Does anyone know or has run into the two guys on YouTube that have become archery experts overnight? This has to do with their explanation of archers paradox and I've tried to explain that this phenomenon happens as a result of the fingers loosing the string and it happens with all recurve and longbows that are drawn and loosed with the archers fingers. What is archers paradox to you?
Regards,
Grouse
I'm not familiar with those fellas on you tube but I have seen slo-mo film of the paradox in action. I believe it happens even when there is a mechanical release. It always amazes me the arrows don't self destruct. Hope you are well Mr. Rick......... :wavey:
Thank you Mr. Ron,
These guys just make me scratch my head.
I'm doing much better than I was last summer. I missed not seeing and shooting with you and Ken.
Please have a "Merry Christmas" Ron and wish Ken and Charlie the same.
Regards,
Rick
Glad to hear you are feeling better Rick.
We need to get together and fling some arrows.
One dictionary definition of paradox is, " a statement (or observation) that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true. "
Keep in mind that this term was coined during the day of the self bow, which didn't have arrow shelves or if they did they were very shallow. Thus, an arrow placed on the string would be pointed way to the left (for a right handed shooter). One would think that the arrow would shoot to the left, yet when shot, it would hit the target.
That's the paradox, the archer's paradox. How can an arrow that points so far off of center strike a target straight in front of the bow. And yet it does. It's a paradox. Now, of course, through high speed photography, we know it does so because, if it is spined correctly, the arrow bends around the riser when it is shot.
Nowadays, a lot of folks mistakenly apply the word paradox to mean the bending or flexing of the arrow as it passes the bow riser. That's incorrect. The arrow does not paradox around the bow. It flexes or bends around the bow when shot. The fact that it flexes around the riser explains the archer's paradox, i.e., why the arrow, which appears to be lined up off target, actually hits the target.
On a bow cut past center in which the arrow can be made to bisect the string, as in most compounds shot with a trigger, there is no archer's paradox. Of course, the arrow still flexes horizontally and vertically when shot.
This kinda begs more discussion, especially from folks smarter than me. Your arrow, when on the string but not drawn, points in a different direction than it does when drawn full. You point the arrow, essentially in front of the bow, and it starts out that way, but it needs to gyrate to follow that path. That is where reasonable spine comes into play. Almost any arrow will launch. It takes a particular arrow to be able to do the paradox in a manner that works for the archer. I think this gyration is compounded by the release using fingers.
Orion,
Your are correct, but I'm not talking about a compound. The archers fingers are what induces paradox and the arrow is in paradox until the arrow clears the bow. After this point dynamic spine takes over and the arrow fishtales toward the target. Try and explain this to Greg at Archery 101 on FaceBook and his friend Jeff of "The Nocking Point".
Regards,
Rick [Grouse]
Archer's paradox is the apparent (initially) unexplainable discrepancy between where the arrow appears to be pointed and where it actually goes. It has nothing to do with the mechanics of the shot. Archer's paradox is a conclusion drawn from a static observation.
As one draws the arrow, I suppose one could say the arrow stays in paradox, because it will continue to point to the left of the riser as it is drawn, and common sense would still suggest that the arrow will strike left of the target as a result. Yet it doesn't because of the flexing of the arrow around the riser. That's the paradox. The arrow goes straight when we expect it not to. Why? Because the arrow flexes around the riser. It does not paradox around the riser.
The archer's fingers do not induce paradox. They contribute to the bending of the arrow. The archer's fingers at release kick the rear of the arrow a bit to the left (for a right hand shooter). That, plus the weight of the bow string pushing forward on the arrow nock and the slightly off center orientation of the arrow initially cause the arrow to begin flexing to clear the bow riser and reorient itself toward the target through the fishtailing action.
Here's a definition of Archer's paradox from Wikipedia that provides some historical context.
