I've never hunted out of a canoe before, but something about the idea has always fascinated me. I think, maybe that it's the idea that when you can't get somewhere by vehicle, or even just by walking, it makes it seem more like a true wilderness, even if it's not really that far from civilization. Anyway, I haven't ever hunted any areas that lend themselves well to canoe access, but I'm hoping to change that in the next couple years. In the event that that happens, I'll need a canoe.
I know there are lots of canoe manufacturers, but I'll probably try to keep it under $1000 for my first one. That seems to limit me to Old Town for the most part. Since I'd likely be alone on most of my trips, I'd also like to keep the size and weight down. Below are the basic specs for the three best options I see.
Old Town Next
Length: 13'
Width: 29"
Weight: 59#
Price: $999
Old Town Discovery 119
Length: 11' 9"
Width: 32.5"
Weight: 49#
Price: $699
Old Town Discovery 133
Length: 13' 3"
Width: 40.5"
Weight: 78#
Price: $999
For reference, I'm 6'1" and around 235# and would be carrying enough gear for maybe a two night camping trip total. And hopefully have to bring a deer out occasionally. So, based on you guys' experience, what would you recommend? I'd love to hear from guys with experience with these models specifically, but also any other insights about canoes and hunting. I'd also like to see pictures of your setups as well. I'm sure you guys have come up with some good modifications over the years to make things more comfortable.
Thanks,
Matt
Golden Hawk canoes are made for just this. I use mine for bowhunting all the time and love it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Paul Shirek:
Golden Hawk canoes are made for just this. I use mine for bowhunting all the time and love it.
Never heard of those before, but I just looked them up. Wow. Those are about the coolest looking canoes I've ever seen. After looking at them, I was surprised to see that they were actually in the price range I mentioned. They look like they'd be a lot more expensive.
I've fished flowing rivers for smallmouth bass a lot out of a OT 119. I have a river-rat buddy who helped me modify my canoe to an outstanding fishing platform. A few modifications and I could even stand up to fish in it. The 119 handles well in current and has a small enough footprint to make paddling upriver (as long as the current is not too fast)with a double-bladed Mohawk paddle doable without killing yourself. However, if youre planning on lots of camping gear and also hauling a deer out, I think you should possibly rule out a 119. Just not enough storage space.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/DarrinG/Canoe%20Kayak/canoe2.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarrinG/media/Canoe%20Kayak/canoe2.jpg.html)
Another louisiana guy here. I'm interested to see suggestions here. I have hunted squirrel from a canoe with a .22 rifle before, which was fun. I've been planning to get a small job boat with one of the little 7HP lawn mower motor powered mud motors just to be able to get back into the swamps a bit farther before hoofing it.
EDIT: just googled my way over to the Golden Hawk canoe web page. Dude. Yes. I need. 13 ft with a 750 lb capacity (always an issue as I weigh 350 by my lonesome). Plus they look incredible.
That Golden Hawk doesn't look like it would track worth a hoot. Way to wide. JMO
Not to muddy the waters but take a look at Radisson. I'm 6'3" and 240. I love mine. I can stand up and shoot my bow from it. Very stable.
You and two nights camping gear and possibly a deer.....16' minimum.
I'd go a bit bigger (room for the deer) but you know your needs. My biggest suggestion would be to find one lightly used in Royalex(or even Kevlar if you don't go on white water)I've been in mourning ever since they quit making the stuff, but they can still be found and the dead of winter is the time to buy. I scored a 17' Royalex Wenonah Aurora that was like new for $700 a couple years ago. It was essentially brand new and had always been stored out of direct sunlight. Nothing wrong with polypropylene (plastic), but it weighs a ton. When you get old and decrepit you'll thank me! Check Craigslist. People are thinking of paying Christmas bills now...you might find the woman scorned more than happy to unload her ex's stuff at a discount. It will be months before watercraft sellers will expect a premium again.
Never paddled a Radisson but heard good things about them. Made in Canada aren't they.
I have an 16 foot'Old town camper royelex (sic) bought many years ago paddled many rivers and bayous in Louisiana not sure how far Saline is from Ville Platte but if you want to try it out we can go to Chicot park or my camp on my pond to see if 16' works for you.I don't think they still make my model but will be close to the size and looks you may want.Kip
As much as I like the short canoes I would probably go with something 14 to 16 feet unless, you can go with ultralight camping gear like used by backpackers and you can legally bone out the meat to bring it back. If you lack the lightweight gear or have to bring out the whole carcass in your state then 14 to 16 feet will be a must. I've done day floats for deer and squirrel in a 13'r with a companion and it was not something I want to do again in a short canoe. With added weight longer will be better IMHO.
Thanks guys. I was afraid I'd be told to get a bigger one. I knew a longer canoe would have its advantages, but I knew the 14-16 foot models in the $1000 price range are heavy. I figured going smaller would be the best way to keep the weight down without the cost of lighter weight materials. I'd prefer to have the weight down around 50# or less to make it easier to handle alone.
I've used longer canoes before, but don't have much experience with the shorter ones. That's the main reason for my post. The Radisson looks like it might be another good option. Their 16' model is only 58# and isn't too much over the $1000 price tag.
I'll definitely check out the used market if I get ready to buy one, but I've looked before and there aren't many canoes around N La. I've looked before and there might be one or two at any given time on Craigslist down here. Looking in more northern states, there may be a couple dozen used ones for sale at any given time.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kip:
I have an 16 foot'Old town camper royelex (sic) bought many years ago paddled many rivers and bayous in Louisiana not sure how far Saline is from Ville Platte but if you want to try it out we can go to Chicot park or my camp on my pond to see if 16' works for you.I don't think they still make my model but will be close to the size and looks you may want.Kip
Thanks for the offer, but I'm in N La. probably 2-3 hours drive. I've used longer canoes before and was mainly looking for opinions on the shorter ones.
