Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Pine on December 29, 2016, 03:10:00 AM
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I've been playing around with EFOC arrows and I have came up with a heavy setup .
I've gone up 10# in spine weight and I have 350gr. up front .
The total weight of the arrow is 699gr. and my longbow is only 43#@28 .
Is this to heavy ?
I'm concerned that the extra weight will counteract the efficiency .
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Lethality........Enhanced
Trajectory.....Hunt within your likely reduced comfort zone
>>>Have easily built 400 gn up front arrow designs that only had a total arrow weight of 611 gns.
>>>Was able to shoot respectable 3D scores utilizing only the bare shaft.
>>> achieved full body length penetration on a doe...complete pass thru on a turkey and hog...all with a 3 blade BH
>>>Fabulous arrow flight and stability
>>>Negative- exceedingly hi target wear
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If the trajectory is still acceptable to you, its not hurting a thing. Graps Ive shot 860gr arrows from a 45lb bow....in fact, killed deer with 825gr this season at 15 yards. Ive went as high as 450gr heads with 45lb bows. In momentum formulas, the gain in momentum/penetration increases at a much greater rate, then the loss of velocity. There would be a diminished returns at some point, but you wouldnt be able to stand the trajectory. If the arrow is still shooting where you are looking at 20 yards and under,,,,you have not reached that point.
Here is a vid of me shooting 860gr arrows at 15 yards with 45lb bow. Grouped decent for me, and I only noticed a trajectory loss at more then 20 yards.
https://youtu.be/ua1ixMcDcaU
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Agree with shadowhnter and friend, heavy can be advantageous with a quieter bow and stable arrow.
Also playing with efoc and have a 685gr set up, 30.9% foc, from 52#, shoot it well to 25yds but she really drops past that. For the shots we get in the thick woods it will work well.
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I was shooting 940 gr arrows from a 42#@28 recurve but with my longer draw I was getting closer to 50+ lbs
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I convinced myself that it was not too much by shooting heavy and light arrows together and watching them impact in the same area. Then with a friend shooting with me I kept reaching him arrows to shoot with some weighted and others lighter, shot the same for him and he didn't know what I was doing. Now this was acceptable hunting ranges for me, long shots may have been different.
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Lethality enhanced, no doubt. But for what kind of game? Are we having problems with penetration shooting at whitetails?
I doubt we have penetration problems on deer. It really depends on your arrow speed a little bit, too. Depending on where you hunt, deer can be super skittish, and their reaction can be super fast. So I would opt for reasonably heavy with good speed, instead of very slow and super heavy.
With this bow I would go to about 550 grain arrow weight and that is it.
I agree with friend that an arrow can be built which is lighter in weight with 350 up front which will be plenty.
Assuming a 29" arrow bop, an Easton light speed 400 with 100 grain brass insert and 225 grain point should be right on the money.557 grains with field points. You can shoot a 125 grain steel adapter with 125 grain head no problem, as the broadhead is not such a concentrated mass as a field point. You may also shoot slightly on the weaker site to accommodate for a shorter draw length when it gets cold and you are bundled up.
Deer react and don't care about trajectories.
If you think about hog hunting you will need to move up in draw weight and arrow weight in order to get reliable shield penetration capability as plenty of threads on here show. And I talk about ability to shoot at big hogs and not small eating size porkers.
Elk: I consider your draw weight questionable. Elk are surprisingly fast movers as well and not every shot is within 15 yards and it is easier to misjudge distance on the bigger animals easily. The heaviest arrow with a good trajectory to 30 yards is important.
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One thing nobody ever wants to talk about, is how selfbow shooters manage to pile deer as well as other game up. I dont think speed is a huge issue with those fellas, yet they stack up the game regardless. A lot of Those bows are moving at a speed, similar to a modern bow with heavy arrows. Way too many are killed every season to discount their lack of blazing speed. Something to think about....
Another thing is, no trad bow is faster then a deers reflexs. You either allow for the jump, or you shoot to kill at non jumping deer. Its the only 2 options. 20 fps Arrow speed wont make the difference.
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If your DL is 28", thats over 16gpp! That is HEAVY!!!! I would be concerned about how slow it was, and also about trajectory and being able to aim it correctly. If I get over about 12gpp, it seems like the arrows drop like a rock fast, and I have a very hard time aiming past 20yds.
Bisch
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I'm not sure the speed matters too much, these trad bows are not fast to begin with. Most of the moment is through mass rather than velocity.
think of dropping a wooden rod off a roof on something and then think about dropping a rebar post of the same size...
I don't think I would like that much arc in my set up personally, but it never hurts to give it a try.
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If you want a lighter high foc arrow, i strongly recommend trying Victory RIP XV shafts. I built a 32% foc arrow weighing 560 grains. I used 340 shafts,full length which is 31 inches, used their stainless shok insert instead of the alloy ones and 300 grain tips.
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Very few people use selfbows in the 40# range.
