shows the problem I have and that is too much noise. Noise from the shafts rattling against each other and noise from the shaft you are drawing against the other shafts as it comes out. How do you guys deal with the noise when a whitetail is inside the 25 yard range? Is there something I have missed that is used in a hunting situation? Also, I don't want to have to resharpen my heads everyday because they dulled from banging against each other in the quiver. Do any of you use a foam block in the bottom to press the heads into to keep them from dulling? I do love the fluid nature of drawing, nocking and shooting from the Hill style quiver. If I can address these two problems I'd like to give it a try in a spot and stalk hunting situation.
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My deer this year. I needed to shift my spot, which happens very often the last hour of the day when thermals shift. About 40 yards from that spot, I turned to see a buck about 25 yards away staring straight at me. I could not get my water bottle into a pocket so I slid it under the stretch belt that held my Nifty seat. I had three arrows out and arranged earlier, when I put them back they crossed horns with my blunts that did not stay at one end of the bottom like I wanted, (this quiver did not have a bottom divider lace). When I pulled on a broad head arrow, it felt like half of the quiver wanted to come along. I picked another same, third time is a charm. The buck was acting nervous, but looked away long enough to get the arrow on the string. He looked back flick his tail and made a hop, and then went on with his business like nothing was wrong. That was his mistake.
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Originally posted by Flingblade:
I have a Hill style back quiver but have never tried using it for hunting. The video shared is very good but shows the problem I have and that is too much noise. Noise from the shafts rattling against each other and noise from the shaft you are drawing against the other shafts as it comes out. How do you guys deal with the noise when a whitetail is inside the 25 yard range? Is there something I have missed that is used in a hunting situation? Also, I don't want to have to resharpen my heads everyday because they dulled from banging against each other in the quiver. Do any of you use a foam block in the bottom to press the heads into to keep them from dulling? I do love the fluid nature of drawing, nocking and shooting from the Hill style quiver. If I can address these two problems I'd like to give it a try in a spot and stalk hunting situation.
Greg Ragan ("two4hooking" here on the forums) addresses these issues in his article in the latest issue of Traditional Bowhunter Magazine (Feb-March 2017 issue). The article is directed specifically at Hill-style back quivers. It is entitled "Hunting with a Back Quiver". I found it to be very helpful.
Best wishes,
Frank
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Thanks for the kind words about my article guys. :coffee: : :coffee:
I hope it helps someone. :archer2:
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From my point of view... if your arrows are rattling when you move, you are moving too fast.
I have a single arrow tie on sheath on my bow. It weighs nothing and is there to protect me front he arrow point as I carry an arrow and bow together in my hand. There is no noise of extracting the arrow using that.
Rarely do I need a second shot at something like a deer (not cause I am so certain with the first as much as they tend to get out of Dodge).
ChuckC
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Once I flattened my quiver, as Greg describes in his article, the arrows don't rattle, nor do they fall out.
Last night I gave it a good oiling with Montana Pitch-Blend Leather Conditioner, both inside and out. This should help soften it, and also condition and waterproof it. It darkened the unfinished surfaces slightly, and the suede string pouch a lot. But that doesn't bother me.
But that pitch/mink oil formula does have an odor. Not a bad one, but hopefully the forest critters don't think it's human scent!
Actually, maybe it will help, with the deer thinking that I'm a mink or a pine tree! :bigsmyl:
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Here is my new Hill 22" RH quiver (stiff leather version). I just treated it inside and out, with the Montana Pitch-Blend Leather Oil & Conditioner product.
(This image is very slightly lighter looking than it actually is, due to the settings chosen by my phone camera):
(http://i.imgur.com/mHnma10.jpg)
The MPB oil darkened the unfinished side of the leather (top cuff and inside), but just a little. When you first apply it (I used their horsehair brush to apply) it got really dark. But after it soaked in, and I rubbed it down with a cotton cloth, the original color returned, only slightly "richer" looking.
I also treated the suede string pouch. This pouch soaked in a lot of the product, so even after I wiped it down and pressed it for a while inside some paper towels with a book on top, it stayed darker and the nap was matted in places. I was able to fix most of the nap matting by brushing with a suede nap brush. So the pouch is quite a bit darker than originally, but again, I like the look. Eventually the soft suede would have absorbed dirt and finger oils anyway, and started looking stained. So again, I don't mind the darkening here, either.
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I agree with fling blade it's not the arrows so much rattling in the quiver its the noise of drawing one out that's noisy as per seen in the video and he's using field points BHs tend to hang up even more. That and putting a BH tipped arrow back in the quiver without it smacking the backside of a another BH. Thus dulling it. Those are the two issues I have with a back quiver. Other than carrying my climber or a back pack.
The thing I love most about a back quiver (Shulz method ) is I can nock an arrow faster and without looking. With any other quiver I have to take a quick look at the string and arrow.