"The term archer's paradox refers to the phenomenon of an arrow traveling in the direction it is pointed at full draw, when it seems that the arrow would have to pass through the starting position it was in before being drawn, where it was pointed to the side of the target. The bending of the arrow when released is the explanation for why the paradox occurs and should not be confused with the paradox itself. Flexing of the arrow when shot from a modern 'centre shot' bow is still present and is caused by a variety of factors, mainly the way the string is deflected from the fingers as the arrow is released.
The term was first used by E.J. Rendtroff in 1913,[1] and as understanding was gained about the arrow flexing out of the way of the bow as it is shot (as first filmed by Clarence Hickman)[2][3] and then experiencing oscillating back-and-forth bending as it travels toward the target,[4] this dynamic flexing has incorrectly become a common usage of the term, causing misunderstanding by those only familiar with modern target bows, which being 'centre shot' do not actually show any paradoxical behaviour as the arrow is always pointing visually along its line of flight.[5][6][7]"
The word paradox actually has nothing to do with bending or flexing. It means a strange happening that does something besides what it looks like it should. Archers paradox means the arrow is pointed one way but goes another. The word has been used and mis-used to describe various happenings when shooting an arrow. It is all good just keep bending those bows. Ken
A fellow in a near by town did some slow mo vids of his own. He found that even with a caliper release the arrow still bends into the bow and then around it if the bow is not center shot. I don't buy that the arrow is pointing to the left and it flies to right, that would take a very soft arrow. When sighting down the arrow an arrow that recovers quickly recovers on the line it was pointed and does hide behind the bow, The argument always turns in to speculative nothing, because an arrow that does go that far left does not fly very nice and is usually considered to be too light a spine.
Fast forward this YouTube video to 2:51 seconds and you will see a close up of archers paradox.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zewtuUM_0
There are lots of myths in archery (and everything else for that matter). I won't go here though because this thread isn't the place.
I like the paradox discussion above. The word was hijacked (long ago) by folks who misunderstood its definition. I'm happy to admit that I understand it better now thanks to Orion and a couple more above.Thanks!
Unrelated to this thread, but last Saturday night I searched the web for a couple of hours trying to find some answers to paper tuning. I expected, even though improperly named, that archer's paradox discussions would help. I believe paper tuning has worked for me for decades, all kinds of bows and fingers and release aids. However, I found NO competent explanation why it should or should not. The paradox for me was that I did this research to "feel better" and ended up with a nice case of vertigo (weird but for real, I was sick for the next 2 days)!
If we remove the archer as a form factor (use a perfectly "formed" archery or a machine) Paper tuning either works or it doesn't. All I found were opinions. Nothing backed up with physics.
I thought I had it for a few moments. That a properly turned set-up allows the fletched end of the arrow to "follow" in sync shaft nodes. But, after looking at several videos that didn't seem to be correct, unless NONE of the videos I viewed involved properly tuned setups.
Archer's Paradox is why we are all here. It's part of the mystery of shooting a Traditional bow and achieving perfect arrow flight. In this world of an answer for everything and immediate gratification, Archer's Paradox keeps us striving for essentially the unattainable. It keeps us going.
The technical definition is what the other guys said.
I'm with Pavan on this. When I shoot, it looks to me that my arrow is pointing directly at the target, not to the left. So the argument that it's pointed left and then corrects to the right in order to hit the target doesn't hold up. If that were true, then all my shots would impact right.
To me, the so-called "archers paradox" speaks more to a properly tuned arrow being able to bend around the riser as it leaves the string and then re-bend to continue on a straight path to the target. The need to bend properly arises from the fact that the string returns to the center of the bow as opposed to following the arrow on its trajectory. An improperly spined arrow will not bend, or oscillate properly in order to achieve the desired clearance of the riser. Too stiff, arrow impacts one way-too weak and it impacts another.
I''m not a physicist or scientist in any shape or form so you can take my opinion for what it's worth.
