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By the title one might assume the article is pro bear spray? I don't receive TBM so no option to peruse the article.
I carried bear spray for a few years, but I prefer my .44. When I lived in NW Wyoming, some fishing guides that worked in Yellowstone and Grand Teton carried air horns, and apparently they worked. The bears didn't seems to love noises that loud. My pistol has a factory muzzle-break and is one of the loudest things I've ever heard. The report from a warning shot might scare anything, if not there is a backup plan, although the last thing I want is to shoot and kill a bear for no good reason.
What we need is a single button that resides on the front of the chest. Easy access. Deploying that button immediately sets off two or three loud, obnoxious air horns, a pack of M-80s, shoots pepper spray in all directions, and inflates a backpack worn air mattress (to increase your size) with a very large eye on it.
oh, and immediately dispenses a roll of toilet paper.... cause you might need it ( so might the bear).
I have no experience at all in dealing with Grizzlies, but I would tend to go with a gun, for no reason other than it makes me feel like I can actually do something instead of scream. In my mind, I would not even think of shooting one running at me, but if it touches me I point and shoot. That may be wishful thinking, again, absolutely no experience
CHuckC
Chuck!....had to laugh!
On a slightly more realistic note: I've said 3 things can be combined to create the ultimate bear deterrent...light, noise and pain. Someone should create a handheld device (think flare gun) but it doesn't shoot flares. When the trigger is pulled there is a huge flash of light; a loud concussive blast; and a cloud of capsicum pepper right into the face of a close-range bear.
Come to think of it...might be handy near the front door, too.
Kevin, How much capsicum pepper could one load into a .454 Casull? I'm thinking that might satisfy your 3 things that would be in your handheld device. It would be called "The archer's friend". ;)
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Don't be down wind when deploying the spray.
I have witnessed Grizz going right through a cloud of spray and continue the charge until persuaded differently.
Not sure what the solution is for stopping an attack other than staying out of bear country.
Sounds like good advice.....I don't subscribe.
Personally, I think whatever deterrent you can deploy accurately the fastest is the correct answer.
Plus,I think a guy needs to consider all bear encounters are not created equal....and can be segregated in to 'Curious' and 'Aggressive' with each requiring a different strategy.
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Without knowing a thing about the author I'll still respect his opinions. What's right for one guy isn't necessarily the best answer for everyone. The author's quote: "Fortunately, there is mounting evidence that bear spray alone may be the solution for those who do not want to carry a firearm." is beyond obvious. There isn't much else available for typical bear defense beyond guns or spray.
This is always a great winter topic and sure to produce discussion. I carry spray and a handgun in Alaska. I have yet to hear of anyone spraying a bear effectively while it was attacking them through their tent fabric. I haven't ever seen a bear run away from the noise of spray, but a big handgun blast...yes. No defense with spray until a bear is basically on you, while a firearm can both haze, painfully deter or kill a bear at greater distance. Spray is basically a one-encounter deal. One can...one bear...you're done. Not a big deal unless you have 10 more days to hunt and no additional spray. Firearms offer reload capability and have greater versatility vs spray.
Spray is undoubtedly the only choice for someone with little or no firearms experience. I recall walking the trail to Russian River Falls over a year ago and noticing brownie tracks in the sand. Tourists were bopping along with cameras swinging and a big bottle of spray on their hip belts. I couldn't help but wonder how many of them could have that spray out and deployed in under 4 seconds...the time it takes a bear to cover 50 yards at a run.
Kevin,
I could not agree more with you. I listen to those that have been there and survived to talk about it.
To me a seven second spray is not going to do the trick as well as 6 rounds from my .480.
Also the likelihood of a bear being in camp at night is very high. In that case you may be fighting for your life inside a tent or what's left of it.
We have three .480s in our camp that will at least make a lot of noise.
Mike
My personal observations/experience, based on hunting in the highest concentration of grizzly's in the lower 48 and five trips to Alaska (three moose hunts, one brown bear hunt, and working a summer on Kodiak Island):
• The grizzly's and brown bears in Alaska are considerably more afraid humans than the grizzly's where I hunt in Montana. They are hunted in Alaska, compared to being able to run rampant without any consequences here in Montana. A gun shot, is a dinner bell to the local grizzly's.
