Hey guys, I've been reading on here and learning from you guys for several years now but I think this is my first post. I've been hunting with wheelies for probably 20 years but I just picked up trad when I drew in to a trad only hunt three years ago. I fell in love with trad but I'm getting discouraged. I shoot well enough putting 9/10 in the kill done of a 3D target out to 30yds. What's been discouraging is that over the last 3 seasons has been that I've shot 4 deer, all give good initial blood trails only to end with finding only pin head sized drops every 30 yds then nothing. So out of 5 deer shot at ranges from 5 - 30 yds I've only recovered 1. I've NEVER not recovered a deer before with my compound. I got complete pass through a on all but the most recent which was at 34 yards. All were shot with 125gr Magnus Stinger 2 blade carbon arrows total weight 400 gr out of a Samick Sage 55#. I've confirmed at my draw length (26.5") I'm pulling 53# and arrows flying at an average 164fps.
I've read about regular two blades leaving poor trails so I switched to the 190gr Simmons tree shark and 100gr inserts. Shot a doe at 34 yards Saturday and got same story. This time it didn't pass through, never found the arrow and gave up tracking 6.5 hours and 300yds later.
I really, really enjoy trad shooting but I have to be doing something wrong. Even gut shot deer are usually recovered in my experience, so what's happening?
Well I feel your pain, if you read my last thread it's happened to me and others too. As you know it matters not how much penetration you get beyond 8" on a whitetail. Shot placement is key. While I have lost several deer to shots too high above the spine(nonfatal) and 2 deer which were hit in the shoulder/front leg. Until this year I hadn't lost a deer that I shot in the body cavity in 10 years of trad only hunting. That changed this year.
One of the worst body shots you can have with a bow (trad or not) in my oppinion is a low or low and back shot from a treestand. I had 2 run ins with this shot back in my compound days. This shot will bleed well and then just peter out after 200 yards or so. Most deer eventually die from blood loss, depredation, or inability to fight infection or the elements due to blood loss.
Have you had any run ins with this type of shot?
Keep your head up and do what you need to do to ethically hunt. Also, keep in mind you still have the 3 best weeks of hunting ahead of you in Oklahoma so your season if far from over.
Stay within your effective range
Out of curiosity, where do you live in Oklahoma?
If it were me, I would limit my shots to 15 yards and really focus on picking a spot. A deer can move a long ways between the shot and the arrow hitting 35 yards away, especially when the arrow is traveling 164 fps.
It sounds like you are getting plenty of shots and are a good hunter. I bet you will have no problem getting within 15 yards.
Did you get two holes on the deer? Most would probably agree that a 400 grain arrow may be a bit light out of a trad bow at 53#. Your also around 7.5 grains per pound of draw. That's kinda considered way low...its somewhat similar to dry firing your bow. I think most on here would agree 9-10 gpp is better. Some even like more weight than that. (neveremind..you say you get a complete pass through).
Like Michael stated. You don't need a ton of penetration to reach the goodies. But two holes sure makes trailing much easier at times.
Also try to get those heads as sharp as possible.
If you hit them in the right spot the trail should be adequate regardless of the head type. If they even make it out of sight.
Probably a lot of things going on. Most likely you have just been unlucky. I'm a little surprised your bow only dropped 2 pounds with 1 1/2 inch shorter draw but still should be plenty. I think a heavier arrow would be nice especially when you go with the larger broadheads but still I think you have just ran into a streak of bad luck. I'm with Michael, keep your head up and let us know how the rest of the season goes.
Stay after them...learn from mistakes....close shots are better than far shots.....
Tim
Thanks guys. The only trad arrows I can find are Gold Tip traditionals, which are 8.6gpp. To get them to fly well I had to trim to 29". So now with the tree shark and 100gr insert I'm setting around 540gr or so. How do I get heavier arrows. I just spent a lot of money on 340 spins carbons the guy at the archery place said would be good "with that heavy of a broadhead" but even with the 100gr insert they were too stiff. 400's would only gain me 20-30gr total weight unless I leave them a full 32", but that seems really long. I prob do need to do a better job limiting my shots but I hunt mostly public very hunted property and the enjoyment of having my scouting (and prayers) pay off has gotten the best of me.
I wish I knew where my shots were hitting but I only recovered one which was slightly back and hit liver and one lung. Left almost zero blood and we only found her with a grid search.
Thanks for the encouragement, oh, I'm in the OKC area.
First off , welcome to the gang .
I would like to ask , just how long do you wait before trailing the deer after you shoot ?
If you start to soon , that can put them into the next county .
Try and wait at least a half hour before you even move .
a 540 grain arrow is a different story. I though you just had a 400 grain arrow.
540 is more than adequate.
If your having problems determining shot location get some lighted nocks! :)
I know that in the moment things happen fast and memory gets distorted. I always end up questioning my memory. The doe I shot this weekend I had doubts on. Hit her about where I was aiming but started to think I may have hit her too far back. A lighted nock could help.