Selfbows move arrows at comparable speed with glass bows given they are built right. Especially for longbows. They are also very quiet. A lot of selfbow shooters will also limit their shot distance further down in comparison to glass bow shooters.
Selfbow shooters do also not care for EFOC arrows, since wooden shafts do not really lend themselves for EFOC. Most of those will shoot wooden arrows built from regular available shaft materials (POC and Douglas Fir).
No one knows how a deer will react to the sound of the string in a given situation with certainty.
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If the accuracy and the trajectory are acceptable, it should be just fine. As stated, your effective range may be decreased.
Personally, I have no real interest in, and see no need for, EFOC. I hunt whitetails almost exclusively, so a more "standard" weight arrow is just fine. That being said, I know some peoplw who prefer very heavy arrows and take a lot of game.
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Well Howard used arrow about that weight, with 85-90# bows, worked for him. :biglaugh: Personally, I am not in the EFOC camp, it may be important for hogs with a heavy shield, but there is a downside. The drop at 20 yds., would be greater, loss of speed and the difficulty in switching between different weight arrows. I would not want to limit myself to shooting just heavy arrows to achieve EFOC. A 43# bow will kill most game in the lower 48 with the right arrow and sharp broadhead. IMO a smaller diameter shaft with medium FOC is more than adequate.
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30℅ efoc or greater males a huge difference in how well an arrow stabilizes and flies... Feathers are option at that point even with broadheads (don't believe me check out a couple videos I did with a bare shaft and huge 2 blade head).
The only thing that might bother you depending on your shot distances is the extra weight. I like 700 grains at 57 pounds. When I shoot 800 out of 57 I notice big drops at 25 yards and farther. So I prefer the 700 at 57#. The 700@57 gives me the right combo of weight and arrow flight that I'm looking for. I have a buddy that shoots 900 out of a 61# bow and he loves it. He also won't hunt farther than 20 yards. I like to be able to hunt out to 25 yards and the extra weight makes a difference in those last 5 yards and it's pretty noticeable. Especially if you want to practice out to 30-35 witch I like to do. Would never hunt that far but like to practice it.
You are gonna love heavy arrows and high efoc. But if it gets to be too much in your current set up don't loose faith in it maybe just lighten it up a bit for your set up.
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I believe there is no such thing as too heavy as long as you can deal with the trajectory. With that said, if you were shooting 1000grains of deer I might start to think you are a little nuts.
700 grains isn't that crazy. I have shot 600gr from a 36# bow and it was slow but quiet and buried arrows in the target.
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I can't give any recommendations but in my experience once your arrow weight reaches 550 grains the arrows start to hit like a mac truck.
Personally I'd never shoot a 700 grain out of my 44# bow.
The trajectory really starts to rainbow around 550 grains for me and becomes less forgiving if I don't reach my full draw.
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Why don't you see what the numbers are for Momentum out of your bow with a 470 grain arrow, then a 570 grain and then your 670 grainer.? Then you will have your answer as to the best performing arrow for penetration. If you want, go to 770 grains...somewhere you will find out its too much as penetration performance will fall like a rock, just like your arrows.
Also, getting great arrow flight isn't that big a deal....people been doing that forever with non-(choose your acronym)foc arrows....just talk to target shooters that shoot less foc than us hunters. (I don't usually like to bring in target matter to compare to use hunters,...equipment, style, aiming etc, but this is a comment souly on arrow flight, and good arrow flight knows not the shooter.)
Just curious...what are you intending to hunt with these arrows you are asking about?
:campfire:
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VAP and X Impact 300 gr point plus 50+- gr. insert. 510 gr. total out of 43@26"... Heavy point weight work best for me.
Bob
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Terry , I'm going to be hunting black bear .
Quite honestly , I'm playing around with the heavier arrow just out of curiosity .
The past two years I've had to back down from my 60# bow because of problems with my hands , so hopefully I can take a bear with my 43# longbow .
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Bears are pretty soft, and most folks hunt them at close range. You should have no problem if you are well tuned, and can put the arrow in the right place. With that low of draw weight, I would stay at least at 500gr or above. If you can handle the trajectory of your heavy arrow (and assuming it is well tuned), I think you are good to go!
Bisch
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Yep...you sure can...even with a lowly 500 grain arrow :biglaugh:
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Ha...Bisch got in before me. :goldtooth:
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Well my woods are 510gr and they behave very well .
I'll probably stick with them , that's the way I've done it for over 40 years .
Just been thinking , there might just be something to them heavy setups .
But I also believe that " if it ain't broke , don't fix it "
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I have some heavy tapered alaskan carbons, boy those arrows really mess with that aimer thing in my head on anything over 25 yards.
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Well I got myself a new layer target and shot at 15 yards .
The heavy arrows grouped just as good as the ones that I've been using .
The difference was , the heavier arrows hit 7" lower , but 1" deeper .
I think I'm going to stick with what I've been doing . The difference in penitration doesn't seem worth the loss in trajectory .
My 510gr penitrate 11" , and the 699gr was 12" .
But I'm glad that I gave it a try .