• I have been charged on two occasions by grizzly's, both stopped when the first bullet hit the ground in front of the charging bear. The first bear stopped at 6-8 yards, the second at 10-12 yards. One was a sow with cubs behind her. I believe the other was a sow but didn't see any cubs.
• Like Kevin, I carry both pepper spray and a .44 when hunting in Montana. When hunting Alaska, I only carry the .44.
• I have never used the pepper spray, that said I have little faith in it. As previously mentioned, it is a one-shot opportunity with no ability to reload. Spending most a wilderness adventure or hunt in a tree, to avoid a grizzly that keeps returning to your camp is not my idea of a fun time (yes this has happened to others).
• There are numerous documented cases in this region where the grizzly ran through the pepper spray cloud and attacked/mauled the bowhunter/hiker (twice this past year).
• Will a .44 stop a charging grizzly? Yes, a friend killed a charging sow grizzly at two yards with his .44 and then had to use it to keep both of her 1 ½ year old grizzly cubs (150-200#) from attacking him as they followed him during the mile hike back to camp. They never got farther than 75 yards away until he got into camp.
• It is not likely one will kill the grizzly before it reaches him/her. My hope is to deter/stop the bear from attacking with the loud noise of the gun with the first shot. It has worked twice. If it does not stop, I fully expect to be mauled, my hope is to kill it before it kills me.
Being attacked by a grizzly is the risk one must accept when hunting in grizzly country. I know many hunters who will not hunt some of the areas I hunt.
Bears & Protection from the critters – Where I live I am constantly dealing with bears. Both grizzly & blacks bears. Every year I have some kind of encounter with at least one bear. I even had one black bear try to get in my house. I ended up playing paddy cake with him on my picture window but that is another story. What I guess I'm saying is I rather have a gun in my hands then a can of bear spray. Most of the bears I see are heading away from me but one such bear that I happen to have pictures of did not. Him and I had a staring contest for about 7 minutes. At first he didn't want to get off the trail and wouldn't respond to the sounds of my 6 whlr he just kept marching toward me. Finally I just floored the machine and at 22 yards he looked up with the darnest expression on his face. And he got off the trail but started to circle me. Somewhere in that time frame I got off my 6 whlr a stood behind it and with my shot gun ready and my 44 mag revolver out laying on the seat. But I was not going to let this pass without a picture. So when He turned sideways I picked up the camera and when He turned towards me I picked up the SG. Finally he trotted off but at about 60 yards he just had to looked again. It was a picture that I missed but he stood up on his hind legs classic grizzly style and just stared at me. He really hadn't seen a human before is my guess.
I just moved to Montana this year. I heard the story of the guy getting mauled after spraying the bear right in the mouth. I don't think I would feel very safe with only pepper spray. I talked to a good fri no of mine that is very into firearms ans asked what kind of gun I should get. I was thinking 44 or bigger. He said it si very unlikely that you will kill a bear with a pistol with one shot before it gets to you and that with a large handgun getting an accurate second or third shot off is difficult with the recoil. He suggested a Glock 29 sf in 10 mm. It is small and light and can be carried in a retention holster so you don't lose it like my friend did this year with his 44 revolver. The 10mm packs a punch close to a 41 mag but has more shots and is easier to control for follow up shots. It's also a nice daily carry gun. Hope I never have to find out if it is adequate but feel I can put several bullets in it if push comes to shove and hope it hurts it enough to not want to beat me up to bad.
I spent a little time as a teenager up in the Idaho panhandle with my uncle & his family. He would carry a .44 with us on backpacking trips. He carried the .44 and fancied himself pretty competent with it (got expert qualification from the army). He was never all that confident that he could do more than fire a warning shot, piss it off at a distance and then maybe put it down on the charge in with the 5 other rounds. That was his best case scenario but he was watching over 3 kids & a goofy teenager (me). He may have just been hoping to grab the bear's attention away from us should it come to that. To my knowledge, he's never had to fire a round at a bear.
One of my wife's cousins works in AK for their fish & game. They carry shotguns with slugs when doing salmon studies. She's gotten close but still never had to shoot a bear (and she counted salmon carcasses during the spawning season -- high risk, I'd say).
I have been told many times that a pistol is what you use to fight your way to your rifle. All pistol rounds suck (although a .44 may be an exception). I'll take a .223 over a 10mm any day of the week and I'll just say a prayer if I have to rely on either one in grizzly country.
