Trad Gang

Are any groups promoting traditional bow only seasons in your state?
I was listening to Jason Samkoviack's podcast where he mentioned that a group in Oregon was. Mostly he was referring to crossbows. But also the effectiveness of compounds. Usually I just don't even care or bother to think about the hi tech hunters. But he is right to bring up  the subject..

Not that I know of here in Iowa. I wish there was though. I haven't even came across another trad shooter here since moving here close to two years ago.

Our bow season in ND goes from Sept 1 to the end of December. It already goes the full season. Where would we put an additional season? Unless we shortened the regular bow season. I don't think that would ever happen. We could give an additional tag for trad only and not change the seasons, but that wouldn't pass either because nearly all of the non trad hunters would be opposed to it unless they planned to use it to shoot two deer with the compound and put a trad tag on one of them. Nearly all of the bow hunting here is done with compounds over a baitpile, sometimes while sitting in heated shacks and shooting out the window. I hate to sound so cynical, but I don't think there would be much interest in methods that are traditional or challenging in this state.

Tedd,

You know how things are here in PA. Every special interest group except archers gets inclusion or special treatment. The "bow season" is hardly recognizable anymore. We have in-lines, jr's and sr's using rifles, crossbows, youth this and youth that. My gosh you better shoot the first deer you see before they all go nocturnal.

The real laughable part is that it was all done in the name of "science"!

If PA did have a traditional only season every current compounder or x-gun user would run out the week before to buy a cheap recurve so they could join in. A trad only season will never happen and I would not support it. Unfortunately, the traditional mindset is foreign to the masses.

I think that could possibly cause a rift in the bow hunting community, between Traditional and wheelies/x-bows. The antis would love to see that.
We are all in this together.

What would be gained with a trad only season? We have a lot of time to bow hunt in Pa now. Pretty close to 3 months we can hunt deer with our bows. I've fought the crossbow wars with the UBP and we lost. To be honest I just don't care anymore about the seasons. I just hunt and I hardly ever see another bow hunter in the woods!

I'd just like to see a longer general archery hunting season here in Wyoming. We get the month of September for deer/elk, antelope will usually open in August sometime depending on the area. Nice country to hunt in and uncrowded, I seldom see another hunter and have never, that's right never seen another trad hunter outside of the two pals I hunt with.

After thinking about this subject, I would like just a section of "public hunting land" to be set aside for traditional archers. But that chances of that are "zero" because of the backlash of the wheelie bow tax payers.

QuoteOriginally posted by Zwickey-Fever:
After thinking about this subject, I would like just a section of "public hunting land" to be set aside for traditional archers. But that chances of that are "zero" because of the backlash of the wheelie bow tax payers.

I would think that you would then be OK with a section of public hunting land being set aside for just compound archers and so on...
You can see where that would be headed.

That would be a very bad thing to happen.  Because you understand what would happen next? Trad only season, then xbow only season then gun only season then black powder only season and now with the re-introduction of the dreaded air gun, an air gun only season. Once you have one selected season for one group others will fall in line for their season.

Very very bad idea.

Yup, it would just shorten when we can hunt.    It never will change as we humans seem bound and determined to proceed with the philosophy the the easiest kill is the best kill.

In WI. not that I'm aware of. And, I hope it stays that way. We have more than our share of "special seasons" already.

I would just be happy if they could keep all the non archery stuff from squeezing into the current archery season. Currently in Texas we have MLD (special permits) folks that can rifle hunt in "Archery Only" season, Youth rifle hunts that are held during the "Archery Only" season, and x-bows allowed all the time during the "Archery Only" season. If much more creeps in, "Archery Only" won't mean much around here!!!

Bisch

Bisch, I hear ya. we have an inline doe/senior center fire doe season  right in the middle of our "archery season"

If we did have a traditional bow only season here in PA, I'm not sure when it would occur so that you still aren't sharing the woods with other hunters.  Regular archery season runs from the first of October to mid-November. Then we have the bear archery season for a week, so we'd be out there with compounds and xbows.  Then we have the rifle bear season.  Then the week after Thanksgiving starts the rifle deer season. Then flintlock and archery come back in the day after Christmas.  The only time slot that isn't already consumed by other big game seasons would be the two weeks between the end of rifle deer season and Christmas.  Or it would need to be in September - prior to regular archery season.

Even on public land, I rarely encounter any other "archery" hunters, so I don't think it would benefit me any.  I probably still couldn't kill a deer - LOL.

QuoteOriginally posted by creekwood:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Zwickey-Fever:
After thinking about this subject, I would like just a section of "public hunting land" to be set aside for traditional archers. But that chances of that are "zero" because of the backlash of the wheelie bow tax payers.

I would think that you would then be OK with a section of public hunting land being set aside for just compound archers and so on...
You can see where that would be headed. [/b]

My point there was that there is noway to make everyone happy that hunts. Land set aside for traditional archery would draw complaints from the compound community, land set aside for archery only would draw complaints from the firearm community. I seen it back east to where they had a archery only zone, which lasted for about three years under heavy scrutiny.

Though there can always be other motives, my understanding of the OR discussion is about the harvest #s.  Long season + tech equip =  high animal harvest.  

The discussion involves shortening the season for management #s.  However- the trad discussion enters as there are far fewer trad folks and success rates are much lower.  Summary:  Shorten bow seasons for tech- while allowing trad to remain.

Hardly a discussion in eastern whitetail states. Plenty of deer in most places as it is.

Interesting discussion

Dan in KS

In spite of all the other weapons in the woods my hunts are "trad only". We can choose who we hunt with and I choose to hunt with other stickbow archers. All my buddies and hunting partners are trad only. The bow is what drew us together in the first place.

It's not that I won't hunt with a compounder, I just don't.

Unfortunately, sharing is the future.  But what I really want, is for a separation of statistics.  Wisconsin has done that, to a point, regarding crossbows and "other bows".  

I would like them to split off traditional gear as well.  With computerized tracking etc it should be no big deal.  

Right now it won't change a thing, but with the change in "preferred gear" and the uptick of crossbow, and maybe (likely ?) that airbow thingie in the future, things will change.  

Already we have seen a drop in numbers in the far north, winter kill for sure, but numbers are changing, here and other places.  

