Trad Gang

Hi guys
I've been out trying to get my first deer with a traditional bow for a long time, but just haven't had the right opportunity. Last night I had a big doe coming in and was getting ready for a shot when I saw that she had a big fawn with her. I elected to pass her, despite her passing broadside at 10 yards from me. After she walked away I was beginning to wonder whether I should have shot or not. What would you guys do? I'm sure the fawn would make it on its own, and I've never seen a doe stick around to protect her fawn. Would you shoot or not?

i use to shoot does with faws or fawn off does in my younger days i guess the older ive got the more ive gotton away from that but you are right to think the yearling would have been fine i guess its up to how you feel about it but for me personally i let them walk

I would have shot the the fawn.  Tasty piece of meat and the doe gets to have fawns again.

Technically meathead is absolutely right, taking a doe fawn is much much easier on the herd numbers than taking a mature doe. I judge based on how old the fawns are mostly, if they look pretty good sized they will have a very good servival rate...not quite that of a mature deer but pretty darn good.

Hunting with traditional gear is a game of opportunity. For the most part, shot possibilities can be sparse and,therefor,must be taken. Given a scenario where I was presented a shot at a doe and yearling together, I would probably choose the yearling for the above mentioned reasons. I learned the hard way early on that passing on a shot opportunity doesn't insure another chance down the road.

Yes, from a 'technically" standpoint, the fawns are much more likely to die during the first year, especially during the winter, than the doe. She is bigger, stronger and smarter about the ways of the world.  As Petersen puts it in his writing, fawns are born to die.  

I hunt public and I don't ever get to see the numbers that some of you speak of.  One or two deer sightings per night of sit is a good stretch !  

While working, I used to take what was given to me because my time was very short and I had many habits that all happened in the fall.  

As a retired fart now, I have held back, but after a life time of taking what comes, it is a struggle every time (in my mind) to let things walk.

It is all in our head of course and the right answer (for you) is the one you currently espouse.

It's your call.  Here in Oklahoma, the Noble foundation did a whitetail deer management project and found in their studies, a fawn had a slightly better survival rate without her mother.  Go figure.  The study doesn't say how old the fawns were when they were put on their own.

I don't shoot fawns, nor the does with them. Since I can no longer eat venison, I have become very picky. Mostly I want a mature buck. Now, you guys that have freezers to fill and families to feed, go for what you think is right.

No problem , shoot the big doe .
Keep in mind , if you shoot a doe that is all alone , you probably didn't see the fawn that was with her .
They are not humans , they have no remorse over each other . If you ever get the chance to see deer after one has been shot , the others will go back to eating as if nothing happened .

I attended a seminar put on by TPWD biologists. This seminar was geared towards rifle hunters, but I did get some info out of it that pertains to your question. The biologist told us that TPWD had done mortality rate studies, and that the mortality rate for fawns without the does (if the doe was taken later that the season opening date)was essentially the same as with the does. The biologist recommended shooting a doe with a fawn as opposed to shooting a lone "doe" that could actually be a nubbin buck mistaken for a doe (remember, I said the seminar was geared towards rifle hunters).

I personally don't worry about it as long as the fawn has lost all its spots and is totally weaned.

Bisch

Shoot whichever one you want and can use. If you are trying to build your local herd (sizable private land) you might choose to let em all go.

The one that presents the best shot is the one I would shoot.  Some might disagree but I've been known to shoot the smaller deer if multiple are present, especially if I have a long way to solo drag.

While deer have been documented to be born every month of the year, the vast majority are born in late spring/early summer. They are fine on their own by the time every deer season opens.

Early in my career I worked a lot of agency deer check stations. I recall seeing a few guys who brought in fawns catch grief from fellow hunters. I always intervened and explained the biological implications to support the hunter who killed the smallish deer. In the north, these smaller deer are among the first to succumb to problems caused by deep snows.

By the way, one of "nature's ways" to disperse the gene pool, is for the Doe to  drive off button bucks (male fawns) in the fall/early winter.  Kill the doe, keep the buck.