I'll carry bear spray if I must. I'll carry a firearm if I can. People have been living with grizzlies for more years than not -- they're animals, not monsters. But if there's one thing hunting has taught me, it's that death is just part of life. At some point, you just have to accept the risk.
I no longer subscribe but I did for a lot of years.. TBM has published several pieces about bears and backup over the years. The recommendation was generally bear spray or a combination of spray and a pistol unless you were willing to carry a large bore rifle.
No grizz here in NY..lol.. but one of the state parks I hunt has been thick with blackies for years now. So many that a DEC officer went out of his way a couple years ago to wait for me to get back to my truck because I was hunting in an area know to house a territorial 400+ lb black bear that had run a couple hunters out of the woods just days before.
I started to carry bear spray after that just as a precaution. I have to say though that when I practiced with one in my yard it was largely affected by wind. It wasn't a particularly breezy day but I caught enough of it in the face to concern me if I had actually been using it on a bear.
I think I'd be with the guys who advocate for something that goes boom if I ever hunted real bear country.
QuoteOriginally posted by YosemiteSam:
All pistol rounds suck (although a .44 may be an exception). I'll take a .223 over a 10mm any day of the week and I'll just say a prayer if I have to rely on either one in grizzly country.
:biglaugh:
It looks like Kevin Dill just listed about ten situations where pepper spray will fail.
I've been stalked by a mature boar black bear while only armed with a bow, he left seconds before catching an arrow.
I have killed a 8-8.5' coastal brown bear at 10 yards and coming with a .375 H&H Magnum, turning the bear with the first shot is key which gives further opportunity to drop it if needed. The bolt rifle is horribly cumbersome.
I now carry a Glock G20 10mm with 15 @220 grain hardcast for generic areas and a short barreled 458 SOCOM in an AR15 for high incident areas plus trailing and backup with 525 grain hardcast. This carbine is very reasonable to carry vs a bolt rifle. Use it when we 'instigate' bear encounters.
Bear spray? NFW.
Steve H is like me...injury averse, lol. If you'd see the area he lives and hunts in you'd understand why.
Two years ago I solo-hunted eastern Alaska for caribou. I was dropped in by plane along with my gear. Two hours later I had a bbg (big blonde grizzly) walking right to me. I was fairly high on an exposed mountainside and unfortunately the wind was gusting from the bear to me. He had no idea I was there and couldn't smell me. In the face of that stiff wind and the bear coming straight in I would have had to have him at 10' or less before spray would hit him and I would have gotten a disabling dose myself. I put him in excess of 500 and maybe 600 pounds. I finally had no choice but to stand up and confront him in the wide open...and luckily for me he decided to run after a few uncomfortable minutes of stalking around me. There wasn't a tree within 5 miles.
That trip turned into a weather nightmare with the worst winds I've ever endured. The grizz visited my camp one morning in a storm...I was in the tipi. I had the hammer back and ready to blow a hard-cast slug through silnylon if the bear tried to get cute. He didn't. Spray would have been less than useless right then.
I'm not saying a firearm is unequivocally better for everyone in bear defensive situations. But if you were going deep and far into the heart of big bear country for say 2 weeks...alone and no fast way out...and you had to choose between a can of compressed spray and a reliable firearm with 20 rounds of heavy ammo...which would you take?
They sure are wonderfully awesome crewtures but Im glad we dont have them in the places I hike and hunt. Just lots of blackies, which are so much more docile and luckily, more intelligent than the grizz.
If all you carry is bear spray and it doesn't work, it's kind of late to think of a gun.
For me I would carry both, it's better to have it and not need it then.......
Just so everyone is clear on a few points:
1. The author advocates carrying both a firearm and bear spray.
2. The author advocates carrying a shotgun over a pistol for the reason he cites: Trying to STOP a bear while the bear is coming full bore is a task beyond the capabilities of most pistol shooters.
3. The author advocates and provides instructions for bear spray for those who do not want to carry a firearm.
Personally, I carried both a short-barrelled pump shotgun with slugs and bear spray when I lived in Alaska. I was not a bowhunter in those days, being fully occupied with a job and responsibilities as a SAR dog handler. If I am lucky enough to get the chance to hunt there in the future, the shotgun will be in camp and two canisters of spray will be with me in the field, one of these being instantly accessible at all times.