I bought the Next model used from a guy who floated the entire Mississippi river from the trail head of the river all the way to the Gulf of Mexico in New Orleans :eek: :readit:
This was his canoe
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8063/29472616501_047532400c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/LUoS5n) IMG_0905 (https://flic.kr/p/LUoS5n)
I've used it once or twice so far and really like it. I got it over the 119 due to it being a bit longer and able to hold enough gear for a day hunt or two.
I like you wanted something on the light side and not to big.
You can read about Mike's adventure down the mighty Mississippi river by goggling "Lost with Mike" and it will pull up his blog.. You will see that for over 2 months he lived in this canoe.
Bought a used 4x6 utility trailer and added a longer tongue to it to use to haul the canoe and limit having to load over my head (getting older).
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/404/31893648462_547a1631af.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QAkhwJ) IMG_0995 (https://flic.kr/p/QAkhwJ)
It has been a long time since I spent much time in a canoe, but I never liked a really short boat, especially if you have considerable weight to carry. Will you have a companion? Is there any rough water in your area? If so, that brings up a lot of other considerations. I preferred 14 to 16' in length and a flat bottom when carrying gear. One word of advice - be very cautious about standing up in a canoe and trying to shoot your bow. It is easy to tip one over when standing.
They are made in Canada. Mine has oars which is great if you have current in the river you are drifting. Steers very easy. You can also backwater straight with them to reverse direction.
If you want 2c from a guy who also dreams of canoe hunting but also doesn't own one here it is:
Consider building a SOF canoe. That's Skin on Frame. Basically a wooden frame (cedar or fir or pine or W/E really) with a ballistic nylon skin that's stretched over the frame, sewn tight, and then coated in a waterproof finish such as paints or polyurethane. They're lighter than basically anything out there save maybe Kevlar. They're very inexpensive to build, and they are supposed to be relatively fast and simple to build.
Second, find a buddy to go along with you. Then it makes sense to take a much larger canoe like 18'. That will have huge capacity, track very well, move fast and easily through the water even when loaded. Also, with a long canoe that tracks well, it's not hard for one man to paddle it from the back ... start practicing your canoe strokes ....
A longer boat is going to be so much nicer to paddle especially when loaded down. Plus with the extra capacity you could consider a small trolling motor, a decent battery or two and a little solar panel to charge it. Now you've got a rig that can cover serious distance.
Just some thoughts,
Cheers
I have done a fair amount of solo canoeing, waterfowl hunting and flyfishing-most of the time in a 17' Grumman aluminum. When solo, it's best to be on your knees-lowers the center of gravity making the canoe more stable-sitting just behind the bow seat facing the stern-this puts you nearer the center of the canoe making it sit more level in the water-instead of the end sticking up in the air (nearly impossible to control in the wind). When waterfowl hunting, I was jump shooting and had a 100 pound retriever that I taught to lie down on the bottom and not leave until I gave her the command (I usually beached the canoe for her to retrieve). I have also shot a 68" longbow from my canoe. Rise up on your knees, cant the bow, and shoot. Also, always have at least one spare paddle-if you drop your paddle overboard, without a spare-you are literally "up the creek without a paddle".
toms: If you're just going to float downstream, you can probably get away with a shorter canoe, but generally the shorter "sport" canoes are wide and don't track worth a darn so aren't much good if you actually want to paddle somewhere. You'll get there, but it will be a lot of work. And, if you manage to find a narrow, less than 30 inches wide, short boat, 12 feet or so, it won't be very stable.
I agree that something in the 14-16-foot range would be more versatile, and not a heck of a lot heavier. I think a perfect solo (hunting, camping, paddling) boat is about 15 feet long and 31-32 inches wide with a fair amount of rocker. Look around for something used. Folks are changing their set ups all the time. Can find some very nice used boats reasonably priced. Good luck.
16' Penobscot OT - seriously by the time you get you and hear and possible deer - 16 wont seem so big. Another thing is don't expect to be able to maneuver in the canoe!! Lol after spending time in yaks you realize canoes are meant to go one direction - downstream - battleship can turn tighter than that canoe. I love the canoe though it is fun when wife and daughter tag along.
I run a 16 Penobscot and a 14.5 ultimate by native watercraft. I am a camping minimalist and can go with the kayak. Have yet to kill while out of the kayak?? But like other times I will butcher them in the field so no worries.
You might check out the native watercraft ultimate?? You can get a solo basic for 8/9? They can haul ALOT and may suit you better than a full blown canoe? Just a thought.
Don't know how to do the image thing or I'd show you what I do.
South MS, that is a cool rig!
(http://***********.bowsite.com/TF/pics/00small51135246.JPG)
(http://***********.bowsite.com/TF/pics/00small21523291.JPG)
(http://***********.bowsite.com/TF/pics/00small45792973.JPG)
(http://***********.bowsite.com/TF/pics/00small76254127.JPG)
(http://***********.bowsite.com/TF/pics/00small47466872.JPG)
(http://***********.bowsite.com/TF/pics/00small55858465.JPG)
That's me in the little 12' canvas canoe next to the 26' North Canoe
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Lake_trip15.jpg)
Be sure and keep those bow tips on the outside of the canoe when shooting
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/the%20canoe%20shoot.jpg)
A real Birchbark canoe is the ultimate canoe experience.