Why the statistics ?  Because then, when the dynamics of the herd change, and eventually it will, we have hard data showing that traditional archers have the least impact on the herd and maybe we can keep our normally generous seasons while they adjust the portions that have more impact.
CHuckC

I don't see any real benefit from it, but I do see potential problems. Compounds, and even crossbows, are repugnant to many of us, but they really don't impact us much. Essentially, we are restricted to about 20 yards, while they shoot out to 40 or so. No big deal at all to me. But pushing for a trad only season might create enmity between wheel shooters and stick shooters that would create a political battle. Anti-hunters would benefit from such infighting.

As far as the actual hunt goes, they sit in their stand, and I sit in mine. I don't give a rip what weapon they use. I have shared the woods with compounders and gun hunters and have not been hampered at all.

When harvest estimates are predicted, I think the numbers are primarily based on the expected kill rate of the wheel guys. After all, trad is hardly a blip on the radar in most areas. Archery only is a good thing for us, but trad only simply is not needed. Just my own personal opinion, and not trying to start a fuss.

Well said Sam.

I've seen too many fights among hunter groups.  

One of the worst signals you can send to your regulation-setting FW Commissions and Boards is one of elitism. While wanting a separate season may be motivated by resource allocation, it will often be seen as "we are better and more deserving than them".  Many will think it really means wanting to kick others out of the season. In my mind, we are no different than the antis if we head down that road.

I haven't been to a KY FW Commission meeting since I retired in 2007 (except to provide NASP® updates around the country).  If a proposal came up in may home state of KY for something like this I would first try to reason otherwise with those who pursued it. If I failed in that, I'd attend the regulation meetings and oppose it.

To do otherwise would mean (in my mind)  I'd be agreeing with those who say my son and my grandson's should stay home while I go afield with my recurve.  My recurve would become a wedge in hunter relations. My children certainly wouldn't be inspired to emulate me or my methods.

The only impact any other hunter, not matter their methods, has on me is the requirement to wear orange when rifle or muzzle-loader seasons overlap archery.  Sometimes I don it and go and other times I take a weekend off.

Over three decades working in wildlife agencies I am certain we have the "compounders" to thank for the long seasons (in the east) we enjoy today.  If bowhunter harvest (ok, kill) was too low, firearms seasons would be longer.  A county that can support 25 deer/mile cannot be allowed to reach or remain at twice that level or societal carrying capacity will get the politicians with their "next election vision" involved, and then we all go backward 100 years.

Having written all that, I will offer that western habitat and population levels are a different dynamic than in the east. I've had some wildlife directors say to me, "Why do would we want to create more bowhunters (or any hunters for that matter) when we have fewer permits than hunters already?"

Intend to agree with the majority here. Nothing to be gained.

I don't think anyone wants:
1 day of selfbow season
1 day of self bows backed by performance enhancing sinew.
1 day of trad longbow
1 day of performance enhancing recurve
1 day of single cam season
1 day of dual cam season
1 day of recurve crossbow season
1 day of compound crossbow
1 day of vertical crossbow
1 day of airbow
1 day of flintlock
1 day of percussion
1 day of inline muzzle loader
Etc etc etc.

We all chose to hunt with different weapons for different reasons.  Hunt with your weapon in your style, let others do the same and be happy.

I think the only approach to achieve such a thing would be to lobby for areas which allow no hunting, to allow us crazy stick and string guys in. After all, there are only like 12 of us in the country and combined we kill 1.23 animals per year, so how much harm could we possibly do?    :goldtooth:

How about having a traditional arrow only season instead?  That way folks can shoot any bow and wood arrow they want.   :)

QuoteOriginally posted by TSP:
How about having a traditional arrow only season instead?  That way folks can shoot any bow and wood arrow they want.    :)  

Hey I could get behind that. I'd love to see what the industry could come up as far as a wood shaft to handle compound speed.    :scared:

Realize again, the OR discussion looks as if it is NOT about trad vs compound vs gun etc.   The discussion is about harvest #, success rates and length of bow season. The original reasons for long bow seasons and even special muzzleloader seasons had to do with more "primitive" weapons that had lower success rates.  As things have advanced with technology the original margins of those seasons are being reviewed.

This is not about trad vs other weapons but whether they should reduce the length of the OR bow season due to success rates.  With THAT the honest conservation discussion reintroduces the discussion about success rates for trad bows (original intentions) vs tech bows.

So- I guess to keep some from feeling "picked on," OR should just shorten their season for everyone.  On the other hand they could shorten the season for certain weapons while leaving a longer bow season for trad equipment. . .  of course they may have to offer "safe zones" with playdough, color books, and therapy dogs for those who have been traumatized by the decision.     :bigsmyl:

Dan your assessment of the topic is spot on! It's not a discussion on what weapon deserves what, or what weapon should or shouldn't be used. It is about archery season harvests getting very high due to technology in equipment and what states will do to keep the harvest numbers during archery season from getting to high. Most likely that will be to shorten the season. The big question is if that season gets shortened should it be shortened for the weapon s responsible for the easier killing or for all weapons during the season.
My thought is tradbows have been "the archery season" since the beginning and our equipment is unchanged since the beginning. But now we have huge advances in compounds and also xbows. Maybe if harvest numbers for archery get to high we should only limit the season for those weapons that are killing the huge majority of the animals. Trad bowhunters have been her doing their low impact hunting since the beginning. Why should we give up a portion of our season because modern bowhunters want it easier and over harvest areas. After all we are still doing exactly the same thing we always have. Enjoying the woods, enjoying long seasons, and taking a few (hardly even noticeable numbers) animals. Over harvest requiring shorter seasons has never been something we caused or took part of. Why should we have to go down With the ship?

Well said LB!  To add just a little bit to what you said, not only do the advancements in equipment make it easier to harvest, it also allows more people to enter or opportunity. While some may see this as a good thing, we seem to have forgotten that bowhunting is not for everyone, archery maybe, but definitely not bowhunting.
Thanks,

Here in NY, the rules are convoluted enough.

For example, in our southern zone, late bow season overlaps with muzzleloader, so you can hunt either weapon for that 10 days. But if your buddy hunts with a  muzzleloader and you hunt with a bow, same day, same property, its legal as long as you never meet up and help each other while one has a bow and one a smokepole ... that oddly enough is illegal. Why? No one knows. Probably because they wrote the law poorly and some lawyer decided that's what it meant.