But is there a more honorable way to go out of this life, than by way of the bear, for a bowhunter!
Perhaps not, Preston, but I'd prefer to not make an early exit.
I haven't hunted Alaska much. When I did, bear spray wasn't available. At least I wasn't aware of it. The first time, I carried a pistol gripped sawed off 12 gauge in a sling over my shoulder as back up. The second time, the shotgun stayed in camp, and I had a 44 on my hip, though in truth I didn't have a lot of confidence in it. Figured I'd only get to use it if the bear was already chewing on me.
If I go again, I'll have the same set up, plus a can of bear spray. I've hunted a few times in Montana where grizzlies were present and only carried the bear spray. Much less likely to run into a bear where I was hunting there than in Alaska though.
I hadn't really thought about those situations in which bear spray wasn't likely to work. Some good points made above. From now on, in grizzly bear country, I'll carry both.
I roll my eyes and laugh at the mental image of someone carrying a bow in one had and a long gun in the other while hunting Alaska. A ridiculous sight. I have done it while solo hunting coastal brown bears in flat terrain and that was borderline silly. You need at least one hand to maneuver over terrain and thru brush, many times two, even in the easy stuff. I have a system where I can have my 458 at my side if I were stalking a big bear solo. My buddy Bubba rigged in a tactical style when we filmed and hunted brownies last year and that worked well too. I'll have to see what photos we have and remind myself how to post them here.
Like Walt, I live in some pretty serious bear country here just north of Yellowstone, and its only getting worse (or better, depending on your viewpoint). I don't think anyone can really say how they will react to a grizzly charge. It's fast, and it's scary. Suffice to say, you try and stop it before it gets to you somehow, and then if that fails, you resign yourself to killing the bear or deterring it's aggression before it kills or seriously hurts you first.
I carry both nowdays...a Glock 10mm on a chest holster and spray. 10 years ago, I was more inclined to carry just spray, but these days, less so. I guess my thinking is like Walt and Kevin's...I like the deterent of the first shot and the multiple follow ups if needed.
If you are going to hunt bear country, there is nothing like understanding why bears will attack or charge, and anticipating the situations you are getting yourself into before it happens. As bowhunters, we study our quarry and it's environment, and this is no different. I've spent my whole life hunting and recreating this area here, as well as one trip to Alaska...and haven't had a bad bear experience yet - knock on wood - but I know what to expect and I have no preconceived notions about what can happen. Every year we have numerous bear/human encounters in the area, and it's always sobering, but it's also a testament to the health of the natural world around us, and part of why it's as special a place as it is. Only Alaska and Canada can rival this area.
After all the bear hysteria, I have to say, I still worry more about big cats than bears...something AK does not have! And I have had experiences with them....and I know Walt has too! Just ask him....
I also have a photo of Paul Ladner catching some back spray to the face when he did a trial release of his canister on the last afternoon of our 2015 Kodiak deer hunt. He figured he couldn't take it with him so he might as well have a taste of how well it worked, or didn't work. In hind sight it didn't need to work, I had on my 10mm with 3,300 grains of lead at the ready.
Picture was taken from my tree stand in my Whitetail spot, at the end of October , it was very cold and there was at least 12" of snow on the ground.
I didn't think I needed to pack the spray that morning :scared:
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carry your spray in your hand with the safety tab on..not in your back pack when walking to your spot.
I practice pulling it out of the "holster" i have on my hip just like you would practice pulling a handgun out for a quick draw. Bert lives in Grizz country ..so do I now. If you see cubs..leave the area. if you have the luxury of a partner when you down an animal have him watch while you field dress your game and take your animal out as soon as possible.
This is BBG...the bear that caught me out in the wide open 2 hours into my hike:
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I had this bear about 70 yards from me one day. He followed a group of caribou to a river crossing but opted not to cross. Good thing because I was sitting in the willows on the opposite side with my magnum trained on him. I estimated him at 700 lb easy.
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g13/dillbilly/bigbear.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/user/dillbilly/media/bigbear.jpg.html)
This is the same big chocolate boar caught prowling at night not far from camp. A lot of guys have no idea what's waiting out there, as these big boys are very adept at being ghosts.