(http://shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Birch_Bark_hunters.jpg)
I bought a sportspal square back 13 footer almost a decade ago. It's very stable, I have used it for hunting, fishing and even bowfishing. I can stand up in it and shoot my bow easily. We use it mostly for running traplines on the river these days, and you know you have to haul a lot of gear to do that. It's worth looking into. Although that golden hawk mentioned above perks my interest as well.
It will amaze you how much you can pack in a canoe.
(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL285/1460516/24261278/405729331.jpg)
Another thing about the NEXT canoe is it is an hybrid, a cross between a Kayak and canoe.
So in theory to provide you the paddelbility (new word :readit: ) of a Kayak and the carrying capacity of a canoe.
I have a Native Craft kayak, which is basically half kayak half canoe. Mine is a tandem 16' long. The seats can come out and be used on land. I have been wanting to do a trip in the Adirondacks for a bow hunt. I will pull the front seat and pack like I was going to back pack. I'll take a small cooler and would still have room to pack a deer out if I got lucky. Well made and thought out boats and mine has a tiller that you control with your feet.......tracks great.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ron LaClair:
It will amaze you how much you can pack in a canoe.
(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL285/1460516/24261278/405729331.jpg)
Thanks for sharing. Those are some cool pictures. What size is this one that's loaded down so much, and what size was the first one you posted in the snow? Just curious so I can visualize a little better how much room they have.
Two coolers? That is a base camp situation. I would look long and hard for a used kevlar at least 16 feet long. Something that would be in the Souris River Quetico or Mad River Explorer design, or a Wenonah Spirit if you want to go a little faster. My Mad River Explorer with a longer kayak paddle has become my solo canoe.
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
Two coolers? That is a base camp situation. I would look long and hard for a used kevlar at least 16 feet long. Something that would be in the Souris River Quetico or Mad River Explorer design, or a Wenonah Spirit if you want to go a little faster. My Mad River Explorer with a longer kayak paddle has become my solo canoe.
Just curious where you got two coolers from? Don't think I said anything about that in my OP. My two night setup would be a small cooler, a small tent, and one duffle bag. From pictures I've seen of canoes loaded down when searching around online, I think I could do it with a 13', even with a deer added on top, but I wouldn't have any room to spare. Add a pop up blind or a small climber and I think I'd need something bigger.
I've never done a hunting trip from a canoe but I used to guide canoe trips on a local river & lake during grad school -- most fun I've ever had working for somebody else. We typically ran 16' Old Town Discovery canoes for the trips but also had the Guide model -- which had less rocker and a flatter profile. While not as good for faster sections, the Guide model was great for beginners because it was more stable. In each of these, I've managed just fine by myself or with 1-2 other beginners with me + large ice chest. The river I ran was mostly just class 1-2 with a couple of 2+ or 3- sections -- nothing too technical. Lots of weight made things tough, for sure. But it was still doable.
Mad River Canoes were the next best thing and were even preferred by some of the other people I met on the river. The organization I was working for said they would have gone with Mad River instead of Old Town but Mad River only had wicker seats and, for insurance reasons, they had to do plastic-molded seats. So Old Town got the business.
Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on the length if it's just you in the boat. Even at 235 lb + gear & a deer, you can make it work just fine. Worst-case scenario, you'll have to wade through the shallow parts a bit more if your boat is too small. If you decide to head out for anything much bigger than a deer (say elk, moose, bear, etc.) then the added capacity may benefit you a lot more. But toting 500+ lb of canoe weight will be tough, no matter how long that canoe is.
Of course, if you hunt with a buddy or like to pack a full ice chest, 2-burner camp stove, etc. then go bigger. So much is going to depend on the river you're floating. Slow or fast? Is it a pretty technical river or pretty straight? Do you know the river well -- each of it's turns, bends & hidden obstacles? How is your skill overall? Match the boat with your use and skill as best you can but, in my opinion, there are far more significant variables in-play than an extra foot or two of length.
My wife and I just picked up some tandem kayaks that I'd like to use for hunting one of these days. Kayaks are much more maneuverable, faster and can easily carry all the gear & deer I'll ever get. Plus, they're much easier for a single person to carry. Granted, I can keep my packs fairly light. Any reason why you're looking at a canoe instead of a kayak?
My current 16 foot aluminum costs $25 as it was slightly torqued Son and I jacked in back into shape. Easy for me at my age to puy it on my truck by myself. J stroke rules for single person propulsion. I had one of my canoes registered and used a small electric motor when trapping. To stabilize for two hunters, lash a pole across center thwart, and then lash an intertube to each end to the pole. Both can stand to shoot, but will slow it down and wear you out paddling. Thirty years ago I did the boundary waters, eating fish and rice and learned to have survival gear in waterproof bags. Do not neglect this aspect of canoeing, even for day trips in colder weather. CANOES are another way of spelling FUN
Nice pictures Ron. I myself had a Radisson flat back a few years ago and should have kept it. Very light,well made canoe. I am using a Jackson Kayak now and really like it a lot. Not as much storage as a canoe. But it tracks better,and paddles upstream way easier as well. It is also very stable. Just something to consider. But getting to untapped areas with a canoe or kayak is always a great idea.
rat'
QuoteOriginally posted by YosemiteSam:
Any reason why you're looking at a canoe instead of a kayak?
I figured there would be more room in a canoe for gear. I actually have a 14' Heritage Angler kayak I bought for my son to fish out of earlier this year. It would work fine for day trips, but it'd be tricky getting a deer strapped on and balanced. It's not a high end kayak, so it's not extremely stable if you put much of a load on it.
I have two Old town Pack canoes which is the same really as the 119. Why two? Because they are awesome and most likely they will not be be made at some point in the future as all awesome products are prone to. Oh I forgot, they are royalex (which is no longer made) so my theory proves correct again!