Anyway, my point is that I can already bowhunt from the start of the deer season on 10/1 to the last day usually around December 15, and Dec. 31st in some areas.

I don't worry about what everyone else is doing. I rarely see another bowhunter even on public land, and when I do they're usually doing something stupid. I'd rather spend my time finding more private land to hunt than arguing with politicians about another law for the rule books.

Cheers

Well said all... I agree that segregation = less opportunity.

I would like to see individuals who choose to use traditional weapons be rewarded in some way, maybe let them start a week earlier or hunt a week later? Or maybe a bonus tag if successful filling original tag? Something should be done to try and limit use of technology in our sport.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
I would just be happy if they could keep all the non archery stuff from squeezing into the current archery season. Currently in Texas we have MLD (special permits) folks that can rifle hunt in "Archery Only" season, Youth rifle hunts that are held during the "Archery Only" season, and x-bows allowed all the time during the "Archery Only" season. If much more creeps in, "Archery Only" won't mean much around here!!!

Bisch

I hear ya - same in NC, jr rifle day middle bow season and I see a lot of really old jrs out there this yr! I don't mind the crossbows and wheelies but even "jrs" should have to stick with a bow in bow season.

Fought the fight against the crossgun with the UBP, but  have to agree with the other  Pa. guys on here that I don't see many other  hunters in bow season, could be that I'm willing to hoof a ways on public ground(where 4wheelers aren't supposed to be) and the other being I hunt way more mornings than evenings since I retired, not that I won't pull an all dayer  during the chase phase of the rut.

I think 90℅ of you guys miss the whole point of this topic...lol
Read the post by myself or by ksdan. Actually dan even posted it twice.

Haven't heard of anything like this in CA.  We're all pretty grateful to still be allowed to hunt at all for what little game there is to find in our short seasons.

Would I support such a measure?  Sure.  But I'm pretty cynical about what good my support or that of traditional bowhunters could have in this political machine.  By support, I only mean that I'd feel happy about it.  But mostly for selfish reasons.

If I were to impose some sort of weapons restrictions, I feel that restricting firearms of all types would be a good help since the noise intrusion it brings puts wildlife on edge.  Traditional bows, compounds, crossbows, air rifles, etc. are all quiet weapons with effective ranges at less than 100 yards.  That seems plenty good enough for me & more in-line with our evolutionary capabilities and that of our prey's.  I own, shoot and have hunted with firearms -- 2A supporter.  But nothing puts wildlife on edge & under pressure like the sound of gunfire.  I don't need to shoot something to enjoy the hunt but I certainly need to see something.  The advent of rifle season definitely makes that all the more difficult.

But, like I said, I'm pretty cynical about the political process & have no delusions about being able to influence it one way or another.  So I have the luxury of not having to think too hard about it all.

Simple solution to the harvest # issue that is apparently the driving force in OR.  Reduce # of tags issued to each hunter.  

Now, to be fair, I don't know how many tags OR hunters get or what animal species is even being discussed, but most states that I've heard of issue at least two doe tags and one buck tag.  (I said most, so nobody get all worked up if you get fewer than that)  Louisiana is three antlerless, two antlered, and one either sex.  

But let's say every hunter gets two doe tags.  Now if half fill one tag and half fill both tags, then reducing it to one doe tag per hunter would reduce the total doe harvest by 1/3.  If Trad hunters are typically less successful, then odds are that they're less likely to fill both tags than compound hunters.  That means they are affected less by the reduction in tags, but everybody gets to keep their season, and the other hunters can't gripe about trad archers getting special treatment.  I know I've over simplified the issue, but it beats shortening the season in my book.

If a state would decide to have a traditional only season for whatever reasons who would be responsible for the definition of "Traditional" archery and decide what is and what is not allowed during this season. I would think this could be a potential issue with how each person defines "Traditional"

Rodney

First, we need good exposure. We ( and I mean all hunters) will need individual states to offer public hunting areas which are under draw systems to have a traditional only game land/wildlife management area (perhaps along with other management hunts as well)
Personally I think a traditional  or primitive archery season of some type is a must, now may not be the time but at some point technologies such as the air bow will begin to creep into archery only seasons.  Also, as crossbows become more and more popular bow hunting with compound bows will become less and less popular,  we are already seeing it in many eastern states. I foresee in the next 20 years a compound bow becoming obsolete. It is at this point that we will want to have our foot in the door for a  traditional/no cams/weeks archery season.

Speaking of individual wildlife areas being traditional only, Oklahoma has one here at the McAllister Army ammunition plant, Oregon has a draw hunt that is traditional only as well I think. This would allow private land owners to utilize their properties as they like the public land to have more opportunities for primitive equipment.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, modern archers will quickly become interested in the improved trophy and hunting quality on these lands and this will offer good exposure for a traditional only management system when the time comes.

QuoteOriginally posted by dagwood64:
I think that could possibly cause a rift in the bow hunting community, between Traditional and wheelies/x-bows. The antis would love to see that.
We are all in this together.

You bring up a good point and this is the mantra that those folks who are pushing new technologies are using. I for one am very tired of hearing this argument! Do you think Fred bear, pope, young, case and others caused a rift between hunters when they and fought for our first bow hunting seasons! Yes they did!  The first archery seasons did bring intense debate and much bad publicity, however they one out in the end and we have lengthy seasons that most of the nations do not because of it!
The argument for primitive seasons in a nutshell:
"Minimize effectiveness to maximize opportunity"

If we take a slow approach many who are like-minded but shoot compounds as of now will come to our side in the future

QuoteOriginally posted by RodL:
If a state would decide to have a traditional only season for whatever reasons who would be responsible for the definition of "Traditional" archery and decide what is and what is not allowed during this season. I would think this could be a potential issue with how each person defines "Traditional"

Rodney

It's pretty simple:
No wheels or cams, 0 let off
No Release mechanism (with a handicap clause)
No electronic rangefinding equipment
No sights (this is debatable and probably not necessary)

BTW I've been watching these questions surface on social media and other websites and I'm compiling a list of the counter arguments, i'll be posting on social media to address some of these arguments which are both poor and good points.