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The reality is these big dudes aren't the troublemakers. But it is a wakeup call to see and know they are around. You could bump into one at tight range and be counting on whatever you're packing to dissuade them from rearranging your face.
I've never had a grizz or Brownie charge me....but I have had many hogs charge when cornered by the dogs [back when I used to do hog depredation] I can only think of a few times where I got off more than one shot...and those were usually due to the hog being stunned by the first.
The thing that really shocks the new guys that tagged along is how lightning fast those animals are when they come at you. Bears are no different.
We had a black bear my buddy wounded through the hams leap over a huge log at us in BC...lucky my buddy was a bird hunter..... he shot that bear like it was a flushing pheasant in mid air 10' away with one of the other hunters' plain 3006 bolt gun stoning him.
Point is; you won't have much time, plan and practice accordingly.
I have exactly zero experience with bears, but I have learned a valuable lesson. If in bear country there are no guarantees at all. If I go there, I want both spray and my .44 Mag. Possibly, a rabbit's foot also. This is interesting.
the bottom line with bears..if you surprise one up close and he charges....if your spray is on your hip an in a holster ..or if you carry a gun in a holster..you will not get it out in time before the bear is on you...that is reality..but if you are fortunate enough to get a little warning and have time to unholter..then chances are better.....with a gun most people cannot hit the broadside of a barn under under stressful situations..
if you can use your spray from the holster(no flap covering the button) by carefully making sure the nozzle is forward and you can access the button quick it is a better option because if the bear hits you and it is in your hand it will fly out of it..an elastic holster might keep the spray in your hip for redeployment.. studies have generally proven pepper spray the most effective defense in a truly close encounter with a bear.
I carry mine in my hand when moving in prime bear country at dark or if another situation dictates it..
With respect to trubltrubl's post above...
I agree there are generally two types of bear attacks: the ones you see coming and the ones you don't. Nobody with any type of weapon is fast enough to respond to a sudden rush from a close-range bear they didn't know was around. At that point they're down to survival after impact.
No matter what defense is carried, I suggest you consider creating some type of tether or retractable lanyard for it. That way you can retrieve it if dropped or knocked loose. My primary defense is a 6-shot revolver and it is attached to me by a length of paracord tether. The excess cord is coiled into the holster ahead of the gun, and it easily follows the gun when drawn. It's long enough for me to not be limited when shooting, but the gun...if dropped...would never be more than a few inches away from my reach. The same could be done with a can of spray.
That is a good idea Kevin.
ChuckC
QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin Dill:
The grizz visited my camp one morning in a storm...I was in the tipi. I had the hammer back and ready to blow a hard-cast slug through silnylon if the bear tried to get cute.
:biglaugh:
that sounds dangerous! i had visions of a bullet ricocheting around the inside of the tipi like in a cartoon. no way a bullet will get through kifaru's silnylon!. hahaha :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Other than that bulky revolver, KD has a pretty good fix on things, for a nonresident, lol.
There's just something macho about fanning a sixgun in a bear fight....
;)
Yeah, if it is a 45/70 !
Great read, I was planning on carrying the magnum pepper spray for our upcoming moose hunt.
Not sure of the firearm yet. I like Steve's idea of a 10mm to fit my small hands.
Appreciate the expertise shared. Thanks guys
I carry a .44 Super Blackhawk, but that 10mm sounds like a pretty good option... a lot quicker to handle, and more shots to boot.
TNS, try the G20 SF. Other 10mm available includes Sig and a few 1911s including Dan Wesson and Rock Island Armory.
CC: I use a stock G20 barrel with my hardcast, I'm not shooting a lot of them to lead it up. I have a Lonewolf .40 conversion barrel for the bulk of my practice.
I hear of a lot of people, including AK guides carrying G20s.
Thanks Steve, I was wondering about shooting the hard cast out of mine. I will have to pick up a box and see how they shoot.
I think I understand most advocates of the semi-auto for bear defense like the lower recoil and higher shot capacity offered. I agree with those 2 things...preferred.
I'd probably already be carrying a Glock except I've been brainwashed to understand a .44 mag round is bear-ly adequate in defensive situations with big bears. 454 Casull, .460, .500...that's some real knockdown power.