Trenton, I've been struggling with the same thing. I have let a few walk this year as well because of fawns being with them.
It comes down to a few things I guess. Your own personal feelings/ethics. Your need to kill/fill the freezer.
In my young days I had a need to kill. I killed my fair share of does that had fawns with them. In most of my cases, the fawns stuck around looking lost and as I aged that started to bother me a bit.
So now I let them walk.

I zero in on the largest deer I have in front of me regardless of what it is.

Ok, thanks guys. I think that if she or another doe comes by and gives me a shot, I'll take it. Obviously I would love to shoot a buck, but there aren't a whole lot of deer up here on public land, and I'm not sure how many opportunities  like that I will get. The only piece of private that I have access to has very few deer, so I'll let does walk there.

QuoteOriginally posted by Red Beastmaster:
I zero in on the largest deer I have in front of me regardless of what it is.

Exactly !

Here in a week or two, the doe will kick her fawn away anyhow when she comes into heat. They wont see each other for the better part of a month.... and maybe never. Id take either deer with a clear conscience. Here, I might shoot them both if I played it right.

Smaller bucks will get a pass but not a doe, no matter if there are fawns or not. To clarify my statement on smaller bucks, in Ohio we are only allowed one buck per year.

Agreed with previous posters about taking the fawn (where legal).  Mortality is very high for the young.  For the vast majority of human history, infant mortality among our own species hovered around 40% (hence the low life expectancy figures prior to modern medicine and penicillin).  Personally, I'd feel much better about taking the fawn than the doe.  Fawns that still need guidance are often unable to join up with another doe.  Sometimes it happens but often, it doesn't and it fails to recognize danger signs or other necessary, learned behaviors needed to survive into adulthood.    The doe will pass on her knowledge of that death to her next fawn and she has already proven her ability to survive.  The fawn still has a lot to learn and only has a coin-flip odds of survival.  Besides, it probably tastes better.

I disagree with the assertion that they don't feel sadness or attachments to each other.  It isn't expressed the same as humans but the "distress" of loss has been documented by biologists.  There's an interesting documentary on Netflix or Amazon about a biologist that spends a couple years living with a mule deer herd in Wyoming.  He gets pretty attached to the herd and is accepted as a satellite member of the herd.  He has a number of interesting observations.  Granted, it's not the most scientific -- anecdotal at best.  But it's certainly a fair dose of evidence in contradiction to the idea that they can't feel distress, loss or attachment.  It doesn't stop me from hunting, though.  All life requires death.  It just highlights our need to take our hunting methods seriously and with reverence.  Sneaking in under a deer's defenses at stick-bow range is about as fair as fair gets in the wild.

I'm in an area that can have very hard winters, hence I would shoot the fawn or yearling as it may not make the winter. That being said I have yet to kill a deer with my bow and will take any deer that gives me a shot. After I get one......then I will get picky. I have been trying for a looooonnnnnggggg time.

She probably had twin fawns, but the button is starting to venture out on his own. So, that means the fawns probably can make it on their own. Also, I have read that other mature does often take in fawns. Finally, you can't beat the quality of meat from a yearling. Have fun!

I am a meat hunter, so I would probably take the fawn over the doe. Fawn is better eating, and as was mentioned, the doe will have a chance with other fawns where the fawn alone may not make it through the winter.

QuoteOriginally posted by Shadowhnter:
Here in a week or two, the doe will kick her fawn away anyhow when she comes into heat. They wont see each other for the better part of a month.... and maybe never. Id take either deer with a clear conscience. Here, I might shoot them both if I played it right.

That's not true, the fawns will get run away from there mothers by the bucks chasing her none stop trying breed her. And usually it's the button bucks that get run off. As soon as she's out of heat she will join back up with her fawn if she can find it and that's around a week to two weeks tops.

The young females ones will hang with the rest of the group normally and the button bucks will get run off and group up with other button and young bucks because there being a pain in the butt, literally.

Seen it, watch it, filmed it to many times to count over the years. IMHO of course    :D

Tracy

Before reading this post I can honestly say I would always shoot the largest doe and never the fawn(with or without spots), but some of these comments have made me think about it a little differently...  