Are the deer reacting to your shot? if they are dropping too quick your "good hits" can easily become bad hits. You may look in depth at some silencing methods. just spitballing
Also you might consider a string tracker .
Also you may look at this thread...
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=148812
I find that shooting 3d has subconsciously trained me to shoot to far back
Get them close enough to know where your shots are hitting. With that setup and if your heads are sharp you should get 2 holes and a dead deer under 100 yrds. It is easy to doubt equipment when things don't go as planned.
If you are hunting from a stand give the ground a try. You may find that you like the shot angles better.
Thanks for all the encouragement, that's what I needed. You're right Rob, easy to doubt equipment. I just wanted to give you guys a run down and make sure I wasn't doing/using something completely wrong.
That post about vital locations on deer was certainly interest. I usually aim right behind front shoulder. As close to as possible but I try and not ruin as much meat as possible. I also know that when my shots are off, they tend to hit left so I try and stay right. I'm also trying to "aim for the exit wound" which typically puts my aim point about 2-3 ribs from the back. This has always worked well with my wheelie, is this wrong for a trad bow? Also, is my setup likely to result in an ethical kill if shot directly through the front shoulder at <20yds? I've always tried to preserve as much meat as possible by not shooting for front shoulder, but obviously this isn't working.
Depending on the angle I think you want to hit right at the shoulder crease (or slightly behind) for a broadside shot. You're not wasting any meat with a bow (its just a blade!) and can hit into the shoulder muscle without issue (just don't hit the scapula). Next deer you kill take a knife and stab the center of the shoulder right after you find it. You'll be surprised how easy it is to get through if you don't hit a bone.
Theres no difference in killing a deer with a trad bow, a compound, a crossbow, a spear, a knife, blow gun...whatever. They all kill by hemorrhage (bleeding). Cut the important bits and stuff bleeds, then it dies.
If you are in fact hitting deer in the right spot with a sharp head. The trails should be more than adequate, with a good chance of the deer falling in sight.
How are the deer reacting on at your shot? If they don't react then its easy to tell where you hit. If they do react its really easy to misremember.
I would not buy any new arrows right now, I would find a experience tradperson near you and get with him or her. You say your having to aim right sometimes to hit where you want. Something's a mist.
Good luck and keep your head up.
I would love to find someone near me that knows what they're doing, but the only place near me is H&H which is mostly a gun store. The one guy who really shoots trad there recommended a 340 spine cut at 29" and even after watching me shoot bare shaft and hitting WAY knock right he said I was "good". I was silly enough to trust him and off course as soon as I put a broadhead on it flew way left, like 3'. Silly me for trusting and I'm now the proud owner of 6 340s I can't use.
My arrows hit pretty much in line with my bow arm and I use the corner of my mouth as an anchor with three under. It's just when my shots are off they tend to be left. Hopefully I'll get another opportunity Saturday morning and I'll have good things to report.
When I miss i tend to miss left too. Happens when I underdraw and at the release my bow arm moves jumps slightly left. Tends to happen more from a tree stand.
The question is are your misses form or tune related. Can you even tell? Being able to call your misses helps in any shooting sport
:knothead:
You can probably still use the 340's. Start loading up the front end till it shoots straight. There are other things you could do to make it possibly work. I guarantee someone has been there, done that with your set up. I shoot GT Trads 400 and I have 425gr up front drawing 50lbs with a Samick Sage. Also, wait at least 30 minutes before even moving like someone said. Another tip: When I first see a deer and my heart starts pounding I start taking slow, deep breaths to get rid of the shakes. I also tell myself, "That's a dead deer walking." You have to keep a positive mindset.
1.) Limit shot to 18-20 yards max.
After that, the deer reacts to the shot by dropping down and one cannot see that with the naked eye.
2.)I cannot believe that with drawing 26.5" and @53# you would need such a stiff arrow. 400? 340?
For a Samick Recurve, we would add 10# to the draw weight, 5# for fast Flight for a wooden arrow. Arrow length would be 28" BOP.That would require an 68# arrow. 26/deflection of carbon *1.2115= equivalent wooden arrow spine.
So, (26/68)*1.2115= equal carbon deflection required = 0.47 inch.
A 500 spine shaft sounds right (for a 125 grain head). Stu Millers Calculator tells me point weight up to 160 grains to match well. Depends if this bow is cut to center , past center or out of center. Strike plate thickness?
In order to get a shaft heavier, you fill it with braided nylon rope which you glue to the back of the insert. It needs to fit tight into the shaft. Best results if you do this in the first third or maximum in the 2/3 of the front of the arrow (weight tapering). Does do nothing on the spine and allows you to easily gain 100 grains in weight. No heavy insert required.
3.) Shooting from 34 yards is a no-no. No comment on that....
4.) How high is your tree stand?
I bet it is too high which will limit the deadly area on a deer considerably. Together with the longer shots where the deer react will most likely lead to high shots. Lung shots can be seen on the bubbles in the blood on the passed through arrow. If there are no bubbles, you don't get the lungs.