Oops double post, sorry about the errors AutoCorrect on a smart phone can be annoying

I don't see how hacking our season up any more can be beneficial. The only thing I would like to see is it extended into January. So I guess they can add 4 weeks of trad only atvthe end of everything else. Of course it wouldn't do much good at reducing herd numbers so I don't see how it would hurt anything.

Imagine the increase in the traditional archery industry if hi tech equipment w restricted. Bear Archery might be back in it's glory days?
Since most are saying archery seasons are already long and there is no room to add a traditional season. Should the question be - Should part of archery season be traditional only?
 Any healthy person using a crossbow in archery season is cheating themselves out of the experience that is bow hunting. They are taking a  shortcut. I would guess that the politicians that allowed the crossbows to be added were so ignorant of the subject that they were easily buffaloed. One state passed them so the rest did.  Crossbows hardly existed a few years ago and now outnumber traditional hunters.

I don't want to be grouped with x bow hunters.  We shouldn't go down with their ship.
(i am in agreement with bows for health reasons)

QuoteOriginally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
I don't see how hacking our season up any more can be beneficial. The only thing I would like to see is it extended into January. So I guess they can add 4 weeks of trad only atvthe end of everything else. Of course it wouldn't do much good at reducing herd numbers so I don't see how it would hurt anything.

Yes we would need to settle for the end of season

Yes and very much have a handicap exemption

You would think that Trad guys would be all over this as a key discussion.  Its NOT a debate about personal preference, what/how-much season one "deserves", my weapon is better than yours, chopping up a season, etc (I personally could care less if a guy wants to hunt with a gun, compound, trad, crossbow, spear. ..  I really do not care!)

The issue being raised really is a Renaissance of the discussion that gave us special seasons back 50+ years ago. With the introduction of more and more technology- the harvest rates have increased, which needs to be addressed.  

For Matt's point earlier- its just one tag Matt.

Remember again - its a CONSERVATION discussion.  Harvest #s in archery season are too high. Read that again: (Given the premise being stated by F&W) Modern archery is harvesting too high %.  You only have a few viable options:  1) Reduce the length of the season.  2) Alter the season to protect the rut and even perhaps early summer pattern seasons.  Or,  3) Re-define what "archery" equipment means and create limits- perhaps having various limited hunting days for particular weapons.    

Lengthy seasons for bowhunting were predicated on the harvest rate of the weapon.  And much of that was predicated on trad bows!

BTW- As noted by Michael, definition of equipment is not difficult.  CO already does this with limits on what a "muzzleloader" means for the muzzleloader season.  (iron sites, loose powder, and a few other specifics)  

The very fact that this is even being discussed in the public arena is a VERY positive for trad archery/hunting.    

Dan in KS

I think the entire month of October in Iowa should traditional archery only, with no overlapping youth or muzzleloader seasons.

QuoteOriginally posted by KSdan:
You would think that Trad guys would be all over this as a key discussion.  Its NOT a debate about personal preference, what/how-much season one "deserves", my weapon is better than yours, chopping up a season, etc (I personally could care less if a guy wants to hunt with a gun, compound, trad, crossbow, spear. ..  I really do not care!)

The issue being raised really is a Renaissance of the discussion that gave us special seasons back 50+ years ago. With the introduction of more and more technology- the harvest rates have increased, which needs to be addressed.  

For Matt's point earlier- its just one tag Matt.

Remember again - its a CONSERVATION discussion.  Harvest #s in archery season are too high. Read that again: (Given the premise being stated by F&W) Modern archery is harvesting too high %.  You only have a few viable options:  1) Reduce the length of the season.  2) Alter the season to protect the rut and even perhaps early summer pattern seasons.  Or,  3) Re-define what "archery" equipment means and create limits- perhaps having various limited hunting days for particular weapons.    

Lengthy seasons for bowhunting were predicated on the harvest rate of the weapon.  And much of that was predicated on trad bows!

BTW- As noted by Michael, definition of equipment is not difficult.  CO already does this with limits on what a "muzzleloader" means for the muzzleloader season.  (iron sites, loose powder, and a few other specifics)  

The very fact that this is even being discussed in the public arena is a VERY positive for trad archery/hunting.    

Dan in KS

For clarity, it's just one tag in OR, or where you're at in KS?  Wasn't positive what you meant there.  In a situation where each hunter already only has one tag, then yes, a reduction in season length would be needed, and in that case, I'd say the trad community has a legitimate argument for having a separate longer season.  The only other option would be to go to a lottery tag system, which I'm not a fan of unless it's the last option remaining to get reasonable harvest numbers.

Matt- OR (like many western states)  One tag.  But the pertinent discussion is the higher % harvest #s with modern archery equip.

My points have to do with hunter-driven efforts to change seasons. I realize KSDan offers that OR DW is making this examination of success rates.   I'd be very surprised if ODW is looking at this on its own.   Agencies are often "inspired" by special interests.

Here are the 2015 all-season hunter success rates of some western states (deer and elk combined):
WY - 44.3
ID - 26.2
UT - 25.9
MT- 22.4
CO - 19.8
OR- 16.8
WA- 11.5

These stats include all equipment users. I don't have the archery-only stats in front of me.  However, I would be surprised if you tease out the gun hunters if bowhunter success would be greater than 8%?  I doubt success rates for archery, no matter the equipment, are significant enough to warrant any reductions if the real goal is to reduce take.  

If the agency feels the need to reduce hunter days to reduce take it will be most effective doing so with firearms days; reduce total days or change dates. However, this is tough for some to do without hitting everyone, including the bowhunters who have less impact.

Most agencies value "Recreational Days" quite highly.  This is where bowhunting shines.  We can hunt for 30 days and achieve a fraction of the firearms harvest but add up to a lot of recreation days.

The agency's first responsibility is to the resource. However, without strong hunter support, the resource is in great danger. If there is a problem the agency should be looking for a solution that doesn't take anything from any current user group, at least not without some type of trade off.

I'm not fond of these options but some are:
- Open seasons on a weekday
- Close seasons on a Saturday
- Go to one bull or buck rule/season/all equipment types
- Reduce OTC tags to more strictly control take
- If not currently legal, allow archers to bow hunt during the firearms seasons. This will remove some who are choosing firearms to take bows thus reducing harvest.