You can get a lot of gear in for such a small boat. I have several larger canoes and the packs see the most water time by 4 to 1.
I think the Packs weigh 32 lbs if you can find one.
I have two Old town Pack canoes which is the same really as the 119. Why two? Because they are awesome and most likely they will not be be made at some point in the future as all awesome products are prone to. Oh I forgot, they are royalex (which is no longer made) so my theory proves correct again!
You can get a lot of gear in for such a small boat. I have several larger canoes and the packs see the most water time by 4 to 1.
QuoteOriginally posted by bswear:
I have two Old town Pack canoes which is the same really as the 119. Why two? Because they are awesome and most likely they will not be be made at some point in the future as all awesome products are prone to. Oh I forgot, they are royalex (which is no longer made) so my theory proves correct again!
You can get a lot of gear in for such a small boat. I have several larger canoes and the packs see the most water time by 4 to 1.
I've seen those before, but didn't realize they were that light. Just curious, how much gear do you mean when you say a lot? And how about hauling a dear along with the gear? If nothing else, I could get something similar for day hunts and a longer one for longer hunts.
Thanks
The two coolers are in Ron's pic. Which I think is a 16.5' royalex, with the pulled gunnels, perhaps an early Bell? I have noticed that people from the south gravitate to shorter wider canoes and people up north gravitate to longer canoes. I would stay away from those big wide Coleman plastic job. They are super heavy and you need to pack a team of mules to portage them.
Consider you're talking about a canoe to use hunting. Hunting seasons are in cooler or cold weather usually. No time to go into the drink with water at temperatures that will onset hypothermia quickly. That's why I would suggest a very stable design. Someone mentioned a Native Ultimate, and I can attest they are a super-stable platform. The "pontoon" hull design makes them extremely stable and the hybrid design allows for an "open" boat with high sides like a canoe. The Native comes in a shorter version and a longer 14' boat, which would be excellent for hauling a lot of gear. I would seriously consider one for hunting purposes, and that's coming from a guy who paddles a 119 canoe a lot in the past years.
I posted this elsewhere but it's apropos to this discussion. Two kayak fatalities last week, one in VA Beach (Navy Seal) and the other in MD (66 year old male). No details if they had dry suits but they both had PFDs but died of hypothermia. Your canoe and kayak are warmer weather boats and can be killers in cold water.
http://www.snaggedline.com/showthread.php?15820-Two-kayakers-perished-this-week-RIP
"I think the Packs weigh 32 lbs if you can find one."
My wife's long lost Swearingen cousin might have a spare that he could sell (gift) to me!
I don't remember if you stated how the big the water and how far you were going. You may be surprised to find that canoes can be addictive and maybe you should be prepared to have room for more than one. I had six in my garage for a while. You may be surprised also, that perfect conditions for paddling do not come as often as we would like. (http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/pavanldb/DSC01123inthecanoe-2.jpg) (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/pavanldb/media/DSC01123inthecanoe-2.jpg.html)
(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/pavanldb/DSC00117.jpg) (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/pavanldb/media/DSC00117.jpg.html)
There are monster under there (http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/pavanldb/DSC00148.jpg) (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/pavanldb/media/DSC00148.jpg.html)
This moose died in a pond that was only 40 yards wide and 60 yards long. (http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/pavanldb/DSC00189.jpg) (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/pavanldb/media/DSC00189.jpg.html)
There may even be boogey bunnies out there. (http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/pavanldb/DSC00167.jpg) (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/pavanldb/media/DSC00167.jpg.html)
pavan wrote: "canoes can be addictive"
Agreed. Good times to be had, hunting or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1x-ys6_jqA
Cheers,
Steve H,
That's funny!
I think you would be fine with camping gear and a nice buck in that 119 or a pack paddling in still water. Rapids and nasty water maybe not. I can duck hunt with a large golden retriever and decoys, spare clothes, etc., no problem. Hopefully your buck will sit more still than my 110 lb dog!
Be advised Black Widows don't float! Don' ask how I know this tidbit.
QuoteOriginally posted by bswear:
Be advised Black Widows don't float! Don' ask how I know this tidbit.
This is the second time my Palmer Longbow goes swimming!
I was paddling a creek and it snagged on a limb, out it went.
I have a 14' Pirogue a friend made for me from the pattern of my old one. It's a tad heavier but very solid.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f205/BasinHunter/Mobile%20Uploads/E73C1C91-2DEF-4003-B243-F137131B737D.jpg) (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/BasinHunter/media/Mobile%20Uploads/E73C1C91-2DEF-4003-B243-F137131B737D.jpg.html)
The new one on saw horses
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f205/BasinHunter/50E6B9ED-23DB-4115-BA6A-66B91C27F0FF.jpg) (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/BasinHunter/media/50E6B9ED-23DB-4115-BA6A-66B91C27F0FF.jpg.html)
The old one loaded with pack, stand and bow.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f205/BasinHunter/FB56C7A5-B683-43AC-87B3-CB9FA991BC2E-1221-000001463819EA72.jpg) (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/BasinHunter/media/FB56C7A5-B683-43AC-87B3-CB9FA991BC2E-1221-000001463819EA72.jpg.html)
Be surprised what these things can haul....
(http://i.imgur.com/dGoWXLw.jpg)
You could always try it this way, if you have a week or two. :)
Nice looking stripper. You run that on the Upper Iowa? Watch out on the Turkey in low water, that shale can be a bit sharp. Conditions were never good on the Skunk.
QuoteOriginally posted by BAK:
(http://i.imgur.com/dGoWXLw.jpg)
You could always try it this way, if you have a week or two. :)
That's beautiful. Building a wooden boat is actually one of the things on my bucket list. I was thinking a small runabout and hadn't really thought about doing a canoe. Might need to give that a try.