Pavan, Highlow. Before you draw the arrow it is pointed to the left unless your bow is cut past center. Of course, when you aim it, you line it up with the target. But, in relation to the bow, it is still pointing to the left. The reason you hit what you're shooting at is because the arrow bends around the riser to go where you're pointing it.
The Wikipedia definition sort of describes the phenomenon in reverse, i.e., from full draw, rather than from the arrow's static position on the string. Or maybe my description is in reverse. Regardless, same result.
"The term archer's paradox refers to the phenomenon of an arrow traveling in the direction it is pointed at full draw, when it seems that the arrow would have to pass through the starting position it was in before being drawn, where it was pointed to the side of the target. The bending of the arrow when released is the explanation for why the paradox occurs and should not be confused with the paradox itself. "
Orion. Isn't that what I said?
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
A fellow in a near by town did some slow mo vids of his own. He found that even with a caliper release the arrow still bends into the bow and then around it if the bow is not center shot. I don't buy that the arrow is pointing to the left and it flies to right, that would take a very soft arrow. When sighting down the arrow an arrow that recovers quickly recovers on the line it was pointed and does hide behind the bow, The argument always turns in to speculative nothing, because an arrow that does go that far left does not fly very nice and is usually considered to be too light a spine.
Yup.
With a selfbow, recurve, compound, close to center or way off center, I always point my arrow at the target, not to the right or left. As the drawn arrow comes closer to brace before leaving the string the angle from sight line changes from a sighted arrow to the position of a relaxed string where the point of the arrow is farther away from the bow's centerline. The spine needs to allow the released arrow to bend around that relaxed brace angle to get the arrow to where you point the arrow as drawn and sighted at your anchor point. Your fingers will have a large part of that, or not, depending on your release smoothness.
Muddy or not, if your arrow ain't bending correctly for your setup and release, you will be off left or right of your drawn sightline.
Probably the only thing that would satisfy the majority of the posters on this thread is a slo-mo picture of a perfectly tuned arrow, shot with a release from a bow cut past-center so the arrow is aligned with the string and center of bow.
I would certainly be interested in watching it, but I believe we would still see a flexing of the arrow. All that force on the rear arrow working against the heavy point out front is still going to cause the arrow to bend. It can't bend toward the center of the bow, and can't bend downward because of the shelf. It would probably flex outward, away from the side plate, or upward away from the shelf, or some angle in between. Sure would make an interesting video.
I frequent another sight where there is all kinds of bow shooters. One of them is a wheel bow tuning guru, and those guys swear that a centershot wheel bow with a dropaway rest thst is shot with a relaese will make the arrow bend up and down instead of sideways!
Bisch
Where are the physics professors among our group to definitely answer this question? :laughing:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
I frequent another sight where there is all kinds of bow shooters. One of them is a wheel bow tuning guru, and those guys swear that a centershot wheel bow with a dropaway rest thst is shot with a relaese will make the arrow bend up and down instead of sideways!
Bisch
Here is a video of exactly what Bisch said. You can see no archers paradox, but can absolutely see the arrow flex vertically on the compound bow. The traditional bow, however, you can see the archers paradox (whatever the heck that means now) clearly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfyzL9C-8WY
Does it really matter if you hit what you're aiming at?
I know about archers paradox but don't care to argue the fine points as long as I can hit my target
Bladepeek,
I've done that already with my compound, it does still show the arrow flexing as it travels toward the target but, there is no side plate to bend around since it is being shot off of a drop away rest. The arrow also seems to straighten out or lessen it's flexing faster than my LB. Unfortunately I can't find the camera or the video, sorry, it was done at least 8 years ago.
Guys,
I thing that we are all correct to some extent and to me the person or persons that coined the phrase didn't use a dictionary to look up the meaning, but just needed a word to describe what he was aware of without any way to scientifically prove it.
Archers Paradox relates to all stick bows that are drawn and released with fingers period. Where the point is pointed has nothing to do with the actual phenomenon.