Here's a wild one. For a long time many states were implored not to allow electronic aids on the bow (lighted sights and lighted nocks). I'd argue, for a lot of western bowhunters the range finder is a far more essential tool. What if rangefinders were outlawed? Most hunters want to hit what they are shooting at. Without a range finder these hunters would be forced to take far closer shots, which would translate to fewer shots taken, fewer animals killed.   I know, some would guess badly and simply wound but these folks are making other decisions that lead to unrecovered game already.

Don't get me wrong, I like my rangefinder, just bought a new Sig in fact to replace Leica.

Finally, just a comment on JR firearms hunting seasons. We have a weekend for youth firearms during our bow season (and one for MZZL too). I see no problems with these seasons. Especially the youth one. October (when our JR season occurs) is much more mild weather than our November firearms season.  

Giving parents a chance to introduce their youngsters to deer hunting then often gets these kids hunting at an earlier age.  Here in KY, the last time I checked we had around 3,000 youth hunting during the Oct. JR firearms weekend. The only kid I've seen hunting during that season has been my grandson.

Most 10-year olds are ill-equipped  to bow hunt at that age. Yep, I see some 6-7 year olds in pictures with bows and deer.  Call me skeptical to the extreme.

We have enough seasons already - just leave it alone.

My personal opinion is there are too many dedicated season's for the weapon used.  Here in Illinois you can hunt from October 1st until January 15.  You cannot bowhunt during the shotgun season weekend before and after christmas.  During Muzzleloader week have to wear blaze orange.  This is for whitetail deer.  I thought the whole reason for hunting season's was conservation and keep population in check.  What does it matter what "item" you are using to take the game.  I get the blaze orange for safety, since majority of people do not identify what they are shooting at.  Now you can use a crossbow in December.

The arguments made to split (trad vs modern) archery seasons or areas are almost universally centered around the need to lower the archery hunt success rates in a given period or location. There really is no other argument which holds water at the level of state game management. If state game management ever agrees that archery success rates are too high...and that something must be done to limit the overall archery take...that state's game management will look at multiple logical actions which could accomplish that. Maybe one of those would be to split off a separate period or place for traditional archery hunting only.

I think any state would look very hard and critically at what a separate season entails in terms of implementation, management and logistics. The harder it is to make happen and manage at the state level, the less likely we'd ever see it. Then there is the matter of immediate measurable results. How rapidly would the state see a change in kill stats and improvement in game numbers? What course of action would yield the fastest and most dependable results? Cost-benefit ratios always matter for managers.

What about the consequences...if unintended...of 'taking' opportunities away from modern archery hunters? PR nightmare? Would the state be better to simply limit access, tags, and opportunities equally across the spectrum of bowhunters? If you were a politician or management official looking at this, would you see the logic in upsetting 50 typical modern bowhunters while pleasing 1?

While I love my weapon and style of hunting, I simply do not realistically ever see any state favoring me (or us) with an exclusive traditional archery season if it appears to remove opportunities from modern archers. I just think the states will see it as far too exclusionary given the relative few traditional bowhunters compared to modern ones. I also think the fallout from splitting weapons and potentially angering a majority of bowhunters (modern weapons) would be a huge concern for managers.

In the end I suspect most states would very logically consider all the possibilities. If bowhunters are too successful then bowhunters will share any loss of opportunities. I've never seen a state remove opportunities from modern bowhunters while keeping them for traditional bowhunters. That's because basically no state recognizes traditional bowhunters as a separate entity statewide in their management plan. As far as management goes, we are part of the overall bowhunting group...not separate and distinct.

Recurves and longbows...the original modern bowhunting tools of the past...were eclipsed by today's weapons. Swallowed up in the enormous bulge of tech progress. Getting a state or states to ever see these more traditional weapons and users as a separate and distinct entity worthy of their own season would be unlikely, given that most management people (and people in general) are not given toward solutions which appear regressive and divisive.

As for myself: I could only ever argue in favor of a traditional season if I saw it as the BEST solution for a problem r/t game management and kill numbers. Since I've never been a guy who thinks in terms of trad vs modern....I would likely find it very hard to take opportunities away from some bowhunters while having them for myself. That's just me, and I'm not saying I'm right....just honest.

True Kevin! Think about it this way though, in some areas (western states especially) modern bow hunters are taking away opportunities from themselves and others including those like us who choose to limit ourselves.

Great input Kevin and Roy.  Apart from understanding the OR discussion that seems to be unfolding, I always assumed- for the most part- that Trad (and all archery really)  rode on the back of firearms as a conservation tool.

Thanks guys
Dan

QuoteOriginally posted by KSdan:
...I always assumed- for the most part- that Trad (and all archery really)  rode on the back of firearms as a conservation tool.

I get that completely, but here's a contrast.

In Ohio the total yearly archery deer kill has basically achieved parity with the main firearms season. The numbers can be picked, but the big messages here are that bowhunting is huge, bowhunting is as important to deer management as are guns, and bowhunters have a big voice in deer management. Killing enough deer is a yearly objective of our state.

If anything was enacted to seriously lower bowhunting success here, the winners in Ohio would be the firearms hunters who would gain additional time...in order to kill enough deer to meet the management objective. Point being every state is different of course.

Kevin- very interesting. . . So in OH case, modern archery (given tech, length of season, etc) has really raised the bar as to its effectiveness as a harvest/conservation tool.

Good discussion. . will be interesting to see how this unfolds in OR.

Dan in KS

KSdan...most definitely...bowhunting with modern gear has drastically altered success rates and (subsequent) management strategies here. Interpretation (as good or bad) is up to the individual. In Ohio the 50-year progression of bowhunting has brought in more people and given bowhunters a greater voice in hunting opportunities.

KS Dan, same here in my home state, archery season represented 12% of the harvest in 1990, it represents approx 30% as of the last few years and is climbing each year in stats. I think that Archery would represent more but our rifle season runs smack in the middle of the rut where as ohios runs later.

Michael I agree with your assessment regarding firearms during the rut. Hunters are not dumb and they know the rut is THE season to kill. They will be out there with bow, gun or grenades...whatever the legal weapon. A huge number of deer are taken here with bows during the rut which pushes archery success rates higher.

As to your previous post:

QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Arnette:
True Kevin! Think about it this way though, in some areas (western states especially) modern bow hunters are taking away opportunities from themselves and others including those like us who choose to limit ourselves.

