If in trad archery someone says that they "paced out" a particular distance to a target or kill, and that it was "35 yards" (for example), what exactly does that mean to most trad archers?
The reason that I ask is that a pace is generally not a full yard (36") but rather is usually around 30" for most people, when walking at a brisk walk. Only an extremely tall individual would have a heel-to-heel (or toe-to-toe) stride of 36".
The reason that I'm curious is that 35 paces is only about 29 yards. Not a huge difference, but a significant one nonetheless.
So to "pace out" 35 yards, someone would have to actually walk 42 standard paces. I wonder if anyone actually ever does the math this way. Or do most just "fudge" the distance estimation by using a standard pace as equal to one yard?
Another more accurate way would be to take "giant step" strides. I'm only 5'7"; I can take a 36" pace, but ONLY when I use a maximum possible, "giant step" stride, not a normal walking one. So when I pace out a distance, I use these "giant steps". And when I compare my "giant step" paced distance with that achieved with a tape measure, it compares almost exactly.
I've seen videos where someone says "this is so-and-so yards" to the target, and I look and say "looks a bit shorter than that to me". :eek:
Just curious,
Frank
Frank,
I too use the "larger than normal" step method.
It comes out pretty accurately for me.
You do what works. I am a little taller and just take a slightly exaggerated step. I put a tape on the ground and practiced a time or two. I laid out my practice range with a tape. Now I pace it ever time I retrieve arrows. It works well enough that I can pace any distance from 10 to 40 yards and get a first arrow hit. I really like range finders for hunting though. Ranging a few spots near my max. range and wait for the game to come inside one. Ken
Rather than adjusting my gate, I simply counted steps when walking known distances(target range).
My normal/casual gate is 11 paces for 10yds.
I take longer steps also, but it still comes out that I am off a little bit. But, hey, a shot at 35 yards is so much more interesting than one at 29. Besides, everyone knows that essentially all bow shots are exaggerated. Otherwise we wouldn't be telling hunting stories.
A good idea might be to use your own steps for range estimation...If you are new to this traditional game, all you might need to know is:
Is that game/target within my comfort zone... Shooting instinctive or a gap method requires a different approach with shot distance.
You have come to the right place to pick minds... Hope the information you learn here can be put into proper practice...
Best Of Luck!
Well, for Me if i'm wanting to measure a shot distance I extend my normal pace to my counting pace. And yes I've measured it before and I can get a full 36" stride pretty easily.
I have a backyard range set up that at one time had 36 targets and I measured out all of them with a 100' tape measure, and while doing so checked to see how accurate my pacing could be, I was on the mark by +/- a foot or less.
It really doesn't matter unless you are shooting at a marked distance shoot. If you are guessing distance then it's what your eye sees and your mind says.
IF it does matter to you, digital rangefinders are pretty cheap.
Mike
Myself , 25 paces is 20 yards .
My self bow is so fast, it just doesn't matter...
I tried stepping off the shot one time, but the darn buck took off running before I even got close...
For me it's slow full steps. They are close enough to a yard for me.
Shooting unmarked distances the actual yardage would never matter.
Shooting marked distances and your pace count will still be very close to the posted yardage.
I don't think most people who pace off yards fudge. I think they know what their average step is and calculate the distance based on the number of steps they took. Or else they know how to take yard long steps and take extra long steps when pacing off a distance. Maybe. OTOH, maybe those are the same folks who send in photos of arrows all bunched together in the target. THOSE are the people I wonder about!
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
It really doesn't matter unless you are shooting at a marked distance shoot. If you are guessing distance then it's what your eye sees and your mind says.
IF it does matter to you, digital rangefinders are pretty cheap.
Mike
X 2
I take a rangefinder elk hunting because Distances are longer, but find myself doing it more and more to measure distances to landmarks when stand hunting rather than spreading my scent around. Most spot and stalk hunts for hogs I don't spend the time, because I generally know how close I need to be.
There is one in my pocket as we speak. Traditional enough for me.
In Canada you really need long legs and to take big steps because we have to pace in Meters, LOL!
(actually, after about 50 years, I'm still an inch, foot and yard man, LOL!)
Sometimes for poops and giggles during a 3-D shoot a couple of us will pace the target from the target back to the line. I'm usually right in with everyone else using the "big" step method.
I never worry about it. A long time ago I kinda figured out for me how to make long paces that were real close to a yard long, and when I'm trying to verify a distance that is what I use. It is not exact, but definitely close enough.
Bisch
My pace is pretty close to 36 inches, every time I've paced stuff out and compared to rangefinders or
Measurements I've been spot on.