Rick
Finger release, no matter where you arrow is pointed, the string moves left and right after release. Correct brace height is where when the arrow leaves the string it is in the correct position L/R for the arrow to flex properly around the bow. You need correct brace along with spine.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/l/t1.0-9/15590237_1157673270947758_6207984481814383864_n.jpg?oh=e95f21960bdf9548d72a9223afcfe533&oe=58B62935)
Most noticeable with say a bow with no shelf or a very small shelf. Depending which side the arrows is on of course the example is a RH shooter.
When undrawn the entire arrows points to the far left but when fully drawn the arrow straighents out towards the target.
There are 2 "very important bends" that will decide where the arrows goes the first is where the shaft bends into the riser(thats where you have to be very careful not to shoot too underspined arrows because it could bend too much and get stuck behind the riser and break then drop)
It rebounds and goes around the riser. Between these 2 points is why we try to match the best spine for our bows so that the shafts bend the the perfect amount and to straight to the target in relation to what we saw at full draw.
Center shot recurves and longbows still follow the same principle however the paradox is less noticeable because less riser the arrows need to clear. However since the shelf is so deep what would be perfect for say a ASL would show weak for a center show. Thus you need more spine for a center shot. ( hope people understand what I mean there.)
QuoteOriginally posted by longbow fanatic 1:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
I frequent another sight where there is all kinds of bow shooters. One of them is a wheel bow tuning guru, and those guys swear that a centershot wheel bow with a dropaway rest thst is shot with a relaese will make the arrow bend up and down instead of sideways!
Bisch
Here is a video of exactly what Bisch said. You can see no archers paradox, but can absolutely see the arrow flex vertically on the compound bow. The traditional bow, however, you can see the archers paradox (whatever the heck that means now) clearly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfyzL9C-8WY [/b]
It flexes up and down because of the slight vertical force coming from the string.
I'm careful about what I see on you tube. There are lots of helpful videos and also a lot of Idiots who think they know everything. Best video I ever saw was on you tube and it was Byron furgeson explaining it. Doesn't get any better than that
QuoteOriginally posted by highlow:
I'm with Pavan on this. When I shoot, it looks to me that my arrow is pointing directly at the target, not to the left. So the argument that it's pointed left and then corrects to the right in order to hit the target doesn't hold up. If that were true, then all my shots would impact right.
To me, the so-called "archers paradox" speaks more to a properly tuned arrow being able to bend around the riser as it leaves the string and then re-bend to continue on a straight path to the target. The need to bend properly arises from the fact that the string returns to the center of the bow as opposed to following the arrow on its trajectory. An improperly spined arrow will not bend, or oscillate properly in order to achieve the desired clearance of the riser. Too stiff, arrow impacts one way-too weak and it impacts another.
I''m not a physicist or scientist in any shape or form so you can take my opinion for what it's worth.
This :thumbsup:
The Byron video was correct, but pay close attention to what was said. Where those two points line up with that bent arrow that is the line of flight of that arrow. My first target bow, a Black Widow, was not cut past center or negative of center. It was a loaded target bow and I shot it with a Wilson Strap tab. If the paradox was too bring that arrow whipping its way merrily along to the target and if if what some think is that the arrow comes entirely back in line with the path of the limb travel line, the arrow should have disappeared behind the bow. With a peep sight on the string and a very good bow sight, there was no arrow that would fly properly that would shoot so far to the off that it would strike that far right. If that were the case i would have had to drill holes in the riser to accommodate a sight pin, of course they were off to the left with all of the flyable arrows.
This is the most misunderstood and misused concept in archery. Even worse that trying to describe bow length or draw length.
Missed a few posts, but to respond to you Hilow. Nope. It's not what you said. The arrow doesn't correct and go to the right, it bends around the riser to go straight, though it was pointing left of the riser before being drawn.