5.) Out of a tree stand you shoot down which will normally lead to high shots. If you bend correctly at the waist, your draw will somewhat shorten. If your arrow is borderline stiff, it will act now stiff= hit left.
The same happens later in the season with thicker clothes on. Your draw will shorten somewhat. A moderate weak or even borderline weak shaft is usually the better choice....
6.)What fletching do you shoot?
Thanks for all the tips. I usually don't start looking for atleast 30-60min, like I said I'm not new to bow hunting, just trad which as I get little bits better I realize more and more how different from compound shooting it is.
I've seen several say to limit shots to less than 20yds. Is this typical for trad. I can hit pretty confidently out to 35+ (In practice) which is why I elected to take the shot. But do trad bows typically have the power to kill at this distance? I'll definitely take the advice and keep them close till I get myself figured out a little better.
Thanks again for all the help.
I know everyone is different but when I'm shooting left I'm not reaching my full draw which throws my bow arm left, and like what was said earlier when you shoot trad from a tree stand if your not bending right you probably won't reach full draw. There is no let off letting you know for sure your at full draw, like the wheelies
And you have to remember at 35 yards with an arrow speed of 163fps your giving that deer over 5/8 of a second to react, which a deer can move A LOT in that time especially with pressured deer. Turns that perfect double lung into something ugly real quick.
Keep at it and try flinging some arrows from a stand and see if something is a miss
I guess I didn't give enough thought to slow travel time of the arrow. I have a tree stand set up in my yard and shoot my 3D from it probably 3-4 sessions per month. Things seem really good but for sure you're right about how much the deer could move in almost a full second. I'll work on my self control and keep shots to <20yds.
The buck I shot at this past weekend was at 28 yards. I was shooting from the woods, to the open, 7-12 mpg wind. He was cruising for does and walking at a decent pace. All the factors for no reaction were there. At the shot he turned inside out. Probably moved over a foot.
The first deer I shot with my recurve was at less then ten yards. A small buck. I shot him as he was walking figuring that he couldn't react as well if he was only standing on 3 legs. He dropped enough that my shot went high and I never found him.
Welcome! Keep your head up and stay positive. Not recovering and animal is a bummer but it happens. You will get lots of help here from very good people on this site. There are many good points made so far so hopefully they will help. Good luck.
Had a pretty good morning this morning. I went out with my daughter and because of that we got out a little late. Only probably 30min before light. She actually did a good job of sneaking in and before we got in stand I grabbed the card out of the trail cam. I brought my tablet so we could check out the pics. I try and keep things interested so she enjoys it. We hadn't even gotten the tablet booted up yet ( after making a loud boot up sound ) we heard the unmistakable sound of atleast two quadrupeds. It was still too dark to see really well but I could barely make out the figures of two deer about 30yds away. They meandered off before daylight and we looked at the trail cam pics. Looked like there was a spike an d two does there about 4 min before we arrived. So I guess we snuck in pretty good. About 45 min later we had another doe sneak in on us. While we were kinda goofing off and being kinda loud actually. She came in and we watched her eat for about 30 min at about 35 yds. So in taking all the great advice here despite her providing me with numerous good shots that were all in excess of 20yds so we let her pass. As she was walking away I tried a doe grunt but she looked back briefly and kept walking. What was really interesting though is at some point while the doe was eating another deer snuck behind us and winded us and started blowing. The doe just looked up, watched the deer run off while still blowing and then just went about her business. So good day, we had a great morning seeing deer and I excersized some self control. Maybe this evening!!
Chad,
You wrote earlier your arrows are flying/hitting stiff and impact on game slightly left, which is consistent with a too stiff arrow.
Too many variables to decode in a series of posts.
Sounds like you strive for best shot placement, but don't want to ruin meat? With a bow?
IT doesn't take much to miss the lungs on a deer, and there are, so, so, many ways to pull a shot.
Angle, broadside, 1/4 away, all have different results with same entry.
Good luck solving the riddle.
I won't speculate on any variance in tune or release..just ain't fair with the limited information.
Sharp and well tuned for consistency wins the game!
Well, to follow a great morning, we had a great evening. Sitting in the stand my daughter (again, she's 8) had the great idea to film our own hunting show. We watch the web show "bow hunt or die" pretty regularly and she wanted to do our own rendition. So after filming several interviews of each other in stand and generally just goofing off... this guy came in
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa182/oobray12/Mobile%20Uploads/A304FADA-34D7-4446-8168-7B7001CE955A.jpg) (http://s201.photobucket.com/user/oobray12/media/Mobile%20Uploads/A304FADA-34D7-4446-8168-7B7001CE955A.jpg.html)
Again, just like the doe he stayed Close to 40 yds. But we got to watch him for probably 30 minutes and my daughter got a good two min video. If I can figure out how to upload it I will.
Whatever you are doing... Sounds like you're doing it right. Good job dad