Just don't forget that state game management divisions don't recognize two groups of bowhunters. They recognize bowhunters. The successful effort(s) to get states to see and then officially recognize 2 completely different bowhunting ideologies is what hasn't happened. The state doesn't see it as them and us. Modern bowhunters don't see it as them and us. Some traditionalists DO see it as them and us, but that is probably a miniscule drop in the bucket of total bowhunters afield who all have skin in this game.

The reality is there are currently few reasons and no will for a state to risk dividing their bowhunters into separate divisions and enduring the fallout which might well extend beyond bowhunters. Convincing them to do that will be a monumental task and they will still need to see that avenue as being better than simply limiting bowhunting opportunities overall...which is probably a more logical / less risky strategy in their minds. The objective is to solve a problem while not creating a subset of new problems.

I don't think we necessarily 'deserve' our own seasons. I only think they should happen if a state sees them as the best way to manage bowhunting success rates. I doubt they ever will, though. It comes down to minorities, majorities, and political power. If it came to a public hearing where the stakes are 'Traditional bowhunters would gain their own season, while modern bowhunters could lose x% of their opportunities', anyone care to speculate what that hearing room would look and sound like?

I don't know if it still exists but Idaho used to have a "recurve/longbow" pre-season in some smaller areas.  I heard it was because an agency commissioner/board member was a fan of those types of bows.  These might have been newly opened hunting areas where to restrict bow types didn't take something away from another group. Solved the problem Kevin discusses above.

A lot of folks would be surprised, for better or worse, how few comments to an agency can sometimes result in a regulation change. A letter is always better than an e-mail by the way.  

It blows my mind that a county or two in West Virginia are archery-only over the entire county!  Pretty cool but I don't know how they suffer the slings and arrows to keep it.

Well, let me as an Oregonian give you the "facts" of the matter.

Oregon does not have a special trad season.  We do have a special...read exclusive area that is trad only for deer.  No elk in that area.

The unit is hard to get to, in the south east part of the state.  You really have to want to be there.  Darn difficult for a week-end hunt.  And you should have a very capable rig with four wheel drive and tires meant for dealing with lava rock.  You are pretty much on your own if things should go "wrong".

We have another unit (30+- day season) where trad hunters can hunt the full length of the season and modern hunters may only hunt the last two weeks.

It's difficult though not impossible to draw two deer tags.  Unlike states that have "too" many deer our herds are really suffering.  Mule deer populations are, at best, so-so.  Blacktail deer are fighting slip hair disease and crappy habitat.  When we use to be a logging state we had plenty of new growth for them.  Now we hardly log at all, except for private dirt.

Directly from a high ranking ODFW official, "modern bowhunters, with regularity, take animals in excess of 100 yards".

Ultimately the ODFW is faced with reducing bow hunting opportunities in one form or another.  A draw system, reducing length, limiting tags, etc.

An interesting part of this matrix is most modern bowhunters don't seem to realize as their success increase there will soon be more restrictions.  Its as if there is no relationship between harvest rates and bag limits.

Bob

QuoteOriginally posted by bob@helleknife.com:

An interesting part of this matrix is most modern bowhunters don't seem to realize as their success increase there will soon be more restrictions.  Its as if there is no relationship between harvest rates and bag limits.

Bob

Yep, that's the issue here

Thanks for weighing in Bob.

I love the idea but there are a lot of different variables depending on what part of the country you live.  In the Midwest the opportunity is probably past.  The commercial interests have taken hold.  It is big business and we as traditional bowhunters can't compete with it.  The same thing has happened to muzzleloader seasons.  These interests are convincing people that all of the junk they are selling is needed.  We need to work on promoting traditional bowhunting in a positive manner and maybe grow our own.    

QuoteOriginally posted by Bowwild:


To do otherwise would mean (in my mind)  I'd be agreeing with those who say my son and my grandson's should stay home while I go afield with my recurve."

Roy I am going to pick on you for this one. If there was a traditional season why wouldn't your son and grandson be able to participate?  All they would need is a license and a bow and arrow.

What typically determines the level of success re harvest rates for deer are 1) habitat quality, 2.) public access, 3.) season set-up, 4.) weather (in some states more than others), and 5.) level of field presence of the managing entity (including public education, research and enforcement efforts).  The type of archery equipment used rates pretty low on the totem pole, or if it does rate high in any given state there's likely something very wrong with one or more of the other factors.  Whether talking about season length, dedicated areas, equipment definitions or technology, when it comes to archery none of these items come close to the five main items noted above.  Those would be the areas I'd first look to for answers re a struggling deer herd...or a perceived overharvest situation.  

This doesn't mean that a closer look at some of the archery-related issues already mentioned shouldn't be undertaken/examined as part of the research/field presence effort, but don't kid yourself into believing that today's game managers assign any more than a passing level of importance towards archery as a 'harvest tool'.  The objective in that area (special interest seasons) is primarily to pacify the divergent interests that want their own piece if the pie (bowhunting orgs, muzzleloader clubs, crossbow proponents, and yes even anti-hunting groups).  

Secondly, based on the collective actions and image of today's 'traditional archers' (many of whom regularly employ high-level technology, materials and techniques in their pursuit of a traditional ideal that some of them won't even admit exists), the chance of state game managers giving a listen to the traditional argument is slim to none.  That's not because it wouldn't be nice if they did, it's because realistically the 'simple' aspects of this kind of archery have all but disappeared in favor of ILF rigs, carbon arrows, 40 yard hunting shots and routine bragging of how 'effective' our 'traditional' gear can be.  One cannot have his cake and eat it too...either traditional is hard, or it isn't.  The trouble is as a group we can't agree on which direction we want it to go with it.

When it comes to resolving a problem it's first necessary to be realistic and determine what the causal factors actually are...and not place too much emphasis on any one potential solution along the way.

Be careful what you wish for.  Sometimes  we are our own worst enemy.

bobhelle knife,
I would be highly suspect of the "100 yard kill regularity comment" by the OR high official.  I can an archery "expert" making such a claim to a high official and the high official believing it. I don't.  I don't even think the crossbow boys can do it with regularity because of range measuring, even with a range finder.  