Buffalo Bore shows heavy 10mm rounds leaving a Glock 20 barrel at about 1325 fps and yielding 650-750 ft/lb of energy.
The heavy .44 mag goes out at basically the same speed but carries 1250 ft/lb energy. That's a lot more impact per accurate round...all things being equal.
I don't argue for or against either round. Is there something I'm unaware of in ballistics for the 10mm? The multi-shot capability is unarguable, but in a one-shot situation is 700 ft/lb enough?
No way that I would carry my 10mm as a defense handgun in grizzly/brown bear country. I understand he allure of lower recoil/high capacity...but, I've seen how fast a griz can cover ground. If he comes at you on the open tundra you may get off multiple shots, but if he comes at you from cover you're only going to get off one maybe two shots.
I am just as accurate with the first shot out of my .454 Casull as I am with my 10mm and almost as fast with my second shot with the .454. Since I'm probably only going to get one or two shots into the bear, I'd rather hit him with the 1500 ft/lbs out of my .454 than the 700 ft/lbs out of my 10mm.
Small correction on my post above. I just checked and I'm getting 1800 ft/lbs of energy out of the load I'm using in my .454 Csull
Just food for thought, and not to disparage the pistoleros out there. I've hunted with handguns during firearms season exclusively for over 25 years with good success....454 in a Freedom Arms and heavy .44 Special in a custom Blackhawk, all open sights, and I shoot alot. And I'm not in bear country save the occasional blackie, but have been around plenty of large beasties intent on mischief. I have little confidence in stopping a bear charge with either gun, would carry both revolver and spray if forced, but if my hide was on the line, give me a quick handling carbine with ghost ring sights every time. I can get off 3 aimed shots with my 356 Winchester (250 gr, 2700 ft-lb) for every one with the 454. And if target is moving? No contest; carbine wins. That said, bullet construction is everything with the handguns...hardcast or Punch bullet for me.
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Well here is one of the ultimate defensive bear-stoppers. It's my Marlin 1895 customized by Wild West Guns. It eats .45-70 ammo and .457 WWG rounds with equal appetite. It's a great gun but for a bowhunter it's use is extremely limited. No way can it be carried (while bowhunting) for quick defense. Great camp gun. Great for going into risky places like carcasses, meat caches and such. Good backup weapon, but not much use if it isn't carried or takes more than 10 seconds to bring into action...if you are carrying a bow and hunting with a backpack. If I somehow knew I was going to have to take on a mean bear, this is 100% the gun I would want. Or maybe Steve H's .458 SOCOM.....
Now you're talkin'...
I'll bet that kicks like a mule.. :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
I'll bet that kicks like a mule.. :)
My wife shoots it with standard .45-70 rounds and she is anything but tough. The ported barrel plus better Pachmayr Decelerator pad helps immensely. It's a puppy until you jump way up in bullet weight and energy.
Ah, I see the ports now, That would help for sure. But like you said, a higher weight bullet and powder load would let ya know it's got's some punch.
I always enjoy following these gun vs spray threads about bear. Now truthfully at this point in my life I'm probably not going to be bowhunting in a grizzly area again. I haven't be practicing with it lately because of that but I used to carry a 460 Smith and Wesson revolver. It puts out some serious energy.My one load has 1900 ft pounds. But I've shot it enough to know that it's a last resort, but I felt that I could deploy it faster and carry easier than a long gun. I wouldn't be leaving it in camp cause it was a pain to drag thought the brush.
I haven't seen the article but would have to agree with what was quoted from the author; my observation has been that folks uncomfortable with firearms generally only carry spray.
I know a couple guys personally that have killed Brown bears with handguns,before they tore them up.
But yeah it's an uncertain proposition with anything less than say a hand grenade.
I only carry if I'm hunting Brown bears or if I figure I'll be near them while working or hunting something else.
For salmon stream surveys it's a 12gauge 870, marine magnum, loaded with Brenneke green slugs. It's what a friend carries also for problem Brown bear calls and he's had to kill a bunch. Even though we all know that Ithaca makes "the best pump goin".
A friend on Kodiak who does the same problem bear stuff carries a BAR in 338,you don't hear about that combo much but its a good one.
I've got a marlin in 45-70 also but that's for hikes, fishing, and leaving in the boat or camp.