In relation to the bow and string, the arrow still points to the left on the bow, but in aiming it at the target, you move the bow to the right to align the arrow on the target. The arrow still has to bend around the riser and straighten out to hit the target.
If it bends too much, i.e., the spine is too soft, the arrow will impact to the right. If it doesn't bend enough, i.e., spine too stiff, it will impact left of the target. If it bends just right, it will hit the target.
Grouseshooter, shooting with fingers or not has nothing to do with Archer's paradox. It merely contributes to the flex of the arrow by adding a sideways occilation to the string. Go back and read the original definitions. A paradox is a conundrum. It's an observation that apparently defies explanation, i.e., why does an arrow seemingly pointed to the left when on the bow strike the target when commonsense, observation would suggest it should strike to the left. That's the archer's paradox. The answer to that paradox is, the arrow flexes around the bow to straighten itself out and strike the target.
Physics are physics, and you can't get past them. If you induce thrust directly in line with the plane of the mass of the arrow there will be no flex. Reality is getting that perfect a tune job is very very difficult.
It could be done with a mechanically released shaft and fully center shot bow, either compound or recurve, but I've never seen that level of perfection achieved.
BAK. Of course there will be flex. The physics principle in play here is "objects at rest tend to stay at rest". When the bow string pushes the arrow from the rear, the arrow wants to stay at rest, but it can't. It will be pushed forward. In so doing, the shaft will flex, from the force applied to the rear of the arrow as it tries to overtake the front of the arrow, which doesn't want to move, regardless of the orientation of the string, even if it's in perfect alignment with the arrow.
Easton demonstrated this more than 20 years ago with high speed photography. On compound bows released with triggers on arrows that were perfectly centered on the string, the arrows flexed both side to side and up and down, i.e., fishtailed and porpoised. The amplitude of those movements is dictated by the spine of the arrow, the greater the spine, the less the flexing. Because most wheelie shooters shoot very high carbon spines, and their bows are centershot, there isn't a lot of flexing, but they do flex and it is easily detected with high speed photography.
Conversely, the less the spine, the greater the flexing, to the point of the arrow breaking if the spine is way too light. In fact, the myth that you can't/shouldn't shoot wood arrows out of compounds bows is based on that principle. Folks thought, and some still do, that wood arrows aren't stiff enough to shoot in compound bows. Some may not be, but an appropriately spined wood arrow will shoot out of a compound just as well as any other material.
Of course, now we're getting way off the track.
We had the argument here a few years ago that the arrow bends outside of the bow string line at release because of the fingers rolling the string. With a 96 pound bow that cannot be very much. i told them it first bends in, no one would believe me, but I have the Hill dvds and in slow speed it is obvious. One fellow said fingers cause that. One had access to a very high end camera, from a local college, they tested our bows. my longbows shot with a release all had the inward arrow flex which was obvious at slow speed. It cannot be avoided with a bow that is outside of center. The limbs drive forward the resistance of the arrow at that angle bends the arrow in and by the graces of paradox with the bow as a pivot and spring action of the shaft gets the opposite bend which gets it around the bow. A lesser bend in and an even lesser bend out then the miny waggle to the target. What we found even more interesting was that carbon arrows and aluminums have a waggle all of the way to the target that is greater and more obvious than my wood arrows. I do not know why that is, but my wood arrows settled in and flew without that waggle. My hoyt target bow with its 15and something aluminums were amazing in flight, they vibrated all the way. I don't like to think about that rig when comparing arrows speeds, it was very hard to see the arrows fly out of it. If one could get any hunting arrow out of a longbow going that fast, you would have something.
Sounds reasonable to me pavan. I no longer have the Easton video. We used it when I taught bowhunter education courses. What I do remember is that the string imparted one to two lateral occillations to the back of the arrow before the arrow left the string.
Given that the string would roll to the left (for a right handed shooter) at release, that would create an inward bend of the shaft initially. And, the shaft bends back outward as it clears the riser if it's spined correctly.