Nathan, they don't hunt with recurves or longbows, so I'd be going without them unless they were willing/able to use recurves.  But, you are certainly correct and I'm not if you are suggesting (?) that they could participate, they'd just have to adopt the legal equipment.

Regarding another post. I hunt with recurves and aluminum, carbon or aluminum/carbon arrows. Except for the hybrid arrow, all of this stuff was available in the 1960's when I started with recurves.

There definitely is recognition among eastern wildlife managers of archery being an effective management tool, especially in areas where firearms aren't allowed or prudent.  

However, for my 30 years in the business the "recreation days" represented by archers (100,000 bowhunters hunting an average of 23 days each in KY for example = 2.3 million recreation days).  On Contrast 170,000 firearms deer hunters hunting 3 days is 510,000 recreation days.  

Sure harvest is the more important outcome but rec days are important because this also equates to support for the agency.  In KY when I was working, the local university did an annual survey of citizen attitudes towards the wildlife agency. We were always in the 90-95% approval range.

When I worked west of the Mississippi(Kansas) the approval rating was much, much lower. I thought it was very unfair because the staff weren't any less professional.  Western folks have a different understanding about habitat management than in the east.  Unfair is probably the wrong word, the agency needed to do a better job of informing the public in Kansas.  

Finally, I've worked with agencies in almost every state in one way or the other.  They are not all the same. I am the least impressed with those who know the least about what makes the hunter and hunting tick. I believe a few have already written the hunter off as important in the future of wildlife conservation.   As I've read every post in this thread I've noted where the poster hails from.

QuoteOriginally posted by Red Beastmaster:
Tedd,

If PA did have a traditional only season every current compounder or x-gun user would run out the week before to buy a cheap recurve so they could join in. A trad only season will never happen and I would not support it. Unfortunately, the traditional mindset is foreign to the masses.

Change PA to any other state and the same would be true...

QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
I think the entire month of October in Iowa should traditional archery only, with no overlapping youth or muzzleloader seasons.

X's2!! It would never happen but I would second that in a second my friend!

My only bow hunting partner shoots a wheel bow, so that would be sad for me.

 There are not enough bow hunters in my neck of the woods to make one bit of difference,  other places I can see how it would be an issue.

Bowwild,

He spends plenty of time in the field checking tags, licenses and in general talking with hunters of all classes. His information is from the "horses mouth".  And from his co-workers.

Antidotal evidence is always suspect, as it should be.  But there does come a time, when given enough of the same answers it does become more factual.

What's in it for him to misrepresent the "truth"?

I have never hunted "back east" where I understand 20ish yard shots are more the norm.  That is not so true here.

You tube has in the past, had plenty of very long distance kills.  Take a look.

My personal experience has been, when talking with modern archers, is most of them are not afraid of 70 yard plus shots.  With range finders, some arrow speeds at 350 +-, 100 yard shots are very doable.  Unfortunately.

Perhaps this long distance shooting is more a western based fact than in other parts of the continent.

Bob

This isn't a new topic of course. Trad folks have longed for their own seasons for decades. I think it will take a near apocalyptic-type event to get any state to take away days from the general archery season and give them to a trad-only season. The states which are in the most trouble with game populations would potentially have the best...but still long...shot at it.

Count me amongst those who believe we'd see a large percentage of avid modern hunters invest in enough trad gear so they could keep hunting; especially if it is a prime period to be afield.

Bob, in some ways I thing the trad guys are cutting their own throats with the exclusive trad area we have. I believe the problem is that since it is an unlimited permit hunt, and folks can hunt with trad gear for a week there, and then go somewhere else and hunt with wheels. If the state would make the Trout Creeks an only opportunity hunt, I think it would really cut down on the number of hunters out there, and weed out the "sometime" trad hunters. I always hate to ask for more restriction, but in this case it might be a boon to the die hard trad hunter.

Bob,
I don't suggest the high official misrepresents the truth. Instead I offer that too often people will hear a few comments and then pass them on as an important trend.  Sometimes the receiver of the information influences, through no fault or encouragement of their own,  the transmission. (I.e. Is told something the teller thinks they want to hear or already know.)

To answer your question, nothing is in it for him (the high official).  In fact, quite the opposite. The livelihood of many FW employees depends upon citizen support of hunting.  

But, someone who wants to disparage modern archers will pass on such behavior as the "norm". Heard it and seen it for many years.  I've heard FW Commission members comment on the ethics of bowhunters based upon the actions of a few bad apples.  I wouldn't want such information as 100-yard shot regularity passed on any more than sharing stories of guys who never recover their animals, as the "norm" for bowhunters.  It is no more normal for the average bowhunter than it is for the average rifle-toter.

Newhouse,
I absolutely agree with you and am surprised that the ODFW hasn't made it an only opportunity deer. Or, perhaps combine that with a late season opportunity.

Ours paths should have crossed some where along the line.  That is a great buck you've taken.  Given all the snow I am very concerned about winter die off.  Remember 92-93?

Bowwild...I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the frequency of 100 yarders.  No worries here and I am sure on your side as well.

I think most states have "designated" hunts for every weapon imaginable.  They just can't create a new, different season...no room to put them on the calendar.  So to do any thing different mostly creates a win-lose situation.  And that never works very well.

Bob

I tried to say it in my earlier post, but it may have come out poorly.  I do that at times.  I don't think, in this day and age, that we can have a meaningful trad only hunt.  Sure, we can have a week or so tucked somewhere.  But so what ?

We will be sharing the woods.  My concern... what I want.... is that they keep track of who does what.  Computerized tallies and check ins can make this easy.  

I think there is very little doubt that  compounders are very much more proficient at killing animals than trad folks, for what ever reason.  Crossbow hunters even more so.  I can't even imagine that this bowgun whatever it is is gonna fare less.  

In my state, according to my math ( I have NEVER seen the DNR do this math for the public, although I am certain they are very aware) the crossbow folks, in the last year tallied, had a better success rate than the gun folks.

Keep the tallies separate.  When (not if) the day comes that the seasons need to be shortened because the herd is being over plucked, I would like the data to show that trad folks are not the cause, and maybe they will let us keep the seasons we have.
CHuckC

I remember hearing about the die off in '92-'93 but I was still living in Alaska at the time so I didn't experience it personally. Most of my Oregon hunting has been on the coast. The buck in my avatar is a Trout Creek buck from my first try at mulies. I must say that I miss hunting moose, caribou, and sheep, but the blacktail deer and elk hunting keeps me fairly happy!

