I shot a doe Saturday night, with a 250gr Abowyer Wapiti, a complete pass through. Second deer this season with this head. The first deer left a blood trail that Ray Charles could follow.
The doe Saturday night never spilled one drop! She ran apx. 125 yards, I easily followed her tracks in the snow. I kept anticipating blood on the snow, either from one of the two holes, or at least from her nose.
When I found her, and flip her over, no blood on the snow under her???
I shot her with my A&H longbow, I told Larry Hannify that the arrow went through her so fast it cauterized all the blood vessels! :biglaugh:
Anyone else experience this?
chris <><
Congratulations!!
Seems unusual. I've never heart shot one without having a blood trail. I did shoot an elk one time that did not leave a blood trail, but it was not heart shot. In that case a glob of fat plugged the entrance hole. He went about 100 yards.
Congrats!
First of all, congrats on your doe!
I shot a doe thru the heart yesterday, and I could see blood pouring out of her till she fell over at about 30yds.
That being said, I have shot several deer that did not bleed at all with seemingly great shots that should have bled "like a stuck pig". I use 2 blade heads, and I think if you go thru the leg muscle, that sometimes the muscle and skin get misaligned, and the blood just pools up inside the deer.
These pics are the entry and exit wound of a doe a I shot a few years ago. She only went 40yds or so, but there was no blood on the ground past the impact site, and I had to do a grid search to find her in the thick south Texas brush!
(http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss239/archeryrules/entry_zps8zf4zfvv.jpg) (http://s579.photobucket.com/user/archeryrules/media/entry_zps8zf4zfvv.jpg.html)
(http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss239/archeryrules/exit_zps2zsyga2h.jpg) (http://s579.photobucket.com/user/archeryrules/media/exit_zps2zsyga2h.jpg.html)
Bisch
Don't know the answer, but if your arrow hit the heart and caused it to stop beating, no blood is being pumped.
My son experienced exactly what Bisch is talking about just a few weeks ago on a doe. There was blood at the hit site, no blood trail, but there was some blood under where she laid dead, but not a lot. Arrow exited the leg muscle, and most all of the blood stayed inside her. Right through the center of the heart.
Yep, it's happened to me too many times. This year I perfectly shot, or so I thought, a big doe--no blood trail. Thankfully, I was using my new string tracker. When I opened her up, she was full of blood.
Shot an 8 pt. a few years ago with the same outcome. Saw him drop but not a drop of blood where he ran. As I understand it shooting the heart stops the blood. No BP equals no bleeding. I think it is that simple.
Shooting the hear stops the blood??????
I've never heard of such...NEVER experienced such...
I guess gravity doesn't exist!!!
When it comes to these animals, nothing should surprise us.
Honestly, I think small two blade broadheads are the culprit for poor blood trails in many cases. I've been shooting single bevel two blades for a couple years now and really like them, in most cases I get more of a hole then a slit like the typical to blade but in every case that I have gotten the typical to bleed slit which seems to happen when I hit ribs on the exit I always have gotten very poor blood trails.
In contrast, I shot three blade Wenzel's, snuffers, or four blade Muzzy phantom for about five years and never had a poor blood trail. I didn't get penetration on the shoulder though that's for sure.
I've shot two deer this year which were hit perfectly through the lungs, One of them went 20 yards stopped and stood in one place for about 20 seconds and then keeled over. I got some blood splattered at the shot which was a pass-through and then absolutely nothing on the trail including the place where the deer stood.
The second deer went about 80 to 100 yards with an absolutely perfect shot, I found one drop of blood and about to the 50 yard mark. Again this was a pass-through.
Both of these shots were double long shots but I have had the same experience with two blades on heart shots. I've also had pretty good blood with many two blades and particularly with the single bevel heads..
One thing about heart shots: It depends on where you hit the animal in the heart, remember the heart is a pump, if you hit the ventricle or pressurized side of the pump then lots of blood on the way out to the body. In contrast, if you only hit the intake (Atrium) side of the pump you'll end up with a low pressure pump, kind of the same is trying to suck water out of a straw with an air exposed hole in it?
My early season doe I had no blood until the last 10 yards of the 60 yards she traveled. I was thank full she only went 60 yards and I saw her drop.
I have seen this with both 2 and 3 blade heads. both heart shots
Congrats Chris on a good season
Wow. Fill a zip lock with water, no pump and poke a hole in it, or, poke a hole in your gas tank.
Shocking what you read these days. I guess fake news isn't just only on the main stream media, and I guess years of experience doesn't mater anymore.