We use to play a game ' Captain May i', miserable game where kids can show biased favoritism, the captain may i giant step is over a yard, a comfortable long step is one yard. In the woods things are are quite often further than I thought, when pacing with my most accurate captain may I stride. In my back yard, things seem longer when they are actually shorter. Perspectives, play games with our estimations. 'Captain May I' shoot at that deer that seems to be 30 yards away? "No, you must take 4 giant steps backwards." I hated that game.
Working construction all my life and setting up batter boards I've got pretty close. However I have a 36" inseam and tend to take a longer than most stride.
Same here. Working construction all my life and practiced pacing things off and then measuring. I win quite a few bets from people who don't believe it can be done. Typically I can be within a pace of measured distance out to about 75 yards or so.
I'm pretty talll, 6'2", and I've thought over the same question. So I checked my step distance it with the range finder... im basically dead on for a yard with a normal walking stride.
To me, its just a close estimate to convey to other people the distance, to give a better idea of the situation. All I worry about, is knowing my target is in range, from there I could care less about how exact I know the yardage to be. Its the last thing on my mind when I shoot.
QuoteOriginally posted by Shadowhnter:
To me, its just a close estimate to convey to other people the distance, to give a better idea of the situation. All I worry about, is knowing my target is in range, from there I could care less about how exact I know the yardage to be. Its the last thing on my mind when I shoot.
Exactly how I feel about it . :thumbsup:
Doesn't really matter if folks are accurate pacers because the yardage is usually inflated anyway when describing that excellent shot the pacer made on the target, critter, etc. On top of that, the yardage increases each time the story is told. That's how five steps gets turned into a 35 yard shot, up hill, against the wind, a severe crosswind at that, between two limbs, less than a split second for the shot, etc. :goldtooth:
Yards are like cubits in the Bible. Usually 18 inches, but depended upon the length of the man's forearm. I think my long-step pace is close to a yard, but it really doesn't matter that much to me.
Building fence and other stuff like that you learn to figure out how many of your own paces works out to a yard or how to step to get pretty close, do it enough and you will figure it out.
my heel to toe is no where close to a yard but a large step gets me pretty close.
In the end I guess it matters more if you can get an arrow to a specific distance rather than if you can count it off.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
Doesn't really matter if folks are accurate pacers because the yardage is usually inflated anyway when describing that excellent shot the pacer made on the target, critter, etc. On top of that, the yardage increases each time the story is told. That's how five steps gets turned into a 35 yard shot, up hill, against the wind, a severe crosswind at that, between two limbs, less than a split second for the shot, etc. :goldtooth:
haha! You must have been listening to my friend Beau telling hunting stories.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
Doesn't really matter if folks are accurate pacers because the yardage is usually inflated anyway when describing that excellent shot the pacer made on the target, critter, etc. On top of that, the yardage increases each time the story is told. That's how five steps gets turned into a 35 yard shot, up hill, against the wind, a severe crosswind at that, between two limbs, less than a split second for the shot, etc. :goldtooth:
You nailed it, Orion.....that's what I was thinking! :biglaugh:
Actually, it seems as though most here tend to be pretty accurate with their distance measurements. Not that it matters much for aiming (especially for instinctive shooting), but simply for the sake of speaking truthfully.
Best wishes,
Frank
I've done this long enough that I can exaggerate my normal stride to equal a yard. Pretty accurate as others have stated. Not super important in the big scheme of things for instinctive shooters within your practiced hunting distances. I would assume more significant if you gap shoot, string walk, crawl, or use some sort of point of reference sighting mechanism. For me it's still fun to estimate ranges in all situations and see how close I am.... My wife wonders about the obsession at the zoo with yardage & shot angles..... :saywhat:
QuoteOriginally posted by KAZ:
I've done this long enough that I can exaggerate my normal stride to equal a yard. Pretty accurate as others have stated. Not super important in the big scheme of things for instinctive shooters within your practiced hunting distances. I would assume more significant if you gap shoot, string walk, crawl, or use some sort of point of reference sighting mechanism. For me it's still fun to estimate ranges in all situations and see how close I am.... My wife wonders about the obsession at the zoo with yardage & shot angles..... :saywhat:
:biglaugh:
That's funny. Sometimes I do the same when walking in public: "hhmmm, I wonder how far away that street sign is?". So I do my "giant steps" and try to see how close I was with my visual estimate.
I know my pace count from my 10 years in the Marine Corps, so I know mine is accurate. Matter of fact me and my brother had a bet one time on it. He pulled out his range finder (compound hunter), picked a tree, he shot it as I walked it off. He ended up buying lunch, I was spot on
are you guys measuring a step or a pace? a pace is generally heel of right foot to heel of right foot. (or toe to toe, etc) but the same foot.
step is opposite foot. just making sure we're talking about the same thing
I should add that my unimpeded pace is about 4 feet. and I'm 5'7"
Without a tape measure everybody guesstimates.
