Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Ram_n_arrows on November 20, 2016, 06:21:00 PM
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I' started a thread earlier about switching from compound to recurve.
While it peaks my interest, something happened yesterday that may have altered that. My buddy shot a doe at 5 yards on the ground with his compound. He was using a swhacker 2" broadhead, had a complete pass through and the deer ran 20 yards and flopped. Blood bath scene.
My other buddy shot a decent buck last night with his compound. 8 yards away quartering away angle. He hit a little forward and got some shoulder scapula. He is using 2" nap kill zones which are a rear deploying head. He got 8" or so of penetration and we never found his Deer after tracking 300 yards last night and grid searching today.
This has me second guessing the power or recurve. How do they do on shoulder scapula hits ? The shoulder knuckle is about impenetrable from even the fastest compounds so that's not a concern.
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If you want penetration speed has a lot less to do with penetration than weight. Most trad guys are hunting with very heavy arrows compared to compound. I was in the same boat as you when I switched over, if your concerned with penetration issues you may have take a look at the ashby reports here on the main page. Tons of great info regarding penetration.
And to answer your question more directly, I am much more confident in my penetration that I get with my longbow than I was with compound. I haven't had a scapula hit yet (sure it'll happen eventually) but I did spine a buck this year and completely shattered it which I've seen compound guys make the same shot and not actually break the spine.
There is not an animal in North America that a properly tuned 50# bow could not humanly kill imo.
Don't let this turn you away from this, I have gotten more enjoyment out of shooting trad than I could have possibly imagined. Stick with it bud
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First I have to ask, Please tell me your not going to be shooting exspandables?
Tracy
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Well said
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Originally posted by K.S.TRAPPER:
First I have to ask, Please tell me your not going to be shooting exspandables?
Tracy
Lol funny. No, I'm actually looking into the Magnus buzzcuts (shot my first deer with one at 15 years old), or Simmons land shark.
I shoot expandable out of my compound but my bow is greatly tuned and I'm using heavy arrows for the momentum factor.
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Originally posted by Leinsg91:
If you want penetration speed has a lot less to do with penetration than weight. Most trad guys are hunting with very heavy arrows compared to compound. I was in the same boat as you when I switched over, if your concerned with penetration issues you may have take a look at the ashby reports here on the main page. Tons of great info regarding penetration.
And to answer your question more directly, I am much more confident in my penetration that I get with my longbow than I was with compound. I haven't had a scapula hit yet (sure it'll happen eventually) but I did spine a buck this year and completely shattered it which I've seen compound guys make the same shot and not actually break the spine.
There is not an animal in North America that a properly tuned 50# bow could not humanly kill imo.
Don't let this turn you away from this, I have gotten more enjoyment out of shooting trad than I could have possibly imagined. Stick with it bud
I'm well aware using trad gear needs heavy arrows.
How heavy of an hour should I use?
I'm either gunna be using a bear grizzly 50 or 55lb bow. My draw length is about 26.5. I want to be right around 50lbs.
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I also agree with Leinsg91...it's more about weight (and shot placement), than speed.
Frankly, I see a lot of TV guys not getting a pass through with their compounds and I'm guessing it's because they're shooting very light arrows in order to flatten their trajectory.
You'll see that many trad guys use point weights that can meet or exceed 160+ grains--I've got 225 up front and total arrow weight is 500 grains out of a 46 lb recurve. This gives me added kinetic energy, especially at longer distances.
Likewise, like Tracy is pointing out, mechanicals are generally frowned upon by traditional shooters--they rob you of too much KE.
You need a heavy, cut-on-contact, fixed blade broadhead at the business end of a heavy, properly tuned arrow, being shot at game taking into account all ethical decisions, i.e. know the limitations of you and your equipment under specific circumstances.
I shoot the Magnus Snuffer SS and generally get full pass-thru's. When taking on hogs, I'll switch to the 2-blade Stinger with bleeders to combat their thick hides.
Above all, like Leinsg91 stated, enjoy this journey my friend! You won't be disappointed!
-Manolito
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About a 500gr arrow
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I had the same concerns when I switched. Now I use efficient broadheads and enjoy better penetration than most compounds would have with expandables.
If you are concerned with penetration I would recommend a long lean broadhead in of 2 or 3 blade type and stay over 500 grains in arrow weight.
This year I have enjoyed total pass through or two holes on everything...for whitetails I don't think I've ever had a "one hole" scenario
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Don't over think things , trad gear is much more efficient at putting energy into the arrow .