Next thing you know folks will be perpetuating the myth that your broadheads don't have to be sharp. Oh wait :banghead:
I heart shot a buck last night and he took an 80 yard run with a spray of blood all the way . I seen blood come out at the impact, we have a lot of snow so trailing is easy when you can see the blood 15 yards in front of you. . I shoot a woodsman and usually get very good blood trails and have seen many times with the small 2 blades no blood and a lost animal even if they were hit good . If the leg is forward at impact and you shoot close to the shoulder the skin will slide over the hole and stop the blood from exiting .
Let's see.... the ONE big rule posted on the first page " Expect to be respected". Guess that only applies to a few.
Go ahead and poke a hole in your gas tank if you want, but if the fuel pump stops so does your car.... and nobody....NOBODY said broadheads don't have to be sharp.
Maybe the arrow did just cauterize the holes...
Agree ChuckC.
Don't think a zip lock or a gas tank has anything to do with a deers anatomy.
We had the same thing happen 20 yrs back on a 6 pt bull elk. My buddy shot it dead center in the heart and there was only two very small drops of blood on the trail. Followed it tracks to a very dead elk 50 yds away. The only thing we could think of is the heart stopped when hit and didn't pump any more blood. There was blood in the chest cavity when we opened it up but not a lot.
Mike
Yep, I've seen it a couple of times on deer I heart shot myself with Snuffers - seems to depend on exactly how the heart is hit - a slice into one of the chambers and it pumps all over - really thru the center - then at times the pump stops, and minimal blood on the ground.
The comparison to a bag of water is faulty - the blood in an animal isn't sloshing around inside a sack of skin - it is contained in the vascular system...it only makes sense, shut off the pump and the vast majority of the liquid in the system stays where it is at. A little will leak out, but given the small amount of time the deer is alive, though he might go a hundred yards in those few seconds, it won't be much.
Saying that a deer will still bleed heavily if the heart isn't pumping is using the same logic that hunters 50 years ago used to justify cutting a deer's throat so it will "bleed out" - remember all the pics of deer hanging on northwoods game poles with slices on the throat?....that logic works fine when butchering a stunned steer where the heart is still pumping when the throat is cut, but not on dead deer with no blood moving through the arteries/veins.
R
Agreed with chuckC
as a pipe fitter, this happens on a regular basis, just cause you cut a pipe in half it doesn't mean the water or any fluid for that mater will come rushing out a lot of the time the pipe will spill very little, we call it air bound and until a second hole which introduces another point for air is introduced very little water will come out. Arterys and veins are basically pipes. Fill a staw with water put you finger over one end and turn upside down now water spills right? Now pull away your finger, empty's pretty quick?....I've seen crazy things with well shot animals, I've seen crazy things will not well shot animals, I think we all have...by the posts thus far seems like it happens and has happened to a few here so let's not nock one another and try to gain a little bit of knowledge from those who have been through it and what might have caused it in their experience ...sorry if I'm out of line.
One thing I've learned is that no two blood trails are ever the same. Even if the shots appear to be. I had a very similar experience to yours this year on a shot that was as close to identical as you can get to a buck I shot in 2014. However the blood trails were complete opposites.
Both the 2014 buck and this years buck were large bodied mature deer, both shot between 12-15 yards, both nearly perfectly broadside, both with a 3 blade 1-1/4" VPA broadhead (shaving sharp), both complete pass throughs, and both through the center of the heart.
The 2014 buck ran about 40 yards and tipped over and it looked like you dumped blood out of a bucket the entire way. The buck this year ran about 70-80 yards without a drop of blood. He then stood still for probably 20 seconds. After about 15 seconds of standing there blood suddenly started pouring out (I was watching through 10 power binos) He got wobbly but regained himself and walked another 40 yards and laid down and died. Once he started bleeding the blood trail looked like the one from 2014 but up until that point there was nothing and he should have died where he stopped the first time which would have meant not a drop of blood between the shot and his death bed.
The only differences were the 2014 buck was shot in KS with a Tall Tines and the 2016 buck in Iowa with a Black Widow. So I've come to the conclusion that either the Tall Tines makes them bleed more or Iowa deer are tougher. ;)
Here are some pics showing how identical the shots were.
2014 Shot Placement
(http://i.imgur.com/s3gv1UN.jpg)
2014 Blood Trail
(http://i.imgur.com/WW2777y.jpg)
2016 Shot Placement
(http://i.imgur.com/fyBGYDU.jpg)
2016 Blood Where Buck Stopped
(http://i.imgur.com/VhDxAcN.jpg)
Love the insight from everyone! Very good info! It appears a "no blood" blood trial, with a what seems like a near perfect shot, is possible.
The doe had a entrance hole very similar to "Bisch'" first picture, but the exit was above and behind the leg.
chris <><
Last year I put a 200 grain wensel woodsman through a doe. It was one of my better shots, straight through the heart. There was a few little drops in snow and light colored grass, but not more then 10 and none bigger than a dime. She went about 40 yards and went down.