When bowhunting I carried a Ruger blackhawk in 41 mag for a long time. The last couple I carried a Glock 20. It carries well, ok power, big trigger guard that allows my trigger finger in well even with my bow shooting glove on, which is important. But mines been problematic. I've got it working now but mentally I can't trust it.
.
Backordered a limited build super blackhawk in 480 (5 shot), it came in about when this thread started. Here's my new hog leg.
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I guide some for Brown bears and interior grizzlies and carry a bolt action in 338. More and more guides are carrying .416 Rugers for coastal bears. It's an impressive cartridge.
I've taken and helped teach a bear safety & shooting class a number of times. The range part involves 12gauge pumps and a bear target that comes at you from 20 yards as fast as the guy on the 4 wheeler at the other end of the tow line can work thru the gears. You try and distract the shooter to add pressure. The gun has an empty chamber and is slung on the shoulder. Even knowing they are going to shoot, after a couple practice trys, maybe 6 or 7 out of 10 shooters get one good round in the target, 1 or 2 get a couple good ones, and maybe 1 or 2 get 3 in the target. Think about it.
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A big 'old bear tree. That's a full size widow.
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You're holding the bow; what's in your wallet (I mean, on your hip)?
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(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh271/chinook907/IMG_1777_zps785w12a6.jpg) (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/chinook907/media/IMG_1777_zps785w12a6.jpg.html)
And that's about as long winded as I get. Sorry about that.
Enjoyed your post Chinook.
"10MM big enough?"
I don't think there is enough data on a 10MM against the big bears...we probably won't know for many years.
I know if I was buying a pistol now for bears it would be the SW329PD in .44mag. That thing is a feather...and it shoots well.
The one essential thing you hear from every charge, "He was on me quick" definitely worth training with your chosen defense weapon.
Fast and accurate can be done....anybody watch the Staged pistol competitions on TV? Those guys can shoot lightning fast and accurate. I know my speeds went way up when drawing and dryfiring twice a week [everyday before going to Kodiak!]...then taking it out to the ranch regularly.
The best advice I've been given on shooting fast and accurate was from Rob Lathum at one of the shows. He says to put a death grip on the gun and practice holding it very tight and steady while you are jerking that trigger. No way to squeeze the trigger in those speed shoots he says....its all about holding the pistol tight, FWIW, It helped me.
cch, oh yeah, I have Underwood, I know Buffalo Bore loads them too but haven't tried any from my gun but my buddy has from his, iirc.
Thanks beendare.
I'm not so much sold on the 10mm as I like the packages it comes in. I'll likely sell my glock 20, and get a sig, Dan wesson, old S&W 1066, or maybe even another glock 20 or 29.
Here's a pic of my 34 year old .41. I'll always have that too. I got the leather holster from Dick McIntyre's Frontier sporting goods in the mid-80's before they closed. A Cordura one I had prior had failed. I think it was Dick that got the St Charles/Fred Bear crowd into the Little Delta country ?
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(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh271/chinook907/rszd002-2.jpg) (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/chinook907/media/rszd002-2.jpg.html)
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Meant to say also, these are just my choices and experiences. Obviously there's more than one right approach.
Where the 10mm shines is I can draw it and have multiple shots out of the barrel before all but the best revolver guy will have cleared leather. They aren't cumbersome. Remember 3000+ grains of lead at the immediate ready. Every hit probably buys you a couple more trigger pulls. An angry little hornet!
Go back and reread K Dill's post on scenarios. It probably ain't going to end well on a surprised bear at super close range unless they choose to bluff charge. Its the other scenarios that we have a smidgeon of control that we are attempting to mitigate!
Of course a carbine or long gun is better but who can truly, effectively hunt with a bow AND carry a long gun? (no one). Well, if I get my act together and remind myself how to use photo bucket, maybe I'll show an exception to my statement.
T-Mac, let me polish your feed ramp for you, I'll get 'er humming!
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g13/dillbilly/P9130114.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/user/dillbilly/media/P9130114.jpg.html)
This proves what a manly man I am. I can sixgun as needed...or I can perfume a bear with capsicum. For those special times, I keep my hands soft and ready with Neutrogena's finest. :saywhat:
No way am I saying what I do is best. Heck...I haven't ever actually had to fully deploy any type of in-hand defense against a bear and I bust my arse to improve on that record every year. My goal is to never find out what works...or doesn't...for me. But if you spend enough time wandering amongst grizzlies, you know the clock is always ticking.