I have a Guide 119 and love it. I took the seat out that came with it and use a turkey hunting seat instead. RC
Good comment on how big the water is for your trips. Big water needs a big boat.
I have a 15', 35" wide wood and canvas canoe, the first one I bought in 1975. I sold it as many boaters are always looking for something... else. Went through a few "poly" boats, found the buyer of my first and got it back.
Some maintenance involved, but that little canoe has it all for me, plus the added benefit of the beautiful interior you're looking at as you paddle along. Doesn't seem important until you've experienced the "others".
A 35-36" beam will give good stability and longer length means the boat floats higher in the water, ie easier to paddle. Depends on how far your trips will be. The used craft is a good idea as many boaters are looking for something...else.
You have to assess where you're going to be paddling, what weather you're likely to be paddling in, what gear you want to take, etc. There is no such thing as a one-size fits all hunting canoe. I have 2 canoes and 2 kayaks, as long as 18 feet and as short as 11, all different designs and materials and none of them are right for some situations that I might want a boat for. All canoes can float downstream with a gentle current, but can you stay dry in big / fast moving rivers or even creeks with drops over ledges, etc? A longer boat is far superior for paddling in flat water, i.e. swamps and lakes, but do you need more maneuverability ? Long, narrow boats are fast and a joy to paddle but they turn slow and don't bend around trees. Likewise, are you a skilled enough paddler to keep a longer boat upright if the weather picks up and you've got to deal with crosswinds, waves coming over the gunnels? Will you ever need to paddle upstream against a current? Will you ever need to portage your boat single-handed over rough terrain? Are you going to car top or use a light trailer?
When you narrow down your list of possibilities, look up the local dealers in your area and see if they have demo boats or events for folks to try out boats, as that will give you some idea how they will handle.
Finally, take a look at https://wingmanoutfitter.com/product/canoe-cooler-outrigger/. Two coolers and camp table do double-duty as a platform and outrigger to stabilize your boat..best invention ever for canoe camping if you're not on a tight, winding stream.
www.sandypointboatworks.com (http://www.sandypointboatworks.com)
Check out this website if you're interested in building your own.
I copied this post by a fella named Al Agnew on River smallmouth fishing site. I found it so helpful I saved it to my phone. Maybe others here will benefit. If you've seen Bass Pro catalogs, you've probably seen Al's wildlife art.
Al Agnew Canoe Advice
From
http://forums.ozarkanglers.com/topic/21373-looking-to-buy-a-canoe/
Choosing the "perfect" canoe for you is never easy because no one design is the best answer for everybody. Everything is a compromise. At the same time, there are many canoes that will serve the purpose fairly well. I've spent a LOT of time paddling and fishing Ozark rivers, and have paddled a lot of different canoes. Here are my thoughts on various widely available canoes:
Old Town Royalex Penobscot 16
My personal favorite tandem canoe by far. Royalex is the best material for a fishing canoe because it is durable, quiet, slick (slides over logs and rocks without sticking), comfortable in weather extremes, and reasonably light in weight. The Penobscot is the fastest, best-tracking Royalex canoe on the market. Canoe designs are always compromises between tracking/speed and maneuverability, and the Penobscot leans a bit toward tracking at the expense of maneuvering, but on all but the small, narrow, twisty creeks, I don't think you need extreme maneuverability, and I want to be able to paddle easily through long, dead pools--and sometimes I need to paddle the last couple of miles of a float in a hurry or get there after dark! Plus, the same characteristics that make a canoe track well and slip through the water easily also make it easier to slow or stop the canoe in current in order to fish.
The Penobscot, being a narrow canoe for its length with a slightly rounded bottom, will feel tippy to those not used to it. It is not a canoe that you can stand up and fish in. But the straight, relatively high sides make it resistant to actually flipping. And the narrowness makes it easier to paddle solo from a position near the center of the canoe. In most tandems, as long as the seats and thwart placement allow it, you can solo by turning the canoe around and paddling from what was the front seat, but that still requires adding weight to the "front" of the canoe to trim it as level as possible. I much prefer to paddle from a position near the center of the canoe. If a canoe is too wide, you can't paddle efficiently from the center position.
There is also a 17 ft. Penobscot. It's heavier, but it paddles just as well and holds more gear (and heavier paddlers).
Old Town Camper
16 feet, 59 pounds, Royalex. It's a wider, slower canoe than the Penobscot, and has higher ends, which makes the wind affect it more. Not as good for soloing from the center, but a very good canoe that leans a little more toward maneuverability. There is also a 15 ft. Camper, but I'd recommend the longer version. In a tandem canoe, 16 or 17 feet is usually better for two reasons. One, a shorter canoe makes hooking some portion of your partner's anatomy while casting a little more likely. Two, longer canoes offer more options for stowing extra fishing rods.
Wenonah Spirit II
17 feet, 69 pounds in Royalex. It's a big, wide canoe that paddles very well and a great compromise between speed and maneuverability. Not as good for solo use, but certainly doable. Holds plenty of gear and is a nice craft to fish from, having pretty good stability both initial and final.
Mohawk Nova 16
16 feet, 65 pounds in Royalex. The Royalite is cheaper and lighter but not nearly as durable. A sweet-paddling canoe that tracks well and is pretty fast, but maneuvers fairly well also. Wide but solos pretty well. Mohawks are a little cheaper than some of the other Royalex canoes.