Deno
QuoteOriginally posted by hickstick:
are you guys measuring a step or a pace? a pace is generally heel of right foot to heel of right foot. (or toe to toe, etc) but the same foot.
step is opposite foot. just making sure we're talking about the same thing
I should add that my unimpeded pace is about 4 feet. and I'm 5'7"
Apparently there may be two definitions to the length of a standard pace. In the U.S. at least, pace and step appear to be used interchangeably. Here is the definition from that fount of all wisdom, Wikipedia:
"A pace is a unit of length consisting either of one normal walking step (~0.75 m), or of a double step, returning to the same foot (~1.5 m). Like other traditional measurements, paces started as informal units but have since been standardized, often with the specific length set according to a typical brisk or military marching stride.
In the US, it is an uncommon customary unit of length denoting a brisk single step and equal to 2½ feet or 30 inches (76.2 cm).[1][2]"
This thread is reminding of a few years ago , my wife and I were looking at some modular homes .
There was this two story model that had the full upstairs open .
I went to one corner and started pacing to the opposite corner .
I wasn't half way across and my wife said " NO ! "
I said " no , what ? "
How did she know I was thinking of an indoor archery range ? :rolleyes:
Good one Graps.
Deno
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Home > Army Board Study Guide Topics > Land Navigation Map Reading > How to Use Pace Count to
How to use pace count to measure ground distance
A pace is equal to one natural step, about 30 inches long.
One way to measure ground distance is the pace count. A pace is equal to one natural step, about 30 inches long. To accurately use the pace count method, you must know how many paces it takes you to walk 100 meters. To determine this, you must walk an accurately measured course and count the number of paces you take. A pace course can be as short as 100 meters or as long as 600 meters. The pace course, regardless of length, must be on similar terrain to that you will be walking over. It does no good to walk a course on flat terrain and then try to use that pace count on hilly terrain. To determine your pace count on a 600-meter course, count the paces it takes you to walk the 600 meters, then divide the total paces by 6. The answer will give you the average paces it takes you to walk 100 meters. It is important that each person who navigates while dismounted knows his pace count.
(1) There are many methods to keep track of the distance traveled when using the pace count. Some of these methods are: put a pebble in your pocket every time you have walked 100 meters according to your pace count; tie knots in a string; or put marks in a notebook. Do not try to remember the count; always use one of these methods or design your own method.
(2) Certain conditions affect your pace count in the field, and you must allow for them by making adjustments.
(a) Slopes. Your pace lengthens on a downslope and shortens on an upgrade. Keeping this in mind, if it normally takes you 120 paces to walk 100 meters, your pace count may increase to 130 or more when walking up a slope.
(b) Winds. A head wind shortens the pace and a tail wind increases it.
(c) Surfaces. Sand, gravel, mud, snow, and similar surface materials tend to shorten the pace.
(d) Elements. Falling snow, rain, or ice cause the pace to be reduced in length.
(e) Clothing. Excess clothing and boots with poor traction affect the pace length.
(f) Visibility. Poor visibility, such as in fog, rain, or darkness, will shorten your pace.
this is the way I learned:
pace calculation (http://backcountryattitude.com/pacing.html)
QuoteOriginally posted by Graps:
This thread is reminding of a few years ago , my wife and I were looking at some modular homes .
There was this two story model that had the full upstairs open .
I went to one corner and started pacing to the opposite corner .
I wasn't half way across and my wife said " NO ! "
I said " no , what ? "
How did she know I was thinking of an indoor archery range ? :rolleyes:
:clapper:
Good post Marc. Very interesting system. Unfortunately for me there's a right way, a wrong way, and the Army way pounded in my brain. I taught Land Nav for 10 years in the Army.
Up to the individual to use whatever method there comfortable with.
Deno
Yardage and pacing are just numbers. I practice by walking the range never shooting more then one arrow at any one place. This allows my eye and brain to learn the distance and I never think about the distance when hunting. If you feel you need to know the distance use your pace to train your self and not the yard stick. But when asked how far was the shot tell them 18 of my paces.