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Learner: Glad you found the video useful. My son did the filming and put it all together. It was a fun project. Only one re-take, which is good for me!
I have one of the lighter weight Hill quivers, and a heavier weight one that I made using the Hill quiver for a model.
The Hill quiver holds the arrows very firmly as the lighter leather forms more closely to my back. The one I made is pretty well broken in, but still holds the arrows more loosely, so it is easier to reload.
Greg: Great article in TBM!
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Additional info: when my quiver arrived from HHA, it was oval at the top as well as the bottom. Evie even shipped it in a roll of soft corrugated cardboard, so the shape was evident even before I unwrapped it:
(http://i.imgur.com/SZlEYo9.jpg?2)
The large oval opening indeed caused the arrows to rattle around quite a bit.
Remembering things which I had read, and photos of Howard HIll and John Schulz, I realized that their quivers where quite flat from the middle to the top. Then I read Greg's TBM article. As he mentions in his article, this flatness allows the quiver to pinch the arrows in place when the quiver is worn on the back.
To achieve this I flattened the upper half of my quiver by rolling the top of the quiver down (rolling towards the back side of the quiver, i.e., away from the string pouch), and then setting some weight on it overnight. The top half of the quiver and the stiff upper cuff collapsed somewhat after this.
Now when I wear it, the arrows stay fairly quiet inside. Since the fletchings are close to my right ear, I can hear some soft "rustling" coming from them when I walk. But it's not very noticeable. What helps with this, as Greg also mentions in his article, is that the quiver is designed to be worn at a angle. He says that "the arrows should be lying in the quiver at an angle, not straight up and down".
To achieve the proper position of the arrows, you need to adjust the quiver strap, again as Greg explains in the article. He states "The quiver should be adjusted so the strap is fairly snug, but able to be rotated freely when needed. The strap should go from your neck on the opening side to above the level of your nipple and under the arm of your bow hand. This places the arrows around the level of the top of your shoulder or just below".
After making these adjustments I can now bend way over without the arrows falling out.
The oil treatment should also eventually aid in making the stiff leather more pliable, allowing it to better collapse on itself.
In retrospect I think that if I had ordered the "soft leather version" from HHA, I would have been better off. But the one I have should hopefully improve with use.
Best wishes,
Frank
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Originally posted by Mr. fingers:
I agree with fling blade it's not the arrows so much rattling in the quiver its the noise of drawing one out that's noisy as per seen in the video and he's using field points BHs tend to hang up even more. That and putting a BH tipped arrow back in the quiver without it smacking the backside of a another BH. Thus dulling it. Those are the two issues I have with a back quiver. Other than carrying my climber or a back pack.
The thing I love most about a back quiver (Shulz method ) is I can nock an arrow faster and without looking. With any other quiver I have to take a quick look at the string and arrow.
I agree about the noise and the backpack issues. When I hopefully get to hunt someday (when my form and accuracy are ready), I'll have to figure out the backpack thing.
As for the noise on withdrawing, I don't know how many arrows I would be shooting in a hunting situation. I would think that I could pull out one arrow slowly and quietly. But that remains to be seen.
As far as the broadhead issue: I'd probably slip the quiver off and than stack the arrow inside, rather than trying to slip it in.
Again, in a hunting situation, I would imagine that the amount of actual number shots taken with a broadhead would be not that great, unlike target practice with field points, where dulling is not an issue. So how often would I actually be sliding a broadhead back into the quiver?
:archer2:
Best wishes,
Frank
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Personally I hunt with a back quiver when I hunt. I use my back quiver as a backpack, everything I need is in or on my back quiver.
I almost always hunt from a stand, when I'm on the stand I take my back quiver off. If I am stalking I will have an arrow on my string.
I have made several quivers but my favorite came from our very own Bud. Bud has been kind enough to donate his homemade quivers to St Jude's Auction over the years. The Mojo is priceless that comes with his quivers. My quiver is no longer pretty and slick but she is wore and weathered the way that Bud would expect it to look after years of use. There is no doubt this quiver will out last me. Thanks Bud!!!
If the thread sparks an interest for some to want a new quiver, you may want to wait for the St Jude Auction and hopefully Bud will donate again this year. If he does don't be scared to bid high or buy a lot of tickets depending on which way they are offered.
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Originally posted by Caughtandhobble:
Personally I hunt with a back quiver when I hunt. I use my back quiver as a backpack, everything I need is in or on my back quiver.
I almost always hunt from a stand, when I'm on the stand I take my back quiver off. If I am stalking I will have an arrow on my string.
I have made several quivers but my favorite came from our very own Bud. Bud has been kind enough to donate his homemade quivers to St Jude's Auction over the years. The Mojo is priceless that comes with his quivers. My quiver is no longer pretty and slick but she is wore and weathered the way that Bud would expect it to look after years of use. There is no doubt this quiver will out last me. Thanks Bud!!!