Old Town Discovery 158 and 169
These are the poly plastic Old Towns, 16 and 17 foot versions. The 16 (158) weighs in at 80 pounds, the 169 at 85. They are what I'd call vanilla designs that do everything okay and nothing really well, but are good fishing craft. The poly material has all the advantages of Royalex except that it's heavier. If you use a lot of difficult accesses or you're cartopping and can't handle heavy weights, the greater weight will be a definite drawback. But they are cheaper than Royalex canoes.
Old Town Osprey
A short 14 foot, very wide, 57 pound Royalex canoe. You may find short canoes to be easier to paddle solo, and if you do a lot of smaller creeks the short canoe can be helpful in getting through narrow, brushy riffles. I've already mentioned the drawbacks to short canoes. But this one is one you can stand in to fish if you have decent balance. Pretty much requires soloing from the front seat turned backwards.
More on other models tomorrow...
More canoe possibilities...
Wenonah Fisherman and Kingfisher
Two wide "angler" canoes. The Fisherman is somewhat comparable to the OT Osprey, 14 feet and 59 pounds in Royalex. The Kingfisher is 16 feet and 68 pounds. The biggest problem with these canoes is that they are too wide to paddle easily from a center position solo, and they are asymmetrical, so they don't work very well turning them around and paddling from the front seat.
Wenonah Heron and Aurora
Two "downsized" Spirit IIs. The Heron is 15 feet and 58 pounds, moderate width, flattish bottom, marketed as a canoe for the casual paddler. It would be an okay design for angling. The Aurora is 16 feet and 67 pounds. Of the two, I think I'd prefer the Aurora. Like other Wenonah models, they are asymmetrical.
Mad River Explorer 16 foot
72 pounds. It's a nice design that would paddle well and track well. The only thing I have against Mad River canoes is the shallow V bottom. The problem I see with it is that the apex of the V will catch most of the wear you get dragging over shallow riffles. With shallow arch bottom canoes, the wear is spread around a little more. Also, in recent years Mad River's reputation for well-built, durable canoes has suffered a bit. Take that for what it's worth.
Some comments on the other canoes that have been mentioned here...
Two Brothers Arkoda
16 feet, 72 pounds. Two Brothers has gone for sturdiness, and it shows in the greater weight of their Royalex canoes. Other than the weight, the only question I have with the Arkoda is that it has a lot of rocker. I haven't paddled one, but I would suspect that with four inches of rocker it would maneuver extremely well and track rather poorly. I can see this as a great canoe for some of the smaller Arkansas streams with sharper drops and rock gardens, but not as good a design for the larger Missouri rivers.
The Brightwater, at a little over 14 feet, would be a pretty low volume canoe for serious tandem use, it would seem to me.
Buffalo 16 foot
Like Two Brothers, Buffalo uses a heavier Royalex and goes for sturdiness. The 16 footer has less rocker than the Arkoda, but has very high ends that are real wind catchers. That would be my only real quibble with the design.
Coleman Scanoe
I was unable to find the weight of this barge, but I've helped lift and load it a number of times and it isn't a one man job. If your style of float fishing is putting in on larger streams at developed accesses and not floating more than 5 or 6 miles a day, taking your sweet time...or if you're planning on using a trolling motor, it's the canoe type craft for you. But I wouldn't want to have to solo one, and I wouldn't want to paddle it very far for very long. It simply isn't a real good all purpose craft. And the plastic that Coleman and Pelican uses is heavy, flimsy (hence the need for internal aluminum braces--otherwise the hull would flex all over the place), and very difficult to repair. But lots of anglers use Scanoes and like them just fine. And the price is right.
A mention for aluminum canoes...aluminum is still the most durable material...an aluminum canoe will probably outlive you unless you wrap it around a rock or drop it off the vehicle at 70 mph. Aluminum canoes are very vanilla designs that do nothing really well, and aluminum is noisy and very sticky and will burn you or freeze you. But a whole lot of people have used aluminum canoes all their lives with no real complaints.
So on the whole, you have to answer for yourself how much money you want to spend, how important initial stability is to you, whether you will use the canoe more tandem or solo, what kind of streams you'll most often use it on, how much weight you want to lift, how you'll transport it, and probably a bunch of other questions, all of which will have a bearing on which canoe will fit you best.
Last I had heard they stopped making Royalex. Not true?
You are correct Bruce I have a 16' camper very good boat but lots of dents on my royalex just cosmetic.Kip
I have a old town 119 and I must be a moose in a china closet. It isn't very stable for fly fishing. After the 1st time I headed for the shop and made me stabilizer for the rear. Now I can fish out of it. Wish I could bowfish out of it, but it don't work. Greg
I have a old town 119 and I must be a moose in a china closet. It isn't very stable for fly fishing. After the 1st time I headed for the shop and made me stabilizer for the rear. Now I can fish out of it. Wish I could bowfish out of it, but it don't work. Greg
Royalex is dead but there are used ones on the market. If you aren't going to run it in rocky rivers Kevlar is an option to cut down on the weight however it is very pricey.
119 is a little "fresh". But it takes quite a lot to put one completely over while seated. Kneeling is nearly impossible unless you hit a branch or rock.
The high siting seat that comes in the 119 is too high. If you get a bit lower the stability really picks up. I love the 119 because it paddles so good up stream and has a fair amount of room for a solo canoe. RC
I lowered the seat 4" in my 16' Penobscot back when I first got it. It just seems wobbly to me but then I wasn't and probably still not canoe savvy as most. When I dropped the seats though it was a WORLD of difference far as stability goes.