QuoteOriginally posted by newhouse114:
Bob, in some ways I thing the trad guys are cutting their own throats with the exclusive trad area we have. I believe the problem is that since it is an unlimited permit hunt, and folks can hunt with trad gear for a week there, and then go somewhere else and hunt with wheels. If the state would make the Trout Creeks an only opportunity hunt, I think it would really cut down on the number of hunters out there, and weed out the "sometime" trad hunters. I always hate to ask for more restriction, but in this case it might be a boon to the die hard trad hunter.

Oh darn, that's not even a trad only hunt, I bet a lot of guys sign up just to hunt with her wheelbarrow and never actually take a vantage of the tradbow week?

Michael, the Trout Creek Mts are a trad only geographical area. You have to draw (guaranteed) for the permit, but you can participate in any other archery hunt that is general season in the state. If you hunt the Trouts, you hunt trad! Except for the 50 rifle tags they give out for October.

It seems to me that much of the management discussion here almost assumes that all hunters have access to the same game/land.

I don't believe that you can meaningfully measure the success rate of a weapon or method without first taking into account where that hunting takes place.

Let me explain. I'm in Indiana. We have a lot of deer. However, only a very few of us have access to the land where most of those deer will be found during hunting season.

Regardless of weapon restrictions, it's going to be the same guys killing the deer. It's the guys who have a stand in the little patch of woods where the deer live.

I have to dodge around deer driving too and from work (I saw more than 30 deer on my drive home from work yesterday) but I rarely see deer at all from my stand.

It doesn't matter what weapon I have in my hand. Likewise, there are properties I know very well because I have permission to squirrel hunt BEFORE deer season opens. I promise you, I could regularly kill deer there with any weapon.

The bottom line is that, in my state, I don't think the weapon of choice is a very significant variable.

I have to add to that. Talking my state of Indiana...When they included the x-bow in regular archery season they cited the "need" to get more hunters out during archery season.

It may be that some game rich (probably private) land is "under hunted" during archery season but that's not what you will see if you visit our local WMA on the weekend. What you're going to see is lots of tree stands and hunters. The addition of x-bows only put more hunter traffic on land that's already over hunted...or at least over pressured.

I've spent a lot of time on that property at all times of the year. I used to hunt it a little when I was self employed and could hunt during the week.

I don't even bother with it now that I punch a clock again and have to work Monday through Friday.

I haven't kept up on the numbers (I'm not even sure where to find them) but I don't think the inclusion of x-bows had any significant effect on success rates on those types of properties...the kind I have access to.

During the season they post harvest numbers on the office wall and the success rate has to come to just about nothing. You could let folks use grenades and it isn't going to make much difference.

Someone probably mentioned it already.  State agencies could have a lot more over the counter tags if  bow technology was restricted.
Tedd

I would think support is needed from all types of bow shooters for the existing bow seasons.

Some remember when there were almost silly hunting laws (early sixties and before) like two week only deer seasons and even when hunters had to wear red outer wear in Oklahoma where I learned to shoot, until there was enough pressure from bow hunters to educate the law makers.  We need everybody shooting something. However, I would sure like to see more trad shooters since that's my interest.  I think that's happening too.

I guess a concern I have is that the state is just in the business of selling licenses. Here anyway, it just seems like they want to sell all they can.

Maybe things are different in other parts of the country but where I am you're usually hunting ghosts or dreams unless you have a decent piece of private land to hunt.

I work with a bunch of "hunters". We even have an annual "big buck" pool. I am the only one of the bunch who legally killed and checked in a buck this year.

Oh, other guys killed bucks but they do it whenever they want using whatever they want. One kid I worked with shot at least 4 deer this year...all with a .22 rifle which isn't legal anytime. A couple were never recovered and at least one was just left to rot. He wasn't sure he hit the first one and shot another.

He didn't want to clean and drag two deer so one was just left. They only took the hind quarters off the other.

The state isn't measuring anything that's relevant to most of us.

The bottom line is that they aren't enforcing the laws and they're making the laws based on garbage information and invalid assumptions. Is anything about that new?

The state wants to make money. Politicians want to get re-elected. Bureaucrats want to build little empires.

Many farmers don't want any deer. Car insurance companies don't want any deer. Equipment manufacturers want more sales to more hunters and the state gets away with selling licenses to people who aren't going to see any game.

That's the racket we're dealing with. Game management barely enters into it.

Mgf is basically correct.  At least in areas where quality habitat exists, the level of hunter access (or lack of access) will largely steer the harvest rate whether the hunters carry sniper rifles, compounds or self bows.  Discounting illegal or unethical harvests for the moment (a separate discussion), shot opportunities and thus general potential for harvest success increases with the number of hunter/prey interactions and decreases with the lack of such interaction.  Again, successful game management and 'success rate' is much more about the quality of local politics in achieving sound across-the-board planning objectives than it is about weapons used by the littany of competing constituencies.  

If politicians would resist making decisions based on personal bias and let their hired professionals (those who actually know what they are doing...biologists, technical staff, wardens, and their administrative support teams) do their job I think you'd be surprised how many perceived harvest problems/conflicts would disappear... regardless of the special weapon/special season arrangement.  

In a nutshell, game populations and hunter constituencies would both be better served if politicians were made to provide better financial resources to their management professionals and more authority to let them do their job.  I'm sure the white collars would be more than happy to take credit for the eventual improvements.  

Wise political leadership that has has faith in it's management staff, or passive acceptance of carpetbaggers selfishly running a viable/valuable public resource into the ground in the name of 'representing their constituency'.  Gee, a tough choice.

Use your voting power and your phone. Tell your legislators to listen to their knowledgable professionals.  Time spent working towards that end would be time much better spent than chasing special trad (or other) season advantages with little to no chance of success and minimal cohesion within the constituency base itself.

with compounds the way they are now, and crossbows .... I think G&F should look closely at splitting compounds and crossbows into a separate, shorter season than recurve / longbows

I shoot a compound now - I can rarely practice and yet have great accuracy, my bow is 86% letoff and a 402 gr arrow with a 62.5 # draw is going 294 fps

crazy these new bows