I have a small 30-40 acre tract my father owns that was poached about 7 years ago.  I would see multiple deer every time I went out there whether during hunting season or mid-summer.  The season we caught the poacher I didn't see any deer from the beginning of November until the next season. Seeing a deer then was very rare. He absolutely decimated the population in that area. I haven't shot a doe there since that season.  I have had one doe in particular on camera the past two Septembers that has had twins each year.  The fact this one doe increased the population by 400% all by herself in two years is amazing and therefore I will not shoot her. They have all survived according to trail cam photos.  I'll know it's her because of a distinctly split ear you can see a mile away. Now, if I see her this season, opportunity presents itself, and meat is needed, then I may debate harvesting one of the fawns.  Her chances of being bred and having twins again are great and would give two more deer which would increase the population by 500% by year 3. Even then there's a 90% chance I would let them walk.

I would take neither, I would wait for a dry doe. You can tell the difference by watching them if the have a fawn or not.

First kill your decision, good luck shoot straight!

Tracy

I think it just a personal thing.  I can't bring my self to shoot a doe that has a fawn.  Nothing wrong with it but just not for me.

I had a great opportunity last weekend to take a doe. Then a little bb came in and started nursing on her. She hung around with him for more than a half hour but I just couldn't bring myself to shoot.Next weekend might be different. Oh and my wife said that I better not shoot a Mommy with babies! I would hate to have to tell a lie.

I've orphaned my share of fawns over the years and choose not to do it anymore.  The fawn may be weened and can eat regular food, but it really needs the doe to teach it how to survive, ie find new food sources, make it thru the winter, evade predatorsand watch out for the boogy man hiding in the trees.  If I need to shoot something, I'll take the fawn.  

Altho we tend to use the terms fawn and yearling interchangeably, they are not the same.  A deer is not a yearling until it is a full year old.  Button bucks and the small does will have lost their spots with the change of coats, but they are still fawns.  The yearling doe, now about 1 1/2 years old and likely without a fawn, is high on my "hit list".

Fletcher, well said. I have shot some does, but after 40+ years of bowhunting whitetails, I am pretty much holding out for a mature buck, if I am so fortunate to get the opportunity. I enjoy the meat, but am not really a "meat hunter." Seems as though I enjoy having them at point blank without them knowing it, and letting them walk. Fair chase with a bow, doe or buck either one is a trophy.

Maybe some of us need to attend the Walt Disney hunting tactics and empathy program .
Sponsored by PETA .

Some of us don't feel the need to kill everything we see either  Graps. I could fill all my tags first week of the season if I hunted like that, not much of a challenge there.

I enjoy sitting, watching and learning deer habits patterning them and how they react to different situations instead killing them as soon as there in range. Yes, I love my deer meat have always processed my own but I wait till later in the season when the temps are right and I don't have to worry or rush it to loose meat. Never have shot nannys or fawns no need to around here but that's just me.

Doesn't bother me what other people shoot though.

Tracy

QuoteOriginally posted by Shadowhnter:
Here in a week or two, the doe will kick her fawn away anyhow when she comes into heat. They wont see each other for the better part of a month.... and maybe never. Id take either deer with a clear conscience. Here, I might shoot them both if I played it right.

x2
Almost all our does will have a fawn or two in tow until the Bucks split them up in the rut. I've seen and watched many orphaned fawns survive just fine.
Late summer and early fall, a doe will lead her fawns into fields. By this time, the doe will sit back and let the fawns enter first. Almost like she is willing to sacrifice them.

I don't shoot does with fawns, or the fawns.  Never.  They bring the bucks in.  I will shoot a big ol dry though if shes by herself.

Im just curious.  Big ol drys dont bring bucks in?

:laughing:     :laughing:    :laughing:    :laughing:

Sometimes they dont come into heat when theyre old.  Amything else I need to explain?

It depends on a number of things for me.  First, what is the local population like?  Right now where I hunt we are overpopulated, so some does do need to be taken.  

A big factor for me is the empty space in my freezer.  If I need meat, like I did right away this year, I'll take a doe early.  Otherwise, I would rather wait until later after the rut.  The does are buck bait, and I like having them around.  And hunting does in the late season is about as challenging as bowhunting gets.  

I really don't have a problem taking fawns either, it's just that the meat yield is pretty small, so I normally let them pass.  Although I will certainly admit that when I have taken one the meat quality is as good as it gets!