Of course, that's why shooting form is also part of the tuning equation. Some folks impart more lateral movement than others. It's the combination of lateral movement at release and arrow spine that determines whether the arrow will clear the bow cleanly.
What we found is that it happens even with a mechanical release with a hill longbow, not a lot different, if at all, from the finger release. Of course, my lightest longbow that I had at that time was a 72 pound Schulz.
Yep, an arrow has to flex. Which way it initially flexes depends on how it's released and its orientation on the bow; how much it flexes depends on its spine, orientation on the bow, method of release, point weight, etc.
To stay on message, it's the flexing of the arrow that explains Archer's paradox. I.e. the paradox is the observation that the arrow flies to the target rather than veering off to the side as one would expect from the orientation of a nocked (or drawn) arrow on a less than centershot bow.
I'm not getting into to this except to say... 1. Read what Orion has written; 2, Paradox is not flexing, it's the difference between where the arrow is pointed at brace and where it hits.
Remember now... flexing/bending is not the paradox of the arrow.
Good luck fella's. Enjoy. 8^)
Many are belaboring the same point but it is very simple. For the difficult ones. Of course you point the arrow at the target but: If the bow string is in the middle of the bow and the bow is not cut to center or doesn't have a sight window at all-- How on earth could the arrow not be pointed left. Physically impossible.Orion and a couple of others have explained it very well,Read his threads again. An arrow flexes no matter how it is set up or released. When 50 or 60 pounds kicks a 5/16" 30" inch stick in the butt it is going to bend. Line your finger up in front of a drawn bow string and see if it bends when the string is released. It is simple unless you just want to argue. Flexing/bending is not paradox. Arrows flex in a spine tester. Paradox/phenomenon is the weird happening of an arrow pointed slightly left that curves around the bow and strikes in line with the bow string. Eastman has been instructing the set up of a bow to have the arrow pointing an arrow width to the left since the beginning of time. Its all fun though. Ken
QuoteOriginally posted by kenneth butler:
If the bow string is in the middle of the bow and the bow is not cut to center or doesn't have a sight window at all-- How on earth could the arrow not be pointed left?
For me that is easy, the bow centerline is actually pointed to the right of the target. We sight with the arrow. Now for me it is to the left, since I am right minded. ;)
If you hit where you look, you have it figured out regardless of verbiage. When you don't, it's your own fault all the time. I am guilty of that, most all the time. :(
Merry Christmas guys and gals. :)
O.K. Bud B. It is still semantics. The arrow is pointed left in RELATION to the bow. Put the bow in a vice the arrow points left if the bow is not center shot. You are right, if you are not able to hold a bow straight,it is your fault, because the bow string is going to try to follow a straight line through the center of the bow. Twisting the bow to the right will cause the string to try to go that way.That is called torque.But that is another subject. Twist the bow until the arrow is pointed at the target and the arrow will come out on an angle/fly side ways because the string is going to try to go straight on the center-line of the bow. It is dealing with small angles but they are there. Jim Casto jr.& Orion are right. Others are hopeless. Put the bow in a shooting machine laser sighted on a target,the arrow is angled left but it will hit "shoot the line" of the bowstring with the right spined arrow. It is still fun. Ken
Awe shucks, you made that laser thing up. You had me up until that one.
Orion is correct.
There are two things happening and although related, they are separate and not the same.
One is an activity (arrow doing its thing upon release) the other is an idea or thought.
Separate the two and it is easy. The paradox is an idea, for my lack of a better word. It is not the flexing etc, just an idea. The arrow points there but yet it goes here !
How is does that ( the action or activity) was also well explained above.
ChuckC
I agree with all of what you are saying except the arrow "must flex". For our purposes that may seem true, but if the force vector is perfectly in line with the center of the full length of the shaft, there would be no flex, only compressive stress within the shaft.