J
Anyone paddling a 119 that's using it for a fishing/hunting platform and not necessarily running fast water should seriously consider some modifications. A good friend of mine who has more experience in fishing from a canoe than most all, gave me some tips to modify my 119 to make it much more stable than in the stock configuration. 1st, the stock seat is horrible and its position puts the boat out of balance for a fishing platform. Good for running fast water, not so good for a stable fishing platform. The seat needs moved forward. Measure and mark dead-center of the boat. I trashed the original seat and bought a good Sitbacker. I then sanded and polyurethaned a good 3/4" oak board and installed where the front edge of the board is at dead-center of the boat. The seat straps to the board. This puts your torso just behind center and your legs/feet out in front of center, leveling the boat in the water. The front will no longer ride up, acting like a sail in the wind and will not spin as fast. But before you install the seat board or even cut it to length, you need to remove stock thwarts. Take 3 width measurements before removing the thwarts, 2 at each thwart and one at dead-center of the canoe. No, the boat wont fold up like a billfold when you remove the stock thwarts! Get in the boat at dead center and with your arms push out on the gunnels. The gunnels will indeed flex out some further than what the stock thwarts hold it at. It helps to have a buddy here to be ready to take a measurement. Push on the gunnels until you see the floor of the canoe flatten out some, and it will. And once you feel good resistance and the floor flattens some, take a measurement from under the gunnel to the other side, dead center. Need a buddy to do this. Once you have a measurement, cut a 2x4 or something that length and get back in and push out the gunnels and insert the 2x4 under the gunnels, holding the sides at the width you spread it. Now measure at the 2 thwart spots and at dead-center. Cut your seat board and cut two new thwarts at the longer lengths. Best of my memory my new thwarts had to be 1.75" longer than the stock ones. I'd have to go back and check to make sure but that sounds about right. Now your weight is centered in the boat, the canoe footprint has flattened out and produced a much more stable contour. You will be amazed at how much more stable the boat feels in the water. It now tracks good and don't spin at each passing breeze of the wind. Mine was stable enough for me to stand up and cast a fly rod out of. I also rigged a thru-the-hull anchor system directly out the center back using a drag chain that I can use never moving from my seat. I can slow the boat even in current or with enough rope out, come to a complete stop. I rigged keepers on my thwarts to secure anything that I needed to, to the boat, as I paddle through some rapids occasionally. Somewhere I have a file of photo's and such that I took while doing these mods and would be glad to share them if anyone is interested. I let a buddy who owns a Pack try my 119 and he was so amazed at how stable it was compared to his stock Pack that he went home and began the mods to his Pack.
QuoteOriginally posted by RC:
I have a Guide 119 and love it. I took the seat out that came with it and use a turkey hunting seat instead. RC
So RC, you just sit in the bottom of the canoe like you would against a tree turkey hunting?
Yes indeed. Its one of those lounge type seats that fold up. If I`m only going a short distance I don`t use a seat at all. I use my 119 for a short trip across the Altamaha River on public land. I can paddle 5 minutes and it saves a mile and half walk. Plus its just plain cool..RC
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/rcswampbucket/026_zpsnqfj7fz3.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/rcswampbucket/media/026_zpsnqfj7fz3.jpg.html)
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/rcswampbucket/036_zpsfycnmntc.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/rcswampbucket/media/036_zpsfycnmntc.jpg.html)
A doe this year. RC
I found this pic of the old seat thats fixed in that came on the boat verse the one from my Wifes Kayak. I bought a Turkey hunting seat that is a little higher than the yak seat and its more comfortable. RC
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/rcswampbucket/fish%20and%20kayaks/IMG_0542_zps264a5200.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/rcswampbucket/media/fish%20and%20kayaks/IMG_0542_zps264a5200.jpg.html)
The seat on the right will cause you to go swimming. RC
A fine boat for the midday fishing trip when its hot and late evening is the best time for hunting. RC
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/rcswampbucket/fish%20and%20kayaks/SAM_0177_zps17a771b9.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/rcswampbucket/media/fish%20and%20kayaks/SAM_0177_zps17a771b9.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/DarrinG/Canoe%20Kayak/OT119003.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarrinG/media/Canoe%20Kayak/OT119003.jpg.html)
I've spent many hours researching SOF canoes in the last few days (because of this discussion). I think I might just have to build myself one. Kudzu and David Gentry are the two dudes that sell plans from what I have found out. If I bought plans right now I would probably get a 16' Gentry.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/DarrinG/Canoe%20Kayak/OT119004-1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarrinG/media/Canoe%20Kayak/OT119004-1.jpg.html)
You can see from the photos above how the oak board for the New seat was configured, and if you look at photos of a stock 119, you'll notice the wider width and flatter bottom the modifications make. I got other pic a of the anchor system as well if anyone is interested.
That's a cool mod
That's a cool mod Darrin. Where did you get the brackets for the seat attachment? If it stabilizes the canoe as much as you say, that may put that one back on my list of options. I definitely like the price.
Matt, the brackets are the stock ones that came with the original seat. If you look closely, you'll see that I placed 1" PVC "spacers" between the board and the brackets. I cut a couple different length spacers and took the boat to the pond to see just how low or high I wanted the seat. Lower is usually better (stable), but with the hull mods, I was able to remove the spacers all together and bring the seat up higher and still have good stability. And that helps ALOT on your lower back and knees when youre fishing out of the boat all day!
I just sold a Bell Northwind which was great for tripping, camping, hunting on both rivers and lakes. Held lot of weight but I could also paddle it solo. I bought it from a local paddle sport rental shop in Upstate...they typically have a sale every year on rentals. This was one someobody bought and then brought back 3 months later and traded for a different model. I got it for right about $1000 if I remember right... You can find some good deals if you call the white water and rental shops in state or region...makes it worthwhile to make the drive many times.
Also, check out Holy Cow Canoe....they follow the tried and true trapper style that is very versatile...and also have factory blems at a much reduced price too.