I think it matters what part of the heat it hit. Left ventricle of the heart pumps to pulmonary circuit (lungs) and the Right ventricle pumps to systemic circuit (everything else). If the right ventricle is destroyed it will not be able to pump.
Heart shots are great, but getting both lungs and missing the heart high almost ensures a better blood trail because the left ventricle is pumping blood to lungs that have holes through them, thereby creating a blood trail that "Ray Charles could follow"
My dad and I ran into this on a doe early this year.
She was shot with a stinger with bleeders, and somehow she stumbled over 100 yards downhill. There was very little blood.
I was following tiny specs(which we didn't find at all for the first 50 yards) until I looked up and she was 6 feet in front of me.
Michael, the deer in the pics I posted above was shot with a 1 1/2" wide German Kintetic broadhead. That is wide to me. I can't say for sure why it happens, but it does sometimes, even with big wide heads.
And not being disrespectful to anyone, but I don't buy the "no blood because the heart stopped" theory because with every one that I have had with no blood trail, the chest cavity was completely full of blood when you opened it up.
Bisch
Ryan: Way back when you were just a baby I visited with your dad in Ohio. Spent a few days and met Don Assenheimer as well. Your dad told me of a deer that was heart shot and didn't leave any blood. It was he who told me that sometimes the heart, which is a pump, can't pump blood when it is hit. It just stops working. That stops the blood pressure and the animal can run a ways before going down and there can be little or no blood trail. Fortunately they often drop in sight with such a hit.
I think both sides of this "debate" have merit. All the deer I have heart shot left substantial blood trails, and I suppose that has been 20 or so (don't really know).
The "hole in the bag or tank" argument has merit, in my opinion, because the heart and the compartment (body) have been penetrated. While the pump may be effectively stopped, the heart lays low in the body and (the pipes) vascular system can still drain out.
I suppose there may be circumstances related to the location of the penetration, especially considering there are valves in the heart, that may lead to poor or non-existent blood loss from the organ, and therefore, from the body.
I also agree with the theory that "slippage" of the hide in relation to muscle and tissue, might prevent blood from escaping from the body.
But, hey, I'm no expert!!!
I guess I'd love to get a doctors or veterinarian to way in on this. Hahaha way past my understanding of biology but my thoughts now that I've tried to research this: if and that's a big IF due to the amount of nerve endings in the heart that need to be severed to actually stop the heart from beating but if you stop the heart you stop blood flow, yes you will drain some from gravity some plus the blood pressure loss on impact but we all know how fast a whitetail can cover 60-100 yards and with just gravity draining there could be very little left on the ground. I believe this is probably why a lot of the stories above said after impact sight (blood pressure loss) there was very little or no blood to the animal (now gravity draining). There is a reason why they slit throats while the heart still beats. If you slit an animals throat after the heart stops yes you will still get some blood but not as much as if the heart was still beating. I think I'll continue looking in this mostly cause I'm now pretty curious.
Bisch expressed my experience exactly.....
Well, my theory was just that. After looking at a couple dead critters that did not leave a blood trail, that is what I came up with to try to explain it to myself. I really don't know why it happens from time to time, but when it does, it makes me nervous as a cat till I find the dead critter!
Bisch
Well if anyone has experience with animals it's you Bisch hahaha
Some deer seem to have an xtra layer of fat that I believe helps plug up the hole(s)quickly. I had a couple of deer shot with Simmons and Centaurs do the same as smaller width broad heads.
Just an opinion, but I don't think the bag of water idea is even close. The deer is not a bag of water, nor is the heart. The heart holds very little blood, it is all inside probably miles of blood vessels, half of which also have valves of sort as antibackflow devices. It will leak, eventually, but not just pour out. Stop the fuel pump and the car stops. Stop the heart, especially with a hole in it, and blood flow stops.
Hey! back again,
I talked with my local veterinarian and he said if the heart stops pumping pressurized blood flow stops, once the system is opened to the atmosphere (broadhead passing through) pressure will be lost immediately. There will still be some blood loss through artery and heart chambers severed but that will be gravity loss an no wheres near what would be loss if heart continued to beat. This blood loss is much easier to slow with muscles closing up hole or leg moving across holes do to no pressure.
Back to car analogy:
With car running Disconnect the hose going from fuel pump (heart in deer) to gas tank and yes the hose will drain but unless a syphone is created won't empty the gas tank but the car still dies. Now if you where to disconnect the fuel hose between pump and engine the fuel (blood) will continue spraying until tank is empty and car is dead.
I'm finding this very enlightening and look forward to speaking with a doctor next to to cross check information from vet.