Beendare mentioned the S&W 329PD, and that's my favorite banger. It's light but the recoil is manageable for me. 4" barrel clears the holster nicely and I like the grip better than the semi grips I've used. Mine is set up with Crimson Trace Lasergrips and the laser is dead on at 25'. Lasers are of little use in daylight settings, and probably in sudden attack situations. You'd better be able to use the sights and a bit of cowboy style eye-hand ability is good.
Big thanks to TG mods for letting this thread run. Bear defense is something every traditional bowhunter (who goes into known grizzly country) has to consider and decide on.
This thread included guns and such but it was a very " archery" topic. Thanks guys for discussing this and for allowing it.
I learned something valuable. If I ever go outback in Alaska for Brownies, I want Steve H with his .458 Socor or someone with a .50 Beowulf walking around with me or at least in camp.
Chinook, I've got one of those limited build Super Blackhawks in .454 Casull. If I ever go back to Alaska that's what I'll carry.
Many of us are pretty fair shots on the pistol range, but I strongly suspect that most of us could not, under the pressure of a bear attack, clear leather and score a single hit. I don't have much confidence in being able to deploy the bear spray, either. Guess I don't need to hunt in big bear country.
There really isn't a bear, looking to kill and eat you, behind every tree in Alaska.
I have had numerous, probably dozens of close range bear encounters but the one kind of encounter I haven't had and hope to not have is a charge at close quarters from a bear I bumped into unsuspected.
This scenario is far down on the list of what we are guarding against by carrying a firearm or spray, although some inexperienced bear people might not realize that is the case.
BTW, of my three stickiest bear encounters, two were with black bears, one with a brown.
Ok, I think I figured out Photobucket after a several year hiatus. Here is my .458 SOCOM. Yes it is an "SBR" which means that I have paid an extra tax to BATF to have it shorter than 16" barrel. This one has a 10.5" barrel. I built this in a configuration with a carry handle so that I can hang it on a loose, flat hook on my belt on the right side for pistol-level access.
My intention is NOT to hunt this way and carry it around everywhere, it wouldn't work but to hang it at my side for a the final few yards of stalking a brown bear when I am solo. And yes, I have stalked numerous brown bears while hunting solo, still alive, lol!
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/SteveHohensee/IMG_1181.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/SteveHohensee/media/IMG_1181.jpg.html)
Here is a short and squat 458 SOCOM round with a 525 grain hardcast bullet (means high antimony and tin vs all lead, so that it doesn't mushroom like lead), compared to a .223/5.56mm round.
I'll try and find a photo on this gun hanging at my side.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/SteveHohensee/IMG_1577.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/SteveHohensee/media/IMG_1577.jpg.html)
Keeping it Trad Bowhunting related: Bubba Graves' Kenai brown bear, tracked thru pucker brush with darkness closing in, with me as Operator on the 458S! Luckily the bear made it into the open timber and we spotted it from a buffer.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/SteveHohensee/Bill_BrownBear_2014.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/SteveHohensee/media/Bill_BrownBear_2014.jpg.html)
Bubba last year, two roles, backing me up on a brown bear hunt, and camera man!
Bubba rigged the same 458S with a tactical rig (single point sling) that hangs at the ready close to his body. Learned during OJT in Iragistan. RIP doors....
I will have to give this method a try to see if I can carry this way and not have it get in the way of my bowstring. BTW, no way I would carry this rig for generic hunting in bear country, just for when we intend to "incite" bears.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/SteveHohensee/Operator.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/SteveHohensee/media/Operator.jpg.html)
Do I see more tax money than simply a SBR there ? Nice rig
Yes, Chuck, you are astute and observant! Two x fascist NFA tax.
Good Lord, that 458 shell vs the 223 is huge! I'd be scared to pull the trigger!
Love this thread by the way!
QuoteOriginally posted by Tall Paul:
Good Lord, that 458 shell vs the 223 is huge! I'd be scared to pull the trigger!
Then don't buy a .45-70. That's one in the middle with a .458 on the right.
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g13/dillbilly/223.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/user/dillbilly/media/223.jpg.html)
Holy Crap! LOL!!!