I know, I find it funny how a common thing like that is getting kicked around on all of the forums at the same time. I shoot a bow with no sight window most of the time, it has more paradox that my other bows. The arrow is under my eye and it flies where I shoot it, just like the other bows. Archers got by with out paying all that much attention to it for a very long time. Sure an arrrow flies up and to the left from a visual like HIll said, cant the bow a little and forget about it and the visual effect does not affect you.
BAK, for our purposes, the fact that the arrow must flex is true because the force vector is never perfectly in line with the center of the full length of the shaft. Unlikely to ever attain that situation with a bow or crossbow.
Would be interesting to do some high speed photography with the so called "air bow" that Crossman is now marketing and trying to get into archery seasons. It's an air gun that shoots an "arrow". Compressed air shooting an "arrow" out of a tube. That comes closer than anything yet to placing "the force vector perfectly in line with the full length of the shaft."
Given that an object at rest tends to remain at rest, and given that arrow points weigh considerably more per inch than the shaft, there is still weight on the front of the arrow that the entire arrow needs to get moving. Though there will be compression from the rear, there will also be flexing in the middle of the shaft, unless some material can be made that doesn't bend under stress. That's why I think even the shorter, stiffer bolts used in Crossman's latest contraption would flex, though one would need high speed photography and probably other technology to detect it.
Jerry, I don't think it will be the same because, If I understand the activity correctly, the push goes into the front of the arrow inside the shaft, not pushing from behind. I may be off base on that. I THINK the arrow goes onto a tube that goes into the arrow. i THink..
Folks I think we are getting there. Some of the Nay Sayers are seeing the light or maybe giving up.
Paradox,conundrum,phenomenon, weird un-explained happening. They don't mean flexing/bending. Pavan I didn't make up the laser thing. Could it be that Easton and all the pros have been wrong all along? The arrow doesn't point left the bow points right. How could we have missed that all these years. Merry Christmas Ken
Well, to be truthful, the arrow does point left when it is not pulled back. We aim " down the arrow" so to speak, but that arrow is ~ 28" behind the bow and as the string approaches the bow the angle changes, in some cases a lot.. The lower the brace height, the more it changes. It is not as simple as a simple answer.
The arrow starts going in the direction it was pointed, and it continues that way because of some physics law that is beyond my comprehension. That is where the flexing or squiggly arrow comes in.
The paradox is that it looks like it is pointed there and it goes here instead. The rest is something else.
What I want to know is... how do I remember which way the bare shaft goes vs the feathered shaft when tuning...
CHuckC
Chuck you got it now. If the bare shaft hits left it is too stiff. If it hits right is too weak. If it hits low,lower your nocking point. If it hits high raise the nocking point. I have done a lot of writing on here. Folks may be getting tired of it. If you have more questions about how to weaken or stiffen the spine,or what ever, Feel free to PM me. Ken
Can that go the other way with feathered arrows ?
CHuckC
Sorry I guess I didn't make that plain. To be precise, shoot 2 or 3 bare shafts and 3 fletched shafts. If the bare shafts group to the left of the fletched arrows it is too stiff. If the bare shafts group to the right of the fletched arrows they are too weak. You have to shoot both of the same spine,compare the results and adjust spine as needed. It is not an accuracy thing or where you are hitting,it is a comparison of fletched and bare shafts. When you get the bow and arrows tuned then you work on where you are hitting. Hope that helps. Repeat the test several times. If the bare shafts are not grouping and the fletched shafts are not grouping,it is your shooting and you can't compare the groups. Ken
Thank you Ken
Some one please correct me if I'm wrong.
His explanation is not entirely correct.
The archers paradox does not travel around the longbow as much as he shows with the stick. With a properly tuned arrow the paradox is not that extreme but very slight. When an archer sets on target at full draw his bow arm actually swings on target. As the arrow is released with fingers the arrow spins and only the tip and nock ends flex, the center of the shaft stays on target. The arrow tip does not face in the direction when he is not at full draw. Canting the bow too much can give the illusion an arrow shot with fingers is porpoising when actually fish tailing.