Several years ago, I shot a nice 10 pointer right at dark. I shot, the buck took off but stopped, then walked off as if nothing was wrong. So I sat there quiet until it was completely dark. I got down and carefully made my way to the point of impact. I looked & looked and nothing,,,no blood,,,no arrow,,,no sign but the disturbed leaves where the buck launched at the time of the shot. So, not wanting to risk it, I backed out quietly. I made my way home reliving the shot over & over again as we all do in such cases. When I got home and started taking off my hunting clothes I noticed that my boots and lower pant legs was literally covered in blood!! I couldn't believe it because when i was in the darkness of the woods with only a headlamp, I did not see a single sign of blood. It left me puzzled to say the very least. I went back out in the dark with my headlamp to look at my hunting clothes and again, I could not see a thing!! Found out that with certain grades of LED lights turns me color blind. I recovered my buck that night but what a way to find out.
Another time I hit a doe in heavy snow,,,the blood balled up in the snow and froze covering the redness of the blood. I seen the doe go down but most of the blood was covered in snow.
These are my two experiences in such a thing,,not saying who's right or wrong,,just sharing my own experience here.
The "saga" continues....I shot another doe tonight. Using the exact same head, as the one before. Of course resharpened to a riducously sharp edge.
Shot was 11 yards, arrow again was a complete pass through. The doe took three bounds, stopped, looked around, then just laid down, for her final rest. Could not ask for a cleaner kill.
At the spot of impact, there was a little bit of blood on the snow, then again some blood on the 3" tree, that she bumped into right after the shot. This doe only travelled 28 yards, after being shot. Maybe if she went farther, a blood trail would have developed. I would think, b/c the entrance was through the front lung, and arrow exit out the bottom of the back lung. She would have eventually blown blood our her nose.
Also, very little blood on her side or the snow under her??
The first doe this season, had blood everywhere, a double lung hit at 14 yards. She travelled 50 or so yards.
2nd doe, a heart shot, 15 yards shot. No blood. She travelled 150 yards
3rd doe, double lung, 11 yard shot. No blood trail. She travelled 28 yards.
All deer shot with the exact same head??
I guess no two blood trials are the same!
chris <><
Congrats! All's well that ends well!
I think it makes a difference if it is shot from a tree stand or off the ground. tree having a exit hole lower, ground holes are horizontal ad generally higher o the body. just my $.o2 worth
I guess there are a lot of variables and most of us probably don't know what half of them are.
I only shot one this year. 45# bow, Zwickey Eskilite head at about 15 yards. I counted 16 paces to where I founf the arrow.
I hit a little forward of where I aimed. The arrow went in just above the point of the shoulder and exited low on the chest in front of the far leg/shoulder.
The buck staggered just a few steps and went down just a few steps from my stand.
My only interest in the blood trail was curiosity and finding the arrow. It actually took a little while to find the arrow because there was blood everyplace...even places where the deer wasn't. The trees and ground were covered in blood in all directions.
The arrow passed through the front of both lungs and about the front 1/3 or more of both lungs was gone...they were all over the ground and the arrow.
You'd have though I hit that deer with a grenade or something.
That's one reason I was so determined to find the arrow. A few minutes before the buck showed up I heard my neighbor blasting away with a shotgun. Looking at the deer I thought somebody must have shotguned him to death and he somehow ran over here to die. LOL I wasn't going to believe I did it until I found the arrow.
I always thought the double lung shot was a better option over the heart shot,,, my experience was that heart shot deer not only ran further up to 100yds,, a few I tracked where blowing out such a fine spray it was tricky to track I'm talking looking high onto the saplings.
double lung deer seem to drop within 40yds in a normal situation and the blood is nice and frothy much easier to follow.
plus trying to hit that heart I may just hit that shoulder so I'll be looking 2" back and 3" higher on a broadside,,,, I guess quartering away the heart is in the path but I want that lung too!
Hey Chris, I had a similar circumstance a few years back on public land near you. Shot a buck right before dark. Found a few drops of blood a few yards from the shot and then no more. Not a drop. He only went about 70 yards but I didn't find him till the next morning due to lack of blood and thick cover. When I field dressed him I found I had shoot him through the heart. No exit hole on mine though. The arrow backed out and dropped a few yards from the shot. Can't remember what head I was using but it was probably a Magnus 2 blade. If I could pick my shot it would be double lung leaving the heart alone.
Gary
Chris if it works don't fix it buddy! Congrats on a full freezer. I got a doe opening evening with a Simmons Landshark. Shot her right in the good stuff. Very little blood. I mean to where your scouring the ground and finding a drop about every 20 feet. She ran a total of around 50 yards or so. Chris when I found her the exit hole had plugged with fat and debris. She was full of blood as mentioned B4. But...all's well that ends well I guess. No doubting that Venison Chili in January though pal. rat'
Congrats on the doe "Rat"! No blood trail from a Simmons, that's almost a miracle!
Going to be back at for another tonight! Same setup again!
chris <><