It's also a different game .
Hopefully you will stick with it and you will get confidence in your equipment .
I still run into people that don't think you can kill anything with with trad gear .
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I've shot a few deer in the shoulder. In my experience, the penetration I've had with 56-57 lb recurves shooting arrows between 567-597 grains, has been much better than deer I've shot in the same places with a compound (at much higher weights).
I wouldn't advocate aiming at the shoulder on a deer, but I will say I've never hit one there and not had two holes. Until I started shooting trad, I never understood the value of a heavy arrow.
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Awesome guys. I just want to know my arrow will give me two holes if I do my part.
Typed in some arrow numbers in the dynamic spine calculator.
My bows gunna be a bear grizzly with a 26.5" draw at 50lbs.
How's a Easton axis 500. With a 75gr. Insert at 535 grain finished weight sound?
That's paired with a 165gr. Simmons land shark.
I want a set up that will give me two holes, but also leave good blood.
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That'll punch a nasty wound channel! Go stick one!
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Ok, I knocked both shoulder blades off of the shoulder joint of a deer with a two blade broadhead, 820 grain arrow, traveling at 165 fps.
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If you want some graphic poof of the penetrating ability of traditional equipment zoom in on the buck in this photo. Good pics of this buck can be seen in highlights under Surprise Buck. I shot this buck a few days ago with a longbow and a solid three blade head. Penetrated the right scapula and stuck in the offside leg. He hobbled 10yds and fell over.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/Flatstick/Hunting%202016/IMG_20161115_082548944.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Flatstick/media/Hunting%202016/IMG_20161115_082548944.jpg.html)
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Originally posted by newhouse114:
Ok, I knocked both shoulder blades off of the shoulder joint of a deer with a two blade broadhead, 820 grain arrow, traveling at 165 fps.
Wait! Aren't you a kindred spirit knuckle dragger that shoots 65lb+ bows...? It's not fair to compare performance and show what heavy weight arrows from heavy bows will do.
Everyone knows that will start some dirt slingin'...(typed with tongue planted firmly in cheek and lopsided grin on my goofy face).
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820 grains at 165 is heavy. Like shooting a log through the bow.
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I have tons of arrows and I shoot all around your bows weight range, I have bare shafts, I wish you where closer we'd figure out real quick what your bow likes..
if you can make it to Whitman, Ma. Zan at Traditional Archery Supply can help you too they have an indoor range and many arrows to try its traditional only there. and if you like stingers he also has a huge over stock of stinger two blades brand new for 15.00 a pack.
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Want to really see some disturbing stuff, go on YouTube and watch compound kill shots...video after video with minimal penetration. I've never had only 8" of penetration with recurve or longbow. I also don't aim for the shoulder and take broadside or quartering away shots, so it's not much of an issue.
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I shot clear through both shoulders on my buck last year with a zwickey delta, this year, I did the same thing except the arrow exited through the offside leg because of the angle. Between my broadhead, my steel adapter, weighted insert, and footing, I have close to 225 grains up front on an Easton axis traditional arrow. I'm Shooting close to 49 lbs out of my longbow.
With a razor sharp head and a perfectly tuned arrow, traditional equipment can penetrate just as good, and in some cases better than a compound in my opinion.
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Your 535 gr recipe is probably a good place to start but most importantly tune it to your bow. Once you get good arrow flight and couple that with a 500+ gr arrow your in the deer killing business
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shoot a heavy arrow , period
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Is 535 gr heavy enough ? The spine calculator says it would match perfectly with my set up I intend to buy.
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Hitting the scapula is iffy in my experience. Sometimes you can blow through and other times not get any penetration. I think it has more to do with what reaction of the shot of the particular deer. If it is moving at the shot it is going to be able to absorb more of the hit. Remember that shoulder is held in place by muscle.
Do to this fact I switched to a big 4 blade or big 3 blade head and I back off the shoulder knowing that if I hit liver or back of the lungs I'm going to get a big hole and find the deer easily.
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Originally posted by Ram_n_arrows:
Is 535 gr heavy enough ? The spine calculator says it would match perfectly with my set up I intend to buy.
my arrows are usually 540 to 560 for 48 to 52lb bows,,, Jacob keep in mind the weight is also for quieting the bow and the bow feels more smooth at the release,, if I shoot arrows 450gr i just don't like the way it feels and how it sounds/
speed really isn't a concern at all,, I have a 46# selfbow shooting a 520gr cedar arrow with big banana fletch that an honest guess will say its maybe 150fps and dropping fast! maybe even slower but i have absolutely no concern about speed and penetration cause I know those arrows are bare shaft tuned as best as possible for woodies and they carry very sharp Ace Standards.