Darrin thanks for mods on the 119. I changed mine in about an hour. 73.00 dollar improve. Now I can get rid of the stabilizer. My spread was close to 3" in the middle. I used one 1x12x 48 oak stair tread and two oak hand rails from home depo. Thanks again Greg
Boats and tradbows, they just go together!
Built a bunch of these 12-14ft pirogues over some years. Great for knocking around backwaters and such.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rOJ2T3tx1IQSmRNrgpkFfYjIy_YTDHLsSMz2_S2-6flS-k9UqIuO2cZkIcJd5FrB09GXTsTC8QlbwEIcjUEyijpoQqa2KBD63PUepMPyH6A5rx3bfn2Bgr3wNkALtO7RIK3CgXBmULLqFIbvzwqMKnmFWBvbpLzMnr_XdHPxNQNBeBgAG7W3cIGOzoOyvVoV-T8KaTytD-VQ3xBND8FPi2mwvSXAH74zGufztAuqwiKGcqXvf9WPcFtt1LepfFvhL3T4Ct4jig1lnivMfR9vEomx6gLp8OJlk-HcoyGOKRHigvxkiJMZl59ddNxGJ4TdiZEzW-0KGtjMmmnN3DSn85-daVzwJet2XJVa-xmR3OCP4bm8bOQSg01RM4ONXfDz_ilM2S5lgB2q3MFC5yVOu5_zDZeN3iV_CLYor2mvFUMuFZmjG2iZO5sJqfedfJDggrMH0u6IfU8KMRFqE0lloLkrUoPUUHZqnFdbomQh8Q0yb_R3vW_8RU8xoA4m-3ZedcGBfF84Dbqwc44vaUu6xuM9yFOF3X3tGqdksGJBR0nU_biasYvSj0heuvcA2wIxyFJiqOdeM3imn02vZsDWOTqF0Y2Yqu1kOO2yH0pxQd-DttkA=w480-h360-no)
One day I want to build a small stripper canoe, done these two yaks some years ago too.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ON7KRMRGhM3my7EE62zhO3GNWbB7qiCeeDl33PrCi30cYZNzPtyC_kVvlSF2NLGrxJLibb0keFog69ghiF8C8quBZOgiAjl5ECoZEkLt0GerSTx_oG2JOgL6Y5KupB92rNW-_hMb72t1gSoV2JKFOdwWxssEdMhk4vB5Zz95_L2IZcZdWwPr76jX6k6iY7dn93Rs3HR5dsMvfAP_UhmUlqmSYBM9Nd1TUTmDnSrcyLyHsyOw-1sKY_k1JxA5kXqcJl-qlLi9qAH10z1ZyALrrjHXSOt8cy88upefSuUIqwenrQlFBmJlyYcbPLil3WK3nfAfpJcTvDLnNFmgYcbEj3LT9QFjfh_Ymy3-AasI56R945hCsuG_Tdv685bilqPjFSCwV4hAGmqSaV8kfqC8wrQl4qBBFVQRZQnvDOHy6qGtxgc4lLiJdPxhl7k3i1pOhleduz71frsJEy-ykRMdScp38otWik0YJqiZ2eriomuJh_v0YfcnEsCg44eTbLwDjf8gQFEqniAbNOX_7cIzLfH0StwinLXY_7fY_8Oinb7gV8c6Cxjipt9Ydt5Rx2MLvdTg6oK_ZS6ZoIBLX3WEJocBwexpghxscmcyOIug4rmjKCRqU-_k=w1224-h918-no)
Right now my go-to is a Native Watercraft Ultimate 12... pretty easy all around. Paddles much faster than my pirogues too. Best seat in the biz too.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_wfye-vZeJ1EOANVgSjm3yFswghE-SElBeFfphD_D9E82Eb2IdGBNBHmfUfXpZJ-UPHyH26ZpwbYzw7BxYGQ-Xc7T4I4uh8P91m40Bij1dLEmUwp_C5SqQgYXZ6L9tl5BAqCXfBOIdyqFuVGlAobpmbk0UOK84YeK-KDAlFu6d2z5X0htc3pPtrJlgYhZk612j8Swlm-dSYtqfA1GGCCHp6qR2hSynWrTP36UOqDjgb5fRvfFwlDbcK2m6zzYogiek0m09HSn9ZTPQudJv89wpaEAdPCfO-L7e7QZKGsDPgrvJq9MQDfFFr3PKXD8b97m82CdBSQQLOJuyLjFk8FL2b07hist4rlzfh-eGRiBvPjVn_5R59DDiL8E8koBbskML5b5a6832-2Gcbec55Be8NPDS7WzI-oj1HsmrllTCSK5y65_zR-C0yJGyMlBliH34bfo44pA-4hbexhwagd8PPumbPeIp6weMxrpCIaei-PNA4XGTDXUyeaxac2a1mKxbY09kzJJzFXosfGLecxvao2UNFkBhyZL3I6pne4GQJOvAOl4ujSz0uuzVzFKjFQYubXs_n7H2lAKIEP25d-aGXMnLGoKQp4YekxEzosYAyFIQzb0tHD=w689-h918-no)
Ok, I see the brackets on the unmodified pictures now.
Thanks again to everybody for the input. Lots of good information has been shared, even if there are some differences of opinions.
Probably out of your price range...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdIxk7VeHI0
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/SteveHohensee/IMG_3212.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/SteveHohensee/media/IMG_3212.jpg.html)
Several Alaskan black bears got hauled downstream with this canoe one week a couple years back. That is the Great Xerxes AKA Matt Schuster up front.
This is no place for a flat bottom canoe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqvSOtgg6no&list=RDYqvSOtgg6no#t=40