Usually I only get one possibly 2 opportunities here at deer per year, usually muggled up by other hunters.

I always think I will take the first good chance at any deer but i have been known to pass does and fawns in the past couple years.  Usually I get soft before showtime.

I should probably add that my choice is just that, my choice.  I don't concern myself too much with what someone else shoots.  One of my spots is surrounded by "trophy hunters" and while I don't shoot everything that comes by, if a deer I like offers a great shot, I'm not likely to pass it.  I'm helping out a new bowhunter this season and told him what I tell most, shoot the first deer that offers a good shot.  It's his tag, I'm happy with whatever he fills it with.

It's different down here. In my county I'm allowed 8 skinheads. 8. Plus a buck, plus urban reduction zones in other counties. Plus state park hunts. Plus does in other counties. Given the opportunity, I'd take mama, then the kids.

I saw (the same?) big doe last night with a fawn, and decided to shoot if she gave me a shot. Just like last time, she came in and was passing broadside at 10 yards. I got my bow back about 5 inches when the fawn blew and the doe took off. I was so focused on the spot I wanted to hit that I totally forgot about the fawn. Hunting from the ground sure is tough!

I still have some meat in the freezer from 2 deer last year (wife doesn't eat it) so Wed. night I passed a dry doe, three does with three fawns. The last group of 4 passed giving me perfect shots. The object of my affection did come down the field and jump the fence at dusk followed by another deer but he turned away at dark and I lost sight of him. I figure the does are good lures. I still have a week of rifle hunting left for Sika so I'm not hard up yet.

I usually regret these passed shots later in the season when they seem to disappear.

We don't have that many predators in my neck of the piney woods. Some coyotes and an occasional bobcat but I've watched fawns grow up way more often than not after mom had been in the freezer.

You are going to see yearlings and older fawns with does here in south all the time.  Pretty much if the spots are gone and they are browsing they will be fine if you take momma.  Remember....shooting does is to manage the population that is why they are allowed as they impact it more than bucks.

I have seen spotted fawns into late October here as it stays warm and some get bred in Jan and Feb or later here due to our somewhat mild winters.

If I get a shot and they are close...I try for the largest doe....or a scraggily young buck.

Those older fawns are usually going to survive and will join up with older siblings or other does and their youngsters....

Keith there is a more than good chance she lost her fawn(s) to predators or some accident already and heat may not play into it at all.  A severe winter ( up north) may have affected her pregnancy.  She may have gotten chased by a dog or other predator and is temporarily separated from her fawn. There are lots of reasons why she may not have a fawn at her side at that moment.
ChuckC

I would shoot a doe with a big fawn. Generally by hunting season the fawn can survive without the doe. Later in the season, in areas where the winter climate is harsh I think I'd shoot the fawn because a big doe has a better chance of surviving a severe winter than a fawn.

I spent all last season saying I won't shoot a doe with fawns or the fawns (guess having my first kid got me soft). It's also antler restriction in my area (3pts or more one side). Ended up spending most of my season passing up shots. Biffed an opportunity on an 8pt, and spent several months regretting it. This year I will shoot the first good opportunity,mouth preference for a fawn over a doe, and then I will wait for a buck. Only managed 1 deer last year and it wasn't with the bow.

for me , if the yearling (not a first fall fawn )  will survive without the doe ...I take the doe keeping in mind the biologosts would not have a season for Does unless the numbers are good in the area...

I would never disrespect a person's (legal) decision about what to attempt to take.  

I might not respect their rationale, especially if it is unsound.  I hate to see incorrect information passed on.

There have been a couple big old Does in my past with I.Q.s greater than mine that I was tickled to shoot or attempt to shoot.  By the way, in a couple of those cases I was the unfortunate cuss that educated those Does!

The only deer I've been sure to pass the past several years are small-racked bucks in my 1-buck state.  It gets to the point sometime that I'm disappointed when a walking deer turns out to be a fork or basket-rack 8 instead of a Doe and fawns.

In a growing deer herd, twins of adult Does are the norm rather than the exception.  Triplets are more rare but happen. I remember a Doe in Elkhart Indiana that I passed one year because she had three button bucks.  Probably just chance, but I liked her "contribution".