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last year with a 50 pound at 26 inch draw Hill style bow and a rather long shot, my 490 grain serrated Hill tipped arrow center cut horizontally through a rib on entry without breaking the rib cut a trough in the back side of the heart and cut half way through a rib on exit, then ricocheted off of an oak sapling snapped the feathered end off into the deep brush. the buck ran 62 paces and went down hard. If you are are worried about penetration put the power in the head you choose. Some years back two compound teens were having a terrible time hitting deer , but not getting penetration and not finding deer. They switched to Hill 140 heads, file sharpened and declared that they a had a magical secret weapon. Can you imagine what they would have declared if they would have gone to Grizzly heads? Since then, they have gotten into the longbow thing and moved west so they hunt big stuff.
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Your set up will kill any deer and most other large game animals on this continent no problem. The key to making any clean kill and I know this gets old, but shot placement really is key. Second to that is an arrow system that is both well built, meaning there are as few weak points as possible and perfect arrow flight.
If you're concerned with your bows performance than look up the Ashby reports and do a search on here for a thread that was posted some time ago "Bh Pics, holes they leave" It was a great thread with a lot of testimony showing the lethality of traditional equipment. I can honestly say though that the first time you arrow a deer with your recurve and the arrow is in the ground on the other side without even slowing down after going through the chest cavity, all doubts will be erased.
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I fought it a long time ... and when people say shoot heavy arrows and 2 blade heads they mean it, its experience talking
get in the 600+ total weight, a stout 2 blade COI head
penetration will follow
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I have only used heavy hardwood arrows and shavin' sharp 2 blade broadheads. This will kill them fast and even from bows under 50 pounds. I did hit one 8 point in the spine with this type of set up, arrow crushed his spine and severed the spinal cord dropping him in his tracks. Friend of mine who hunts with compound frequently calling over the years upset with lost deer that he saw hit square in the chest. Light super fast systems and too high up in the tree making high single holes....not a good thing.
Dan
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here is the best advice I can give regarding penetration with a recurve.
Don't shoot at distances beyond what you are capable of.
Don't shoot at moving deer.
Don't take shot on animals quartering to.
shoot razor sharp heads.
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I like to be a little heavier than that but yes 535 should work with good shot placement
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I 2nd what the man from Rugged SE Minnesota said
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....I agree that the ideal shot is one where the deer isnt moving, but that isn't always going to happen. Bucks coming down the rub lines I hunt over are not always going to stop and work a tree. I think that shooting at a walking deer at close range (under 20 yards) is reasonable and humane. If I were hunting over bait, it might be a more reasonable expectation. My rules are to have shaving sharp 2 blade, heavy very well tuned shaft (I am not satisfied until the bare shafts fly to where I am looking and group with the fletched at 15 yards), no quartering away or questionable shots, and no significant rain or chance of rain so that I don't lose a blood trail.
Dan
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I've been shooting around 45-50# and moderate weight arrows (430-550 gr) the last few years and still have no issues getting consistent pass throughs, even using big Simmons Tree Sharks on a really big buck last year.
The #1 difference between shooting a trad bow and a compound is the broadhead and #2 is shot selection. It doesn't take much energy to put a razor sharp COC two blade through a deer, but it takes a heck of a lot to put an expandable through. It's made worse by the number of guys shooting too far or when the angle is bad.
Sharp Magnus Stingers should make penetration a non-issue!
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We tend to blame the equipment when things don't go as planned. Deer aren't tanks. Don't shoot them in the shoulder would be my first piece of advise.
Good shot placement is the key. If the deer isn't standing in the right position, or close enough, or won't stand still, etc....don't shoot. It's that simple. It won't matter if you are shooting a 1,000 grain arrow from a 150# bow, if you don't hit the vitals you won't get the deer.
I've posted many times about my best friend's daughter who has killed several deer pulling around 25# @ 25" with an arrow that weighed around 400 grains. She put the arrow in the right spot, dead deer. (MS has no minimum draw weight in case anyone was wondering) I think her longest recovery was 65 yds or so.
Practice until you can hit the spot consistently, stick with shots you can make consistently, and go hunting.