I dont get wrapped up if my long stride is exactly a yard (3 feet) or not...I go by normal paces when doing stuff...or try and break it down in what looks like 5 yard increments from football field. If I say I shot 15 paces...I expect any reasonable person to associate that with around 15 yards. I try to keep everything 12-15 yds with a couple 18+ yd shots if everything feels perfect. I am more worried about how I feel about the shot...my sight picture...and my focus than distance but even then...dont care if I am a foot or two off as I am not shooting far enough for it to be catastrophic. I can do that with a bad release all by myself. LOL
If I'm working on a project, I use a tape to determine the needed materials. If I'm shooting I let my eye/brain determine the distance. When I relay the story, I go with my gut feeling-"it was a 10 yard shot", it may have been 8 or 12-does it really matter??. If I make the shot, I get pats on the back. If I miss, everyone says "how could miss a shot at that distance?" If I catch myself trying to estimate range before the shot, I won't shoot-I invariably miss.
What about meters? Shouldn't they get some of the good stuff? There should be a couple inches shy of a yard measurement with its own name, my normal stride,
back in scouts, they taught us to pick a foot (left or right) and everytime that foot hit the ground, that was a pace. They then took us out where there was a known distance and we walked it off to see what distance one pace was. For me, it was 6' and to this day, it is really close for me. 10 paces is really close to 20 yrds for me. actually, with a rangefinder its about 9.5 paces.
I have pretty long legs. I just stretch out a little bit and I'm pretty accurate. I can pace off 50 yards and verify it with a range finder and if I'm not right on I'm no more than plus or minus 1/2 yard.
After reading this yesterday I picked a spot down a long hallway and called it at 14 yards. I then paced it off as 13 "yards", then measured it at 13.5 yards. When I pace something off I do my best for every step to average about a yard (I'm not 5' 7" so I can) and it comes out GFE (Good Freaking Enough).
I gave up on this many years ago. Nobody seems to know distances without a range finder. I have friends who shoot their deer with rifles every year at 400+ yds. and they hunt in a patch of trees that is 150 x 150 yds. square! My father-in-law never shot a deer with his bow under 40 yds. away and each time he showed me the shot it never was more than 25 yds. max. I guess it really doesn't matter as long as the guy who is talking is happy!
QuoteOriginally posted by longbowman:
I gave up on this many years ago. Nobody seems to know distances without a range finder. I have friends who shoot their deer with rifles every year at 400+ yds. and they hunt in a patch of trees that is 150 x 150 yds. square! My father-in-law never shot a deer with his bow under 40 yds. away and each time he showed me the shot it never was more than 25 yds. max. I guess it really doesn't matter as long as the guy who is talking is happy!
:biglaugh:
Honestly, it doesn't matter once you get past the beginner stage of trad.
The only distance you need to know is "too far for an accurate or ethical shot". I try not to practice from any given distance very much; instead, I establish my MAXIMUM, then move it forward a few yards to make up for terrain, "buck fever" (nerves, adrenaline) and the like and practice moving around and shooting at various positions and locations within that max. The shot you envision usually never comes, or if it does, it's completely different. Know your limitations and work within them.
QuoteOriginally posted by Graps:
This thread is reminding of a few years ago , my wife and I were looking at some modular homes .
There was this two story model that had the full upstairs open .
I went to one corner and started pacing to the opposite corner .
I wasn't half way across and my wife said " NO ! "
I said " no , what ? "
How did she know I was thinking of an indoor archery range ? :rolleyes:
I was thinking that as I was reading it also. :biglaugh:
So just call them paces and go on with life.
I shot a gopher once at 38 yards with my recurve. I know that's accurate because my 10-year-old daughter paced it off for me.
I've measured off my paces, and averaged them out, so I think I am pretty close in my estimates. And a pace taken with a full step, for me, is pretty dang close to a yard.
The longest shot that take on a deer is the distance that can comfortably throw a rubber ball. So, about a ball throw distance from here is how far I shot my last two deer. I think that distance is getting less every year.
Little early for a cabin fever thread. LOL
Actually, many of the more instinctive shooters I know tend to think of distance as close, medium, and far at the time the shot is made. Yardage is then usually estimated when describing the event.
I think you are more right than not Sam. I don't think in terms of yards when I shoot. I just look at the target and shoot. The actual yardage does not ever enter my mind. I might call it "so many" yards afterward, but I sure didn't think that before I shot.
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
The longest shot that take on a deer is the distance that can comfortably throw a rubber ball. So, about a ball throw distance from here is how far I shot my last two deer. I think that distance is getting less every year.
:thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by Archie:
I shot a gopher once at 38 yards with my recurve. I know that's accurate because my 10-year-old daughter paced it off for me.
:)
I take my bow and go end to end to the hit. Then I multply the "ends" by the strung length.
Killdeer
I shot a pheasant a couple of years ago that was 82 'captain may Is" away. I actually would have missed by about two feet or more if he would have stood still.