If the thread sparks an interest for some to want a new quiver, you may want to wait for the St Jude Auction and hopefully Bud will donate again this year. If he does don't be scared to bid high or buy a lot of tickets depending on which way they are offered.
:thumbsup:
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To me the back quiver is a system and part of the bow package. I feel like I am missing something if I am shooting and not wearing it. I find a way to make the system work for me.
Here I am 8 miles in the CO backcountry packing out. My quiver is strapped to my pack so I can still reach and pull out an arrow.
(http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/two4hooking/Colorado%202012/cr4.jpg) (http://s481.photobucket.com/user/two4hooking/media/Colorado%202012/cr4.jpg.html)
Once I get to camp I just fill my pockets and maybe a small fanny pack or haversack with a few essentials and go hunting. Simplicity and economy are part of the allure....how much stuff do you really need for a days hunt away from camp anyway? I carry the essentials and what I would need to survive. Everything else stays in camp.
When I hunt with my climber I also strap the quiver with some leather lacing to my stand on my back so I can still reach the arrows.
You find a way. The more you use it the more it works for you. It is a part of my system.
Here I am mucking it through the marsh on a sika hunt with my QP strapped to the LW climber:
(http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/two4hooking/sika1.jpg) (http://s481.photobucket.com/user/two4hooking/media/sika1.jpg.html)
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Originally posted by two4hooking:
To me the back quiver is a system and part of the bow package. I feel like I am missing something if I am shooting and not wearing it. I find a way to make the system work for me.
Here I am 8 miles in the CO backcountry packing out. My quiver is strapped to my pack so I can still reach and pull out an arrow.
(http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/two4hooking/Colorado%202012/cr4.jpg) (http://s481.photobucket.com/user/two4hooking/media/Colorado%202012/cr4.jpg.html)
Once I get to camp I just fill my pockets and maybe a small fanny pack or haversack with a few essentials and go hunting. Simplicity and economy are part of the allure....how much stuff do you really need for a days hunt away from camp anyway? I carry the essentials and what I would need to survive. Everything else stays in camp.
When I hunt with my climber I also strap the quiver with some leather lacing to my stand on my back so I can still reach the arrows.
You find a way. The more you use it the more it works for you. It is a part of my system.
Here I am mucking it through the marsh on a sika hunt with my QP strapped to the LW climber:
(http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/two4hooking/sika1.jpg) (http://s481.photobucket.com/user/two4hooking/media/sika1.jpg.html)
It's super helpful to hear about the system and see these photos, Greg.
Maybe you could do a "Part 2" article for TBM! :thumbsup:
Best wishes,
Frank
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I have a Hill style quiver, but I put a longer strap on it and use it like a plains quiver. The main reason is that I carry a variety of arrows when I hunt to take advantage of whatever game I happen to see. Carrying it plains quiver style allows me to look down to select the appropriate arrow.
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I separate my broadheads from small game heads a couple of ways depending on how many BH arrows I want to carry.
Usually I use a leather lace divider inside the top of the quiver and put my blunts in there while the broadheads ride in the bottom section.
If I want to really scare some squirrels and stumps and only carry a few BHs, I'll just use them all in the bottom section.
Because I use net length wood arrows and my broadhead arrows are a few inches longer with BHs. It is hard to grab the wrong one.
If you put BHs in the top section, sometimes they will get hung up on the leather divider so my BHs always ride in the lower section.
This is the one true drawback of the BQ. Judo heads grab other arrows, so my small game heads are blunts, .38 shell casings (or mod ones) and other low profile heads (ace hex etc). I've never had an issue with other larger 4 blade BHs when I used them, but those wires on the judo really grab stuff.
Other than that Back Quivers ROCK!
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I just read the article in TBM. Very good article. One mod I need to make is add some type of adjustable buckle on the strap. Mine fits snug with a t-shirt and is too tight to wear with my heavy wool coat. Howard always shot wood shafts. Seems wood would be the quietest when drawing out of a BQ. I remember reading somewhere that he liked to file his broadheads to a saw tooth edge rather than a razor edge. I am speculating that a saw tooth or serrated edge would be less prone to dulling in a BQ. I think I am going to re-visit using the BQ this coming season. Now all I need is a safari shirt and khaki trousers and I'll be all Hill'd up!
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Bring this back up... I asked this question elsewhere but got no real responses....
What begot the back quiver?
Hill is mainly credited (his name) but I saw photos and old movie footage of Art Young morphing his belt quiver from "at the waist" to "over his shoulder". This would likely have been prior to Hill jumping into the fold, although I am guessing he refined the option.
Does anybody KNOW ?
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Great article and pics Two4H. I'm used to my Hill quiver but it's always good to look for new tips. Andyou always have 'em.
Always a pleasure Greg
Deno
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Thanks Ben.
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/Equismith/15975169_1860431294239522_8342174723161030393_o.jpg) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/Equismith/media/15975169_1860431294239522_8342174723161030393_o.jpg.html)