Finger release and the arrow fish tails side to side, with a compound and release aid it porpoises up and down.
Kingstaken, Are you talking about the Ari Bonn sketch. If so I will attempt to explain it. The contact point is near the back third of the arrow. Do you see that if you triple the length of the arrow,extend it way out to the left,how much farther left it will be pointing? Now cut the arrow off right at the rest/contact point.Wow! it is hardly pointing left at all. It is Geometry. Now draw a straight line from the nock through the center of the bow to the target. At the rear they touch. The farther you extend it in front of the bow the farther apart the two lines will be. Soooo when you draw the arrow straight back it is hardly pointing left at all. The angle is reduced to the slight amount the bow or rest is from center. Because the string comes straight back on the upper line not on the angled bottom line. The contact point/rest goes from about one third of the arrow to near the point. One more: lay an arrow on a flat surface put something about the thickness of an arrow shaft under one end. You have a slight angle about like on a bow. Now hold the other end of the shaft down and slowly slide the object toward the other end. Watch the angle change. If you keep going clear to the end you are holding down it will point nearly up at the ceiling. Increasing---decreasing angles they are slight on a bow but they are there. Well I tried. Ken
Bow not cut to center and too stiff an arrow will hit to the left. Too weak will hit to the right because it will bend too far around the sight window. The stiff arrow will deflect off of the sight window causing the hit to the left. This is on a right hand bow.
On a true past center, center of arrow cut you will only have a slight paradox caused by string coming off fingers. With a caliper release none.
The same two arrows with major paradox recovery problems will shoot great with the center of arrow cut. They will also fly better with broadheads and have better speed since energy is not lost in bending the arrow and recoverying the flight. You can also use less fletch. ect ect.
The bow is much easier to tune because most of the actual tuning is hitting exact spine with the not center of arrow cut bow.
The real bow paradox is Paradox Walnut. It is absolutely stunning for risers and veneers.
God bless, Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by Jim Casto Jr:
I'm not getting into to this except to say... 1. Read what Orion has written; 2, Paradox is not flexing, it's the difference between where the arrow is pointed at brace and where it hits.
Remember now... flexing/bending is not the paradox of the arrow.
Good luck fella's. Enjoy. 8^)
x2
OK, so we've moved beyond the definition of Archer's paradox, to how to tune an arrow. Whew, that was hard. :goldtooth:
Well, here is a cool video made by our own Yononindo!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96KGWC0PB6s
Enjoy!
Bisch
I've always loved that video Bisch, thanks for the link.
Well, I'll sum up what I've gotten from this discussion.
1) Archers Paradox is the phenomenon of when the bow/center line of the string is in line with the target, the point of the arrow is pointed to the left of the target, due to the riser/shelf, for a right handed shooter. Stop, end of definition, that IS the Paradox.
2) Everything else is the physics of an arrow being shot and how the archer overcomes that 'Paradox' to hit his spot, in other words, Tuning.
3) That compound shooters don't have Paradox under that definition since they set up for center shot, arrow reaction to the shot is simply Physics.
4) That if you shoot a center shot Trad bow, you also have no Paradox, just Physics, same as a compound.
I have been making the mistake of referring to the Physics as the Paradox itself. Now when asked I'll be able to be accurate by being sure to differentiate the two. This is a good thread, thanks to all who have taken the time to discuss it. :thumbsup:
You got it, Danny. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Yononindo makes my favorite videos,especially the ones with horses. This old one clearly shows the paradoxing, Whoops! I mean flexing of grossly under spined arrows.I think we have all learned a little bit. ChuckC - DannyBows- and I, maybe the most.I definitely learned there are a couple of excellent bowyers and some extremely knowledgeable folks hanging out here. It has been tons of fun. Ken